M.K
Level 55
Haha, I love people who argue their points violently without listening to everyone else
:laughing:
:laughing:
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What Sakurai is Doing: An Essay Regarding the Possibilty of Multi-Dimensional Tiers
Prelude: I'd like it to be known that I do not fully agree with sakurai and what he's doing but this is what I see him to be doing.
...
for that matter, should this center of mass be called a "tier value"?
UH OHHHHHHH WATCH OUT BOYS AND GIRLS THE WOLVES ARE COMIN OUT TONIGHT!!!!!!!!!
Look out, 5150. I'm not so nice, and I don't take a snotty attitude very well!
not necessarily. you are just limiting your view to melee. im talking about in general situations power is supposed to trump speed. its an opinion onhow i think sakurai wants his game.Sadly, you're wrong. Speed is generally inclined to win against everything, because power is slow, and fast characters can induce flinch frames in slow characters' slow attacks. It's a very unbalanced system, I was hoping super armor would solve this problem but it seems to be barely utilized. Not impressed, Sakurai.
first off, i fixed my 3d problem. i was subconsciously thinking that it would use negative values instead of only positive values.This is two dimensional. Triangles have three SIDES, not DIMENSIONS.
Balance is not as simple as 1, 2, 3. You cannot balance a game with numbers, there are so many other things you need to factor in, such as whether the lag comes BEFORE or AFTER an attack, the range of a move, the maneuverability of the character during the attack (why Sheik and Marth's dash attacks are so valuable), whether the attack is a projectile, how BIG (and therefore how easily dodged, Sheik's needles count as "big" when grouped together) the projectile is, how MANY projectiles a character has, the effectiveness of recovery (which can also be broken down into how far it goes horizontally, vertically, how fast, and overall usefulness can be generated from knowledge of how much time the character will have to fall towards the stage before being in a workable recovery position, meaning how vulnerable to edge guarding they are during this time, invincibility frames, whether it is an attack or defensive, how hard it is to hit through [priority]) and then you have to factor in priority on projectiles...
The list goes on and on and on and on, and you cannot expect to fully understand the complexity of balancing a fighting game if you can simply sum it up as a triangle. Trust me, as a game designer, I know this. There are WAY more units that need to be considered than just power, speed and "control".
That said, an interesting theory. Oversimplified maybe, but interesting.
EDIT: I forgot weight. Not all power characters are heavier, for example Captain Falcon is actually the heaviest character in SSB: Melee, requiring 102% to kill off the top of Final Destination.
fox's uair can kill at 90 near the ground on some stages and as low as 50-60 near the top. i think thats fair to say it's a kill move and is good enough to be used otherwise but it's primary purpose is to kill and rack massive damage in fast hits*uairs a Marth*
He survived, but went into the air! I'll give it another shot! Surely he'll die as you say.
Let's put metagame aside. Fox's moveset heavily implies that he was at least partially meant to juggle.
actually no because you can measure the color of the sky, dimwit. you still are spouting your opinion as if it is better than mine, which it CLEARLY isn't.While the reason for Shiek is definitely subjective, so is the colour of the sky.
You can say that it's green all you want, but general conjecture speaks otherwise.
You can ask ANYONE as to why Shiek was made a transformation of Zelda, even Sakurai, and I can't imagine anyone but you explaining that she is there to be a "control character."
that would not be "quantified".Oh, and by the way, what Sakurai is doing can be quantified very easily. Ask Sakurai.
so this is what i love. i get accused of elitism, but then **** like this happens? and for what, because he doesnt agree with many of the viewpoints i have? so ironic its ridiculous.The fact that I don't believe you, and that I was increasingly skeptical of you as I read your posts, shows at least SOME lack of credibility in your blood. That is a fact.
i did not "make up" anything. everything i posted is common knowledge to people who know this game and 64. it's honestly just you *****ing about how i didnt baby you, and i dont have time for that.I have a grip on the design of video games, and their mechanics. You could say that I "get them". You just made up a term and expected people to understand it. I reckon Shiek is a Vague character. If you don't get it, I think I'll need to spell out my next post in red for you.
~ Zanda
ggLol @ 2d triangle.
You shouldn't write video game "essays" during math class.
ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".While reading through the whole thread (the concept interests me),
I've come to the conclusion:
You = ***-hole.
Your facts need straightening.
Wavedashing is not "a heavy removal of technical aspects of the game". You can still tech, and fastfall cancel, and even shine cancel, but these techniques do not make up the advanced player's Smash Bros. metagame. Smash is deeper than that, it's about mindgaming your opponent and getting attacks in during their lag, and then predicting their DI to implement combos. This core aspect was not removed from Brawl, according to players of the demo. Peach can still wavedash using DJC anyway, as a new momentum system requiring aerials to be performed can achieve similar effects to wavelanding.
Again, straighten your facts. Wavedash is an unintentional reaction of the game's engine, Sakurai did NOT program "if land while airdodging (wavedash);", he programmed an equivalent of "if land with _x momentum (apply friction //i.e. _xmomentum *= 0.5 or --)". You can prove this with the performing of "whiffed" and "perfect" wavedashing. Wavedashing IS a glitch. That being said, I am rather saddened by its removal.
Less technical like what exactly?
Since ****ing when!? You're really starting to irritate me now. B grade for English at best.
I'd define "control" as "Pikachu's upB > Ike's upB" or "Link's upB > Mario's upB". Your character's range has got NOTHING to do with how well they "control". Ganondorf "controls" badly in melee, because it's hard to get around the stage with him when you aren't attacking and can't stop moving during his faster attacks, yet he has FAR from the worst "range". Again with this blatant oversimplification.
Then again, "control" can ALSO be linked to speed. Yet "speed" to n00bs, can also equal frequent self destructs, leading to a reduced "control" value.
Therefore your "control" value means nothing, and is a poorly argued use of a variable.
It's much too vague, and also very dependent on the skill of the player. While speed and power can be expressed as numbers, I do not condone the expression of "control" as a number. "X amount of 'control points' LULULUL"
like i said, its gg. broomers aint got NOTHING on me.....Dr. 5150?
In terms of CONTROL, Pikachu's upB is better than Ike's, because you have more CONTROL.ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".
see i shouldnt be responding but control doesnt mean using the actual control stick. if you cant figure that out then im sry, you could maybe aim someone about it but i wouldnt embarrass yourself anymore.In terms of CONTROL, Pikachu's upB is better than Ike's, because you have more CONTROL.
Is it really that hard to understand?
It isn't about actually using the control stick, it's about manouverability in general, but then again Ike is a bad example because he doesn't have that much control.see i shouldnt be responding but control doesnt mean using the actual control stick. if you cant figure that out then im sry, you could maybe aim someone about it but i wouldnt embarrass yourself anymore.
It's not so simple though, Smash isn't the sort of thing you can predict down to a fine art.and your reference of lag BEFORE or AFTER both falls under speed category, like i said before its a generalization.
Irony alert.your ignorance fouls this thread.
Geez, stop being so muleheaded. I hope you get warned by a mod for having such a poor temper and flaming so much.see i shouldnt be responding but control doesnt mean using the actual control stick. if you cant figure that out then im sry, you could maybe aim someone about it but i wouldnt embarrass yourself anymore.
no you dont. but ill help. "control" is referring to a character type that focuses on CONTROLLING the match. the best way to do this is through range and grabs, so someone like marth. speed can HELP control but you have to have control moves, like a shine, in order to be able to control a match. so it is diff than speed and power.It isn't about actually using the control stick, it's about manouverability in general, but then again Ike is a bad example because he doesn't have that much control.
And before you say something about how I'm a ****** or something for confusing control with speed, Link has more control in his upB than Ike, but it's definitely slower.
And you define "control" as how good a character's throws are? I don't get it.
OhOHhHh gUd1!!!Irony alert.
see you just shouldnt post, becasue you obviously have not played the game long enough to know. i really wish this site had some sort of test to see if people should have an account or lurk moar like you should.Geez, stop being so muleheaded. I hope you get warned by a mod for having such a poor temper and flaming so much.
I don't think it's really even debatable. How can you say that Pikachu's Up B does NOT have more control than Ikes up B? Since when is the word "Control" yours to define? You have more control over your position, and thus the playspace, when using quick attack, and you have almost none with Ike's Aether. What's your problem?
ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".
ROOOOFLLLLLLwarios gonna have super low control cause you can't control him very well while riding his super fast bike
I can almost guarentee that you've played about as much Brawl as me, that IS the game we're discussing, right? Instead of qualifying your arguments, you just flame. You are a poor arguer and debater because you HAVE no arguement, just lfames.see you just shouldnt post, becasue you obviously have not played the game long enough to know. i really wish this site had some sort of test to see if people should have an account or lurk moar like you should.
Oh, just leave it alone already. More than half this thread is just trying to start an arguement anyway.I can almost guarentee that you've played about as much Brawl as me, that IS the game we're discussing, right? Instead of qualifying your arguments, you just flame. You are a poor arguer and debater because you HAVE no arguement, just lfames.
That's why it's so much funOh, just leave it alone already. More than half this thread is just trying to start an arguement anyway.
#1 if you ask 50 people it depends on who you are asking. if you asked intelligent people from say the mw board the answer would probably be what it really is. if you ask 50 brawl disc people you'll get "IKE IS EASIER THAN PIKACHU".[ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".]
The dude is telling you what his definition of a control character. It is not a precise term, you did not explain it at all, and if you ask fifty people here on the boards you would get fifty different answers. It is not like it is a standard term the pros use, stop pretending that it is.
At any rate, your entire essay takes astounding leaps of faith in its foundation before trying to leap into some form of rational higher thinking. It is simplistic, lacks any backing, and subjective to the point of useless. For example, what type of character is Captain Falcon, speed or power? He runs and jumps fast, but it is easy to see that the designers were trying to give him powerful, laggy moves. His own trophy states this. So which of the three does he counter? Where does Mario fit in all this, or really any character?
you are trying to deal with my essay as if it isn't a viewpoint. READ TITLE THX.I can almost guarentee that you've played about as much Brawl as me, that IS the game we're discussing, right? Instead of qualifying your arguments, you just flame. You are a poor arguer and debater because you HAVE no arguement, just lfames.
Thanks for explaining that in your first postno you dont. but ill help. "control" is referring to a character type that focuses on CONTROLLING the match. the best way to do this is through range and grabs, so someone like marth. speed can HELP control but you have to have control moves, like a shine, in order to be able to control a match. so it is diff than speed and power.
I wouldn't mind it if my Brawl disk said 'Brawl' on it, in big red letters. I mean, what if I get it mixed up with some of my other games? What will I do then!? I mean, I can assume that I'll be able to instantly recognize it, I'm not sure why I do, but I'm assuming that I'll just be able to "recognize it" among my other games (all of which are labeled for those fools who can't tell their games apart).lastly, and to finish this post, i didnt spell out control because this post i assumed, and i dont know why i did, but i assumed people who "got it" would be reading this. apparently brawl disc needs things spelled out in big red letters for it to click.
Maybe you should read the thread, it might turn out that you're not getting it at allIntresting theory and I agree. Most people have given kirby and bowser more praise because everyone elses aspects were mained to there types, wait, is this what you mean?
i stupidly thought that i wouldnt need to. but htis is brawl disc, what can u do?Thanks for explaining that in your first post
Maybe you shouldn't assume everyone's been smoking the same thing as you, perhaps we can't see into your mind. Because to me (and probably a few others), you poorly defined "control".
see THIS is why i dont post. he doesnt even know what brawl disc is. ITS BRAWL DISCUSSION YOU 13 YR OLD.By "control character" I figured he was refering to those characters that excel at influencing where an opponent will be or where he cannot go. Prime examples would be teleporters, long-reach characters, or projectile spammers (like Cable from Marvel vs. Capcom, Urien from Street Fighter III, Marth from Melee, etc.). Controlling your opponent can be crippling, if only psychologically.
I wouldn't mind it if my Brawl disk said 'Brawl' on it, in big red letters. I mean, what if I get it mixed up with some of my other games? What will I do then!? I mean, I can assume that I'll be able to instantly recognize it, I'm not sure why I do, but I'm assuming that I'll just be able to "recognize it" among my other games (all of which are labeled for those fools who can't tell their games apart).
#1 name these "major" tournamentsOh, Mario is pos? Last I checked he was fairly high on the tier list and winning some pretty major tournaments. I suppose it is not like that matters…
longer freeze frames = super easy wobbling. IMHO he is prob gonna get banned if that holds true.Why do you believe Ice Climbers will be high tier? I understand you saying Peach but I think the Ice Climbers will remain middle tier. As for what melee was supposed to be, I have the same feeling.
Stop acting as if anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid!i stupidly thought that i wouldnt need to. but htis is brawl disc, what can u do?
you get it, but i disagree about the less technical, i think its a negative thing. but thank GOD you actually got the post.Good show! I don't know why people are complainig Brawl is less technical. Technical things were wavedashing which was actually a glitch. It was an accident and it ruined the balance of the game. L canceling was made automatic, that makes the game more fluid. It was pretty silly if you ask me to press a button after an aerial to reduce lag.
Strategy is playing a higher role in Brawl's gameplay, and that's awesome!
so 2 ******* had an aim convo, congrats.Stop acting as if anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid!
The word "control" could be interpreted both the way I assumed, AND the way you assumed!
It doesn't mean that because I didn't think of your way first I'm stupid!
----
TaroNuke said:
"3 types, speed, power and control"
TaroNuke said:
he didn't even define control
TaroNuke said:
what do YOU assume control is?
BlasterBoy says:
Well, I said how easy you can operate a character to their full potential
TaroNuke says:
...elaborate
BlasterBoy says:
Ok, in 64 and Melee, Captain Falcon is pretty quick
BlasterBoy says:
If you're not good at controlling his speed, you might end up killing yourself.
TaroNuke says:
so that's how you defined control
BlasterBoy says:
uhh
TaroNuke says:
well, the guy (5150) called me a ****** for thinking like that
----
You really deserve a warning. You don't own the word "control". Your "talk about my views and definitions when I haven't even described them properly" attitude is tiresome.so 2 ******* had an aim convo, congrats.
O_o; vvvvv5150 said:so 2 ******* had an aim convo, congrats.
Stop acting as if anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid!
The word "control" could be interpreted both the way I assumed, AND the way you assumed!
It doesn't mean that because I didn't think of your way first I'm stupid!
thanks for your reply, but i respectfully will tell you you dont know what you are talking about. you are an upb link. end of discussion.u make some good points "fiveonefiveoh" but overall ur logic is flawed
i must say u don't really know what makes a charcter 'control'
like for example i play a control style link cause i confuse my opponents w/projectiles and then i go for the spin attack kill but my bro plays a fast link that uses his kick attacks and sword swipes more
also calm down dude, geez, u dont need 2 flame people just cuz they express a different opinion, most of them understand it better than u anyway
It seems unlikely that wobbling will return in any form. Very likely some adjustment to the ice climber's grab game (like preventing one IC from tilting while the other is grabbing) will be implemented.
This has been an interesting read that has shed some light on possible ways characters are created in relation to each other and I thank you for writing this and putting it up.