What Sakurai is Doing: An Essay Regarding the Possibilty of Multi-Dimensional Tiers

[5150]

That's interesting that you should say that. 5150's attitude is the very crux of why people don't want to listen to him, as you yourself just brought out! Your civil tone and good punctuation goes a long way to making you easier to read and understand.

Using "exclusive" terminology, that only accessible to people of the "competitive" scene without clarification is part of the problem. He flames people that can't somehow grasp his definition on "control" when he does nothing to clarify the situation.

Basically I'm just trying to point out what you already did. 5150's rude attitude and sheer lack of respect for anyone who doesn't have his "innate" knowledge of the scene is pretty shameful and counterproductive to good conversation.

Like you said, this topic would have fared much better if someone else had made it and was discussing it. I'm surprised no one has locked it and/or warned 5150 because of the sheer amount of NEEDLESS flaming he does.

listen, if you have a problem with me do it in pm's or w/e. i mean ya i'll ignore them and im not gonna change a bit, but dont do it in a thread. that's childish rofl.

like i said before. this aint your daddy day care so pick up your bottles and man up.

 

[Replacement100]

replacement100: refer to 56k's post

If that was meant to be a reference to that whole "I don't have time" thing, then good call - I'll give you that one.

Anyway, well since there's not much to argue about, seeing as though you've defined control, and your examples are yours, I must say that you have a good little system there. Though, like others have said, we would have to mind any values - as they are too hard to measure (you couldn't derive a character's speed down to a single numeral... or at least I doubt you could).
However, I think the most remarkable thing about your graph is that it can also reflect the properties of an attack.

Speed could reflect execution time and lag,
Power could reflect flinching and damage.
Control would likely reflect range, priority and knockback.

Perhaps knockback could be in both Power and Control.

Also, could recovery be integrated into this graph, or is recovery not as significant when it comes to tiers?

 

[Kittah4]

If I warned 5150 I'd also have to warn everyone's horde of flaming against him as well. So unless you want a 6 point ban for spamming and antagonizing him, I'd just take this as a lesson learned :-P. You may dislike 5150, and hate how he talks down to people, but you are no better by flaming him. He wanted an intellgent debate (which is silly cause this is the Brawl discussion XD) and he was simply trying to keep people discussing the topic and not about tiers existing or not.

If you could point out where I directly insulted 5150's intelligence or called him harsh names (ie ****** like he himself is throwing around), then yeah I'd accept a ban if he got one too. I guess if you can call my indirectly calling him a hypocrite for praising SamuraiPanda's thread and flaming Card flaming. But I'll leave well enough alone and leave the thread.

Though I gotta say I'm left with more questions than answers. (What on earth is "qqing"?)

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

@5150: Wow... just wow. It's amazing how so many people hate you and let that bias corrupt the thread. Honestly, if you sent me this post and told to post it, we'd see a much different reaction to how people took it.

I didn't KNOW 5150 before this thread. If you posted it, Mookie, and I didn't understand it, YOU WOULDN'T CALL ME A ******, YOU'D EXPLAIN IT PROPERLY THE FIRST TIME YOU CAN!

I didn't get what he meant by "control", I didn't know he menat control as in controlling the game, I thought he meant control over what your character does, i.e. movement during upB, especially since he's talking about the CHARACTERS.

He called me a ******.

I did not call him stupid ONCE because I didn't understand it, I merely told him to stop acting like everyone who doesn't get what he's talking about IS stupid! He brings the hate on himself but not explaining where an explanation is due, and calls everyone ignorant because they can't see his point!

If someone was on fire, and asking for the water, 5150 would douse them in kerosine because they couldn't see where the water is! This kind of this STARTS arguments, not resolves them.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Well, Falco's recovery is like balls on a blanket(what ever that means), so I wouldn't put recovery as a HUGE deal for Tiers.

I mean, look at Mewtwo >.<!

Also, I think SAF(Super Armor Frames, like Ike's) should be included in Power.
-DD

 

[Deleted member]

At the very beginning your generalizations about Smash 64 made your thread not worth reading, a waste of my time. Just as I'm sure you'll consider this comment.

 

[Magically Enhanced Hobo]

I must admit I like the direction you're going in.

Like you said, I think in Melee, Sakurai was afraid of having a control or speed character(like Fox) with no finishing moves. Now in theory, I agree with him that this is a bad idea, because Fox could run around you all he wants, and chip away at you until you're at 500%, but if he can't finish you then he can't win any matches. Obviously, Meta Knight is living proof that he has changed his mind with Brawl, but we'll have to play more than a 2 minute demo to see if this works in practice. From what I saw, however, Meta Knight didn't seem to have too much trouble racking up the kills, albeit at much higher percentages than Ike and Bowser.

Also(and this was Melee's problem), the Power characters should now be able to live long enough against the speed character's chip damage to get in a few hits of their own. Theoretically, this is all they need in order for the match to be fair. For instance, for every 6 hits a Fox gets in on a Bowser, totalling 50%, Bowser could get 2 hits on said Fox, dealing 40-60%, and it'd be fairly even. In Melee, however, after that Fox got in 6 more hits, he could just kill the Bowser with a Usmash and not give him a chance to retaliate, and since the power characters tended to have horrific recoveries, while the speed and control characters were usually above average, the gap widened even more. Now that everyone seems to recover better, the Power guys should have enough extra time to kill that they'll have a fighting chance.

As to your 3-dimensional Tier theory, I'm absolutely in love with it, because it's a lot more objective than just listing the characters, since that tends to be misleading. Having their actual stats visibly there, if nothing else, is more convenient. For instance, Fox is way higher than Ganon on the Melee tier list, but just looking at it you have no way to know that a good Warlock Punch would send Fox packing. If, as you propose, we see that Ganondorf's power is substantially higher than Fox's, even a total Smash n00b could make this assumption. That was an overly simplified example, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Anyways, I don't know if your theory will gain much popularity simply because it is a lot more complex than just writing a list of characters, but I'm all for it. Of course, it remains to be seen whether Brawl does play out the way you say it will, since we still don't know how many/which characters made the cut, or how Final Smashes will be integrated into the tournament scene, if at all(another variable to consider on the tier list, I would imagine).

So, I guess what I'm saying is, I like the concept, but we'll have to wait and see. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Overswarm]

I promised myself I wouldn't post in this because I found this thread extremely delicious, but I have to say these things:


To everyone screaming in this thread through text: lol @ you. Read what you have written, then verbally speak it in the tone in which you were thinking. Make sure a girl is around to hear you. Ask yourself how silly you feel.


Replacement100:

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

TaroNuke says:
How would you define "control"
TaroNuke says:
in terms of smash bros
TaroNuke says:
well?
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
control?
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
No SDs
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
wow
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
he's a ******
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
what did he think it was?
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
skill?
TaroNuke says:
""control" is referring to a character type that focuses on CONTROLLING the match. the best way to do this is through range and grabs, so someone like marth. speed can HELP control but you have to have control moves, like a shine, in order to be able to control a match. so it is diff than speed and power."
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
both are right
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
but he's an idiot for calling you wrong
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
I'd say
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
Control is knowing the extend of the character you use.
---
TaroNuke says:
he meant it from a purely character perspective
TaroNuke says:
e.g. Pikachu is a 4 in "control"
TaroNuke says:
out of 10
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
that's stupid
---
TaroNuke says:
he then went on to say
TaroNuke says:
"Marth is a control type"
TaroNuke says:
"Using grabs to control the game"
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
wrong
Evan "egruntz" Gruntz says:
control isn't a character

Surely Egruntz isn't a ******?

 

[Overswarm]

oops????

double pots :\

 

[Overswarm]

If my time on Earth has shown me anything, it is that yes, EVERYONE is ********. So yes.


But in all seriousness, you both brought your own initial responses and treated them like they were symbols of your ego. 5150 brought in an unfamiliar phrase that you didn't understand, and even after explaining it you are saying "lol that's dumb cuz that ain't it".

Marth can be considered a "control" character because of his ultimate ability to "control" the flow of a match. In fact, it is one of his strong points. That's how he wins against space animals that are ultra fast. Hell, that's how M2K plays.

5150's word choice may be odd, but his statement isn't exactly difficult to understand. I can't fathom why on page 12 that particualr segment would still be discussed... except that this is Brawl Discussion.

 

[MookieRah]

Surely Egruntz isn't a ******?

No, he isn't, nor is he for thinking that given the context that you gave it. Instead, you should have had him read the first post of this thread THEN asked what he thought "control" was.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

5150's word choice may be odd, but his statement isn't exactly difficult to understand. I can't fathom why on page 12 that particualr segment would still be discussed... except that this is Brawl Discussion.

I DID understand what he meant AFTER he explained it. I thought it was dumb at first, but I've come to accept it. That being said, I don't agree with the theory. It would make a nice, noob friendly tier list but wouldn't ultimately determine the game's overall balance. It may or may not be understood after his hazy description of it within the first post.

I'm starting to get your theory though.

 

[5150]

At the very beginning your generalizations about Smash 64 made your thread not worth reading, a waste of my time. Just as I'm sure you'll consider this comment.

well i have played 64 and i know people who play it and everyone has the same fall speed and near same running speed. every aerial can be cancelled to 0 frames of lag by every character. so no the differences in movement aren't really there. sure theres ness and stuff but for hte most part, its easy to move from 1 char to another.

 

[OrlanduEX]

While I appreciate the amount of work and thought you've put into this essay, 5150, I think there are some glaring problems.

The main problem with the essay is that you don't give anyone a reason to believe that a 3D tier list is any superior to a 2D one.
You've already personally made it clear that your ideas concerning a 3D tier list for Brawl are based on your own assumptions, speculation, and predictions about the Melee development team and Brawl and not on facts or experience with the Brawl engine.
These non-factual personal ideas do not constitute a solid foundation on which to establish a new method of tier ranking.
You seem to be making the claim that a 3D tier list will be more appropriate than a 2D one for Brawl because:

-You assume that Brawl will prove more balanced than Melee
-You assume that the developers of Melee were designing characters based on a "power-speed-control" class system.
-You assume that ATs will not play as great a role in highly competitive play in Brawl as they do in Melee.

First of all, you were not a member of the Melee development team. Your assumptions about the roles that the developers meant for the characters in Melee are not based on irrefutable fact and thus are meaningless for supporting the idea that a 3D, "class" based tier list is superior to a 2D one.

Second, we as a community don't have nearly enough info on Brawl at any level to begin making statements about game balance or the importance of ATs on the metagame. For all we know, a yet to be confirmed character could turn out utterly broken or some yet to be discovered technique could change the metagame entirely. The presence of such unpredictable factors could utterly skew your 3D tier list ideas. Characters that would place highly on a 3D tier list based on their particular stats could prove ineffective or even useless in the face of a player utilizing a character with some broken or near broken ability. It is simply too soon to begin making determinations about the Brawl metagame.

This essay is only effective if the ideas that you postulated to support it are assumed as truth, and assumptions without a solid foundation in factual evidence are worthless. You don't have enough factual evidence on Brawl to make such assumptions.
If these assumptions are not taken as truth by those reading the essay, and there's no reason they should be since there are no facts behind them, then this entire essay amounts to baseless speculation.

If this were posted say 6 months from now with facts from Brawl supporting it instead of assumptions, it would prove groundbreaking. But at this point it is simply premature.

It's ironic how much you seem to despise the Brawl disc board for being full of meaningless speculation yet you do the very same in your OP.

And before you bring the "You're just a 5150 hater" argument, I've never read one of your threads before this one. Honestly though, I probably won't read another one considering how needlessly rude you are and how you utterly disregard all of those who argue against you as "********" or just not as experienced as you.

I'm disappointed that someone who thinks so deeply as yourself is so close-minded to criticism from others.

EDIT: The current tier list is 1D, not 2D. That was a misunderstanding on my part...

 

[5150]

While I appreciate the amount of work and thought you've put into this essay, 5150, I think there are some glaring problems.

The main problem with the essay is that you don't give anyone a reason to believe that a 3D tier list is any superior to a 2D one.
You've already personally made it clear that your ideas concerning a 3D tier list for Brawl are based on your own assumptions, speculation, and predictions about the Melee development team and Brawl and not on facts or experience with the Brawl engine.
These non-factual personal ideas do not constitute a solid foundation on which to establish a new method of tier ranking.
You seem to be making the claim that a 3D tier list will be more appropriate than a 2D one for Brawl because:

-You assume that Brawl will prove more balanced than Melee
-You assume that the developers of Melee were designing characters based on a "power-speed-control" class system.
-You assume that ATs will not play as great a role in highly competitive play in Brawl as they do in Melee.

First of all, you were not a member of the Melee development team. Your assumptions about the roles that the developers meant for the characters in Melee are not based on irrefutable fact and thus are meaningless for supporting the idea that a 3D, "class" based tier list is superior to a 2D one.

Second, we as a community don't have nearly enough info on Brawl at any level to begin making statements about game balance or the importance of ATs on the metagame. For all we know, a yet to be confirmed character could turn out utterly broken or some yet to be discovered technique could change the metagame entirely. The presence of such unpredictable factors could utterly skew your 3D tier list ideas. Characters that would place highly on a 3D tier list based on their particular stats could prove ineffective or even useless in the face of a player utilizing a character with some broken or near broken ability. It is simply too soon to begin making determinations about the Brawl metagame.

This essay is only effective if the ideas that you postulated to support it are assumed as truth, and assumptions without a solid foundation in factual evidence are worthless. You don't have enough factual evidence on Brawl to make such assumptions.
If these assumptions are not taken as truth by those reading the essay, and there's no reason they should be since there are no facts behind them, then this entire essay amounts to baseless speculation.

If this were posted say 6 months from now with facts from Brawl supporting it instead of assumptions, it would prove groundbreaking. But at this point it is simply premature.

It's ironic how much you seem to despise the Brawl disc board for being full of meaningless speculation yet you do the very same in your OP.

And before you bring the "You're just a 5150 hater" argument, I've never read one of your threads before this one. Honestly though, I probably won't read another one considering how needlessly rude you are and how you utterly disregard all of those who argue against you as "********" or just not as experienced as you.

I'm disappointed that someone who thinks so deeply as yourself is so close-minded to criticism from others.

this was a pretty decent post. and you're completely right. the thread is NOTHING but speculation and predictions. it wasn't meant to be and end all be all thread. it wasn't meant to kick teh current way we do tiers to the curb RIGHT NOW. the true tone of the op was "could this actually work?" and instead some 5150 haters rounded up their pitchforks and torches. THAT'S what brawl disc is, nothing but a mob. and honestly have you seen some of these other posts and topics? im right to stereotype a brawl discussion poster based on the posts i see, and this thread is a prime example of why NOT to post in brawl discussion.

hell you know it's a ****ed up forum when overswarm starts to flame them rofl.

EDIT: also it's actually a 1d tier list we are using now i would use a 2d tier list.

 

[The_Corax_King]

perhaps you could repost the topic and clarify the things people had troubles understanding...

that way you could start off on a clean slate... and instead of saying "i dont have time for posts like this" be patient and try to explain, otherwise it just turns into a flame war which is what really wastes your time...

 

[5150]

perhaps you could repost the topic and clarify the things people had troubles understanding...

that way you could start off on a clean slate... and instead of saying "i dont have time for posts like this" be patient and try to explain, otherwise it just turns into a flame war which is what really wastes your time...

well tbh when i posted this i didnt even think that brawl disc would be this bad. i thought people like mookierah would read it. and he did, but so did the rest of brawl disc. that was bad. and i honestly dont feel like rewriting what i wrote, which WORKS if you are qualified enough, for the masses.

you dont see scientists dumbing down their experiments so that construction workers can read it, do you?

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.> Thats what science magazines are for!

Anyways, maybe I'll play the role of the "Magazine" for you and rewrite it for you.
I should be studying right now though, so maybe later. ^_^v.

Still- Very good theory.
-DD

 

[OrlanduEX]

this was a pretty decent post. and you're completely right. the thread is NOTHING but speculation and predictions. it wasn't meant to be and end all be all thread. it wasn't meant to kick teh current way we do tiers to the curb RIGHT NOW. the true tone of the op was "could this actually work?" and instead some 5150 haters rounded up their pitchforks and torches. THAT'S what brawl disc is, nothing but a mob. and honestly have you seen some of these other posts and topics? im right to stereotype a brawl discussion poster based on the posts i see, and this thread is a prime example of why NOT to post in brawl discussion.

hell you know it's a ****ed up forum when overswarm starts to flame them rofl.

EDIT: also it's actually a 1d tier list we are using now i would use a 2d tier list.

I appreciate your response to my post.
And I agree that the Brawl disc is loaded with many emotional, highly opinionated posts, but lacking in well thought out ones.

And now I feel kinda foolish for referring to the current tier list as 2D all through my post...

 

[Linkeatspie]

I might sound like some sort of balance n00b, but I'm willing to sacrifice some advanced techs for more balance (though, as you pointed out, Sakurai probably could have balanced it whilst still having advanced techs but I digress). The difference between competitive and casual players will still be very imminent.

A 3D tier graph looks like it would be a great addition in calculating tiers. As you also mentioned, there will still be a 'high' tier but there will be a large 'middle' tier and a small 'bottom' tier; there might not even be a 'god/top' tier but knowing the Smash community I doubt it. I believe tiers will be more balanced.

Nice essay, by the way.

 

[Revven]

I like the idea of the whole "3D" tier list, it definitely feels reminiscent of the Sonic games' way to separate characters nowadays (Knuckles: Power, Tails: Flight, and Sonic: Speed for example). Except more in-depth, of course.

I'd like to see this put into action when Brawl's tier list is starting to be compiled, of course, it has to be a test drive and not the final first one until we know for sure it works well. However... there's something I wanted to add.

What if you added it where the tier list had its separate sections for each type with the characters like you have now and within each section you have the character with its stats for each section. I don't recall if you had this in your initial post, but, if you did I'm sorry for saying it again. As for an example of what I'm talking about...

EX: Power
Donkey Kong
Stats:
Power: 8/10
Control: 6/10
Speed: 4/10

Something like that, instead of just listing them in each section without being more in-depth with it for why they're there.

Again, I don't recall if you said this in your initial post as... I read the post a few days ago and I really don't feel like skimming to the part where this might be right now. Though, something tells me you already did mention this, which by this point you'd understand that I agree with the idea anyhow.

 

[Brenco55]

Whe one of the first lines of a thread say "dont post if u dont believe in tiers" or whatever and u post i dont believe in tiers ur stirring up s**t. all the comments ive seen would have been fine and did not need the addition of "i dont believe in tiers". your the ones being a-holes.

on topic: AMAZING, this is the kind of revolutionary thinking that smash needs. yes its just speculation but its well though out and open for debate. This is just proof of how everything can be improved upon by math. "Lets take it to the next demention" may be a catch phrase but 5150 took it tohear and ACTUALLY DID IT! Thanks!

 

[5150]

I like the idea of the whole "3D" tier list, it definitely feels reminiscent of the Sonic games' way to separate characters nowadays (Knuckles: Power, Tails: Flight, and Sonic: Speed for example). Except more in-depth, of course.

I'd like to see this put into action when Brawl's tier list is starting to be compiled, of course, it has to be a test drive and not the final first one until we know for sure it works well. However... there's something I wanted to add.

What if you added it where the tier list had its separate sections for each type with the characters like you have now and within each section you have the character with its stats for each section. I don't recall if you had this in your initial post, but, if you did I'm sorry for saying it again. As for an example of what I'm talking about...

EX: Power
Donkey Kong
Stats:
Power: 8/10
Control: 6/10
Speed: 4/10

Something like that, instead of just listing them in each section without being more in-depth with it for why they're there.

Again, I don't recall if you said this in your initial post as... I read the post a few days ago and I really don't feel like skimming to the part where this might be right now. Though, something tells me you already did mention this, which by this point you'd understand that I agree with the idea anyhow.

the problem with that is, many characters are drifters and some can be classified as both speed and control, or power and speed, or all 3 at times. it's better to just let the stats talk for themselves rather than have an arbitrary title by their name letting people know what the stats are already saying.

in my opinion, sakurai wanted a few characters to be "mixed" but not like melee turned out (where certain characters were not just mixed, but EVERYTHING).

Whe one of the first lines of a thread say "dont post if u dont believe in tiers" or whatever and u post i dont believe in tiers ur stirring up s**t. all the comments ive seen would have been fine and did not need the addition of "i dont believe in tiers". your the ones being a-holes.

on topic: AMAZING, this is the kind of revolutionary thinking that smash needs. yes its just speculation but its well though out and open for debate. This is just proof of how everything can be improved upon by math. "Lets take it to the next demention" may be a catch phrase but 5150 took it tohear and ACTUALLY DID IT! Thanks!

thank you.

 

[FireWater]

Its not enough to post something where if a person does not meet the two criterion displayed to simply ignore the post and have everything accept your word as truth. To solidify your point you simply need to result to personal insults against those who have a different view point altogether under the guise of using "superior logic"

Interesting tactics.

 

[5150]

Its not enough to post something where if a person does not meet the two criterion displayed to simply ignore the post and have everything accept your word as truth. To solidify your point you simply need to result to personal insults against those who have a different view point altogether under the guise of using "superior logic"

Interesting tactics.

*purposely not responding to this reply because mookeirah told me not to*

 

[DarkDragoon]

Very Good ^_^.
And to add to what you were saying about the mixed characters, we could probably take Mario as an example:
Power-6/10
Speed-6/10
Control-6/10

Its been my expierence that Mario is a generally balanced character, where we can look to someone like... I don't know...Capt.Falcon(I'm really kinda making this up for an example, trying to make it as close as possible).

Capt.Falcon
Power-6/10(He only had like, 3 attacks or so that REALLY stood out as powerful(To me, don't flame T_T))
Speed-9/10(The dude is zipping around like a kid with ADHD in a candy store.)
Control-3/10(This is low for the purposes of a "Balance" idea, but also a bit because what little I play the Captain(and not very well), I have a tough time controlling the stage.)

Now, all 3 add up to 18, for Mario and for Capt.Falcon.

Thats probably how the tiers should be set up, based on how close to each other certain totals become, and are grouped. Add up all the totals for all the characters, and get the average number(Assume that its an 18), therefore, Mario and Capt.Falcon are now Middle-Tier.

Should 19s be put in Middle Tier? I think so, 1 point should just stack them higher on the list, heck, even put SUB tiers.

20s? Nah, they get a new Tier. It'd be like... every 3 in either direction from 18(or whatever the average is) is a new Tier. So, 20 is "High Tier" and 16 is "Low Tier". If it GOES up to and/or over 23, thats just God Tier/Top Tier. Below 16...thats a Garbage Tier.

I think it would help organize it a bit more, and wouldn't need to argue that "Jigglypuff and Luigi should switch spots! Even though they're right next to each other!" sort of arguments.

>.> Note that I'm very tired and probably insulted a bunch of characters by posting info that probably isn't true, but that was all "made up" in the sense that, it could be like that for Brawl, and I really wasn't basing much on Melee info.

-DD

 

[Spellman]

I don't think there is such thing as an accurate tier list until the game has been on the shelves for long enough for people to discover the potential of every character. I think we're going to see a ton of people 'maining' the characters they think will play the best until they start getting bested by one single character. This could take years. People are going to try and make tier lists but they won't mean jack until a slew of people are good at the game and realize that, "No matter how good at the game I get, I can't beat this one character." I'm really hoping that will never happen... I know there is going to be a few underpowered characters but I'd like them all to fall under the mid range personally. The thing is, speed is the single most important area a character can excel at, because what's the point of a strong character if you can never land a hit? Strong characters will have to be equipped with a few fast techniques at least to be able to compete against talented players who use fast characters. So an "evolving" tier list would be too much to keep track of unfortunately, but underneath the formation of the true tier list, the things you said are basically what's happening. People watching games, watching certain characters excel, and then trying to perfect them themselves. Statistics will be the determining factor, and like I say, those need years of building.

I'm not going to go right out and say they've dumbed down the game in terms of complexity just because the "advanced techniques" from Melee weren't included, and I shouldn't have to believe otherwise to throw my two cents into this thread. There are other areas that this game will have gotten more complex, and more refined, but there wasn't enough time at E for All demo to fully explore this.

 

[MajinNecro69]

Well, based on this revelation on character types (These are MY assumptions, and I'm probably wrong):

All-Around (characters that can do a little of everything):
-Mario
-Pit
-Samus

Control:
-Meta Knight
-Peach
-Link
-Zelda
-Yoshi
-Ice Climbers
-Ivysaur
-Lucas

Speed:
-Fox
-Pikachu
-Sonic
-Squirtle
-Diddy Kong

Power:
-Bowser
-Dedede
-Ike
-DK
-Charizard
-Wario

Not Sure:
-Kirby
-Snake
-Pikmin & Olimar

I'd like to see a four-column tier list.
One for Overall best, one for power, one for speed and one for control.

Nice thread, TC.

 

[FireWater]

*purposely not responding to this reply because mookeirah told me not to*

A reply telling me that won't reply allegedly taking the moral high ground.

By purposely not responding, you actually responded. Interesting indeed.

 

[Droogieb]

Not really sure about this but what actually defines Control. I read a little about this earlier but I was wondering if it could be clarified further

 

[OrlanduEX]

A reply telling me that won't reply allegedly taking the moral high ground.

By purposely not responding, you actually responded. Interesting indeed.

There's no need to argue over every particular post. Just agree to disagree.

 

[5150]

Very Good ^_^.
And to add to what you were saying about the mixed characters, we could probably take Mario as an example:
Power-6/10
Speed-6/10
Control-6/10

Its been my expierence that Mario is a generally balanced character, where we can look to someone like... I don't know...Capt.Falcon(I'm really kinda making this up for an example, trying to make it as close as possible).

Capt.Falcon
Power-6/10(He only had like, 3 attacks or so that REALLY stood out as powerful(To me, don't flame T_T))
Speed-9/10(The dude is zipping around like a kid with ADHD in a candy store.)
Control-3/10(This is low for the purposes of a "Balance" idea, but also a bit because what little I play the Captain(and not very well), I have a tough time controlling the stage.)

Now, all 3 add up to 18, for Mario and for Capt.Falcon.

Thats probably how the tiers should be set up, based on how close to each other certain totals become, and are grouped. Add up all the totals for all the characters, and get the average number(Assume that its an 18), therefore, Mario and Capt.Falcon are now Middle-Tier.

Should 19s be put in Middle Tier? I think so, 1 point should just stack them higher on the list, heck, even put SUB tiers.

20s? Nah, they get a new Tier. It'd be like... every 3 in either direction from 18(or whatever the average is) is a new Tier. So, 20 is "High Tier" and 16 is "Low Tier". If it GOES up to and/or over 23, thats just God Tier/Top Tier. Below 16...thats a Garbage Tier.

I think it would help organize it a bit more, and wouldn't need to argue that "Jigglypuff and Luigi should switch spots! Even though they're right next to each other!" sort of arguments.

>.> Note that I'm very tired and probably insulted a bunch of characters by posting info that probably isn't true, but that was all "made up" in the sense that, it could be like that for Brawl, and I really wasn't basing much on Melee info.

-DD

its not addition. its area. so it's alot more complicated.

 

[Spellman]

Not really sure about this but what actually defines Control. I read a little about this earlier but I was wondering if it could be clarified further

I think it's like Mario playing quite smoothly and his attacks register the way you think they would but Luigi being the polar opposite, having no traction and sliding around, and his attacks seem a little more delayed. Basically with Meta-Knight, when you press A in front of your opponent, unless your motor and coordination skills are nil, you've hit your opponent, and he turns on a dime.

 

[Baconater]

well you kinda do have a 3d tier in melee. That's why you have counter characters. In melee i can use Jiggs to **** any power character and do pretty well against space characters. Dr. Mario, who'll lose to sheik most of the time, can destroy fox, falco, falcon, gannon, marth easily (it's all in the cape). There's been a largely 3D tier in melee, watch a video of DK vs. Fox.

 

[MookieRah]

Its not enough to post something where if a person does not meet the two criterion displayed to simply ignore the post and have everything accept your word as truth.

You don't understand. A lot of people were arguing against it when they didn't even understand it well enough to agree or disagree. They simply shrugged him off because they disliked him, and let their bias do all the judging for it.

 

[Dark Yoshi87]

Sonic is probably

10 Speed, 6 Control, 3 Power

 

[OrlanduEX]

well you kinda do have a 3d tier in melee. That's why you have counter characters. In melee i can use Jiggs to **** any power character and do pretty well against space characters. Dr. Mario, who'll lose to sheik most of the time, can destroy fox, falco, falcon, gannon, marth easily (it's all in the cape). There's been a largely 3D tier in melee, watch a video of DK vs. Fox.

While counter picking does play a role to some extent, Melee isn't balanced enough for a 3D tier system to work perfectly. Characters like Fox and Falco have an advantageous match up against everyone. Any advantages gained in counter picking against them are slight, and in the face of great skill and experience, negligible.
Dr. Mario does not easily destroy the high tiers like you say. People who use Dr. Mario at a highly competitive level generally focus on mastering him in particular. And Fox generally wrecks DK. (Please don't site Bum as an example. He is exceptionally good.)
If it were that easy, don't you think more pros would apply counterpicking to this extent in tournaments instead of using Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth or Peach all the time?

Sonic is probably

10 Speed, 6 Control, 3 Power

Kinda early to make that determination wouldn't you say? Do you think we should be deciding tier positions before the game even comes out?

 

[5150]

well you kinda do have a 3d tier in melee. That's why you have counter characters. In melee i can use Jiggs to **** any power character and do pretty well against space characters. Dr. Mario, who'll lose to sheik most of the time, can destroy fox, falco, falcon, gannon, marth easily (it's all in the cape). There's been a largely 3D tier in melee, watch a video of DK vs. Fox.

um thx for this but i quite understand counterpicks. melee we used a 1d tier system. we didnt think of anything better than a list.

 

[Spellman]

You don't understand. A lot of people were arguing against it when they didn't even understand it well enough to agree or disagree. They simply shrugged him off because they disliked him, and let their bias do all the judging for it.

Yeah, that's pretty lame when people do that. Sometimes if I feel I am too biased towards a person, I'll just avoid talking to them altogether. Which happens rarely, not too many things can push me over the edge of disliking someone so much that it clouds my perception.