What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[PoptartLord]

http://www.twitch.tv/uae_smashers UAE tournament with customs. Enjoy.

So I watched the tournament (although not the crew battles also on the channel) and saw absolutely nothing objectionable. Not just by my standards, but by anyone's standards. I'll list a few of the highlights in a spoiler tag in case someone hasn't watched yet.

Spoiler: Relevant highlights

A Palutena taking out a Ryu. Special use was nowhere near spamming levels. The Ryu got outplayed, simple as that.

Charizard victories! Dragon Rush was used exactly twice - the first time it was stuffed by a fireball before he could move more than two character lengths forward [no armor], and the second time was to traverse the underside of Smashville. I think there was also a sub-twenty second kill and an offstage down-air spike; those were brutal.

A default Peach going back and forth with a custom Mario. Mario was using Gust Cape instead of Shocking Cape so it wasn't exactly the load-out I keep reading is broken, but at least there was Fast Fireball and Scalding F.L.U.D.D.. Mario won the first set (it was close, and didn't go Peach game 1) and Peach won the rematch.

Megaman stuff. A lot of smart Danger Wraps to stuff opponent's aerial approaches and challenge high recoveries. Almost too much Beat usage, but it was only punished once (that I saw) so I can't actually say it was used too much. Kills were achieved through the usual suspects: back-air, back-throw, up-smash, and once even a partially charged down-smash. There were a surprising number of offstage down-air spike kills.

Both players in Grand Finals were using alternate specials. People are going to point that out and say "See? Broken!". Many players used only default characters.

The stream is now broken up into individual set videos so it doesn't take terribly long to watch it all. Thanks for the link.

-PoptartLord

 

[wizrad]

Are customs tournaments a thing in the UAE? I know they are in Finland.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why don't we just like... ban specific overpowered custom moves / custom movesets?

 

[Raijinken]

Why don't we just like... ban specific overpowered custom moves / custom movesets?

Because that's subjective. Case in point, I, and many customs players, don't think any single move or combination is overpowered. But I still know, on Smashboards and personally, several people (mostly non-customs players) who think certain ones are incontestably overpowered. While the experience of the people playing with and against the moves should weigh more heavily in any rational discussion, most opponents of the moves aren't rational in their arguments.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm still in favor of allowing custom moves for mid-tier and under. That effectively eliminates the vast majority of problematic customs AND the issue of high tiers getting even greater benefit from customs than low/mid tier at the same time, thus closing the tier gap as a whole without exception.

And this April, I'll be hosting an invitational with this ruleset to see how it goes.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think specific characters as could indeed profit a huge amount of customs being viable for them. I think it could create a more unique metagame. In 's case it's especially so. She's easily High Tier with Customs, but Bottom Tier without them. Why choose to invalidate ? Am pretty damn sure and would be picked far more often with Customs on as well. also becomes a whole different beast. gets the potential of being more than just a -clone without tipper. also becomes dangerous with Customs.

I don't think either of these characters would be able to defeat Top Tiers, but they at least become far more viable than before. Am not saying, give these characters options to all their customs... No. But maybe create one set moveset for these characters to be able to utalise them to their fullest potential.

with recent buffs and that Fire Ball projectile would also be real interessting in the meta game. As would with his faster arrows, regular Boomerang and Big Bombs. becomes a more serious contender to with customs... So many fun characters would finally be able to get some love.

 

[Charey]

Charizard doesn't benefit from customs that much once people figure out Dragon Rush. It's still unsafe on shield from any distance so you can't approach with it and it travels slower so you can't use it as an escape option like Flare Blitz. So in the end you have to use it in similar situations to Flare Blitz but with less reward. But you can get away with a ton of unsafe options with it if the person you are fighting doesn't know about Dragon Rush's weaknesses, which is a big part in why it seems so strong at first glance.

There are still a few match ups where it is a big boost like Rosalina where it can easily separate Luma but overall I started using Flare Blitz more than Dragon Rush towards the end of the time my local scene was using customs.

Out camping trip villager with fireball canon was hilarious though.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

Customs unbalance the neutral game.

I spend hours finding ways to counter a character's attacks, and then BA BAM! a different approach. I can't git gud like that.

I'm all for Miis, tho.

 

[Raijinken]

Customs unbalance the neutral game.

I spend hours finding ways to counter a character's attacks, and then BA BAM! a different approach. I can't git gud like that.

I'm all for Miis, tho.

People git gud like that all the time in other games, though. Kinda a weak appeal to laziness, that works just as well against any other new or changeable aspect of the game (DLC characters, balance patches, encountering a player with a new playstyle, etc.).

It also just makes the Gud end of gitting gud even better.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Customs unbalance the neutral game.

In theory that's a good argument, but they're not THAT polarising.

You could compare something like Fast Fireball to a Sheik Needle, for example. They're stopped by the same kind of thing, and should be countered in the same way. Just apply what you know with other moves to the Customs. When you get down to it, they're literally just mixups, and your opponent should be courteous enough for you to ask what they do, and if needed, demonstrate.

That being said, I'm all for customs.

 

[G. Stache]

I'm not forming any opinion against customs or anything, just bringing up a few points that I'd like to see answered:

1) obviously this has been brought up, but what do we do when the top tiers and the high tiers have very good customs that continue to outshine low/mid tiers? We like to theorize that people like Ganon will be picked more, but when I see custom Mario on the same character select screen, who is suddenly a very diverse character that has no problems killing, I'm hardly going to think of Ganon as an interesting character.

2) what do we do about the DLC characters with no customs/characters with no good customs? I understand that the characters that have usable customs will be very diverse compared to what they are now, but we're essentially also shooting everyone else in the knees...with a Tommy gun.

Again, I'm not against or for customs. But I only see people who are mostly for customs here, so I wanted to play devils advocate (I'm using that phrase correctly, right?)

 

[HermitHelmet]

2) what do we do about the DLC characters with no customs/characters with no good customs? I understand that the characters that have usable customs will be very diverse compared to what they are now, but we're essentially also shooting everyone else in the knees...with a Tommy gun.

Leave them be, with the exception of Mewtwo, all of their kits make them super good on their own. It wouldn't make it unfair by any means.

 

[blackghost]

I'm not forming any opinion against customs or anything, just bringing up a few points that I'd like to see answered:

1) obviously this has been brought up, but what do we do when the top tiers and the high tiers have very good customs that continue to outshine low/mid tiers? We like to theorize that people like Ganon will be picked more, but when I see custom Mario on the same character select screen, who is suddenly a very diverse character that has no problems killing, I'm hardly going to think of Ganon as an interesting character.

2) what do we do about the DLC characters with no customs/characters with no good customs? I understand that the characters that have usable customs will be very diverse compared to what they are now, but we're essentially also shooting everyone else in the knees...with a Tommy gun.

Again, I'm not against or for customs. But I only see people who are mostly for customs here, so I wanted to play devils advocate (I'm using that phrase correctly, right?)

1. there's no custom move that completly redefines the tier list and most top tiers are good because their normals and frame date are so good. remove all special moves from the game shiek is still the best character in the game. to use your ganon example he's very dfferent both to play and to fight current gannon as long as you dont fall for a frame trap (upsmash is safe dont try to punish) or get choked he isnt going to do much to you and offstage he is basically dead. with customs he gets new gameplans t try and that makes him more interesting.
we aren't shooting chaarcters in the knees we are handing them weapons to use.
2. the funny part is all the new dlc have moves that most people would think are custom moves. bayonatte has 2 side specials, clouds limit and finishing touch are basically custom moves. corrin counter and side b are absolutely insane when used properly. all of the dlc was designed to do well in 1v1 and giving them custom moves would have limited how many characters they made for sure. leave them alone all are fine. if someone wants to play a dlc character in a custom tournament they know they havce less options whats the problem?

 

[LancerStaff]

DLC characters don't have anything remotely similar to custom moves. Alternate inputs for different effects has existed since Melee with Marth and Samus's side specials, and at no point do you have to enable a different option before a match to use them. Little Mac and Cloud's meters don't have anything to do with customs either.

 

[ぱみゅ]

1) There are good characters and bad characters, we deal with them. Top Tiers become better or simply more annoying? We deal with them. If they degenerate or not the meta is something yet to be seen once it develops.
IF THE META NEVER DEVELOPS WE CAN'T TAKE TRUE MEASURES.
So far the only measures I've seen are knee-jerk reactions like banning specific moves, characters, or the whole Customs option.

2) DLCs might not have customs, but that's not an inherent disadvantage.
The main problem is that people perceive changing customs as a way to have advantage due to unfamiliarity, but once the players are used to most Custom moves, or at least the most relevant ones, such factor does not exist anymore.
(most) DLC characters are simply good enough as they are that they don't really need customs to compete in a Customs meta.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

In theory that's a good argument, but they're not THAT polarising.

You could compare something like Fast Fireball to a Sheik Needle, for example. They're stopped by the same kind of thing, and should be countered in the same way. Just apply what you know with other moves to the Customs. When you get down to it, they're literally just mixups, and your opponent should be courteous enough for you to ask what they do, and if needed, demonstrate.

That being said, I'm all for customs.

Like I stated before, customs feel unnatural. Not only does it force you to learn more data, but it also forces you to adapt your approach significantly. Smash 4 is too early in the competitive stage to try anything new. Let's take Mario as an example. Mario's Big Fireball hits multiple times, and if you act quickly enough, before they DI out of it, you could land a combo, even if you're playing against ZeRo. Players like M2K memorize data. Another of Mario's moves causes the opponent to slide significantly in the other way. A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Like I stated before, customs feel unnatural. Not only does it force you to learn more data, but it also forces you to adapt your approach significantly. Smash 4 is too early in the competitive stage to try anything new. Let's take Mario as an example. Mario's Big Fireball hits multiple times, and if you act quickly enough, before they DI out of it, you could land a combo, even if you're playing against ZeRo. Players like M2K memorize data. Another of Mario's moves causes the opponent to slide significantly in the other way. A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.

And when it's no longer "too early" to learn new things, the meta will be entrenched instead and people will resist change anyway. I fail to see the logic.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I see no problem with the whole issue of 'Custom Move' viability. And I'll explain so I don't get shot down faster than a terrorist in an airplane.
not the time? Alright.


I'll go over an example of a character that I consider to be most heavily buffed from this.

Generally thought of as a lower-tier character compared to many others due to quite a few reasons (and his For Glory fanbase not helping him out either, with those two horrendous skins), he actually becomes really good at punishing missed techs and great at getting damage off footstools if executed properly. Quickfire Bow causes a jab lock when they miss a tech, which can lead into basically any follow-up that you could want afterwards. Boomerang is much more useful than the standard Gale Boomerang, and doesn't drag opponents towards you and does more damage. Shocking Spin does a very hefty amount of damage and can work out of Quickfire Bow's Jab Locking for really early KOs. Meteor Bomb, despite being unable to return to stage as easily as normal (especially when using Shocking Spin due to a decrease in distance), are great for punishing airdodges and throwing downwards offstage to catch low-recovering opponents and characters such as Marth/Lucina, Cloud, Little Mac, Kirby, and Ike who rely on being below the stage to recover oftentimes.


Now, you might argue that Customs can completely change a character's viability. Which is most of the time false. Mii Brawler's best moves are customs (although Miis in general are an entirely different debate, which I'm also for), and his 1111 set is complete garbage while 1122 or 2122, and sometimes even 1132/2132 are very much so good with early KOing potential but he still has pitiful range with a small size and, despite being good at juggling and comboing, can't get off as much damage as other characters can as quickly.. Mario gets a slightly better projectile that travels faster, a possibly better KOing option in his Up Special, three variations for FLUDD that all are usable, and a higher range Cape, but his problems still remain. Ganondorf is another exception that becomes significantly better with customs, but many of his attacks are still slow and the 'approaching tool' in Down Special can be easily shielded.

You might notice a pattern there. Customs don't massively change the flaws of a character, possibly giving a slight fix to one or just buffing their good traits overall. Customs don't give Sheik a gaurenteed KOing option at 50% from the center of the stage, don't turn Ganondorf's frame data into Sheik's, and don't give characters projectiles on all of their attacks such as Roy or Little Mac. They simply add to a character's versatility.

"But, we can't memorize all of these custom moves! It just isn't fair!"

If you can't memorize these custom moves that most players will almost always use, then why do we memorize matchups? Why do we have techniques such as wavedashing and perfect pivots that many players can't do? Should we ban these because some players just aren't used to these techniques? No, we instead teach them how to counteract them. Many characters won't use customs still. DLC characters won't, Jigglypuff most likely won't as her customs are even worse than her base moveset, and some characters such as Little Mac, Sheik, and the Pits have customs that are either sidegrades or optional. Nothing is explicitly 'OP', some are ridiculous like Counter Tree or Kong Cyclone, but you can counteract these by learning. Study what customs people use, then figure out how to beat it.

You aren't going to get better by sitting there and banning things because you 'can't handle such versatility'. If we're doing that, then why don't we just ban Shulk, Ryu, Sheik, and all these other characters that have techniques, moves, or entire styles of gameplay that people can't handle or understand well?


Guess I made my point clear.

 

[HermitHelmet]

A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.

lmao Dude that's such a sweeping statement, the meta doesn't even exist for customs so you can't even say how your character would perform, let alone scenarios in which people wouldn't understand how they work.

There's zero reason not to adapt to learn them if you think "having more options" is the issue.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Like I stated before, customs feel unnatural. Not only does it force you to learn more data, but it also forces you to adapt your approach significantly. Smash 4 is too early in the competitive stage to try anything new. Let's take Mario as an example. Mario's Big Fireball hits multiple times, and if you act quickly enough, before they DI out of it, you could land a combo, even if you're playing against ZeRo. Players like M2K memorize data. Another of Mario's moves causes the opponent to slide significantly in the other way. A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.

'A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.'

Falcon Dash Punch turns Falcon Punch from a powerful yet almost impossible to hit attack to a move that will nail the regular getup, getup attack, and roll getup option from either a missed tech or returning from the ledge. At the cost, this move does minimally less damage to the point that it's basically a complete upgrade in high level competitive play. It also gives Falcon a method of moving forwards in the air without jumping, Raptor Boost, or Falcon Dive.

Heavy Raptor Boost adds armor and more damage to the attack but decreases range and speed, making characters such as Sheik have some problems anticipating that this will occur since they usually can just keep on pressuring Falcon. This also increases Raptor Boost's viability as a killing option and makes it better.

Wind-up Raptor Boost takes a step back, adding to the startup frames but having a faster charge and can promote a MASSIVE mindgame. Opponents might release attacks earlier than usual in anticipation that you will rush in faster, thus giving you a free hit.

Explosive Dive, despite worsening Captain Falcon's already rather awful recovery, will give him a shield-ignoring insanely powerful killing option that can be used OUT OF SHIELD to punish opponents. Also, if it ignores the ledge and grabs opponents when recovering, you still get another use back.


You can't just say that your character can't play if Customs are on. I main Little Mac, who suffers greatly as Mario and Doctor Mario get amazing gimping options, better than they already were, many characters have stronger, safer, more useful attacks, and yet you currently see me fighting FOR Customs here. Your custom moveset is fine; you have option that you can work with.


New point to make: Mortal Kombat X. I'm using my limited knowledge of the game here, but doesn't each character have three movesets? Doesn't that game allow people to use each of these movesets within competitive play? If people can memorize those, why can they not memorize custom moves? Sure, they might usually pick one set of moves in MKX to play with, but so do competitive Smashers with their custom movesets such as Mii Brawler often going 1122 or 2122. You have to get used to fighting them.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

'A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.'

Falcon Dash Punch turns Falcon Punch from a powerful yet almost impossible to hit attack to a move that will nail the regular getup, getup attack, and roll getup option from either a missed tech or returning from the ledge. At the cost, this move does minimally less damage to the point that it's basically a complete upgrade in high level competitive play. It also gives Falcon a method of moving forwards in the air without jumping, Raptor Boost, or Falcon Dive.

Heavy Raptor Boost adds armor and more damage to the attack but decreases range and speed, making characters such as Sheik have some problems anticipating that this will occur since they usually can just keep on pressuring Falcon. This also increases Raptor Boost's viability as a killing option and makes it better.

Wind-up Raptor Boost takes a step back, adding to the startup frames but having a faster charge and can promote a MASSIVE mindgame. Opponents might release attacks earlier than usual in anticipation that you will rush in faster, thus giving you a free hit.

Explosive Dive, despite worsening Captain Falcon's already rather awful recovery, will give him a shield-ignoring insanely powerful killing option that can be used OUT OF SHIELD to punish opponents. Also, if it ignores the ledge and grabs opponents when recovering, you still get another use back.


You can't just say that your character can't play if Customs are on. I main Little Mac, who suffers greatly as Mario and Doctor Mario get amazing gimping options, better than they already were, many characters have stronger, safer, more useful attacks, and yet you currently see me fighting FOR Customs here. Your custom moveset is fine; you have option that you can work with.


New point to make: Mortal Kombat X. I'm using my limited knowledge of the game here, but doesn't each character have three movesets? Doesn't that game allow people to use each of these movesets within competitive play? If people can memorize those, why can they not memorize custom moves? Sure, they might usually pick one set of moves in MKX to play with, but so do competitive Smashers with their custom movesets such as Mii Brawler often going 1122 or 2122. You have to get used to fighting them.

I don't think you read my entire argument. You chose Little Mac because he applied to you and you liked him. Customs do not change that. At most it increases the chances of your defeat with his third up+b not damaging, I believe. LIttle Mac has other tools


that's why mkx is dead lol

Having more options has nothing to do with customs. Options are created by the player, not by customs.

The only reason I will be in support of Customs is 3333, 2222 or 1111.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I don't think you read my entire argument. You chose Little Mac because he applied to you and you liked him. Customs do not change that. At most it increases the chances of your defeat with his third up+b not damaging, I believe. LIttle Mac has other tools


that's why mkx is dead lol

Having more options has nothing to do with customs. Options are created by the player, not by customs.

And now I get my chance to go off on someone. You appear to be completely blind to the other side of the issue and refuse to accept that maybe there IS a chance Customs can be allowed in the metagame.

I understand people's complaints about Custom moves,and I have a good feeling that I understand your argument all too well. "They're so difficult to get since you can't just play For Glory and start earning customs!" "This requires me to learn more information than a normal game!" "They are unbalanced and shift the favor of matches into other players' favor!" "Why not just have 3333, 2222, or 1111 sets?" "You don't have them at the start of the game, why should we allow unlockable items that we can't just earn through DLC or something?"

And you know what, I'll go over these. Because I'm a nice person that is attempting to make you actually READ SOMETHING.

Yes, you can't just run around and play the normal game to unlock customs. Get over it. People can go ahead and enjoy playing a stock 1111 match or enjoy the game as Sakurai had intended and experiment around with other things like Classic, Trophy Rush, and All-Star in order to unlock precious custom moves. I personally am doing constant runs of Classic right now in order to keep unlocking customs, since I think almost all of them has a use and I need to experiment with them for future guides I plan on making. But I didn't expect anything to come easy, and neither should players who think this. I don't find many of these people.

This is probably the most common argument I get alongside the Smash players at my school, albeit the few that there are. Yes, we will have to start learning more information about a character that we should already know about, and changing one or two attributes them isn't that hard to work around. It's like making Little Mac's Straight Lunge more useful; Cool, the character has another option. Now I'll be a bit more careful, shield a little bit, make sure that my counter play skills are up to par. If you are using this as your argument, then why do we, as competitive Smash players, memorize 58 character matchups, watch over footage of how other players work with their characters, practice all of the time, and generally get better at the game? Do we just do this because we are bored? (Ok, maybe you are.) But we do it because this is a COMPETITIVE game where things can happen that are special to this game and this game only. And Customs are a part of that, and something that Sakurai wanted.

Cool, they 'unbalance' the game. Now give me ONE character that becomes better than Sheik when using customs. Can't think of one, right? That's because there isn't any. Customs are glorious in the fact 99% of them still have one major flaw that makes them worse than their originals, and many players in tournaments would just use 1111 and nobody'd argue about it. Ganondorf becomes an entirely different beast and moves up quite a bit on the tier list, but he suddenly doesn't become god. He doesn't improve on the fact his recovery is quite predictable, has crap frame data barring Up Smash, and is gimped extremely easily. Same goes for almost any other character (Palutena might be an example; she becomes insane with Customs and can become a terror.) But this ties into the directly above argument; LEARN. If we are going to learn how to fight Captain Falcon as Sheik, we will check just how Captain Falcon works. Oh, a lot of people recently have started using Wind-Up Raptor Boost? Then I will hold shield a bit longer than usual and punish just like I would otherwise. Oh, he is also using Dash Falcon Punch? I will be sure to watch out for this in the match. It's not hard to understand how a custom works if you understand the character's fundamentals and how the custom works; you will know when they will use it since they will use it when it is beneficial. If they use it at random, then that's just them.

1111, 2222, and 3333 movesets are restrictive. They don't show off the true potential of custom movesets, and the Custom Moveset Project that went on is much better in terms of what the TRUE restrictive custom movesets should be if people have massive issues with them. They restrict the types of custom moves to certain sets, and, using myself as an example, love Stunning Straight Lunge for Little Mac and Heavy Blade for Marth and Lucina, but those aren't on the Custom Moveset Project's lists. I will have to adapt to that since those are the customs that I follow, and I will learn how to properly use Straight Lunge (Dancing Blade was easy enough after 3 years of playing Brawl.) This is probably the best argument that I can feel outside of the 'This requires me to learn more information than a normal game' argument. It's still not enough, though.

Don't even attempt to use this a coherent response if anyone would. We have DLC characters, unlockable characters, stages, and the likes such as this. We can't just say that as a blanket excuse that we should ban anything that isn't on the starting screen at the loading menu, as this will ban things that shouldn't be banned in games like this. "But Customs aren-" Shush, my ignorant child. Customs are unlocked by playing the game thoroughly; Characters and some stages are unlocked through playing the game as it was intended as well. And that's how it should be and that's how it most likely will be.

And Smash_Akuma, the fact you are for allowing Miis and banning Customs is pretty out of whack to me. Miis are extremely versatile with their customs on, without they are garbage and the argument of them has more people on either side than there actually are Mii mains. You can't just say that you want Miis yet ban customs, since both of them are fundamental parts of the game; if you ban either one you might as well ban the other. Unless you are one of those people that only wants customs for Miis and full allowance for them. In which case, you are a rare minority but I doubt this.


If you have any OTHER arguments to post up, please do. I'm willing to type like this all of the time to get you to listen.


EDIT: "We haven't had enough time to build up the metagame!" This game was released in October 2014.
Shut up. (Also tried changing a word or two to make myself sound more chill. Kinda mad when writing this.)

 

[paperchao]

To me, customs are really cool because they give the meta a new emphasis on playstyle preference, while also making adaptability a factor for characters between matchups. Me being able to run fast fire bird and explosive lasers feels a lot better for me as falco. I'm hoping glitch opens the gates for more side events, as it's a shame that the meta has been stagnant for this long now.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

>says he's a nice guy
>calls me blind
>tells me to shut up

k


This is why no casuals pay attention to the competitive scene; people are constantly ruining the experience of sharing their opinions.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

>says he's a nice guy
>calls me blind
>tells me to shut up

k


This is why no casuals pay attention to the competitive scene; people are constantly ruining the experience of sharing their opinions.

It's because you are almost trying hard to ignore my side. I'm accepting that there are good opinions, but you blatantly refuse to admit that there might be some merit to the other side's opinions and it's pissing me off. I'm not like this normally.

That post was meant more as a general statement against people who say no to Customs, not just pinpointed at you. Although, the shut up WAS towards you, but - Ah screw it, I'm just wasting my time at this point.

If you could PLEASE read my argument, that'd be kind of nice.

 

[FallenHero]

And now I get my chance to go off on someone. You appear to be completely blind to the other side of the issue and refuse to accept that maybe there IS a chance Customs can be allowed in the metagame.

I understand people's complaints about Custom moves,and I have a good feeling that I understand your argument all too well. "They're so difficult to get since you can't just play For Glory and start earning customs!" "This requires me to learn more information than a normal game!" "They are unbalanced and shift the favor of matches into other players' favor!" "Why not just have 3333, 2222, or 1111 sets?" "You don't have them at the start of the game, why should we allow unlockable items that we can't just earn through DLC or something?"

And you know what, I'll go over these. Because I'm a nice person that is attempting to make you actually READ SOMETHING.

Yes, you can't just run around and play the normal game to unlock customs. Get over it. People can go ahead and enjoy playing a stock 1111 match or enjoy the game as Sakurai had intended and experiment around with other things like Classic, Trophy Rush, and All-Star in order to unlock precious custom moves. I personally am doing constant runs of Classic right now in order to keep unlocking customs, since I think almost all of them has a use and I need to experiment with them for future guides I plan on making. But I didn't expect anything to come easy, and neither should players who think this. I don't find many of these people.

This is probably the most common argument I get alongside the Smash players at my school, albeit the few that there are. Yes, we will have to start learning more information about a character that we should already know about, and changing one or two attributes them isn't that hard to work around. It's like making Little Mac's Straight Lunge more useful; Cool, the character has another option. Now I'll be a bit more careful, shield a little bit, make sure that my counter play skills are up to par. If you are using this as your argument, then why do we, as competitive Smash players, memorize 58 character matchups, watch over footage of how other players work with their characters, practice all of the time, and generally get better at the game? Do we just do this because we are bored? (Ok, maybe you are.) But we do it because this is a COMPETITIVE game where things can happen that are special to this game and this game only. And Customs are a part of that, and something that Sakurai wanted.

Cool, they 'unbalance' the game. Now give me ONE character that becomes better than Sheik when using customs. Can't think of one, right? That's because there isn't any. Customs are glorious in the fact 99% of them still have one major flaw that makes them worse than their originals, and many players in tournaments would just use 1111 and nobody'd argue about it. Ganondorf becomes an entirely different beast and moves up quite a bit on the tier list, but he suddenly doesn't become god. He doesn't improve on the fact his recovery is quite predictable, has crap frame data barring Up Smash, and is gimped extremely easily. Same goes for almost any other character (Palutena might be an example; she becomes insane with Customs and can become a terror.) But this ties into the directly above argument; LEARN. If we are going to learn how to fight Captain Falcon as Sheik, we will check just how Captain Falcon works. Oh, a lot of people recently have started using Wind-Up Raptor Boost? Then I will hold shield a bit longer than usual and punish just like I would otherwise. Oh, he is also using Dash Falcon Punch? I will be sure to watch out for this in the match. It's not hard to understand how a custom works if you understand the character's fundamentals and how the custom works; you will know when they will use it since they will use it when it is beneficial. If they use it at random, then that's just them.

1111, 2222, and 3333 movesets are restrictive. They don't show off the true potential of custom movesets, and the Custom Moveset Project that went on is much better in terms of what the TRUE restrictive custom movesets should be if people have massive issues with them. They restrict the types of custom moves to certain sets, and, using myself as an example, love Stunning Straight Lunge for Little Mac and Heavy Blade for Marth and Lucina, but those aren't on the Custom Moveset Project's lists. I will have to adapt to that since those are the customs that I follow, and I will learn how to properly use Straight Lunge (Dancing Blade was easy enough after 3 years of playing Brawl.) This is probably the best argument that I can feel outside of the 'This requires me to learn more information than a normal game' argument. It's still not enough, though.

Don't even attempt to use this a coherent response if anyone would. We have DLC characters, unlockable characters, stages, and the likes such as this. We can't just say that as a blanket excuse that we should ban anything that isn't on the starting screen at the loading menu, as this will ban things that shouldn't be banned in games like this. "But Customs aren-" SHUT UP. Customs are unlocked by playing the game thoroughly; Characters and some stages are unlocked through playing the game as it was intended as well. And that's how it should be and that's how it most likely will be.

And Smash_Akuma, the fact you are for allowing Miis and banning Customs is pretty out of whack to me. Miis are extremely versatile with their customs on, without they are garbage and the argument of them has more people on either side than there actually are Mii mains. You can't just say that you want Miis yet ban customs, since both of them are fundamental parts of the game; if you ban either one you might as well ban the other. Unless you are one of those people that only wants customs for Miis and full allowance for them. In which case, you are a rare minority but I doubt this.


If you have any OTHER arguments to post up, please do. I'm willing to type like this all of the time to get you to listen.


EDIT: "We haven't had enough time to build up the metagame!" This game was released in October 2014.
Shut up.

lol this probably has to be the most patronizing post I've seen on smashboards. You would know Smash_Akuma did read your post if you actually decided to read his.

that's why mkx is dead lol

I don't really know anything about MKX, but if this is true then he may have brought up a good point against customs. A game where you have to learn how to deal with 3 different versions of a character's 4 special moves, that has 58 characters does not look very inviting to someone who wants to get into this game competitively. Yes you can learn how to deal with them, but sometimes there can be too much to learn for someone who wants to be a good competitive player and still wants to play other games or something.

Also just because Miis are not good without customs doesn't mean they should not be allowed without customs, and I am not sure I would say customs are a fundamental part of the game because if they were I feel like DLC characters would have them and they would be available on FG.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

lol this probably has to be the most patronizing post I've seen on smashboards. You would know Smash_Akuma did read your post if you actually decided to read his.



I don't really know anything about MKX, but if this is true then he may have brought up a good point against customs. A game where you have to learn how to deal with 3 different versions of a character's 4 special moves, that has 58 characters does not look very inviting to someone who wants to get into this game competitively. Yes you can learn how to deal with them, but sometimes there can be too much to learn for someone who wants to be a good competitive player and still wants to play other games or something.

Also just because Miis are not good without customs doesn't mean they should not be allowed without customs, and I am not sure I would say customs are a fundamental part of the game because if they were I feel like DLC characters would have them and they would be available on FG.

Alright, I've cooled off. Got irrationally angry there.

He doesn't seem to want to accept that I have a point when arguing so I went off on him. I don't get to do anything like this often, so I took the opportunity. Forgive me if I actually was that angry.

Maybe you are right on the whole customs thing, though. Issue is that many of the customs are basically unviable or are so similar to the standard that it's mostly hard to beat them outside of doing what you did with the regular. Didn't think about that one, valid point good sir.

And on your last argument, yeah I guess you have a point. Miis don't really have a community and not many people can decide on how they should go, and I just anticipate them being able to use customs and eventually for the whole cast to.

Sincere apologies :x

 

[Smash_Akuma]

No, YOU read MY argument.

I have been addressing your name-calling and general rudeness with enough politeness, but it's enough.

I have read your pro-customs arguments so many times. There's a reason why Street Fighter is more popular than Smash. It's because the gameplay aspect allows more combo opportunities, parries, etc. Adding a new style of Hadoken which is slower on Start-up and hits multiple times doesn't really enhance the game. Mechanics like one-frame links, V-Triggers, and parries enhance the complete way the casual community perceive the game.

Do I play on Customs? No. Have I unlocked all customs? Yes. Playing Smash to a certain point allows for the player to create certain options. The competitive smash scene plays Smash so fast the learning curve takes a shape similar to a 90 degree angle. At this point, many players will realize that the only reason customs become viable is to create a flashier and better combo. In addition, many of Marth(example, not my real main)'s combos could be void(at least when I play) because of his Up+B changing. The characters who do choose customs are choosing between finishing off opponents quickly or drawing the game out. Rather, the 1111 moveset is a bit of a common ground between both 2222 and 3333. At this point, all top 10 players will resort to 1111 playstyles after a brief stint with customs.

The customs are not what really enhance the scene or change it. It's because of the new faces being seen at your local tournament. Adapting to that playstyle is much better than adapting to 3264 playstyles of each different character. I understand my math is really dumb because I'm not taking into account that of human intellect, but humans can't change that number in any way. I'd rather adapt to a 1111 playstyle other than a 1111, 2222 and 3333 playstyle for each character.

lol this probably has to be the most patronizing post I've seen on smashboards. You would know Smash_Akuma did read your post if you actually decided to read his.



I don't really know anything about MKX, but if this is true then he may have brought up a good point against customs. A game where you have to learn how to deal with 3 different versions of a character's 4 special moves, that has 58 characters does not look very inviting to someone who wants to get into this game competitively. Yes you can learn how to deal with them, but sometimes there can be too much to learn for someone who wants to be a good competitive player and still wants to play other games or something.

Also just because Miis are not good without customs doesn't mean they should not be allowed without customs, and I am not sure I would say customs are a fundamental part of the game because if they were I feel like DLC characters would have them and they would be available on FG.

wait you're from the bronx















i hope for Halloween you cosplay as lil mac

 

[FallenHero]

wait you're from the bronx















i hope for Halloween you cosplay as lil mac

lol I'm too tall for that. If I worked out a whole bunch and had less acne I would be able to pull off a pretty good looking Ryu cosplay though (I always thought Ryu looked Hispanic in SF3).

 

[Smash_Akuma]

lol I'm too tall for that. If I worked out a whole bunch and had less acne I would be able to pull off a pretty good looking Ryu cosplay though (I always thought Ryu looked Hispanic in SF3).

damn it


i would have loved to see reports of a man dressed as a boxer beating the crap out of buff men of different ethnicity.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

No, YOU read MY argument.

I have been addressing your name-calling and general rudeness with enough politeness, but it's enough.

I have read your pro-customs arguments so many times. There's a reason why Street Fighter is more popular than Smash. It's because the gameplay aspect allows more combo opportunities, parries, etc. Adding a new style of Hadoken which is slower on Start-up and hits multiple times doesn't really enhance the game. Mechanics like one-frame links, V-Triggers, and parries enhance the complete way the casual community perceive the game.

Do I play on Customs? No. Have I unlocked all customs? Yes. Playing Smash to a certain point allows for the player to create certain options. The competitive smash scene plays Smash so fast the learning curve takes a shape similar to a 90 degree angle. At this point, many players will realize that the only reason customs become viable is to create a flashier and better combo. In addition, many of Marth(example, not my real main)'s combos could be void(at least when I play) because of his Up+B changing. The characters who do choose customs are choosing between finishing off opponents quickly or drawing the game out. Rather, the 1111 moveset is a bit of a common ground between both 2222 and 3333. At this point, all top 10 players will resort to 1111 playstyles after a brief stint with customs.

The customs are not what really enhance the scene or change it. It's because of the new faces being seen at your local tournament. Adapting to that playstyle is much better than adapting to 3264 playstyles of each different character. I understand my math is really dumb because I'm not taking into account that of human intellect, but humans can't change that number in any way. I'd rather adapt to a 1111 playstyle other than a 1111, 2222 and 3333 playstyle for each character.

Final post, I don't want this to extend any farther. We are arguing over something meaningless (unless the viewers enjoy watching this.)

I personally am not FULLY Pro-customs. I think they could pretty badly hurt the scene of newer players, and while we are learning all of the matchups it could be too much. And that's what I'd expect normal people to work around and learn. That's where my viewpoint is wrong, but that is what I wish would happen.

If Customs were instead mechanics, then there'd be something new. And I'll respect your point that they don't enhance the game and actually probably hinder it. They WILL change it, however. More players coming will be more important, but those players also bring knowledge of custom moves. And that's where the problem goes back to if Customs should be allowed since *insert millions of reasons here*.

I feel like the community won't ever agree on this, putting more thought into it. If we go either way, we are hurting a group of people and their opinion. Guess there ain't no common ground this time.

I will remain steadfast on my side and you will yours, if you want to continue this personally send me messages. We don't need to flood this forum with unecessary stuff. And I feel like I've posted enough today. Let's actually settle this like normal human beings.

 

[HermitHelmet]

lol, whilst I don't agree, both 64, Melee and PM are super hard to get into from a casual standpoint because it's a pain to find a copy of the game, get the right setup, etc.

Those are logistical reasons to stop people from joining the scene, and both 64/Melee have had their greatest growth periods during the last couple of years. Smash 4 is easily the most accessible, so needing to learn new moves shouldn't be a deterring factor to newbs if 64/Melee/PM players have had to deal with worse.

 

[Raijinken]

Like I stated before, customs feel unnatural. Not only does it force you to learn more data, but it also forces you to adapt your approach significantly. Smash 4 is too early in the competitive stage to try anything new. Let's take Mario as an example. Mario's Big Fireball hits multiple times, and if you act quickly enough, before they DI out of it, you could land a combo, even if you're playing against ZeRo. Players like M2K memorize data. Another of Mario's moves causes the opponent to slide significantly in the other way. A CF main like me has no chance if I play on Customs.

This thread has you covered as far as the "too new to try something new" argument.

There's a simple response for people too daunted by having to learn eight new moves per character, though. Go play a game without them, or don't play the game competitively. This is how pro gaming works. I do not lobby the Melee community to use hacks to make L-canceling innate just because I disagree with it as a prerequisite for skilled play, I just don't play Melee, or I don't compete when I do. If you can't handle eight more moves per character, then either play 1111 and adapt on the fly, or don't play competitive Smash4 with Customs on. Fortunately for you, that's the norm now. But no rational person will hate you for not playing a game you don't like. Many rational people will get angry at you if you, as an outsider to the scene, pitch fits about something you don't demonstrably have authority to complain about. So pardon us as the last bastion of Pro-Customs players for being irritated at you for assaulting our ruleset.

 

[FallenHero]

There's a simple response for people too daunted by having to learn eight new moves per character, though. Go play a game without them, or don't play the game competitively. This is how pro gaming works.

There are not many other games like Smash and the closest to Smash 4 is Brawl, which is dead. I'm all for a deep fighting game with a lot to learn in it, but it can definitely be too much for some or even most people to learn. We are trying to grow the competitive smash scene, not hurt it by only allowing the most dedicated to play competitively. Most players don't begin with enough dedication to want to learn 12 moves for 52 characters and most of us are not pro gamers, just competitive gamers.

Many rational people will get angry at you if you, as an outsider to the scene, pitch fits about something you don't demonstrably have authority to complain about.

Most players who are against customs have tried customs and did not like them, or at least didn't like them in a serious competitive setting.

So pardon us as the last bastion of Pro-Customs players for being irritated at you for assaulting our ruleset.

lol I thought this was a thread to discuss our opinions on customs. How the hell are we assaulting your rule set if we are supposed to discuss our opinions?

 

[Raijinken]

There are not many other games like Smash and the closest to Smash 4 is Brawl, which is dead. I'm all for a deep fighting game with a lot to learn in it, but it can definitely be too much for some or even most people to learn. We are trying to grow the competitive smash scene, not hurt it by only allowing the most dedicated to play competitively. Most players don't begin with enough dedication to want to learn 12 moves for 52 characters and most of us are not pro gamers, just competitive gamers.



Most players who are against customs have tried customs and did not like them, or at least didn't like them in a serious competitive setting.



lol I thought this was a thread to discuss our opinions on customs. How the hell are we assaulting your rule set if we are supposed to discuss our opinions?

For any player daunted by complexity, there is another enticed by it. Without data, any playerbase impact arguments are hollow, from either side.

I know, in person and online, more than a handful of players who refuse to use customs off of hearsay or observation alone. Even discounting that, trying something and disliking it doesn't matter when removing or restricting components from a competitive ruleset. But between the bitter drop after EVO and the kneejerk reactions to Kong Cyclone at all skill levels, I, at least, am not convinced that the decision to drop them was made competitively, but by TOs listening to the loudest yelling.

To the last, you have a fair point. I apologize the counter-attack, but it's exhasparating trying to dispel the same bad logic, correct the same factual errors, and explain away the same poor reasoning on a different person for the umpteenth time. I've been at this so long that I didn't even realize I've had the same debate with you months ago already.

 

[Rizen]

@ last page A run down of Link's custom moves:
Quickfire arrows vs normal: quickfire are overall better because the enhance mid range zoning and are faster (duh). The transcendent properties are good too. Normal arrows also lock untecked landings and have better use for hitting launched/offstage opponents so they're not that much worse.
Powerbow has no use in competitive smash because it takes too long to charge and you lose it for zoning.

The "melee boomerang" is better than the gale because returning hitstun and better damage. The gale wind pulling wasn't a bad thing though because Link crosses over many times a game and can't keep moving backwards. It screws up spacing for many forward specials and can gimp characters with freefall/unforgiving recoveries. There are a few MUs I'd take the gale over melee rang.
Ripping rang is a complete pos without combo potential.

Normal spin attack is the only one worth using. Wind spin doesn't snap to the ledge or have hitbubble for easily stopped recoveries. Shocking spin has near-no recovery and more lag. Link already has much better kill moves.

Normal bombs are overall the best. Meteor bombs have the upside of comboing into any attack and gimping but only at high %s. This is much less useful because they have very short fuses, you pull one and have to almost immediately throw it making the very telegraphed. Big bombs don't explode on contact with the opponent which means Link loses his best combo and OoS tool. They do explode when attacked for great stage control with setup but it's not wort the trade off. Only the normal bombs aid recoveries. Meteor and big have nitch uses but aren't useful enough.

tl;dr melee boomerang and quickfire arrows are Link's good customs.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

@ last page A run down of Link's custom moves:
Quickfire arrows vs normal: quickfire are overall better because the enhance mid range zoning and are faster (duh). The transcendent properties are good too. Normal arrows also lock untecked landings and have better use for hitting launched/offstage opponents so they're not that much worse.
Powerbow has no use in competitive smash because it takes too long to charge and you lose it for zoning.

The "melee boomerang" is better than the gale because returning hitstun and better damage. The gale wind pulling wasn't a bad thing though because Link crosses over many times a game and can't keep moving backwards. It screws up spacing for many forward specials and can gimp characters with freefall/unforgiving recoveries. There are a few MUs I'd take the gale over melee rang.
Ripping rang is a complete pos without combo potential.

Normal spin attack is the only one worth using. Wind spin doesn't snap to the ledge or have hitbubble for easily stopped recoveries. Shocking spin has near-no recovery and more lag. Link already has much better kill moves.

Normal bombs are overall the best. Meteor bombs have the upside of comboing into any attack and gimping but only at high %s. This is much less useful because they have very short fuses, you pull one and have to almost immediately throw it making the very telegraphed. Big bombs don't explode on contact with the opponent which means Link loses his best combo and OoS tool. They do explode when attacked for great stage control with setup but it's not wort the trade off. Only the normal bombs aid recoveries. Meteor and big have nitch uses but aren't useful enough.

tl;dr melee boomerang and quickfire arrows are Link's good customs.

Agreed wholeheartedly, I just wanted to make a point that characters like Link were changed and had new options but weren't really put like 10 tiers up. Disagree on Spin Attack, though, I personally love Shocking Spin despite a reduced recovery. I also use Gale currently (reset & getting customs back) solely for damage and not the gale. I do understand the logic though.

 

[blackghost]

th thinking that insists custom moves have no place in compeitive play or somhow breaks the balance of smash 4 isnt paying attention.
we've been down thee paths before
1. ban custom moves because they are hard to unlock
ganon trick shown and 3ds users can help provide movesets
2. ban custom moves because i dont want to learn what these characters can do
dlc comes outadapt or die and patches happen
3. ban custom moves becausedlc characters don have them and it wouldn't be fair
dlc character have come out to dominate. bayonetta salt is everwhere right now and cloud is a force in doubles and mewtwo is a respectable character and mekos is coming out of retirement and will bring lucas into the light
4. custom moves disrupts the "meta"
past weekend at glitch the BEST PLAYER in the custom tournament won with DEFAULT shiek and diddy won evo. used by zero to beat a shiek. the ACTUAL results (not what happened to you persnally) say custom moves change character viability minimally not the entire game's meta.
5. now ooking at this thread there's statments like "my chaacter doesnt get anything" and it really makes me wonder if you have even looked at your moves the guy saying falcon gets nothing hasn't loked at his moves. every character gets something and honestly most moves are either matchup spefic or personal preferences. with the excpetion of counter tree no move can dominate a game if someone knows the matchup. there are some characters tht domniate matchups in default play whether you know the matchup or not.

 

[FallenHero]

1. ban custom moves because they are hard to unlock
ganon trick shown and 3ds users can help provide movesets

Not everybody has a turbo controller or 3DS, and not everybody wants to buy one. Even if you know people who have a 3DS, it probably isn't likely for them to have all the customs/ all the customs you need. I should be able to buy a fighting game and have all the characters and stages without having to deal with RNG. Even if someone does decide to try to grind for customs, they could just end up getting burned out and pushed away from the game mid or post grind.

that's why mkx is dead lol

^^ Like I said before, if this is true this could be a strong reason against customs.

2. ban custom moves because i dont want to learn what these characters can do
dlc comes outadapt or die and patches happen

Like I said before, it can be too much for a new player who wants to play this game competitively to learn and that can seriously hurt the growth of this game. Though don't get me wrong I disagree with the idea of not allowing something because you don't know about it. As far as I know, customs are rarely patched (I only heard of a custom being patched once in this thread months ago and I am not sure if they said which one(s))

3. ban custom moves becausedlc characters don have them and it wouldn't be fair
dlc character have come out to dominate. bayonetta salt is everwhere right now and cloud is a force in doubles and mewtwo is a respectable character and mekos is coming out of retirement and will bring lucas into the light

While I don't see this one as a good reason against customs, non-DLC characters will have more options than DLC characters, even if a character like Ryu or Bayonetta will still be very good in a customs meta.

4. custom moves disrupts the "meta"
past weekend at glitch the BEST PLAYER in the custom tournament won with DEFAULT shiek and diddy won evo. used by zero to beat a shiek. the ACTUAL results (not what happened to you persnally) say custom moves change character viability minimally not the entire game's meta.

Fair enough, though I have not really seen many people try to use this as an argument.

5. now ooking at this thread there's statments like "my chaacter doesnt get anything" and it really makes me wonder if you have even looked at your moves the guy saying falcon gets nothing hasn't loked at his moves. every character gets something and honestly most moves are either matchup spefic or personal preferences. with the excpetion of counter tree no move can dominate a game if someone knows the matchup. there are some characters tht domniate matchups in default play whether you know the matchup or not.

From what I see, not many anti-custom players come to this thread (I think it is because most of us don't care about customs anymore or don't feel like arguing in a thread frequented by about 90% pro customs players) so I usually see you guys just arguing with one person at a time. There was literally one person who tried to use that as in argument recently.

For any player daunted by complexity, there is another enticed by it. Without data, any playerbase impact arguments are hollow, from either side.

You make it sound like it is a 1:1 ratio, but I highly doubt it is near that.

I know, in person and online, more than a handful of players who refuse to use customs off of hearsay or observation alone. Even discounting that, trying something and disliking it doesn't matter when removing or restricting components from a competitive ruleset. But between the bitter drop after EVO and the kneejerk reactions to Kong Cyclone at all skill levels, I, at least, am not convinced that the decision to drop them was made competitively, but by TOs listening to the loudest yelling.

I said this months ago and I will say it again, most people won't play a game they don't like. If the majority of people don't like customs, a majority of smash players might stop playing the game, at least at a competitive level. Even you seem to agree with this since you refuse to play with customs turned off.

lol, whilst I don't agree, both 64, Melee and PM are super hard to get into from a casual standpoint because it's a pain to find a copy of the game, get the right setup, etc.

Those are logistical reasons to stop people from joining the scene, and both 64/Melee have had their greatest growth periods during the last couple of years. Smash 4 is easily the most accessible, so needing to learn new moves shouldn't be a deterring factor to newbs if 64/Melee/PM players have had to deal with worse.

Emulators dude, of anything Smash 4 is the least accessible, because it is the only smash game at this point that you can't get for free. All you really need is a computer that can emulate those games (which does not take much to emulate Melee at least from my experience), an emulator, and the ISOs for these games. A controller is optional and you don't even need to use a GC/N64 controller if you want to use one. Learning to how to get and use an emulator is very easy.

 

[Ninety]

So, did anything interesting for the customs meta happen at Glitch custom singles?