What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[MajorMajora]

In my opinion no custom should be banned, unless it is clearly proven to be broken. This means that move has to be so good, that it dominates at least as hard as Meta Knight in Brawl. It has to be so good that Pro players switch their characters just to use it. If it doesn't make the character better than Sheik (or whatever is 1st on the Tier list), you can't even consider banning it.

My ban criteria for a custom move would have to be the following:

Complete domination of the metagame for at least one month or strongly warping the Metagame for 3 Months.

Complete domitation - Worse than Metaknight in Brawl. Although he was nearly banned, it was only after a very long time, much more than a month. Players had time to adapt.
Strongly warping - Only 3 viable Archetypes: The broken char, the counter to that, the counter to the counter. Everything else not viable. Character Matchups mostly decide who wins (Primarily 7:3 Matchups or worse). Only the same 3-5 characters in top 32 consistently.

Most of the time people will adapt and something is only strong for a short while. It is important to not ban to hastily, because it's almost impossible to unban a wrongly banned move. Once banned you can't prove its innocence, unless some TO takes a risk. Banning is easy, unbanning is not. That's why we have to be extremly conservative with banning.

This guy. This guy. This guy.
Though I would say just being a counter to a strong counter to the top tier isn't exactly broken by any means. I mean, just cause there is some warping of the meta game doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or worse than sheik.

 

[FallenHero]

This guy. This guy. This guy.

Are you saying that because you strongly agree with him or strongly disagree with him?

Though I would say just being a counter to a strong counter to the top tier isn't exactly broken by any means. I mean, just cause there is some warping of the meta game doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or worse than sheik.

This part makes it seem like you mostly agree, but have one thing about it that you disagree with.

 

[Fatmanonice]

How many people are arguably boosted to viable with customs? Haven't seen any custom gameplay in a long time but I do remember that were given sizable boosts but that was back in the summer. I do, however, know that everyone except on this list got noticeable buffs too so would this push some characters into borderline broken territory? Does enter God tier? I know her and had stupidly good custom spreads that easily knocked them up a tier or two back in the day.

 

[ぱみゅ]

How many people are arguably boosted to viable with customs? Haven't seen any custom gameplay in a long time but I do remember that were given sizable boosts but that was back in the summer. I do, however, know that everyone except on this list got noticeable buffs too so would this push some characters into borderline broken territory? Does enter God tier? I know her and had stupidly good custom spreads that easily knocked them up a tier or two back in the day.

Not at all man.
Customs gives them a boost indeed, but none of those characters is even high tier to begin with, maybe except DK, but IMO Kong Cyclone as the most clear upgrade, and whatever other Sidegrade he decides to use don't even have enough synergy with his strongest tool: Cargo Uthrow.
Nothing that actual testing (as in, more than Sea Bird randomly beating an Average Joe) can't confirm.

 

[Rashyboy05]

swear every time I say one thing negative about the smogon meta, there is always someone who can't seem to stand seeing anyone disagree with it's meta

Actually, I'm fine with anyone not liking Smogon's meta, it is not a perfect metagame after all. Hell, 6v6 Singles in general is very unbalanced compared to 4v4 Doubles. I'm more miffed about the fact that people are still accusing Smogon on banning mons because "they couldn't deal with it".

How many people are arguably boosted to viable with customs? Haven't seen any custom gameplay in a long time but I do remember that were given sizable boosts but that was back in the summer. I do, however, know that everyone except on this list got noticeable buffs too so would this push some characters into borderline broken territory? Does enter God tier? I know her and had stupidly good custom spreads that easily knocked them up a tier or two back in the day.

Palutena definitely isn't in God tier in Customs On if EVO results is any indication. And I believe every other character you listed would go up a tier or two in Customs On but still won't dominate the meta. I would definitely put Ganondorf and Duck Hunt Dog into viable territory in Customs On since Dark Fists is imo an upgrade of Dark Dive for Ganondorf and I'm sure Dunnobro has stated a lot of reasons on why Customs Duck Hunt is viable.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Actually, I'm fine with anyone not liking Smogon's meta, it is not a perfect metagame after all. Hell, 6v6 Singles in general is very unbalanced compared to 4v4 Doubles. I'm more miffed about the fact that people are still accusing Smogon on banning mons because "they couldn't deal with it".


Palutena definitely isn't in God tier in Customs On if EVO results is any indication. And I believe every other character you listed would go up a tier or two in Customs On but still won't dominate the meta. I would definitely put Ganondorf and Duck Hunt Dog into viable territory in Customs On since Dark Fists is imo an upgrade of Dark Dive for Ganondorf and I'm sure Dunnobro has stated a lot of reasons on why Customs Duck Hunt is viable.

Also, with the "all or nothing" approach, Sheik, Pikachu, Rosalina etc. all have really strong customs so they would still be dominating

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Actually, I'm fine with anyone not liking Smogon's meta, it is not a perfect metagame after all. Hell, 6v6 Singles in general is very unbalanced compared to 4v4 Doubles. I'm more miffed about the fact that people are still accusing Smogon on banning mons because "they couldn't deal with it".

To be very fair, Mega Rayquaza is ridiculously powerful while its Delta Stream ability is active; hardly anything can take a hit from Mega Rayquaza, which includes even the Pokemon who are normally a huge threat to it. Mega Rayquaza is also the only Pokemon to ever be banned from all competitive battle rules, since unlike most mega evolutions, Rayquaza only has to learn Dragon Ascent to mega evolve; this enables Rayquaza to hold any item that it desires, making it even more broken while mega evolved.

Obviously, you won't get anything like that in Smash 3DS / Wii U, but it does give you an idea on why making something that's too powerful can be a bad thing in a competitive environment.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not at all man.
Customs gives them a boost indeed, but none of those characters is even high tier to begin with, maybe except DK, but IMO Kong Cyclone as the most clear upgrade, and whatever other Sidegrade he decides to use don't even have enough synergy with his strongest tool: Cargo Uthrow.
Nothing that actual testing (as in, more than Sea Bird randomly beating an Average Joe) can't confirm.

Isn't cargo uthrow > Spinning Kong a combo at certain %s? And doesn't it do insane amounts of damage? That's something DK can't do with Kong Cyclone. (Well, he could probably still combo it but it doesn't do nearly as much damage I'm sure.)

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

To be very fair, Mega Rayquaza is ridiculously powerful while its Delta Stream ability is active; hardly anything can take a hit from Mega Rayquaza, which includes even the Pokemon who are normally a huge threat to it. Mega Rayquaza is also the only Pokemon to ever be banned from all competitive battle rules, since unlike most mega evolutions, Rayquaza only has to learn Dragon Ascent to mega evolve; this enables Rayquaza to hold any item that it desires, making it even more broken while mega evolved.

Obviously, you won't get anything like that in Smash 3DS / Wii U, but it does give you an idea on why making something that's too powerful can be a bad thing in a competitive environment.

Trying not to derail the thread but I actually despise Gamefreak's official VGC format.

More on topic, what do you guys think is easier to accomplish; getting customs in general legalized or just Mii fighters and Palutena? While it's true customs in general face more backlash as a whole, Mii and Palu mains seem to have very little fight left in them.

 

[Dinoman96]

Mii Fighters do have a lot of opposition against them, unfortunately, especially from the top players. Just to name a few, ZeRo claims that Miis are "bad for the game". Vinnie (a notable Shiek player) apparently refuses to attend any tournament that allows for custom Miis and also contemplated on leaving the game altogether should they be made legal. MVD claimed that Mii players should just go and "play a real character".

Palutena is probably an even harder sell because unlike the Mii Fighters, she can't use her custom sets when customs are off. We basically would be turning an entire game mode on just for one character, which would probably be seen as really tacky in the eyes of many. Not to mention, people who play other characters that also get improved by customs (ie Ganondorf, Wii Fit Trainer, Kirby, etc) would probably complain how Palutena gets her stuff while their characters don't.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Vinnie (a notable Shiek playable) apparently refuses to attend any tournament that allows for custom Miis and also contemplated on leaving the game altogether should they be made legal.

To add on to Vinnie's hate for Miis. He, at one point in Twitter, compared custom Miis to Mario Party of all things.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

To add on to Vinnie's hate for Miis. He, at one point in Twitter, compared custom Miis to Mario Party of all things.

Mii Fighters do have a lot of opposition against them, unfortunately, especially from the top players. Just to name a few, ZeRo claims that Miis are "bad for the game". Vinnie (a notable Shiek player) apparently refuses to attend any tournament that allows for custom Miis and also contemplated on leaving the game altogether should they be made legal. MVD claimed that Mii players should just go and "play a real character".

Palutena is probably an even harder sell because unlike the Mii Fighters, she can't use her custom sets when customs are off. We basically would be turning an entire game mode on just for one character, which would probably be seen as really tacky in the eyes of many. Not to mention, people who play other characters that also get improved by customs (ie Ganondorf, Wii Fit Trainer, Kirby, etc) would probably complain how Palutena gets her stuff while their characters don't.

All I'm hearing is more reasons to add Mii fighters! If that Vinnie guy doesn't want to earn money because he's an irrational man-child he can be my guest. Besides, he already picked the strongest character in the game, what is he even complaining about?

On a more serious note though, I don't get the hate. They're pretty legit characters with their own moves except you can put funny faces on them if you'd like. Palutena might be a tougher sell indeed, although the game does actively promote her custom moves, actually displaying them as tips and having them all unlocked from the start.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It makes no sense to me when I hear people claim the Miis aren't real fighters or that they're luck based or whatever. They're only a "blank slate" insofar as you can change their appearance and size, but that's done well before you ever get to the CSS, and nowadays I think every tournament that allows Miis specifies that they must be default height/weight so then you're just left with the outfit and hat which are 100% cosmetic. Their alternate specials shouldn't even be an issue since they're all unlocked from the moment you turn the game on.

It's all doubly frustrating because I'm not a particularly notable player in a not particularly notable region, so anything I say is really easy to dismiss by anyone who's not actually looking for alternative arguments. I wish I had the free time to yell at Vinnie et al about this, seriously.

 

[Dinoman96]

I will say, judging by the reaction to moves like Helicopter Kick, I feel like people who play Meta Knight and Zero Suit Samus should feel grateful that specials like Shuttle Loop and Boost Kick are in their default kits, because there's no way anyone would want them to be legal if they just so happened to be customs lol

 

[GeneralLedge]

I wonder, do custom moves being introduced into the meta become more likely or less likely as the meta goes on?

One argument is 'there are too many matchups,' which one would assume becomes less of a problem the longer players are exposed to such matchups. If we play the game long enough that every existing matchup becomes knowledgable enough that things like Shulk's Wind Monado stop boggling the minds of announcers, is it safe to add custom moves then?

Would it be a valid approach to add a smaller handful of custom moves to the current meta at a time? If players are so inept that they can't learn every custom move at once, would adding one custom set per character at a time help ease their understanding of them?

The same could be said for Miis. Trollish "too many matchups" defenses are null if we add so little at a time that a baby could grasp it. Or would this still be too difficult for master players to pick up?

 

[Raijinken]

I wonder, do custom moves being introduced into the meta become more likely or less likely as the meta goes on?

One argument is 'there are too many matchups,' which one would assume becomes less of a problem the longer players are exposed to such matchups. If we play the game long enough that every existing matchup becomes knowledgable enough that things like Shulk's Wind Monado stop boggling the minds of announcers, is it safe to add custom moves then?

Would it be a valid approach to add a smaller handful of custom moves to the current meta at a time? If players are so inept that they can't learn every custom move at once, would adding one custom set per character at a time help ease their understanding of them?

The same could be said for Miis. Trollish "too many matchups" defenses are null if we add so little at a time that a baby could grasp it. Or would this still be too difficult for master players to pick up?

All experience with Smash's community says "No, they become more entrenched in their conservative moveset, and anything removed will never return."

Which is why the sheer scrubbery following EVO'15 was so frustrating.

Any way, to the "Good characters get good customs so increased viability is offset by moving the goalpost" sort of arguments, here's some analysis from both observation and experience.

1: Most people think Sheik's "good" custom is Gravity Grenade. I agree, it's an excellent tool. But in Smash4 in general, Grenade variants of all forms are exceptionally rare in both default and non, as they're rather low reward save on a pretty hard read, and that hard read may be better rewarded with Bouncing Fish or just more f-airs. Even in EVO, by which point default (or Gravity) Grenade was well-known by customs players as a functional and long-range trick to keep Villager from planking, it was ignored in favor of... attempting Bouncing Fish and Fair against a ledge-camp strategy. Ignorance at its finest is probably the only reason Sheik had issues in that matchup, and Villager the worse for it now with the EBT nerfs.
2: The other "good" Sheik custom is a needle that does more shield damage and goes through (trivially) Luma and the Castle Siege statues (increasingly banned in tournaments anyway). It trades this for, to my knowledge, its ability to true combo into Bouncing Fish offstage for a kill.
3: Rosalina gets a serviceable projectile that makes a handful of already miserable matchups trivially more difficult. It also locks Luma into place for a bit, leaving more punish room than Star Bits.
4: Pikachu's infinite from Thunder Wave is long gone leaving him with a range tradeoff for a punish at high percents. Heavy Skull Bash emphasizes how utterly garbage the default is, but even at its best, it's punishable, can get you killed against windboxes/deflections (Mario's still pretty popular by the way), and in general, turns a useless move into a useful move. To this day it's the only move I think even warrants a thought towards banning, but I've yet to see it prove problematic since valid data sources universally decided they prefer a bland-er game.
5: Zamus's customs are pretty mediocre.
6: Mario can do the same things with or without, at roughly the same difficulty.

Basically, the only goalpost argument I can see with validity is Rosalina's gatekeeper status, and of that, I would like significantly more substantial proof before we suddenly and mysteriously start factoring gatekeepers into our rulesets. Else, I would like to introduce Default Sheik as a gatekeeper against about 50 characters.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

All experience with Smash's community says "No, they become more entrenched in their conservative moveset, and anything removed will never return."

Which is why the sheer scrubbery following EVO'15 was so frustrating.

Any way, to the "Good characters get good customs so increased viability is offset by moving the goalpost" sort of arguments, here's some analysis from both observation and experience.

1: Most people think Sheik's "good" custom is Gravity Grenade. I agree, it's an excellent tool. But in Smash4 in general, Grenade variants of all forms are exceptionally rare in both default and non, as they're rather low reward save on a pretty hard read, and that hard read may be better rewarded with Bouncing Fish or just more f-airs. Even in EVO, by which point default (or Gravity) Grenade was well-known by customs players as a functional and long-range trick to keep Villager from planking, it was ignored in favor of... attempting Bouncing Fish and Fair against a ledge-camp strategy. Ignorance at its finest is probably the only reason Sheik had issues in that matchup, and Villager the worse for it now with the EBT nerfs.
2: The other "good" Sheik custom is a needle that does more shield damage and goes through (trivially) Luma and the Castle Siege statues (increasingly banned in tournaments anyway). It trades this for, to my knowledge, its ability to true combo into Bouncing Fish offstage for a kill.
3: Rosalina gets a serviceable projectile that makes a handful of already miserable matchups trivially more difficult. It also locks Luma into place for a bit, leaving more punish room than Star Bits.
4: Pikachu's infinite from Thunder Wave is long gone leaving him with a range tradeoff for a punish at high percents. Heavy Skull Bash emphasizes how utterly garbage the default is, but even at its best, it's punishable, can get you killed against windboxes/deflections (Mario's still pretty popular by the way), and in general, turns a useless move into a useful move. To this day it's the only move I think even warrants a thought towards banning, but I've yet to see it prove problematic since valid data sources universally decided they prefer a bland-er game.
5: Zamus's customs are pretty mediocre.
6: Mario can do the same things with or without, at roughly the same difficulty.

Basically, the only goalpost argument I can see with validity is Rosalina's gatekeeper status, and of that, I would like significantly more substantial proof before we suddenly and mysteriously start factoring gatekeepers into our rulesets. Else, I would like to introduce Default Sheik as a gatekeeper against about 50 characters.

You raise some good points! However, the very thought of Sheik, Pikachu and Rosalina getting even slightly stronger is enough for some people to want to nuke WiiU's with customs on from space.

On a side note, a lot of people in this thread mentioned how arbitrary certain approaches to getting customs legalized are, thinking back on this however, I'm starting to really dislike the concept of premade custom sets for characters. Sure, it's absolutely essential for your opponent to be aware which skills you're about to use against him/her but it does kinda defeat the point of customs in my opinion.

 

[Raijinken]

You raise some good points! However, the very thought of Sheik, Pikachu and Rosalina getting even slightly stronger is enough for some people to want to nuke WiiU's with customs on from space.

On a side note, a lot of people in this thread mentioned how arbitrary certain approaches to getting customs legalized are, thinking back on this however, I'm starting to really dislike the concept of premade custom sets for characters. Sure, it's absolutely essential for your opponent to be aware which skills you're about to use against him/her but it does kinda defeat the point of customs in my opinion.

Even the moveset project strictly exists to speed up the process, or cater to huge-scale events that can't afford the time it takes to have every player go into the menus to set them up. Piecemeal selection could fix that, but as Sakurai seems intent on not providing that, we've gotta deal with what we have.

The point of the project sets was, and still is, to provide the top most-common sets pre-installed. Because in practice, 99% of players aren't going to use a relevant fraction of the 81 moveset combinations. And roughly 90% aren't going to need to pick from more than ten, probably not more than three. That's why the sets were assembled based on board discussion and ordered by approximate demand. If a set isn't on the list currently, it didn't (at the time) have significant support. The further down the list you go, the safer you should be in deleting a set from your setup and leaving space for fresh installs. Of course, if you run a sufficiently small event with regular players, there's no significant need for the project at all: load the most used sets for the regulars onto each setup, and use a 3DS or unlocked consoles for newcomers who want new sets.

The first Smash4 tournament I ran, only my own system had all customs before the event. To get things started I put Ganondorf, Palutena, Lucina, and Lucario's sets on all of the extra systems, since I knew there were attendees who played those characters. Past that, as things were winding down and we only needed three or so systems for the bracket, I set aside one system for friendlies and finished putting the project on the other. By the end, all five systems had the full project. Interestingly, some systems even got the moveset project before they'd unlocked Stadium 2 or Duck Hunt, both of which were legal at the event.

Unfortunately, EVO can't handle letting everyone pick their moveset. Perhaps more unfortunately, most of the old project leaders, like many pro-customs players, simply don't care enough any more, and the rest are busy, leaving the "official" project almost a year old and eight (?) patches earlier.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Even the moveset project strictly exists to speed up the process, or cater to huge-scale events that can't afford the time it takes to have every player go into the menus to set them up. Piecemeal selection could fix that, but as Sakurai seems intent on not providing that, we've gotta deal with what we have.

The point of the project sets was, and still is, to provide the top most-common sets pre-installed. Because in practice, 99% of players aren't going to use a relevant fraction of the 81 moveset combinations. And roughly 90% aren't going to need to pick from more than ten, probably not more than three. That's why the sets were assembled based on board discussion and ordered by approximate demand. If a set isn't on the list currently, it didn't (at the time) have significant support. The further down the list you go, the safer you should be in deleting a set from your setup and leaving space for fresh installs. Of course, if you run a sufficiently small event with regular players, there's no significant need for the project at all: load the most used sets for the regulars onto each setup, and use a 3DS or unlocked consoles for newcomers who want new sets.

The first Smash4 tournament I ran, only my own system had all customs before the event. To get things started I put Ganondorf, Palutena, Lucina, and Lucario's sets on all of the extra systems, since I knew there were attendees who played those characters. Past that, as things were winding down and we only needed three or so systems for the bracket, I set aside one system for friendlies and finished putting the project on the other. By the end, all five systems had the full project. Interestingly, some systems even got the moveset project before they'd unlocked Stadium 2 or Duck Hunt, both of which were legal at the event.

Unfortunately, EVO can't handle letting everyone pick their moveset. Perhaps more unfortunately, most of the old project leaders, like many pro-customs players, simply don't care enough any more, and the rest are busy, leaving the "official" project almost a year old and eight (?) patches earlier.

There might still be a chance for next EVO I hope, and people might start to care again when it draws close. If that succeeds, we need to use the momentum gained to push through to other tournaments.
Best case scenario, we're able to get customs on a few tourney's to use as an example and show whoever is in charge of making the Smash ruleset what the benefits of customs are and how much the community supports it.

 

[GeneralLedge]

All it takes is one of the top players saying "customs are stupid" to undo everything the custom move project set out to do. The lack of continuous support is because most supporters know this first hand. It is stressful, and severely depressing.

While we can look forward to EVO pushing it again, and some attendees playing well with them, the only heads it will turn are those swelled enough to complain about their inclusion at all. Regardless of impact, regardless of players, and regardless of character.

The same players who recently expressed displeasure with the community's attitude towards them, will continue to hold the very same attitude towards custom moves and Miis. But it's okay when they do it. They're the important ones. We are not.

The blinder, deafer, and dumber the counter-arguments are, the less we'll see customs at all. It is far easier to think and be told the sky is orange than it is to look out a window. Look, I have proof! Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

All it takes is one of the top players saying "customs are stupid" to undo everything the custom move project set out to do. The lack of continuous support is because most supporters know this first hand. It is stressful, and severely depressing.

While we can look forward to EVO pushing it again, and some attendees playing well with them, the only heads it will turn are those swelled enough to complain about their inclusion at all. Regardless of impact, regardless of players, and regardless of character.

The same players who recently expressed displeasure with the community's attitude towards them, will continue to hold the very same attitude towards custom moves and Miis. But it's okay when they do it. They're the important ones. We are not.

The blinder, deafer, and dumber the counter-arguments are, the less we'll see customs at all. It is far easier to think and be told the sky is orange than it is to look out a window. Look, I have proof! Tell me I'm wrong.

That IS depressing, perhaps customs fare better in the next smash. They should never have been thrown in with equipment or unlocked piece by piece.
I'm not saying we should stop supporting customs for Smash 4 though, it's still worth fighting for.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That IS depressing, perhaps customs fare better in the next smash. They should never have been thrown in with equipment or unlocked piece by piece.
I'm not saying we should stop supporting customs for Smash 4 though, it's still worth fighting for.

I'm still holding out for a cheap (or free) "unlock all customs" DLC. Unlikely but still.

Failing that, Wii U hacking seems to be advancing at a steady rate, so maybe we'll be able to trick the game into thinking they're already unlocked at some point. It would also open the door for a PM type of thing where we, the players, can take a crack at rebalancing them.

Actually, that's a thought. Maybe this generation's PM shouldn't be focused on making Melee 3.0, but on Smash 5: The Customs Strike Back?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do know that Smash 3DS owners can always transfer their customizations onto Smash Wii U. And since you are able to modify Smash 3DS's save data with certain software tools, you could potentially manipulate your game data so that all of the custom specials are unlocked.

However, this can be quite risky when you consider that the save editors have their set of flaws, and you are given milestone notifications upon reaching a certain number of custom specials collected.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

I do know that Smash 3DS owners can always transfer their customizations onto Smash Wii U. And since you are able to modify Smash 3DS's save data with certain software tools, you could potentially manipulate your game data so that all of the custom specials are unlocked.

However, this can be quite risky when you consider that the save editors have their set of flaws, and you are given milestone notifications upon reaching a certain number of custom specials collected.

Doesn't this only work when you've already unlocked all the customs on the WiiU as well?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Doesn't this only work when you've already unlocked all the customs on the WiiU as well?

You can transfer your customizations from Smash 3DS onto Smash Wii U, but it will NOT unlock the custom specials that you're missing in Smash Wii U.

For an example, if you have Shooting Star Bit unlocked in Smash 3DS, you can transfer a customization that uses it onto Smash Wii U, but you'd still have to unlock Shooting Star Bit in Smash Wii U.

 

[Raijinken]

You can transfer your customizations from Smash 3DS onto Smash Wii U, but it will NOT unlock the custom specials that you're missing in Smash Wii U.

For an example, if you have Shooting Star Bit unlocked in Smash 3DS, you can transfer a customization that uses it onto Smash Wii U, but you'd still have to unlock Shooting Star Bit in Smash Wii U.

For further elaboration, as a result of this, if you want to CHANGE that customization, you have to do it on the 3DS and send it over again. So if you decide you also want Luma Warp, you can't just add Luma Warp (even if you have Luma Warp on the U version) since transferred sets are locked from editing (but not deleting) and transferring.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I saw Mario's customs being brought up and read that they don't change what he can do noticably? I firmly disagree. Customs Mario is crazy and the only reason nobody knows is because no top Mario used Customs at EVO which is disappointing.

Scalding FLUDD alone is absolutely ridiculous but Shocking Cape gives him confirms/kill mixups out of D-Throw immediately, and it is also incredibly disjointed + the momentum it adds is better for recovery. Scalding FLUDD is a disjointed move that is + on shield and also can not be reflected IIRC, it has very little weaknesses. On hit with no/minor charge it sets up for grabs, full charge turns it into a fiery disjointed counterpoke and considering its charge time is the lowest of the three FLUDDs (iirc) this is AMAZING for a lot of things.

Exploding Jump Punch is selectively good, depending on the MU it can turn Mario's Uair combos into Uair > Dead at like 70-80 (even lower if Rage is involved or if they're on Smashville/T&C). Mostly great vs. fastfallers (i.e. a lot of the metagame) and specific floaties.His recovery gets a bit worse but the tradeoffs (especially when combined with the aforementioned customs) are insane. Also Gust Cape is actually pretty bad outside of like, the Mac (and probably Cloud) matchup. HP FLUDD was hyped up, it just sucks IMO.

This isn't an argument for or against Customs, but can we PLEASE stop saying Customs don't make Mario better by a lot? They do. Significantly.

 

[Raijinken]

I saw Mario's customs being brought up and read that they don't change what he can do noticably? I firmly disagree. Customs Mario is crazy and the only reason nobody knows is because no top Mario used Customs at EVO which is disappointing.

Scalding FLUDD alone is absolutely ridiculous but Shocking Cape gives him confirms/kill mixups out of D-Throw immediately, and it is also incredibly disjointed + the momentum it adds is better for recovery. Scalding FLUDD is a disjointed move that is + on shield and also can not be reflected IIRC, it has very little weaknesses.

Exploding Jump Punch is selectively good, depending on the MU it can turn Mario's Uair combos into Uair > Dead at like 70-80 (even lower if Rage is involved or if they're on Smashville/T&C).

This isn't an argument for or against Customs, but can we PLEASE stop saying Customs don't make Mario better by a lot. They do. Significantly.

I understand that, but I also already consider him top five. Relative growth seems little, but if someone'd love to go thrash some top Sheiks with him and convince me he breaks the balance if customs are on, be my guest.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I understand that, but I also already consider him top five. Relative growth seems little, but if someone'd love to go thrash some top Sheiks with him and convince me he breaks the balance if customs are on, be my guest.

Oh it's not a matter of balance breaking, he's just egregiously better period. I think it gives him very strong confirms against most every good character and just generally makes him stronger than he already was. I would argue at least Top 3 considering all the improvements to what was recognized as general weaknesses.

Proper Customs Mario is super duper scary. I didn't mention Fast Fireball either alongside all of this but it's kind of the low note. Fire Orb is just awful.

PS Again this isn't about balance being broken, Customs Mario is just legitimately underrated a lot of the time, but it's not for a bad reason I will admit. Nobody's shown it off but on paper and just logistically the character becomes scarier. It strips away a handful of his flaws (some remain, moderately linear recovery and lack of range on standard tilts and attacks, although Scalding FLUDD helps amend this in the neutral a bit as well) and he doesn't really have to deal with Customs that make his life worse a whole lot since he's so well rounded that a lot of them have native counterplay options even with Default Mario.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Oh it's not a matter of balance breaking, he's just egregiously better period. I think it gives him very strong confirms against most every good character and just generally makes him stronger than he already was. I would argue at least Top 3 considering all the improvements to what was recognized as general weaknesses.

Proper Customs Mario is super duper scary. I didn't mention Fast Fireball either alongside all of this but it's kind of the low note. Fire Orb is just awful.

PS Again this isn't about balance being broken, Customs Mario is just legitimately underrated a lot of the time, but it's not for a bad reason I will admit. Nobody's shown it off but on paper and just logistically the character becomes scarier. It strips away a handful of his flaws (some remain, moderately linear recovery and lack of range on standard tilts and attacks, although Scalding FLUDD helps amend this in the neutral a bit as well) and he doesn't really have to deal with Customs that make his life worse a whole lot since he's so well rounded that a lot of them have native counterplay options even with Default Mario.

Well I think part of the backlash might actually be people who simply do not look forward to the current top tier getting even stronger then they already are. Rosaluma and such are already tough battles without customs. At least, I don't think people are afraid of Ganon or Bowser suddenly achieving Brawl Meta Knight status when they get their custom moves.

 

[Raijinken]

Well I think part of the backlash might actually be people who simply do not look forward to the current top tier getting even stronger then they already are. Rosaluma and such are already tough battles without customs. At least, I don't think people are afraid of Ganon or Bowser suddenly achieving Brawl Meta Knight status when they get their custom moves.

I know people who are afraid of that. Heck, I know people who pointedly ignore evidence and still claim Campager and Wind Kong have no reliable counter play. That's the kind of opposition we're dealing with.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

I know people who are afraid of that. Heck, I know people who pointedly ignore evidence and still claim Campager and Wind Kong have no reliable counter play. That's the kind of opposition we're dealing with.

Well, I myself am a pretty scared of the top characters getting stronger. However, I think the benefit that the other characters get from customs offset this and is definitely worth it.

It's just so sad that I feel so powerless, I don't know any really high profile people who actively advocate customs. EVO 2016 may be our last chance to make this happen.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

After looking at Bowser Jr.'s custom specials more thoroughly, I will say that having Koopa Drift can help his high altitude recovery more. This is especially true if you're using Koopa Drift alongside Koopa Meteor, since Koopa Meteor's horizontal movement is very poor.

 

[Eisal]

Top tiers are still too good.

Bad characters will stay bad if they aren't allowed to use customs, and they can jump up a tier if they are allowed.

It makes the game more interesting to watch, and more interesting if there are lot more characters fighting, and fighting in different ways.

 

[blackghost]

the other argument that is getting stronger is the default roster could begin to fall behind the sheer power and options these new dlc characters have. remebr when everyone acted like customs would put dlc characters at some kind of disadvantage? yeah cloud's limit says high, so do ryu focus and shoryuken. bayonetta already has people running scared and corrin has shenanigans as well. custom moves need to be put in competitive play for real this time. most top tier imprve yes but the low tiers becime viable.
like i tell most players i live by every character gets something. but just becasue i move looks similiar doesnt mean its use is.

 

[Raijinken]

the other argument that is getting stronger is the default roster could begin to fall behind the sheer power and options these new dlc characters have. remebr when everyone acted like customs would put dlc characters at some kind of disadvantage? yeah cloud's limit says high, so do ryu focus and shoryuken. bayonetta already has people running scared and corrin has shenanigans as well. custom moves need to be put in competitive play for real this time. most top tier imprve yes but the low tiers becime viable.
like i tell most players i live by every character gets something. but just becasue i move looks similiar doesnt mean its use is.

And just because a little experimentation a year ago on since-changed moves led people to think they were useless, doesn't mean they're still that way. I also feel like it would be worth doing some doubles-specific investigation, but most people seem to disregard doubles for the most part anyway.

 

[blackghost]

And just because a little experimentation a year ago on since-changed moves led people to think they were useless, doesn't mean they're still that way. I also feel like it would be worth doing some doubles-specific investigation, but most people seem to disregard doubles for the most part anyway.

Smash 4 is the best doubles smash game because team makeup is very flexible and not just pick two top tiers and go win. Double shiek for example is rare.
But with customs there was never a good argument against it ever. But eventually I can see them being implemented but not until smash 5 comes out without them in the game and people realize that they make this game unique

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The funny thing is, having custom specials can at least make the mirror matches feel more interesting.

 

[Raijinken]

The funny thing is, having custom specials can at least make the mirror matches feel more interesting.

I do that with friends who insist customs are OP. I take default and give them whatever customs they complain about, then thrash them because they invariably sacrifice good strategy to spam customs.

But yeah, in regular play, too, they make dittos at least interesting. Unless it's two Villagers or Sonics. But those dittos can't be saved no matter what you do.

 

[Steelballray]

http://www.twitch.tv/uae_smashers UAE tournament with customs. Enjoy.