We are destined to meet in battle! - Wolf+

[Palpi]

All of the NJ tournaments are too far for me Other than inui's tournies.

 

[_Yes!_]

Inui isn't hosting anymore and NJ sucks because they can't let go of their crappy vBrawl.

 

[GuruKid]

Inui isn't hosting anymore and NJ sucks because they can't let go of their crappy vBrawl.

It's like that here in NY too. Peeps just can't let go... But their reasoning is that the real money is to be made in vbrawl right now (both in terms of hosting and winning tournaments), so I can't really blame them.

Sad face... can't wait for this game to become stable.

 

[Yingyay]

people who support vbrawl hard are those that use tilt locks, infinite chain grabs, and MK to counterpick in tourneys (no offense mk mains. you guys couldn't know that sakurai imbued MK with satan's essence)

 

[rinoH]

so how do you guys like the new update with Wolf's side b being like CF's knee i personally love it and you can combo into it with a back throw or up throw if you predict right

 

[Palpi]

Wow. I guess I will have to start hosting then. I was thinking about late July for a brawl+ tournament.

Also, I havn't tried out the side B in the new code set yet...I am not updated!

 

[yummynbeefy]

wolf rocks so hard in brawl+ he has a good projectile, sexy combos, and d-throw tech chase only thing bad is his very small sweet spot for recovery

 

[Palpi]

FOX! The one who can pretty much do anything at anytime and work.

/discuss

Please post any knowledge you currently have of this match-up for both sides of it. Thank you!

 

[_Yes!_]

Fooooooox <333333

Fox can outcamp Wolf like crazy, so defensively Fox wins.

They probably **** each other in combo'ing, but Fox can overwhelm Wolf.

Fox wins 8D

 

[Jon64]

Well, consider that both are packing reflectors, it's pretty hard for fox/wolf to outcamp one another. Actually, if fox gets his laser reflected, it'll come back all the way, but with wolf, his projectile usually falls short of himself when reflected, so he won't even have to worry about dodging them.


From there, both characters can combo the poopie out of each other, and have very reliable killing moves once the %s get up there. It'd be a very close trade of combos/strings into fishing for kill moves at high %.

I can see fox snatching the stock advantage with some gimpy shine spikes though. though. His Usmash probably kills at a lower % than wolf's smashes too.


Wolf will just have to play harder and not get gimped.

 

[_Yes!_]

Well, consider that both are packing reflectors, it's pretty hard for fox/wolf to outcamp one another. Actually, if fox gets his laser reflected, it'll come back all the way, but with wolf, his projectile usually falls short of himself when reflected, so he won't even have to worry about dodging them.

roffle I love this response. When a space animal uses his shine, he lags while reflecting the projectile. So in essence, mindlessly holding shine is detrimental, especially vs a fox who can approach so fast with lasers. If anything, fox would WANT wolf to shine his lasers so he can close in and get a free combo.

 

[Jon64]

You can easily drop the reflector if you see he's shdl-ing and coming at you. Might even be able to punish a rushed approach.

 

[leafgreen386]

You can easily drop the reflector if you see he's shdl-ing and coming at you. Might even be able to punish a rushed approach.

I'd argue that fox's lasers are about the most pointless projectile to try to reflect. The shine lag is abusable, and it's all for... what? An extra 2%? I'd rather just shield them or even take the hit (if close) than shine. Unlike other projectiles, fox's lasers offer no stun on hit, so it's not even like you can really gain any significant advantage from a successful reflection.

 

[Palpi]

Jon, playing hard is not taken in to consideration in match-up theory unless saying they need to play better to win. Say Fox beats wolf in theory. That decision is made and discussed at the highest of each characters metagame, not who plays better. In a tournament it could be different, but in theory it is always discussion at the top of the character's metagame.

 

[Jon64]

I didn't say wolf had an advantage over fox. I suggested the same thing you're suggesting. If the wolf player has to play harder to win, obviously it's not a good matchup, but it's still perfectly possible for him to win.

 

[_Yes!_]

Possible, but not as likely as Fox winning.

 

[Swordplay]

But matchups are not about practice.

Matchups are all about theory and practice (AKA results) back it up.


Anyway, I think Fox has an advantage but not by much.
Both characters have sub-par and gimpable recoveries,
Both characters combo the other, well...
Wolf has more range than fox but that doesn't matter that much against fox who's speed negates that advantage and can take advantage of wolfs lag easier.

As a person who plays wolf, I find myself trying to space and bait Fox's with bair and punish mistakes. I play a lot of disjointed characters so that mindset works for me usually but this is one of the matchups I have trouble with. I usually end up still needing to counterpick.......I'd say slight fox advantage

 

[ZodiakLucien]

a defensive fox would get destroyed by wolf. fox is bad at camping, his strength is his combos and speed.

 

[_Yes!_]

a defensive fox would get destroyed by wolf. fox is bad at camping, his strength is his combos and speed.

Fox is great at camping lol...

 

[StarshipGroove]

Well, Wolf could jump or roll of his shine after deflecting the lasers.

 

[_Yes!_]

...and Fox could easily catch him? The point of camping isn't to stay away from your opponent; it's to make your opponent mess up can punish him for being off guard...

 

[StarshipGroove]

You say that he lags while reflecting the projectile, but he could simply cancel the animation by jumping or dodging, which is pretty fast.

edit: sure the damage of the reflected lasers isn't much, but cancelling the shine might catch the opponent off guard.

 

[Palpi]

It is like Zoning with Marth. You want to keep everyone in your tippered fair range. Few characters can hit you safely from that position. Fox, by camping is trying to get you into one of fox's beneficial zones for punishment via uber comboage.

 

[Persona]

What else is there to say about Wolf? He has great ground game, with plenty of moves to throw the opponent off guard. If the opponent, or opponents, is/are playing the distance game, Wolf has his blaster, his reflector, and he can close the gap with up-b and side-b. Overall, an 8/10 in my opinion.

 

[_Yes!_]

You say that he lags while reflecting the projectile, but he could simply cancel the animation by jumping or dodging, which is pretty fast.

edit: sure the damage of the reflected lasers isn't much, but cancelling the shine might catch the opponent off guard.

You can JC shines? Like melee speed? :o

 

[Swordplay]

To be fair I think the only way wolf can with this matchup is through spacing and a bait game that uses bair as the core. (especially RAR bairs) You can also approach other ways if you have an advantageous position but that is not always the case against fox because his speed puts him in good positions more often that not.


I think its too risky for wolf to try to outcombo fox cause it won't happen. And fox can out camp wolf and capitalize on his mistakes with his speed.

Wolfs best bet is to play a mid range bait and spacing game. Pick a range where its to risky for fox to camp lasers due to punishment but still to far to approach with his light speed. Use smashes as punishes only.



My opinions may be way off but I think wolf has a slight advantage in the recovery game. Both up-b's suck and are easy to gimp. I feel like Fox's illusion takes a path where it is easy to hit him out of hit with a higher priority move. But wolfs.........(Thank god that forward special goes on an up-angle) It gives him a little more versatility IF you have good DI. (And I do for I played Link ALOT and had to learn it). Plus wolf has scarring as a last resort so meh.......

Fox's only real gimp move is the shine in my opinion and I can usually get around that better than my friends fox can get around my dair / bair combination........................

Wolf has advantageous matchups against good characters, TRUST ME, I just down think this is one of them.

==================================================================

One of the reasons I picked up Wolf in B+ is because I like how he played similar to my other characters. Good spacing but recovery needs work so thatch just my opinion and style....(AKA, I play spacing characters, so most of my opinion comes from that point of view.)

 

[_Yes!_]

lol if you can predict wolf's upb wolf gets *****.

 

[Swordplay]

I don't use up-b to recover I use illusion (canceled illusions too.... I like its trajectory :D) Wolfs illusion cancel kicks so much ***......Timing is always challenging to learn......


I'd say its easier to predict fox's recovery pattern......

 

[_Yes!_]

Well they both equally suck. Fox can punish wolf alot harder than wolf can punish fox though. I mained wolf in vbrawl and I use him in brawl+ so I know all about his recovery and timing the side b as well. It's not difficult to read/punish. Same for fox, but like i said, fox punishes wolf harder.

 

[Swordplay]

Well they both equally suck. Fox can punish wolf alot harder than wolf can punish fox though. I mained wolf in vbrawl and I use him in brawl+ so I know all about his recovery and timing the side b as well. It's not difficult to read/punish. Same for fox, but like i said, fox punishes wolf harder.

Your right both suck equally as much. And I also agree that Fox punishes wolf harder offstage.

I disagree though on the easiness of punishment. I think fox is slighty easier to bair fox than shine spike wolf.. (Not by much though. And maybe I should take into account I am a better player than my friend. Though, I feel like I should know something about dealing with bad recoveries and gimping them as a guy who has mained link since 64)

 

[StarshipGroove]

You can JC shines? Like melee speed? :o

Yes, but only while deflecting a projectile. See example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8uw5-b7e0s
Ness, Lucas, Fox and Wolf can all use this tech, perhaps Pit too

 

[_Yes!_]

Your right both suck equally as much. And I also agree that Fox punishes wolf harder offstage.

I disagree though on the easiness of punishment. I think fox is slighty easier to bair fox than shine spike wolf.. (Not by much though. And maybe I should take into account I am a better player than my friend. Though, I feel like I should know something about dealing with bad recoveries and gimping them as a guy who has mained link since 64)

You misunderstand. I mean predicting recovery to the stage. If wolf goes for the ledge it's simple edgehog, just like fox. However, wolf will usually scar the stage or land on the stage predictably.

Fox has rising fair, and shine stalling. Two more options that wolf doesn't have. It's easier for fox to keep opponents guessing.

Yes, but only while deflecting a projectile. See example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8uw5-b7e0s
Ness, Lucas, Fox and Wolf can all use this tech, perhaps Pit too

If they just grab then...Jump?

 

[GuruKid]

Yes, but only while deflecting a projectile. See example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8uw5-b7e0s
Ness, Lucas, Fox and Wolf can all use this tech, perhaps Pit too

Shrug.

Even with this technique, reflecting Fox's lasers would still be dumb for Wolf to even try. Why waste time doing that (for a measly 2% with NO stun) when your time would be better spent positioning yourself for a well-placed combo starter or KO move?

The technique in question may be useful against certain other projectile-based characters (when projectile hitstun can offer you good opportunities), but this would just be reckless against Fox.

 

[_Yes!_]

Thanks guru. I don't know the effectiveness of these little "AT's" since I don't have the game, but I know alot about fox so I can argue like 90% of the time and know what I'm talking about.

Amazing sig...I wish I was good at photoshop

 

[goodoldganon]

You should know Yes! that we are experimenting with moving the hitbox on both Fox and Falco's illusions back. This should give the edge to Wolf in the recovery department in the matchup. Now, that being said they are still both awful recoveries and neither should be a tipping point in the matchup unless that is the last possible thing left.

I think it's 60/40 Fox. Maybe 55/45. Wolf has a better spacing game and off the stage game but Fox will punish Wolf significantly harder and can camp Wolf if he can stay out of Wolf's comfort zone in the matchup (I'm talking about the zone SP talked about.)

Overall, Fox's better punishing game gives him the edge. It's human to make mistakes and Fox has the speed and skill to punish quickly and effectively.

 

[_Yes!_]

That's a stupid idea wtf....Why are you doing that? I'm completely against it. Their recoveries already suck balls, why are you nerfing them even more?

 

[goodoldganon]

That's a stupid idea wtf....Why are you doing that? I'm completely against it. Their recoveries already suck balls, why are you nerfing them even more?

Cause Fox and Falco can camp everyone who isn't incredibly fast by just spamming lasers and then using the side-b to dash through. It will nerf recovery for sure, but that isn't the main point. Try and catch them with Ganondorf, Bowser, or the other heavies. Even Luigi has trouble with them. Bring it up in the backroom if you have a problem or whenever we can get that nightly out.

 

[_Yes!_]

already did. enjoy the ensuing arguments.

 

[Sneak8288]

wtf is this nonsense?... if ur wolf and u get camped, ur bad... wolf has a shine plus a laser.. fox and falco can already get hit out of their side b fairly easy and it would only make spacies getting gimped that much easier with their already horrific recovery since there is no auto ledge grab. If anything.... the way side b is now u can just jab it and it knocks them out of it. Unecessary changes will be the death of brawl+

 

[Jon64]

I wouldn't mind the illusion having no priority at all and a late hitbox as long as they got reduced ending/landing lag as a trade off.