Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

...You know you just ignored the entire paragraph describing what Mewtwo can do out of a ledgedrop and how it helps compensate for his other ledge options right? Well, here's another: reorienting away from the stage to attack with a spaced bair.

Of course I know usmash is fantastic anti-air, but no sane Mewtwo who knows anything about the Mario Bros. is going to just jump at Doc. In fact, I can't think of a single scenario where Mewtwo has no choice but to contend with it, or any other challenge scenario. Doc just doesn't have the range or mobility to exert that kind of pressure. Contrast with Ryu who has good ranged, strong footsies combined with decent mobility that can restrict Mewtwo's options.

Yes, Mewtwo has the tools to hold an advantage. It's called being super lame and never committing to anything unsafe while running circles around Doc. Really, if Mewtwo finds himself in a situation he doesn't like there's little stopping him from simply slipping awayo seize the advantage later by charging Shadow Ball.

I don't believe ledgedrop Bair towards the stage is even possible assuming Doc is on stage. Mewtwo can't change directions mid-jump so to re-orient he'd have to land on stage....near Doc (assuming he would even Bair towards anyone when you can just Fair). If Dr. Mario is doing that to ANY character on the ledge then uh....unless they've just regrabbed then I'd ask what the hell they were doing lol.

Also of all the people scared of Shadow Ball (there are a few) I don't believe Doc is one of them, personally. Depending on distance he can ping it back and Mewtwo can do the whole tennis thing but at max distance you should just be PSing anyways since if you're crisp it's not too bad to PS.

What's he doing that forces DOC to go in? If you want to talk about playing lame....I wasn't going to bring this up but now I'm 100% curious as to how he's gonna force Doc to approach if he feels like playing lame.

I don't mean to discredit anything you say but ledgedrop Bair is far from threatening unless Doc is for some reason going offstage to hit you...on the ledge.

The character just doesn't scare me if I wait with Doc, haven't ran into an experience that's changed my mind and what I've seen of him in comp. play it's not happening very soon either =P. Your arguments are sound but they're not sound enough to convince me that Doc actually has a disadvantage in this matchup. I'm probably not going to change my stance on this until the character shows up vs. Doc and actually shows me this happening so I'm going with my own judgment here. Just gonna have to agree to disagree.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I disagree. Kirby doesn't have great range on those moves and disjointed moves such as Marth's Fair just straight out beat any move Kirby has. Attempting to gimp Kirby offstage is a great idea.

Like how Dee-Smashing said, not when you're below Kirby; granted since Kirby has multiple jumps he will most likely be at an advantage against the opponent depending on who it is

Honestly, it's best to gimp Kirby when he's using Final Cutter, since the move doesn't even auto-snap and has a horrible 23 frames of start-up.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't believe ledgedrop Bair towards the stage is even possible assuming Doc is on stage. Mewtwo can't change directions mid-jump so to re-orient he'd have to land on stage....near Doc (assuming he would even Bair towards anyone when you can just Fair). If Dr. Mario is doing that to ANY character on the ledge then uh....unless they've just regrabbed then I'd ask what the hell they were doing lol.

Also of all the people scared of Shadow Ball (there are a few) I don't believe Doc is one of them, personally. Depending on distance he can ping it back and Mewtwo can do the whole tennis thing but at max distance you should just be PSing anyways since if you're crisp it's not too bad to PS.

What's he doing that forces DOC to go in? If you want to talk about playing lame....I wasn't going to bring this up but now I'm 100% curious as to how he's gonna force Doc to approach if he feels like playing lame.

I don't mean to discredit anything you say but ledgedrop Bair is far from threatening unless Doc is for some reason going offstage to hit you...on the ledge.

The character just doesn't scare me if I wait with Doc, haven't ran into an experience that's changed my mind and what I've seen of him in comp. play it's not happening very soon either =P. Your arguments are sound but they're not sound enough to convince me that Doc actually has a disadvantage in this matchup. I'm probably not going to change my stance on this until the character shows up vs. Doc and actually shows me this happening so I'm going with my own judgment here. Just gonna have to agree to disagree.

All right, maybe I didn't make myself clear about ledge drop reorientation...

What it is is Mewtwo ledgedropping, moving away from the stage, using confusion to make himself face the other way while altering his momentum, then doing a double jump back towards the stage and finally using bair to attack. Bair is the preferred move to attack with here because of it's range and disjoint. It's definitely much safer when rising.

As for the standoff, I'll just charge my shot and wait. Sooner or later you'll do something that exposes you to it, and in the meantime I'll just poke safely with my tail moves and dsmash.

 

[Megamang]

Well, considering im gonna edgeguard him horizontally, kirby is still one of the easiest characters to gimp.


While shadow ball is good, you gotta be careful of the cape since a reflected shadow ball is gonna mess you up. I know m2 has a reflector too, but due to start up it can often not be an option (close range SB vs prediction based cape).

 

[TheJolteon]

Shadow also travels kinda slow if not reflected and mewtwo players would need to have amazing reaction time to reflect something that is tennis.

 

[FullMoon]

When Pikachu uses Quick Attack, he sort of "pancakes" after each dash which stretches out his vertical hurtbox substantially, letting you hit him by putting hitboxes above or below where he's headed.

So it happens everytime Pikachu reappears? And does it really only last two frames? Doesn't sound too abusable to me though still good to know.

 

[Megamang]

Of all the times its happened to me via flipkick, it has never been the spike hitbox. I wonder of there is something special about this hitbox.

 

[LancerStaff]

So it happens everytime Pikachu reappears? And does it really only last two frames? Doesn't sound too abusable to me though still good to know.

Maybe not for Greninja, but that's potentially free Nairs for the Marios and the like. Actually, if it happens after the first attack too then Pika's recovery is sounding pretty abusable to me.

 

[meleebrawler]

Shadow also travels kinda slow if not reflected and mewtwo players would need to have amazing reaction time to reflect something that is tennis.

Yeah, but the slowness also helps the Mewtwo player react to the reflect in the first place. And with the recoil it's not like Mewtwo is going to try to dash after it like he does with little balls and leave himself vulnerable. Plus as long as Mewtwo has time Confusion is fairly generous in reflect timing.

So it happens everytime Pikachu reappears? And does it really only last two frames? Doesn't sound too abusable to me though still good to know.

When predictable Pikachus get too Quick Attack-happy in neutral I like to surprise usmash them as they do it.

 

[Nu~]

Maybe not for Greninja, but that's potentially free Nairs for the Marios and the like. Actually, if it happens after the first attack too then Pika's recovery is sounding pretty abusable to me.

I know with pacman, I simply throw out Nairs whenever I see a pikachu recovering offstage or when they get predictable with QA on stage

 

[Wintropy]

What names has Diddy taken recently? Diddy's strongest solo main in NA, MVD, kind of bustered at the last two majors, BH5 and MLG. Zinoto also got a pretty mediocre placing at BH5 and didn't make any upsets. ZeRo is ZeRo, and also only chooses to play Diddy in a few select matchups. His performance may speak for the Diddy/Sheik and Diddy/ZSS matchups, but it doesn't say as much about Diddy's tournament viability. I'm also not aware of any significant reps he has in Europe or Japan (Kamemushi? Also plays Mega Man though).

Oh, okay, fair enough. I was under the impression he still got good results for some reason, guess I haven't kept up with the times as much as I thought I had!

To me, Diddy's MU spread seems like Pit+. Not saying he loses or beats the same characters, just that it seems like he doesn't really dominate any significant characters to my knowledge, but all his MUs are winnable. His overall spread is better than Pit though. Of course I'm replying to a Pit expert so I could be eating my words shortly, lol.

No, that's pretty much dead-on. His overall spread is definitely better than Pit's.

 

[M32]

That QA thing looks weird af. Does it happen also when he snaps to ledges? Doesn't seem so otherwise it'd be punishable af, but I'd like confirmation

 

[Kaladin]

That QA thing looks weird af. Does it happen also when he snaps to ledges? Doesn't seem so otherwise it'd be punishable af, but I'd like confirmation

It does happen if he ledgesnaps, yes.

Edit: I got my buddy to help me test various recovery methods, and it's fairly easy to time your spike of choice if you know if he wants to go high or low, and how to line yourself up with him vertically.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It all depends, like I said, a smart Kirby won't be too easy to gimp, and you need to be careful unless your above him, he can fight back if you get into his small range
So depending on what options you have, he can be easy, or very troublesome.
Besides if Kirby uses FC horizontally to the stage and not below, you are more likely then not going to fail to hit him.
It is Transcendent so nothing can beat the move, its a huge disjoint and his best ranged move. If you had Jiggs Nair and he were to use FC below the ledge, just drop that long *** lasting hitboxes above him and you beat it.

 

[Trifroze]

Link has more setups from Bombs than Toon Link does and dishes out more damage from said setups. While Toon Link has F-Air/U-Air setups, Link can set up from his bombs on opponents with ALL of his aerials, even B-Air and Spin Attack. Link also has far better combo setups than Toon Link, with Link being able to D-Throw > U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air, with the U-Air being able to kill reliably off of a good and quick double jump. Link's also a better character with his edge-rising (when you let go of a ledge, jump and use an attack to get back up) aerials with his F-Air, which leads to good shield poking.

If you play with Link too, you know that his N-Air dirty late hitbox will cause the opponent to tumble at certain damages into an untechable spot. This can allow Link to follow up with F-Tilt, Dash Attack or even F-Smash. Toon Link can't do the same thing with any of his aerials.

Link's got the better footsies game with the range, has the better edge-guarding game with multiple attacks, better combo game, kill game and arguably a better projectile and zoning game. I don't know why you believe Toon Link's better just because of mobility and some aerial setups, and even a kill throw, but he lacks the combo and kill potential that Link has.

Heck, Toon Link's aerials have more endlag and landing lag in general than Link's. That isn't good for a character with better mobility, that just hinders him. I believe Link's better than Toon Link, despite mobility problems, and Link can be a solid 'middle of the tier list' character.

Toon Link doesn't need to land with his aerials because he can use them while rising and then fade back, while Link's hitboxes are too high up aside from nair, and bair/fair are awkward double hit moves regardless. You can't call Link more mobile when both his dash and air speed are bottom 8 in the game, his jumpsquat is as long as Ganondorf's and he can't fade back and forth in the air at all. Arguments like this don't help hide any bias here.

Toon Link's setups work so well because of how easily he moves around in the air and because of how long he stays there due to his floatiness and good jumps. He also actually has a runaway game and combined with bombs and boomerangs this is a pretty big deal. Link's ground options are better, hence he still keeps up, but they don't play to the character's strengths the same way Toon Link's mobility does with his projectiles.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One thing that I disagree with about most tier lists is how low Little Mac is always rated.

IMO, he's in the 25th-35th area. From what I've seen from the best Mac's is that they can avoid going off-stage entirely from the pure stage control Mac forces (of course it's MU dependent). Even when they do go off-stage, it is more likely than not that they will make it back safely (this is also a shoutout to how crappy we are at edgeguards atm but that's besides the point right now).

The kill power, mobility, every aspect of his frame data, kill setups, damage, god-tier normals, and armored smashes are too much of a factor here. He's so slept on.

Mac's recovery realistically is not the absolute worst in the game if he has room to recover high. Its sometimes a 50/50, but the fact he has a counter at the very least forces people to actually guess to gimp him.

Now Robin in contrast is a very overrated character who should never, ever make it back without taking damage or dying given how impossible it is for him to defend against reactive edgeguards. Mac sometimes can and will make it back unscathed in several matchups if the player behind him has a brain. Mac's recovery is bottom 10, maybe bottom 5, but it's definitely not the absolute worst in the game.

Another thing to note is that shield got a lot worse against Mac, and repeated Jolt Haymaker buffs added up a lot. He was legitimately very bad after the first wave of nerfs early in the 3DS era.

 

[Ghostbone]

Robin's aerials are actually threatening, and she can stall in the air or b-reverse air-dodge with neutral-b, claiming her recovery is worse than Mac's in any situation is laughable.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Link making top 16 in a tournament?
Link, making top 16.

Not to mention Shulk and Lucas, with a solo Doc taking 5th.

 

[TurboLink]

Mac's recovery realistically is not the absolute worst in the game if he has room to recover high. Its sometimes a 50/50, but the fact he has a counter at the very least forces people to actually guess to gimp him.

Now Robin in contrast is a very overrated character who should never, ever make it back without taking damage or dying given how impossible it is for him to defend against reactive edgeguards. Mac sometimes can and will make it back unscathed in several matchups if the player behind him has a brain. Mac's recovery is bottom 10, maybe bottom 5, but it's definitely not the absolute worst in the game.

Another thing to note is that shield got a lot worse against Mac, and repeated Jolt Haymaker buffs added up a lot. He was legitimately very bad after the first wave of nerfs early in the 3DS era.

Little Mac's forward smash is noticeably more safe on shield than before.

 

[ARGHETH]

Mac's recovery realistically is not the absolute worst in the game if he has room to recover high. Its sometimes a 50/50, but the fact he has a counter at the very least forces people to actually guess to gimp him.

Now Robin in contrast is a very overrated character who should never, ever make it back without taking damage or dying given how impossible it is for him to defend against reactive edgeguards. Mac sometimes can and will make it back unscathed in several matchups if the player behind him has a brain. Mac's recovery is bottom 10, maybe bottom 5, but it's definitely not the absolute worst in the game.

Another thing to note is that shield got a lot worse against Mac, and repeated Jolt Haymaker buffs added up a lot. He was legitimately very bad after the first wave of nerfs early in the 3DS era.

So, Little Mac's recovery isn't the absolute worst if he has room to recover high but Robin's is still the worst given the recovering high option?
The problem is, Robin has huge disjointed aerials, good aerial speed, and a spike if you mess up.
Also, Raziek seemed to be able to make it back fine vs Zero. https://youtu.be/7gsFHlj0PmE

 

[C0rvus]

When people try and determine which Link is better, I want people to remember how important mobility is. Consider Robin, who has incredible strengths, yet is very slow (obviously not his only flaw lol). Not viable. Consider Sonic, who pretty much only has his speed. Top 5 character. Mobility is the most desirable trait in the game. Bottom line.

 

[Tri Knight]

The odds of Mac really making it back from off stage is terrible even without the opponent edgeguarding. Okay, hes got counter, bait it out and he's probably gonna die from just doing that. Worst recovery in the game, easily. But his stage control capabilities is still incredible.

Edit: C0rvus mobility is one of the most important attributes in this game but Tink still isn't extremely better than Link. Maybe a little bit, but not by that much. It's still pretty tough when you factor everything in.

 

[NegaNixx]

Can we stop saying bad recoveries aren't bad. They're still exploitable and bad. Doesn't matter bottom five or bottom 1 bad is bad and irrelevant easy to beat out.

Mac, Robin, Doc, ROB, all have bad recoveries, get in their ways and edge guard them. Better than we thought doesn't mean good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can we stop saying bad recoveries aren't bad. They're still exploitable and bad. Doesn't matter bottom five or bottom 1 bad is bad and irrelevant easy to beat out.

Mac, Robin, Doc, ROB, all have bad recoveries, get in their ways and edge guard them. Better than we thought doesn't mean good.

Doc's recovery is not bottom 5, and assuming good DI to afford high recovery space, Tornado stalling is a robust enough mixup to bait edgeguard commitments and make it back safely. Good players fundamentally DI well, so what matters more is momentum mixups.

ROB's recovery is punishable but not bottom 5. He can stall out some edgeguard attempts with smart use of his Up-B or D-air in some situations, and recover super high and try for B reverses for vaguely viable attempts to land safely.

The five worst recoveries in this game in order probably are Robin, Roy, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Mac.

Robin's aerials are actually threatening, and she can stall in the air or b-reverse air-dodge with neutral-b, claiming her recovery is worse than Mac's in any situation is laughable.

Robin doesn't get a lot of distance without the extremely telegraphed and easily reaction punished Up-B. Robin can never recover low without getting manhandled. Mac's Up-B however has a decent hitbox and sometimes protects him reasonably as he aims for the ledge.

And a counter >>> medium range aerials for defending against edgeguards as long as Mac DIed well enough for a high recovery.

Robin absolutely, positively, should never make it back without getting punished simply because you can always wait for Elwind and he has no way to get around a reactive edgeguard. Even if he recovers high, he has no landing options or any real momentum mixups aside from the heavily punishable Elwind. Mac fundamentally needs to be baited and read to get edgeguarded if he has room to recover high.

 

[Wintropy]

When people try and determine which Link is better, I want people to remember how important mobility is. Consider Robin, who has incredible strengths, yet is very slow (obviously not his only flaw lol). Not viable. Consider Sonic, who pretty much only has his speed. Top 5 character. Mobility is the most desirable trait in the game. Bottom line.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Mobility is a very desirable trait, yeah, but having it doesn't instantly make you a good or "objectively better than X" character.

The Falchions and Roy have great mobility. Palutena's pretty fast. Mac is a blinder on the ground. Mewtwo's quite quick. Yet none of them are considered viable (maybe the Fire Emblem characters to an extent).

Mobility isn't much good if you don't have the kit, frame data, options and safety to back it up. I'm going to be honest and say I think safety is equally as important as mobility. It wouldn't matter much if Sonic was as fast as he is but had Dedede's frame data (with the strength that he has now), he'd just be a fast yet unsafe mess of a character. Gotta have that balance.

Mac fundamentally needs to be baited and read to get edgeguarded if he has room to recover high.

Yeah but none of that matters when I'm going to grab him as soon as he hits the ground and throw him off again anyway.

You have way too much faith in Mac's potential.

 

[NegaNixx]

Doc's recovery is not bottom 5, and assuming good DI to afford high recovery space, Tornado stalling is a robust enough mixup to bait edgeguard commitments and make it back safely.

It is still exploitable thats the main thing that matters. Bottom 5 bottom ten bottom 20 doesn't matter if it's still bad. If it is disrupted it will generally fail.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It is still exploitable thats the main thing that matters. Bottom 5 bottom ten bottom 20 doesn't matter if it's still bad. If it is disrupted it will generally fail.

But the fact is, Doc and ROB recoveries are not bad.

They're not braindead and they can be hard read in some situations or certain very high tier edgeguards that would give most of the cast problems do affect them, but a good player has more than enough options to make it back safely very consistently with Doc's recovery, as well as ROB's.

Robin is a recovery that will never make it back without taking damage. ROB and Doc are nowhere near that level of bad, and their recoveries are about average, like about 80% or so of the cast.

The fact Mac SOMETIMES can make it back unscatched cannot be discounted when arguing who has the worst recovery. You can literally just wait and react for Robin's recovery, and he will get hit. Mac at least sometimes makes this a 50/50.

 

[Vyrnx]

On the topic of recoveries, I don't understand how Ness's recovery doesn't hurt him that much when people discuss viability. I know that as a Samus main I can cover his DJ recovery with a bomb and then hit him out of his up b with nair and kill him. IMO almost every character has a pretty easy time edge guarding Ness. I could definitely be wrong/missing something, I'm not hugely knowledgable about Ness, but his recovery seems like it's bad enough that it would hold him back from being consistently threatening in tournaments. I'm not primarily talking about Rosalina's down b either, just most of the roster in general.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the topic of recoveries, I don't understand how Ness's recovery doesn't hurt him that much when people discuss viability. I know that as a Samus main I can cover his DJ recovery with a bomb and then hit him out of his up b with nair and kill him. IMO almost every character has a pretty easy time edge guarding Ness. I could definitely be wrong/missing something, I'm not hugely knowledgable about Ness, but his recovery seems like it's bad enough that it would hold him back from being consistently threatening in tournaments. I'm not primarily talking about Rosalina's down b either, just most of the roster in general.

I agree Ness is overrated.

His bad recovery, and the fact grab reward has universally increased among most of the cast make him much less compelling of a competitive pick, generally speaking. Buffed sword characters do him no favors either, meta-wise.

The simple fact you can GET HIT by Ness's recovery to kill him is horrible for him unless he counterpicks something like Halberd.

 

[Wintropy]

Does it really matter whose recovery is the worst, second-worst, etc? Point is, Mac's gameplan isn't sustainable in top-level play, ergo he isn't viable. Having a recovery that isn't really that bad doesn't mean anything when it's tethered to a character that still dies about half as early as the rest of the roster.

It's interesting to discuss just for theory, but it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make Mac a better character or R.O.B. a worse character.

 

[Raziek]

But the fact is, Doc and ROB recoveries are not bad.

They're not braindead and they can be hard read in some situations or certain very high tier edgeguards that would give most of the cast problems do affect them, but a good player has more than enough options to make it back safely very consistently with Doc's recovery, as well as ROB's.

Robin is a recovery that will never make it back without taking damage. ROB and Doc are nowhere near that level of bad, and their recoveries are about average, like about 80% or so of the cast.

The fact Mac SOMETIMES can make it back unscatched cannot be discounted when arguing who has the worst recovery. You can literally just wait and react for Robin's recovery, and he will get hit. Mac at least sometimes makes this a 50/50.

You very clearly don't actually play against this character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gsFHlj0PmE

Please tell me how many times I actually got punished on my recovery?

Because I can tell you right now it's definitely not 100%, so saying 'Never' is simply objectively incorrect.

 

[Trifroze]

Robin's recovery is fine. Another thing that people should stop doing is claiming that you can react to moves that you clearly can't react to. Whenever people say you can react to ~15 frame moves for instance, that's realistic in optimal conditions yes, but only if you're ready for them and not focusing on anything else, and that's just with a frame 1-3 actions like shields, spotdodges and airdodges. People can't even react to rolls if they're not already anticipating them, and those are around 30 frames. Say you're offstage and a Peach is about to throw out a fair, that's definitely reactable because you don't have to focus on anything but avoiding that. If you're playing the neutral and a Samus throws out her 16 frame grab, you're not going to react to that if there's anything else on your mind at all at the time she throws it out.

Now, if Robin is about to recover with Elwind you can focus on that and react to it, but to have enough time to jump/drop off afterwards and throw out an attack that means anything, like a 14-16 frame meteor, is unrealistic unless she's coming from very far away with just up b. She doesn't have to though, her mid-air jump and aerials are good enough to get it done practically every time.

 

[NegaNixx]

But the fact is, Doc and ROB recoveries are not bad.

They're not braindead and they can be hard read in some situations or certain very high tier edgeguards that would give most of the cast problems do affect them, but a good player has more than enough options to make it back safely very consistently with Doc's recovery, as well as ROB's.

Robin is a recovery that will never make it back without taking damage. ROB and Doc are nowhere near that level of bad, and their recoveries are about average, like about 80% or so of the cast.

The fact Mac SOMETIMES can make it back unscatched cannot be discounted when arguing who has the worst recovery. You can literally just wait and react for Robin's recovery, and he will get hit. Mac at least sometimes makes this a 50/50.

I am in aggreance that Robin has a bad recovery but that doesn't make the other ones any better in any way except relative to the cast as a whole. Those recoveries are still considered bad and exploitable it doesn't matter where you put them, just because characters have worse doesn't make that original's recovery good. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Ghostbone]

Robin absolutely, positively, should never make it back without getting punished simply because you can always wait for Elwind and he has no way to get around a reactive edgeguard. Even if he recovers high, he has no landing options or any real momentum mixups aside from the heavily punishable Elwind. Mac fundamentally needs to be baited and read to get edgeguarded if he has room to recover high.

Yea I guess every player to have ever existed is just awful at the game since Robins recover even against people with matchup knowledge.

We'll just trust a random on SWF who has probably never played vs an actual good Robin.

There's not much for me to go into because your claims that people can just react to elwind, or that robin has no options/can't change her momentum quickly is just false.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You very clearly don't actually play against this character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gsFHlj0PmE

Please tell me how many times I actually got punished on my recovery?

Because I can tell you right now it's definitely not 100%, so saying 'Never' is simply objectively incorrect.

I watched 1:03 and cringed. Zero literally had a free B-air and for some reason did it rising instead of falling. Yes you probably would have survived this but it's still completely free reactive damage he missed.

That doesn't prove that Robin's recovery isn't by far one of the worst and realistically can be reacively punished with near 100% consistency.

 

[Raziek]

I watched 1:03 and cringed. Zero literally had a free B-air and for some reason did it rising instead of falling. Yes you probably would have survived this but it's still completely free reactive damage he missed.

That doesn't prove that Robin's recovery isn't by far one of the worst and realistically can be reacively punished with near 100% consistency.

Lmao ok.

Go watch 8Bitman play Dath.

You're simply delusional if you think Robin's recovery always gets punished. It is in direct contradiction to reality.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lmao ok.

Go watch 8Bitman play Dath.

You're simply delusional if you think Robin's recovery always gets punished. It is in direct contradiction to reality.

@Vipermoon64 said it best. Most of us are bad at edgeguarding, citing the number of times Mac makes it back to the stage.

This doesn't mean that Robin's recovery isn't one that can't be autopilot punished.

 

[Rand0]

Alright, lets talk about the mario - captain falcon matchup. Its popular belief that mario wins this pretty well, but to the people that say that, i ask why? In my opinion its either in CF favor or even, based on overall attributes and abilities. for instance, CF has one of the best ground games in the game, having one of the fastest dashes, and grabs and great kill options (side b, for instance), making it virtually impossible to stand on the stage for too long, making whoever hes playing to stay in the air. this does work out well for mario though considering his fast frame data, and good arials, he can space with his bair. and with his fireballs he can space and get openings for grabs. both have very good combo games all around. so in all on stage i would say mario wins, or its even based on CF neutral game.

off-stage I think its a very one-sided fight, CF has his spike, and mario has a very predictable up-b, making for a terrible situation. CF also has a very good nair, making for a good edge guard game in general, and as well as just off stage, he also has a great use of ledge trumping, making for an easy bair kill if the ledge trump was successful. has a good ledge trump game as well, but doesnt work with CF a lot, he has great air speed that if DI'd back and jumps, he can get away from any options off the trump. although mario has a great bair and nair making for good edge guarding situations as well, although having a very predictable spike. CF's up-b allows for a command grab, making it hard to gimp, because of that factor. he also has two ways of returning to stage, side b and up b, while mario is very predictable, only having up b. so in the off stage game, i would say CF wins fairly well.

One more thing I wanna say is about CF command grab up - b. if standing on a platform and shielding, which u may find urself doing often against this character, to get away from his neutral game, he can up-b you out of you shield, which makes that option very unsafe when fighting this character, making it impossible to land at all, including on platforms. He also has a great up air, which makes for great shield pressure, when in this situation, and just when u think ursafe, hes got you with his up-b.

so tell me what you think.

I think this matchup is 60/40 in CF favor, or even.

 

[Raziek]

@Vipermoon64 said it best. Most of us are bad at edgeguarding, citing the number of times Mac makes it back to the stage.

This doesn't mean that Robin's recovery isn't one that can't be autopilot punished.

As long as Robin has her double jump, you literally cannot auto-pilot punish.

Which she will.

Further to the point, if you're arguing about theoryland where all punishes are perfect, then everything you are saying is meaningless anyway, as it has no actual application to the reality the rest of us are living in.

 

[Antonykun]

on the subject of Robin recovery
well I can only speak about villager but N-air messes with elwind but not robin as a whole because Leffen Sword Aerials beat everything Villager can do