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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Antonykun

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oh yeah @Emblem Lord I kind of want to expand my knowledge on Ryu and I think it would be nice if you could expand your thought on Ryu vs Swordfighter just a bit. I know you put them on even and i wanted to know why.
 

Trifroze

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Eh? You are silly.

Just play ZSS full stop. Better character, far less technical. Far less work.

Like why would you make more work for yourself? There is no such thing as a successful Ryu secondary. Once you get deep in with him you will see that. He takes your full dedication.
Yea Ryu could be top 5 as a solo-main but probably one of the worst secondaries since his playstyle doesn't overlap very well with this game overall.
I disagree in a couple ways. While Ryu is the most technical character in the game he's still relatively easy because of the mechanics of Smash 4 (the massive buffer and easy inputs even with Ryu), and if you keep dedicating to a single character your improvement with them will gradually slow down more and more. Most of your improvement will also come from matchup knowledge and your fundamentals getting better which is something that can often better be achieved by playing different characters. I think several mains that you dedicate to equally can serve a real advantage, and if you co-main two characters for instance, it by no means equals to both of your characters being only 50% as good as they'd be if you fully dedicated to one of them. It's probably something more like 90-95%.

Remains to be seen how it works though, but I think picking easy characters as secondaries is just a short term solution and if you're not going to dedicate to a character enough that you could pick a more difficult one, you shouldn't be picking other characters to begin with.
 
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Greward

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Ryu may be a hard character to play, but let's not get this over the top. He doesn't need that much dedication that you can't play any other character in the game at all. No character needs that.

It's early days for Ryu being a top tier but we already have seen people using Ryu as secondary in tournament like Mr R or 6WX.
 

DunnoBro

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I disagree in a couple ways. While Ryu is the most technical character in the game he's still relatively easy because of the mechanics of Smash 4 (the massive buffer and easy inputs even with Ryu), and if you keep dedicating to a single character your improvement with them will gradually slow down more and more. Most of your improvement will also come from matchup knowledge and your fundamentals getting better which is something that can often better be achieved by playing different characters. I think several mains that you dedicate to equally can serve a real advantage, and if you co-main two characters for instance, it by no means equals to both of your characters being only 50% as good as they'd be if you fully dedicated to one of them. It's probably something more like 90-95%.

Remains to be seen how it works though, but I think picking easy characters as secondaries is just a short term solution and if you're not going to dedicate to a character enough that you could pick a more difficult one, you shouldn't be picking other characters to begin with.
I didn't mean that putting work into more characters detracts from your mastery of them, just that it's generally a bad idea to have a secondary that's more technical than the main unless there's a specific niche that other characters can't serve.
 

Trifroze

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I didn't mean that putting work into more characters detracts from your mastery of them, just that it's generally a bad idea to have a secondary that's more technical than the main unless there's a specific niche that other characters can't serve.
I agree with that, however I did specifically say co-main, never secondary. I think secondaries in general are only useful (from a practical standpoint) to cover bad matchups.
 

Luigi player

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had a similar effect*
Vectoring still exists, though only for moves that hit in angles between 67 and -67 and the same for the left sides (113 and 247).
Edit: just talking about vertical vectoring here, sorry I forgot to mention it... (horizontal vectoring should work all the time)

Someone tell Trela how to DI/Vector ZSS' upB, cuz he could've lived some and it was sad to see him dying to it in 1 or 2 games (one of them being the last one iirc).

If you don't know how to DI some killmoves the beefy smash doods have a new vid uploaded on youtube on how to DI the most common ones.

I wouldn't really say it's just "holding down and live longer" for moves in these ranges too, though. That would mostly just help against ones that would KO up the top.
 
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Djent

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Most top-level Melee players use multiple characters, and that game is more technically demanding than Smash 4. Hell, even some of the Fox mains who theoretically can't benefit from co-maining still do (see: Armada, Mango, M2K). In Brawl, some top-level MKs (Lee Martin, Anti, Kakera, Tyrant, etc.) and ICs (Vinnie and ESAM) played 2 or more characters seriously as well.

Even if people haven't reached the level of mastery where diminished returns dictate playing more than one character seriously, we will reach that point eventually. Fighting games generally favor playing multiple characters for reasons that depend as much on player psychology as MU spreads in theory. Other Smash games with worse balance than S4 exhibit this pattern, so I expect it will prove at least as true for us.
 

MysteriousSilver

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[Palutena's] Utilt and ftilt seem to have very little utility to me, anti-air and punish maybe?
Utilt is a fantastic anti-air because it's very meaty and makes her hurtbox tiny. It can also kill around 130% fresh, and you can sometimes get it out of jab, and having more kill options is always welcome to Palu

Ftilt's main purpose is making Palutena mains cry
 

bc1910

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I find it hard to believe any character in the series except Brawl MK and 64 Pikachu, who win all their MUs, don't benefit from having strong secondaries. And even then, that's only true for Pika if Hyrule is banned, otherwise you might want want a secondary for Fox.

We've already seen people second Ryu so whilst he is very unique and takes dedication let's not pretend he stops you from using other characters.
 

Bakagabby

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How bad is lucas? Is there any potential there? I've searched fairly far back in the thread and haven't found much.
 

C0rvus

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Man, peoples' perception of Lucas is all over the map. I've seen him placed anywhere from nearly high tier to bottom five. The interesting thing was a Reddit post by Lucas main PK Blueberry (sorry if this isn't right) where he described his many design flaws in detail. It's here in case anyone cares: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3q4ly4/lucas_has_some_major_design_flaws/
I know it's Reddit, but this guy has a Youtube channel and from his videos it's clear he is a competitive player.

All I can conclusively say about Lucas is that he isn't good, per say. At best he's on the fringe of viability.
 
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bc1910

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Lucas is thoroughly underwhelming and IMO the biggest disappointment in terms of how strong his trailer made him look.

Following DI for his hoo hah isn't even that easy, compared to like Sheik or ZSS, despite his massive frame advantage. Because of his weird double jump you have to jump after the opponent immediately after the throw ends and you can easily go in the wrong direction.

I used to scoff at suggestions that he was bottom 5 but, whilst I still think bottom 5 is unfair, I'd say he's definitely in that lower spectrum of characters. I can see him in bottom 15 easily. I think he's between Falco and Bowser in terms of strength.
 
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Bakagabby

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Thank you for the replies. Cracklin, that reddit post was quite thorough. I don't think I'll be continuing on Lucas, at least not until he gets some buffs. :(
 

Smog Frog

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eh. i see :4lucas:as a zoner/anti-zoner all in one due to the nature of his zoning tools(zair going through projectiles and pk fire exploding on them) and the fact he can reflect and absorb projectiles. i think mastery of him is thorough knowledge of his movement and zoning tools(if you're moving even very slightly back with pkf it'll launch you all the way back, almost as if you wavebounced it). i'll expand after school, since i have to go soon.
 

C0rvus

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I don't mean to come off as too negative towards Lucas. He isn't that bad, most likely bottom half of the cast, but not unworkable. Play who you like. Every character can benefit from more players, and Lucas has a younger meta than most of the cast.
 

NachoOfCheese

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I'm trying to pick up Lucas, and I have to say he does have some noteworthy traits that set him apart.
PK fire and Zair are effective zoning tools that really help him in matchups with characters without projectiles (Falcon, DK, Ike). Lucas' edgeguard game is also very unique to say the least. His magnet allows him to stall longer than almost anyone else. The issue with his edgeguard game is his range. Against the likes of DK and Falcon, Dsmash is an amazing edgeguard tool that kills at like 80.
In disadvantage, he's hella floaty. Combined with the fact that he's pretty heavy for his size, he doesn't really get comboed too hard.
And his recovery distance is godly.
Don't count this guy out.
 

Tri Knight

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I never liked Lucas or Ness's recovery. It offers way too much time for the opponent to take advantage of it and gimp them hard. Yeah it demands respect after you fly through the air, but way too much could go wrong before that.
 

NachoOfCheese

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I never liked Lucas or Ness's recovery. It offers way too much time for the opponent to take advantage of it and gimp them hard. Yeah it demands respect after you fly through the air, but way too much could go wrong before that.
What? Dude. If you're that close you tether. Else, up b, which you can use from the blastzone if you're scared of getting gimped.
 

Plain Yogurt

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I'm not really sure how listing a bunch of weaknesses = major design flaws. I know that reddit post is mostly a vent post but there's just so much about it that doesn't really make sense to me that I feel the need to address it.

Lucas's shorthops don't autocancel, but his aerials also pretty darn safe. When sweetspotted Fair and Bair are only -7 against OOS options and they're a flat 0 against shield drop options. As long you're using them for spacing you shouldn't get punished for hitting a shield with them. And of course that's not even mentioning his Zair (which either does in fact autocancel or has a stupid low landing lag) which is at least +2 on block when spaced. Lucas has combos yeah but frick guys SHULK has combos (they're there if you squint a little I swear). That doesn't mean that's what he should be focusing on. He should be annoying the frick out of his opponents with Zairs, retreating Fairs, PK Fires, and PK Freezes (am I crazy for using this? The end lag is stupidly low but I never see anyone talk about it) until they get flustered into doing something he can punish. PK Fire's pushback and jump canceling with his magnet along with his solid air speed (14th-18th in the cast) help him float around his opponent to play this sort of game.

Lucas's grab is bad, sure but his throws are solid. Down-throw leads to combos including footstool setups while the other three can all kill depending on stage position. His pummel isn't too shabby either. It's no ZSS reward, but getting grabbed by Lucas isn't the best situation to be in. Plus it being a tether means he doesn't immediately get bodied by Rosalina (though I still wouldn't want to try that matchup).

Not sure what defines a poor ground game, but all of Lucas's tilts are pretty quick. Frame 2 jab, frame 3 Dtilt, frame 4 Utilt (frame 7 for the anti-air spark). His FSmash is also a respectable Frame 14 (er, unless that's considered slow for a smash. Forgive me I play Shulk.) that reflects. They're a bit short ranged but considering you spend most of Lucas's game jumping around shooting lightning bolts they do their job of "please back the hell up" when they need to.

I can't explain why his DSmash doesn't work like Shulk's. Maybe that one is a design flaw. I dunno.

"Upsmash isn't going to help him in the neutral." Here's where it really starts just looking like a vent post. Does ANYBODY'S USmash help their neutral? Lucas's USmash is just one of those moves that you don't really use in a 1v1 setting save for a hard punish/footstool punish. They exist on other characters too, it's okay.

No comment about Uair other than Ness's is disgustingly better and it's frustrating. Not a terrible move though.

PK Thunder 1 is trash. He's right on that one. Hell, PK Thunder 2 is trash, even disregarding that you can be hit out of it: I've literally crashed directly into an edge and still bounced off. Fix that garbage immediately. Even then though PKT2 goes a full mile and he has a tether.

I probably came off as a little venty myself and I don't really know where Lucas stands but if you throw around a characters weaknesses and none of his strengths then of course they're gonna look bad.
 

Tri Knight

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What? Dude. If you're that close you tether. Else, up b, which you can use from the blastzone if you're scared of getting gimped.
You can be out of tether range and still be gimped. You can be below the stage and still get gimped. Using at blast zone just makes recovering that much harder for you. You have to hit yourself the right way and being in the blastzone masks the thunderbolt.

Im not saying it's terrible. It's not bad, I just don't like it because it leaves you too vulnerable out there.
 

wedl!!

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Lucas is too "balanced" a character to really be that bad. He's an anti-zoner who's good at grounded footsies with a strong but unreliable punish game.

His only really big flaws are meh recovery (he still has a tether though), low mobility and bad shorthop normals.

I mean, he has combos. Mostly off of his frame 16(?) grab with his slow running speed. He ain't no Sammy.

Before anyone says that "Falco is a balanced character but he's still bad": keep in mind that Falco has way more dumb/wonky things than Lucas. Bad lazers, slow grab, terrible neutral, the list goes on. He's forced to play close range footsies with poor mobility which is just nonsensical. At least Lucas has a decently functioning gameplan.
 
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KirbySquad101

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Lucas's shorthops don't autocancel, but his aerials also pretty darn safe. When sweetspotted Fair and Bair are only -7 against OOS options and they're a flat 0 against shield drop options. As long you're using them for spacing you shouldn't get punished for hitting a shield with them. And of course that's not even mentioning his Zair (which either does in fact autocancel or has a stupid low landing lag) which is at least +2 on block when spaced. Lucas has combos yeah but frick guys SHULK has combos (they're there if you squint a little I swear). That doesn't mean that's what he should be focusing on. He should be annoying the frick out of his opponents with Zairs, retreating Fairs, PK Fires, and PK Freezes (am I crazy for using this? The end lag is stupidly low but I never see anyone talk about it) until they get flustered into doing something he can punish. PK Fire's pushback and jump canceling with his magnet along with his solid air speed (14th-18th in the cast) help him float around his opponent to play this sort of game..
It doesn't auto cancel, but yes, the landing lag of his teether is really low (8 frames).

And on a side note, Shulk has combos?


Not sure what defines a poor ground game, but all of Lucas's tilts are pretty quick. Frame 2 jab, frame 3 Dtilt, frame 4 Utilt (frame 7 for the anti-air spark). His FSmash is also a respectable Frame 14 (er, unless that's considered slow for a smash. Forgive me I play Shulk.) that reflects. They're a bit short ranged but considering you spend most of Lucas's game jumping around shooting lightning bolts they do their job of "please back the hell up" when they need to.
Frame 14 is the same as Kirby's u-smash, sooooooooo.... yeah, it's not very fast. Plus the cool down on that move looks awful. (31 frames of endlag)
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Lucas is not very good. I'm not saying hes like bottom 10, but he has a lot of flaws that set him apart from other characters. I know I mention Kirby a damn lot, but hes like Kirby. Has good strengths, but his weaknesses make his strengths near useless (can zone but no mobility, good combos but extremely unreliable, has grab combos but frame 16 grab, etc)
 

Plain Yogurt

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It doesn't auto cancel, but yes, the landing lag of his teether is really low (8 frames).

And on a side note, Shulk has combos?




Frame 14 is the same as Kirby's u-smash, sooooooooo.... yeah, it's not very fast. Plus the cool down on that move looks awful. (31 frames of endlag)
In jump art, falling nair goes into just about anything thanks to Shulk's increased air speed and momentum combined with Nair's (comparably) low landing lag. Nair -> Fair -> Airslash is a thing, for example, and cancelling his landing lag with Monado Arts can help too. Most don't go beyond two hits but I mean, that's still a combo.

Bah I figured. Maining Shulk makes anything look fast I guess.

For those asking Lucas's grab is frame 12 standing, frame 14 dashing, and frame 12 pivoted.
 

DunnoBro

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I swear to christ if I could actually lab duck hunt in training mode with frame progression without double damage smashes I could find a block string combo

He can put out like 4 hitboxes at a single time very reliably so it really should be feasible.
 

Jamurai

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In disadvantage, he's hella floaty. Combined with the fact that he's pretty heavy for his size, he doesn't really get comboed too hard.
An issue with Lucas's disadvantage which really stuck out to me is he has no good combo breakers, with nothing faster than frame 7 and fairly small or narrow hitboxes on everything except Bair. He has very quick moves on the ground but in the air he has problems when he's not in control.

I think Lucas is solid all-round but with so many good characters in this game he struggles to stand out. He's very fun to play though. I put him in the bottom half of the cast. Going solo with him is probably tough to pull off, but he could be an interesting secondary. In theory he's not bad against Ryu due to his keep-out game, for example.
 

Knife8193

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Your information is old. A few patches ago Link's tether range was doubled and he gained dthrow combos that murder fastfallers.
I'm aware. However, that doesn't automatically mean the matchups now even. Lots of characters have "combos that murder fastfallers" and yet they still struggle against Sheiks and Foxes. Even then, Link's dthrow uair is not true at kill %s and only works when following DI. I mean the dthrow combos do help a lot at early percents when dthrow utilt true combos.
 

Asdioh

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Someone asked a few pages back about the Kirby Sheik MU (again) and I dunno what to say, aside from at the top level, the better player will win... especially if they're the Sheik. Kirby's biggest hurdles I see are the disjoint on Sheik's Fair, which can theoretically beat almost all of his moves if spaced correctly, and the fact that her Dthrow->Upair seems to be guaranteed at certain percents, while Kirby has less reliable (but generally stronger) KO options. As bad of a character as Kirby is, the matchup isn't too bad, considering how Sheik is the best character in the game. Unless ZSS secretly is. I'm still convinced that the matchup is at least 50-50 under the condition that Kirby has Upper Cutter, and has access to Sheik's Needles, but since this condition is never met (customs are almost universally banned) I'd put it at 40-60ish.

I can say with certainty that no character mains on Anther's Ladder have complained about Kirby when playing me as much as Sheik players have.

Man, peoples' perception of Lucas is all over the map. I've seen him placed anywhere from nearly high tier to bottom five. The interesting thing was a Reddit post by Lucas main PK Blueberry (sorry if this isn't his right) where he described his many design flaws in detail. It's here in case anyone cares: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3q4ly4/lucas_has_some_major_design_flaws/
I know it's Reddit, but this guy has a Youtube channel and from his videos it's clear he is a competitive player.

All I can conclusively say about Lucas is that he isn't good, per say. At best he's on the fringe of viability.
I want to say that the starting assumption of that post is incorrect in the first place. He says that Lucas is a sweetspot/combo based character, but I see 3 specials that are projectiles (2 of which are bad, but PK Fire is very good to make up for this,) a lagless Zair that destroys projectiles, a stick that reflects projectiles, and a magnet that absorbs projectiles, and I think more of a zoner/anti-zoner, or whatever term the kids use these days.

Then I read the posts after this one and see people saying basically the same thing. :D

Lucas is by no means terrible, he has some good things going for him, as people said. I see the reddit thread mentioned that he might be the only character with no autocancels from a short hop, and I was gonna mention Greninja, but I guess he edited in a bunch of characters since I saw it yesterday. Still, autocancels from a shorthop aren't necessary 100% of the time. Lucas' aerials are quite good for comboing without SH autocancels. Downsmash not hitting all three hits after you shield one is kind of weird. I know moves with lingering hitboxes can be shielded at the start, rendering the rest of their hitbox ineffective, but multihits don't have this effect, and Lucas' Dsmash certainly seems like a multihit type like Shulk's. Still, at least it's very powerful, and has a janky hitbox that even hits behind him! He could probably use some buffs, but he still has some neat things going for him, with all 4 throws being viable, footstool combos being possible, Zair and PK Fire giving him strong neutral options, low % KOs being possible, magnet having 3 powerful uses with the intended use of absorbing projectiles, the still-intended secondary use of hitting opponents at an incredible downwards angle, and the tertiary use of changing direction/momentum in the air, leading to cool things, and.. having a better recovery than Ness?
 

Nobie

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A lot of players assume/hope their characters are combo-based because Smashers sure love them comboooooos.
 

M32

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The motive Lucas' dsmash actually hits only once is because the damage it makes is enough to lock you in shieldstun for the whole duration of it and the sum of the 3 hits is enough to break a full shield. You can't even spotdodge it because its frequency is high enough to catch those. The only solution would be rolling or simply getting away before it hits. Would still pretty dumb.
 
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meleebrawler

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The motive Lucas' dsmash actually hits only once is because the damage it makes is enough to lock you in shieldstun for the whole duration of it and the sum of the 3 hits is enough to break a full shield. You can't even spotdodge it because its frequency is high enough to catch those. The only solution would be rolling or simply getting away before it hits. Would still pretty dumb.
Or it could cause a stupid amount of damage if your back is caught to a wall.
 
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C0rvus

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As he always does.

I know he regularly uses Ness and Fox, and messes with Pikachu and Lucas. That's too many. Maybe getting that sponsor will convince him to trim the fat, so to speak. I have always felt that his roster of active characters is one of the factors that hold him back.
 

Macedonian

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As he always does.

I know he regularly uses Ness and Fox, and messes with Pikachu and Lucas. That's too many. Maybe getting that sponsor will convince him to trim the fat, so to speak. I have always felt that his roster of active characters is one of the factors that hold him back.
i mean, nairo plays like the whole damn cast so i dont know if i agree that this is an issue for him
 

C0rvus

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i mean, nairo plays like the whole damn cast so i dont know if i agree that this is an issue for him
In tournament though? Also strictly speaking, Nairo is better by an increasingly wide margin. I guess everyone plays at their own pace, though. I myself play best when I focus on one character of course, but I tend to like mid tier characters and I also get bored of the character if I only play them for a while. So for me, 2 seems to be ideal. For others like Nakat, I guess 4 is the magic number lol
 
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