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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Dee-SmashinBoss

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TBH Kirby's frame data in up smash may make it not good enough to this list. Although i guess if Zelda, Ganondorf, and Peach are in it, then it's okay.............

Or is this just in knockback?
Well try not to look at its startup only, sure its frame 14, which is moderate start-up, but its end lag is pretty small, compared to Pika or Fox.
Also believe it or not it IS stronger then foxs, who's is already very powerful, so keep that in mind, also it has invincibility on his feet so its a decent anti air too.
But Fox has setups into his and is faster too so he can get a run to Usmash easier, but yea Kirby's does deserve an honorable mention at least.
 

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
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Well try not to look at its startup only, sure its frame 14, which is moderate start-up, but its end lag is pretty small, compared to Pika or Fox.
Also believe it or not it IS stronger then foxs, who's is already very powerful, so keep that in mind, also it has invincibility on his feet so its a decent anti air too.
But Fox has setups into his and is faster too so he can get a run to Usmash easier, but yea Kirby's does deserve an honorable mention at least.
I know it has better knockback than Fox, that's why I asked.
 

rrrRandy

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Charizard may have a ground speed advantage but it's not that big, mainly in walking, and Mewtwo is way faster in the air. And Charizard is NOT safer when recovering than Mewtwo, especially if he has a charged shadow ball ready to intercept Flare Blitz, plus Mewtwo can go deep enough to attack Charizard before he can Fly safely.

But most of all, you've neglected to mention Mewtwo's most important tool of all, Shadow Ball. It's this versatile projectile that stymies Charizard's ground advantage and can either force him into the air where he's slower, try to Flare Blitz through which can be punished on shield by shadow ball lock into disable, and just generally lets Mewtwo set the pace of the match better.
You don't Flare Blitz through Shadow Ball on the ground, you don't Flare Blitz at a grounded opponent because it's a bad move and any Charizard you're playing against that does that is a bad Charizard. What Charizard should be doing is either shorthopping small Shadow Balls or powershielding fully charged ones, they move slowly enough for it to really be quite easy.

Throwing single projectiles that travel in a straight line at a Charizard trying to recover doesn't actually work that well when he has two mid-air jumps to work with; it's a lot harder for Charizard to deal with a character going deep to kill him with an aerial. Mewtwo does have the air speed and low fall speed to go deep, but he doesn't have the aerial traction to change direction rapidly enough or the hitboxes to cover all of Charizard's recovery options simultaneously and safely (jump airdodge is a thing, and Charizard has two of it), nor does he have the ideal knockback angles to actually kill Charizard any earlier when he does go off. Mewtwo can pester Charizard off-stage, no doubt about that, but chances are he's making it back safely unless he's already at kill %, assuming he doesn't get out of it completely unscathed.

I... what? Since when did Zard have advantage on Link? Maybe against a really crappy Link but his projectiles and grab are more than just a "bother", they're downright lethal to Charizard. Not only is Link's grab amazingly long and fairly quick for its range, but getting grabbed once by Link pretty much means you're going to get comboed to hell and back. Charizard is a big target and incredibly easy to grab in a relative sense too. I don't play on a terribly high competitive level but I play both characters and I'd say the matchup is handily in Link's favor. Charizard has very few approach options as is, and even jumping over projectiles perfectly on approach usually means you're going to eat a fair from a good Link IMHO.

Building on from Zard's approach, I actually don't think Shulk is necessarily in his favor in this game either. Quite frankly the range and mobility on his aerial game really can mess him up badly, and his counter actually has the range to punish any use of flamethrower pretty hard too, removing another of Charizard's fairly limited options. Though I don't know enough about the matchup to say for sure. I just feel like a good Shulk is going to use jump and dominate the aerial game from ranges that are hard for Zard to punish at.
Yeah, Link's grab is actually pretty good. And out of a down-throw on Charizard at low % he'd most likely get something like two up-tilts and potentially an up-air, it does hurt a lot. But let me put it this way: against any competent player, arrows will be mostly meaningless at most ranges since Link won't be able to capitalise on them being shielded. Gale Boomerang is not nearly as much of a nuisance as Toon Link's Boomerang due to its lack of a hitbox on returning; it can get Link some nice set-ups, but a player with enough Link experience will know how to turn the windboxes against you. Bombs are the only real significant problem for Charizard because of the way they bounce off shields and that they can be thrown straight through Flamethrower, but again a competent player will be able to recognise that a Link holding a bomb is unable to grab or f-air; Bombs can also be caught. If Link is not holding a Bomb, then shorthop Flamethrower can dodge grab and outrange f-air to cover both options, at even closer ranges it might be ideal for Charizard to attempt to trade f-airs. It can be a bit of an effort mentally for Charizard to deal with Link's zoning but it is easily doable. And once Charizard is in, it can be very hard for Link to bring it back because he doesn't have the means to get opponents off him safely (just generally, in any matchup). Link can combo Charizard quite well, and forces his approach in the neutral, but Charizard doesn't actually have too much trouble closing the gap despite being a large target; Link also doesn't have as much of a range advantage as he does against most characters. It's definitely an awkward matchup that requires a bit more effort from the Charizard player mentally, but when played optimally I don't see Link coming out on top.

Shulk is actually a terrible character in general with little to no redeeming qualities. The Monado's size and how long Shulk's aerials linger can be pretty annoying, but Shulk's absolutely horrid frame data makes him really easy to punish, at least when he doesn't have Jump on. When he does have Jump on, yeah, Shulk might be moving a bit too far to punish easily, but that's only when he has Jump on; one of Shulk's fundamental flaws is that he can't have an art active forever, anyone can just time out the art that gives them trouble. Using Vision to beat out Flamethrower doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since Charizard will usually be hitting you with it from above where Vision won't connect, or you could probably be beating it out with a real attack. There's not really a reason for Charizard to put out a Flamethrower in neutral against Shulk, that's just not the kind of projectile Flamethrower is. Any character with decent mobility and/or frame data should have a positive matchup against Shulk by virtue of Shulk being kinda really bad, to be completely honest.

That's probably enough from me. Discussing whether Charizard is slightly advantaged or slightly disadvantaged against other perceived low-tier characters probably isn't particularly relevant or interesting to most people, nor is it particularly productive since most people have very little Charizard matchup experience, so I think I'm going to leave it here. That and I needed to go to sleep about two hours ago.
 

KirbySquad101

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Ugh it's so unfortunate that whenever your mains best players can't/don't often post :(

Anyways who do you guys think have among the best Usmashes?
Some good or notable ones I can think of are
:4fox::rosalina:?:4peach:.....:4ganondorf:?:4kirby::4pikachu::4zelda:?:4mario::4luigi::4drmario:

I bet there are more, but these guys seem to have noteworthy Usmashes
You're forgetting a certain, invincible, frame 14 endlag up smash....

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Game And Watch
 

Smog Frog

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just like :mewtwomelee:! except :4mewtwo: has ways of manipulating his aerial momentum(shadow ball, confusion)

and that brings me to a question: if you have ways of manipulating your airspeed through moves but your actual accel/decel stats are bad, does that count as aerial mobility?

(ps: can we refer to his fair as psycho cut? he actually learns that move, unlike shadow claw)
 

Dabuz

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@**Gilgamesh** Dabuz beat tyrant because tyrant not only has little experience against a rosa using fallns playstyle but also because dabuz is straight up better than tyrant as a player. However things can change since tyrant adapts so quick.

His playstyle doesn't change much as falln after beating ito at indigo and then sending ito to losers the landiego after, he has yet to beat itos metaknight since. At some point ito finally started killing luma and then destroyed falln every game forcing him to once again switch to ZSS. He does better with zss but still loses, he's back to playing with secondaries against ito. I think dabuz said on stream at some point to use a different character.

Felt like pointing this out since some members had knee jerk reactions(shaya) and went on to say that this MU is 50:50. Falln can win neutral 8 times but ito wins literally once and takes a stock.
I remember fighting Abadango. He was at 130, I was at 0, I got dash attacked...I died. The end.

Not an awful matchup though, it reminds me of Brawl Oli vs. MK, lose neutral once and it's potentially over, but MK's neutral is easy enough to shut down consistently.
 

meleebrawler

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just like :mewtwomelee:! except :4mewtwo: has ways of manipulating his aerial momentum(shadow ball, confusion)

and that brings me to a question: if you have ways of manipulating your airspeed through moves but your actual accel/decel stats are bad, does that count as aerial mobility?

(ps: can we refer to his fair as psycho cut? he actually learns that move, unlike shadow claw)
Well Psycho Cut is usually depicted as a projectile so...
 

Tri Knight

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You don't Flare Blitz through Shadow Ball on the ground, you don't Flare Blitz at a grounded opponent because it's a bad move and any Charizard you're playing against that does that is a bad Charizard. What Charizard should be doing is either shorthopping small Shadow Balls or powershielding fully charged ones, they move slowly enough for it to really be quite easy.

Throwing single projectiles that travel in a straight line at a Charizard trying to recover doesn't actually work that well when he has two mid-air jumps to work with; it's a lot harder for Charizard to deal with a character going deep to kill him with an aerial. Mewtwo does have the air speed and low fall speed to go deep, but he doesn't have the aerial traction to change direction rapidly enough or the hitboxes to cover all of Charizard's recovery options simultaneously and safely (jump airdodge is a thing, and Charizard has two of it), nor does he have the ideal knockback angles to actually kill Charizard any earlier when he does go off. Mewtwo can pester Charizard off-stage, no doubt about that, but chances are he's making it back safely unless he's already at kill %, assuming he doesn't get out of it completely unscathed.


Yeah, Link's grab is actually pretty good. And out of a down-throw on Charizard at low % he'd most likely get something like two up-tilts and potentially an up-air, it does hurt a lot. But let me put it this way: against any competent player, arrows will be mostly meaningless at most ranges since Link won't be able to capitalise on them being shielded. Gale Boomerang is not nearly as much of a nuisance as Toon Link's Boomerang due to its lack of a hitbox on returning; it can get Link some nice set-ups, but a player with enough Link experience will know how to turn the windboxes against you. Bombs are the only real significant problem for Charizard because of the way they bounce off shields and that they can be thrown straight through Flamethrower, but again a competent player will be able to recognise that a Link holding a bomb is unable to grab or f-air; Bombs can also be caught. If Link is not holding a Bomb, then shorthop Flamethrower can dodge grab and outrange f-air to cover both options, at even closer ranges it might be ideal for Charizard to attempt to trade f-airs. It can be a bit of an effort mentally for Charizard to deal with Link's zoning but it is easily doable. And once Charizard is in, it can be very hard for Link to bring it back because he doesn't have the means to get opponents off him safely (just generally, in any matchup). Link can combo Charizard quite well, and forces his approach in the neutral, but Charizard doesn't actually have too much trouble closing the gap despite being a large target; Link also doesn't have as much of a range advantage as he does against most characters. It's definitely an awkward matchup that requires a bit more effort from the Charizard player mentally, but when played optimally I don't see Link coming out on top.

Shulk is actually a terrible character in general with little to no redeeming qualities. The Monado's size and how long Shulk's aerials linger can be pretty annoying, but Shulk's absolutely horrid frame data makes him really easy to punish, at least when he doesn't have Jump on. When he does have Jump on, yeah, Shulk might be moving a bit too far to punish easily, but that's only when he has Jump on; one of Shulk's fundamental flaws is that he can't have an art active forever, anyone can just time out the art that gives them trouble. Using Vision to beat out Flamethrower doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since Charizard will usually be hitting you with it from above where Vision won't connect, or you could probably be beating it out with a real attack. There's not really a reason for Charizard to put out a Flamethrower in neutral against Shulk, that's just not the kind of projectile Flamethrower is. Any character with decent mobility and/or frame data should have a positive matchup against Shulk by virtue of Shulk being kinda really bad, to be completely honest.

That's probably enough from me. Discussing whether Charizard is slightly advantaged or slightly disadvantaged against other perceived low-tier characters probably isn't particularly relevant or interesting to most people, nor is it particularly productive since most people have very little Charizard matchup experience, so I think I'm going to leave it here. That and I needed to go to sleep about two hours ago.
The only reason you say Charizard beats Link is because the Charizard player will be smarter. Just because Link has a bomb in hand doesn't mean he has to throw it right away. It doesnt mean he loses options. And even then, throwing it on shields keeps it active for a good amount of time as it rolls to the ground. A competent Link player will already be well aware of what can be turned against him.

You're merely talking about ways Charizard can outsmart Link. Remember, Charizard can be outsmarted too. That's like me saying Link beats Charizard because we can avoid that SH Flamethrower when we see it coming and punish you hard for it. It doesn't work that way.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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We can use needles. Being lightweight makes it hard for her to forward air chain. Up tilt works really great aganist her, similar to Fox. Throw combos and even other combos are extremely effective.
We can use needles but that just forces her to approach. She's so fast and her moves are so effective we can't land an u-tilt or a grab very often. We can't punish f-air on shield. She's too fast to punish effectively. We also can't juggle her because of bouncing fish.

Well try not to look at its startup only, sure its frame 14, which is moderate start-up, but its end lag is pretty small, compared to Pika or Fox.
Also believe it or not it IS stronger then foxs, who's is already very powerful, so keep that in mind, also it has invincibility on his feet so its a decent anti air too.
But Fox has setups into his and is faster too so he can get a run to Usmash easier, but yea Kirby's does deserve an honorable mention at least.
But unlike Fox's, Kirby's strongest hit on u-smash is out for a single frame. Take that as you will.

She's a fast faller, so we get at least 40% guaranteed off of a combo. She can't combo us as easily since we're both floaty and we're a small target. We can airdodge Bouncing Fish offstage because of multiple jumps. We can copy Needle Storm, which we can combo into out of F-Throw, and use to deal damage from afar. If we pass the percentage where D-Throw to U-Air is guaranteed, we can live much longer than we do against other characters. Also she's not heavy, so we can kill relatively easily.
so we have combos that we can't start, while she has combos she can't finish. At least she gets damage. All we have against her is needles but that doesn't make the MU good
 
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DblCrest

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What else do we have on Sheik? Her neutral is too good and her moves are too fast to punish and start combos, we can't edge-guard Her or kill her, like idk I can't see it being anything better than 40:60.
I've found stone can actually get through the start up for vanish though I'm not sure if it's been patched out recently. But they'd have to be pretty predictable to fall for that I guess...

Wonder where Asdioh has gone. He might know...
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Ugh I'm seriously trying not to have to constantly do this.......
@MikeKirby or @Triple R or even @Asdioh, you guys actually go to tournaments and I bet fight shiek, what are your thoughts? Some real MU knowledge would help, do you think Kirby comes close to even with Shiek unlike most other characters?
 

FullMoon

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my friend @ArhyLis plays the frog that amphibian has way too many ways to beat Lloyd and the dude is so short you aren't consistently hitting hit with slingshots and he's so flabbergastingly fast he can run away and pelt villager with shurikens
truly frustrating
And similar to Pac-Man, Villager can't punish N-Air on shield with OoS N-Air anymore thanks to shield nerf so Greninja can freely hit his shield with it now without any fear.

This patch really did wonders for Greninja in general =V
 

Nu~

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And similar to Pac-Man, Villager can't punish N-Air on shield with OoS N-Air anymore thanks to shield nerf so Greninja can freely hit his shield with it now without any fear.

This patch really did wonders for Greninja in general =V
Wait, even our frame 1 trampoline OoS is too slow?

Just how great is the frame advantage on that move??
 

FullMoon

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Wait, even our frame 1 trampoline OoS is too slow?

Just how great is the frame advantage on that move??
I admittedly forgot trampoline existed lol

The move is -4 on shield now so yeah, Trampoline can still hit him. Isn't it a rather risky OoS option though since it puts Pac-Man in free fall and doesn't do much knockback?
 

Nu~

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I admittedly forgot trampoline existed lol

The move is -4 on shield now so yeah, Trampoline can still hit him. Isn't it a rather risky OoS option though since it puts Pac-Man in free fall and doesn't do much knockback?
It's unsafe at low percentages (unless we aim for the ledge...and hope you don't hydro pump us), but at mid to high percentages it's pretty dang safe.
 
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Ffamran

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Why so angry? And I think that's because a lot of people automatically equate slow movement with slow attacks and any other undesirable traits unbecoming of a good character.
Because it's freaking annoying. Why do you think I go out my way to quash things like Zelda's startup is much slower than Rosalina? I don't notice, but I bet people don't say Ganondorf hits slower than Captain Falcon, but then again, people have said Marth hits slower than Roy when in reality, they almost have the same startup. With Falco and as a Falco player, I notice comments on Falco a lot and most of the time, it always feels like people **** on him while praising the rest of the cast. Call it karma as people probably hated him in Brawl and Melee. Funny enough, Meta Knight's getting praised after the whole "we don't want to play Brawl again."
Here, I'll run some numbers through the knockback formula for you (Fox vs. Falco).
U-smash: frame 8 16%/BKB 30/KBG 94 vs. frame 8 (first hit) 12%/BKB 30/KBG 98 (second hit) = killing Mario from centre stage Battlefield at around 103% vs. 134%, before the killing hit.
U-air: frame 9 (first hit) 11%/BKB 30/KBG 100 (second hit) vs. frame 7 10%/BKB 35/KBG 95 = (from ground level) 143% vs. 161% (lower growth would mean the difference is greater on heavier characters, also actually comes out on the same frame after taking into account jumpsquats).
D-smash: frame 6 14%/BKB 30/KBG 75 vs. frame 7 15%/BKB 20/KBG 76 = 158% vs. 156%.
F-smash: frame 13 14%/BKB 20/KBG 98 vs. frame 17 15%/BKB 42/KBG 96 = 123% vs. 98%.
Jumpsquat: 4 frames vs. 6 frames.

There's the source of the "misconception". You could argue direct comparison between moves isn't really fair, and you may be right (to my knowledge Falco KOs a lot more often with B-air and going deep with F-air), but there's a lot less subjectivity when it comes to comparing numbers. I could still say things like "Fox's frame 8 U-smash comes out faster and kills earlier than Falco's frame 4 B-air when taking into account the added 6 frames from his jumpsquat, and Fox will be able to punish even more things due to being able to close the gap faster with his superior dash speed", if I didn't want to do direct 1-to-1 comparisons.
That's 4 moves out of 13 normals and aerials with 1 of your example, Down Smash, being neglible since it's a 1 frame difference in startup and you didn't include total frames for recovery frames. Falco always had a weaker Up Smash - it did 14% clean or 12% late in Melee and 10% clean or 8% late in Brawl to Smash 4's 4% + 12% - and it's the weakest flip kick Up Smash out of Fox, Mii Brawler, Yoshi, Kirby, and technically, Pikachu, his slower Side Smash is justified since it's transcendent unlike Fox's and has always been slow since Brawl, and he always had a weaker Uair since Melee where it was a frame 9, 2-hit, 6% + 10% aerial and in Brawl and launch Smash 4 where it was a 1-hit, frame 10, 11% aerial. After patch 1.0.8, it was made into a ZSS-like Uair and yet still retains similar damage and knockback to Rosalina's Uair. Why does it kill so late then? Fox's Uair does a total of 16%, sends people up 85 degrees, so purely vertical hit angle, and with a high jump, he's going to kill much sooner than most of the cast while Rosalina's attributes allow her to linger in the air longer and her Uair is purely vertical in hit angle in contrast to Falco, ZSS, Captain Falcon, and many other flip kick Uair users.

If you take into account of recovery and landing lag, Falco and Fox's lag is almost the same. Outside of Falco's Side Smash and Dair, Falco's moves are among the fastest in the game. Between Falco and Fox, Falco only has dash attack, Utilt - kept the same startup from Melee -, Side Smash, Down Smash (barely), Fair, Dair, and standing grab. Everything else is the same. A frame 6 jump or different jump frames in general is stupid since Greninja and ZSS, the next highest jumpers not only out-speed Falco in mobility, but they also have to have frame 4 jumps - I wished everyone had the same jump frames. The only noticeable things about Falco is that he runs much slower and his Side Smash and Dair are much slower. Air speed, fall speed, and walk speed are slower, but not by that much compared to his run speed to Fox's.

This is what I don't get. Facts are there and even analysis like how Fox's Up Smash is meant for killing while Falco's is meant for comboing or active frame abuse and yet people still handwave everything as Falco is slower, hits slower, is weaker, etc. Like I said, this can apply to all characters and it's really annoying. It's misinformation and misinformation kills characters. Why do you or anyone thinks Samus is that bad of a character? Remember that freaking viral video? Or, ironically, the idea that Smash 4 Ike is the same as Brawl Ike and everything from Brawl can be used against him. Funny, if that's the belief, then why don't people assume nothing's changed meaning characters like Ike, Falco, Samus, Diddy, and Luigi are barely any different in startup, recovery frames, total frames, damage, and knockback? Fun fact: launch Smash 4 Diddy's frame 3, 8% Uair was the same in Brawl and yet nobody complained like in Smash 4. Then again, Brawl Meta Knight existed...
 
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DunnoBro

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I think DH is a pretty annoying MU. Due to frisbee's high shield hitlag approaching can be a pain in the arse. Although if you're saying Greninja forces the approach, his work is done there anyway.

I don't think DH is especially good at pressuring our shield. Firstly our shield sucks against everyone. Secondly to truly abuse if you need the mobility and raw frame data to stay in our face, DH has neither. Thirdly, it seems like DH's aerials would be safe vs everyone now? Fair is -10 so we can jab if you missspace and can't punish otherwise, but surely this is true of every character (everyone would have to shield drop to punish which puts you at -3). Dair idk the frame data for but I just tested it and again can be jabbed if the move ends close to us, whether you fastfall for the autocancel or not. If you drift away you're safe, but again that should be true vs everyone. I think DH is good-ish at pressuring now but Greninja's not especially weak to his particular brand of pressure.
Well, I shouldn't have said I can "just approach" but before it was that shuriken covered almost all my options. Now I can mix it up. Duck hunt doesn't have raw frame data but he does have very unique qualities that make up for it via support hitboxes (trick shot/gunmen)

Also, fair/dair are safe due to the range, weaving, and hurtbox altering. The duck is considered a hurtbox during the animations, so people could just grab them OoS before. Now, the animation has more time to end so the duck just returns to the dog safely. Also with dair DH is always drifting over/away because it combos better that way and after I hit a shield i get a free option select.

And no offense to other DHDs but I've yet to see any others but Guy (who I essentially forced to use it) use dash attack or nair reverse shots for edgeguards. Characters without hitboxes simply can't avoid it reliably and it's why dhd's edgeguarding is so good. They tend to only bair reverse which is very linear. I just don't see how greninja can reliably avoid it, every time I got F.O.E offstage he stayed off until death usually.
 
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Wintropy

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Because it's freaking annoying. I don't notice, but I bet people don't say Ganondorf hits slower than Captain Falcon, but then again, people have said Marth hits slower than Roy. With Falco and as a Falco player, I notice comments on Falco a lot and most of the time, it always feels like people **** on him while praising the rest of the cast. Call it karma as people probably hated him in Brawl and Melee. Funny enough, Meta Knight's getting praised after the whole "we don't want to play Brawl again."
Bear with me here, this isn't going to be as insulting as it sounds initially, but you're the person that talks the most about Falco in this thread and you make very detailed points to that end; people probably skim through your comments on Falco (which is fair, I mean, they're friggin' huge. I personally love them, but you'd have to forgive people for not having the time to read everything in fine detail. But I digress), see the negative points ("Falco's hitbox on side-b is bigger than Fox's", "Falco doesn't have armour on his u-smash unlike Fox") and get the impression that Falco is just an inferior Fox. People might just, with the best of intentions, pick up on the most distinct bits of your pheasant treatises and think, "Oh, the clever Falco main said Falco's a bad character, Falco must have these other bad characters' traits." Which is silly, because you can't divorce content from context and expect to get a good idea of what the person's saying, but people will be people.

I'd excuse people for not being able to read everything you post and just picking out the important bits. What I won't excuse is people totally missing the point of what you have to say, because if they examined the context of your statements instead of just the points made, detached from said context, they'd get that that's not the point of what you're trying to say. I read most of your stuff, it's incredibly well-informed and educational; and yeah, there's quite a bit of discussion to the tune of Falco's weaknesses in this game, which can, to the uninformed eye, come off as disseminating how bad Falco is. Even so, I get that you're trying to demonstrate how Falco isn't the same as Fox, or even the same as the Falco from Melee and Brawl, so we don't get the misconception into our heads that he's the same character and can be played the same way. That's naturally going to be a daft thing to do for a character that's changed so much between games (mostly, it has to be said, for the negative), which is why I think it's important and helpful that you take the time to examine in the finest of detail how Falco's changed and how we can make the best of his new and unimproved moves. I just think people misinterpret what you have to say, since there's a lot being said and this thread moves very quickly - it often moves without sufficient time to discuss things, which creates misinformation and non-truths that quickly become canonised without people to say that that isn't how it goes.

That or I'm totally misinterpreting the point myself, but I don't think it can be ignored that, if you're referring to general opinion in this thread, most of what we hear about Falco comes directly from your descriptions and it's very easy to get the wrong idea if you're stupid and don't read things properly. There's a difference between detailing a character's weaknesses when you consider how it equates to other characters in the roster, and just stating without evidence or reason how ostensibly bad a character is. You do the former. But we get quite a bit of the latter in this thread too, and I hope people don't mistake what you have to say for it.

So I guess, PSA for everybody that bothered to read this: read what Ffamran has to say and read it well, he's got good stuff to say and we can educate ourselves if we take the time to get through it. There's the possibility that I'm weird and get my kicks by reading this kind of in-depth treatise, but hey, I'm happy if I get the benefit from it~
 

Mario766

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Smash 4 Top 8 STR

Nairo
8BitMan
Acid
Nakat

Saj
Myran
Trela
Ryo

Characters in top 8:
:4myfriends:
:4falcon:
:4zss:
:4fox:
:4rob:
:4olimar:
:4ryu:
:4peach:

That's a sexy character spread if I've ever seen one.
 

bc1910

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Well, I shouldn't have said I can "just approach" but before it was that shuriken covered almost all my options. Now I can mix it up. Duck hunt doesn't have raw frame data but he does have very unique qualities that make up for it via support hitboxes (trick shot/gunmen)

Also, fair/dair are safe due to the range, weaving, and hurtbox altering. The duck is considered a hurtbox during the animations, so people could just grab them OoS before. Now, the animation has more time to end so the duck just returns to the dog safely. Also with dair DH is always drifting over/away because it combos better that way and after I hit a shield i get a free option select.

And no offense to other DHDs but I've yet to see any others but Guy (who I essentially forced to use it) use dash attack or nair reverse shots for edgeguards. Characters without hitboxes simply can't avoid it reliably and it's why dhd's edgeguarding is so good. They tend to only bair reverse which is very linear. I just don't see how greninja can reliably avoid it, every time I got F.O.E offstage he stayed off until death usually.
Yeah, I've noticed the duck being a hurtbox before. Kinda dumb. I gotta say though I don't think Greninja would have been able to grab you prepatch. His shieldgrab really is awful.

Avoiding those edgeguards would be a case of using Shadow Sneak to teleport near the ledge or using wacky Hydro Pump angles to go over DHD's head or go around the projectiles and nail the ledge.

However I don't pretend to be a DHD expert and I'd have to see the setups you're talking about before I could tell you how Greninja could avoid them. Maybe he can't. Though my gut instinct says there'd be a way, considering he can get around Pac-man's setups. Him not having a hitbox in front of his recovery is the main thing wrong with it, though probably the only thing wrong with it since his recovery is great. In fairness DHD has the same issue, any time I can take one's double jump it's a case of Hydro Pumping them and knocking them back offstage until they die to Usmash. Taking the DJ can be hard though when they use can to cover their recovery. But then Greninja's DJ is hard to take if he uses Shadow Sneak properly.

Btw, little used tactic, Greninja can use Substitute while recovering and shoot himself back to the stage when he gets hit with a projectile. Really really useful. It's a godsend against Ness, who can otherwise spam PK Thunder at us offstage with impunity.
 
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Mario766

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Well that just happened.

Even I felt that spike.

Ryo doesn't respect Ryu. It showed heavily.
 

Emblem Lord

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Correction. Ike does not respect Ryu. Cuz Ike wields a blade forged by a goddess.

Though I'm willing to bet Trela does not fight Ike's of that level. I would need to analyze the match though to see where Trela coulda did better.
 

DunnoBro

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Avoiding those edgeguards would be a case of using Shadow Sneak to teleport near the ledge or using wacky Hydro Pump angles to go over DHD's head or go around the projectiles and nail the ledge.
He tried that and got stage spiked when going low and fsmashed when going high. I'm sure there's more optimal recovery methods you could take but shadow sneaking to the ledge as an answer to a DA reverse shot can is irrefutably a losing scenario.

Even villager has trouble recovering against this, if you don't have a hitbox recovery or very fast ledge snap it's very likely you'll die when recovering.

Substitute might be an answer though the angles/control I have over the can don't generally let counters help much.
 

Emblem Lord

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Fresh fair from Ryu does 16 and comboes into itself.

Fresh fair from Bowser does 14.

Yeah.

Fair and balanced imo.
 

Emblem Lord

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I'm laughing now at everyone who doubted Ryu's potential to make a showing at a national level. Meh. Back to the dojo I go.
 

Radiant Hero

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Holy hell, Trela's Ryu though. If anyone doubts Ryu being top tier, they need a reality check. Way too many set ups into true SRK at kill percents. I wish I saw Trela vs. Ryo. That's a MU supposedly in Ike's favor, but I heard Ryo got stomped?
 

Emblem Lord

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Holy hell, Trela's Ryu though. If anyone doubts Ryu being top tier, they need a reality check. Way too many set ups into true SRK at kill percents. I wish I saw Trela vs. Ryo. That's a MU supposedly in Ike's favor, but I heard Ryo got stomped?
As I said Ryu loses to NO ONE at the char select screen. He has the tools to win any match because he can be played in so many ways, has great specials, and the ability to CONSISTENTLY get kill confirms off SAFE POKES is a HUGE factor in a game where only a handful of characters have real confirms.
 

TheJolteon

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As I said Ryu loses to NO ONE at the char select screen. He has the tools to win any match because he can be played in so many ways, has great specials, and the ability to CONSISTENTLY get kill confirms off SAFE POKES is a HUGE factor in a game where only a handful of characters have real confirms.
How is the MU againest Sheik?
 
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