Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

More like I thought they were slowing down >_>
WHAT A FOOL I WAS.
Patches for eons CONFIRMED.

Or that they truly are listening to certain things... I'm not sure if they're the right things though.
"More shield stun, shields are op, rolls are op"
how about old buffering?

Actually I wonder if the whole clanking with projectiles thing is still the same as it was last patch?

I'm not entirely sold that they're "right" things either, but they are things, and I'll support things. The door is wide open (maybe it always has been ever since Vectoring change?) so they could realistically add in those Brawl favorites too.

 

[Nu~]

I've seen comments that Pac-Man has bad OoS options. He has the fastest up B OoS in the game, albeit with low range, and it beats shield. Who is he being compared to?

Even if it is, we still have Nair OoS

 

[TriTails]

Shaya

Could you list Luigi's aerial safetiness? Some of our board members could use a lift in spirit.

I can't help but wonder now how this is going to change the way we perceive rushdown fighters and how a character with the kind of frame data and raw punishment options as Mac will, in theory, benefit.

Now that you mention it. Mac and his 19% F-smash will probably be having shieldstun madness. Isn't that thing already safe pre-patch? Well, it just got even safer.

*Adds 5 to Mac's ratio to Luigi vs Mac*

 

[Shaya]

Shaya

Could you list Luigi's aerial safetiness? Some of our board members could use a lift in spirit.


Now that you mention it. Mac and his 19% F-smash will probably be having shieldstun madness. Isn't that thing already safe pre-patch? Well, it just got even safer.

*Adds 5 to Mac's ratio to Luigi vs Mac*

Neutral Air Sweet +5
Neutral Air Sour +4
Forward Air +4
Back Air Sweet +5
Back Air Sour +4
Up Air +5
Down Air Sweet +11
Down Air Sour +4

 

[FullMoon]

YOU ARE NOW IN THE THEORYCRAFT ZONE!
Landing nair is nice, otherwise I don't think he is changed much. Probably neutral.

How would shuriken zoning be affected by the shieldstun increase? Shurikens were already a very good projectile so them becoming safer could be pretty fun.

 

[BSP]

Neutral Air Sweet +5
Neutral Air Sour +4
Forward Air +4
Back Air Sweet +5
Back Air Sour +4
Up Air +5
Down Air Sweet +11
Down Air Sour +4

How are you calculating this?

 

[Damandatwin]

How are you calculating this?

I would like to know this too so that I can work out Sonic's data.

 

[TriTails]

Shurikens were already a very good projectile so them becoming safer could be pretty fun.

Gah.

Seriously though. Are all things this patch bring basically 'screw Luigi up'? He relied on run -> shield. That got nerfed. He relied on D-throw for killing setups. That got nerfed. He relied on shields to bypass projectiles. That got nerfed.

What the hell.

Meanwhile, Sheik only get a 0.75% slap on F-air (Again, what the hell. Are they just gonna nerf it till it does 0.5% or something). In return, her F-air got even dumber.

I'm sorry my friends if I look like a fool right now. But I'm depressed on how the already fragile Luigi happened to be hit the hardest in this patch. I hate to be the frame 1 jumpsquatter on jumping into conclusions but we probably can already see him dropping tiers.

I would like to know this too so that I can work out Sonic's data.

IIRC the new shieldstun formula was [(dmg/1.8)+3]. So I think you can just substract the results to the aerial safety data topic Shaya posted a while ago?

EDIT: Nevermind. Just ask Shaya.

 

[Shaya]

How are you calculating this?

Specifically
INT((C3/2.6+5)*(IF(D3>1;MAX(D3/1.25;1);D3)+IF(E3;0.5;0))) - INT(C3/2.6+5) + (K3-INT(C3/2.56))

MAGIC NUMBERS.

I'll update my thread later #_#

 

[Damandatwin]

not much use without meaningful variable names... i'll just let you do it

 

[Radical Larry]

Specifically
INT((C3/2.6+5)*(IF(D3>1;MAX(D3/1.25;1);D3)+IF(E3;0.5;0))) - INT(C3/2.6+5) + (K3-INT(C3/2.56))

MAGIC NUMBERS.

I'll update my thread later #_#

That's almost as complicated as the Pokemon Catch Rate Equation. I'm interested to know, though, Shaya, if you can do Ganondorf, Link and Jigglypuff's data.

 

[DunnoBro]

Luigi's still better than the majority of the cast, he just needs something else to compensate for his poor neutral now.

His frame data lets him 50/50 off his dthrow fine.

Also nerfing sheik fair in this patch would be dumb when so many other characters got the exact same thing.

And honestly, anyone who played both luigi and pre-patch diddy(or other heavily nerfed characters) should have known he was (or needed) to be touched. Top tier or not, there were laaaaarge parts of his kit that just weren't utilized and he was by no stretch of the imagination anything but a poorly-designed character. Similar to pre-patch sonic, or little mac. No, not the best char or broken but clearly stupid.

 

[Ulevo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

 

[Damandatwin]

your table is just shield stun for different damages. it doesn't take anything character or move specific into account and therefore isn't very useful.

 

[Flamecircle]

Someone was saying that projectiles would be less safe on shield now? Can someone explain how that works?

 

[Radical Larry]

Ulevo These seem pretty good, but I think you don't need to only worry about electric modifiers, but also certain flame hit modifiers like Luigi's U-Spec and Little Mac's U-Smash, which seem to add to the frames. Although, you need to go higher, at least up to 42% to 50% damage (which is up to Ganondorf's reversed aerial Warlock Punch and Roy's fully charged Flare Blade). This is because you need to calculate in Smash attacks that deal more than 25% damage.

Damandatwin I believe he might be using this for character damages in comparison, though if you were to look around for sourspots, sweetspots, clean and dirty, maybe the info could be useful?

F Flamecircle I think someone said Mega Man's were less safe on shield. Link's projectiles are still very safe on shield, though. So are Toon Link's and Fox's.

 

[DunnoBro]

Laser's safe on shield because of distance/speed of it not actual shield stun though

 

[G. Stache]

Sorry for tryna change topics, but does anyone know how MK and Roy are handling (or even Falco, an old secondary of mine I've wanted to get back to using)? I've been trying to (re)learn them, but I'm interested on how the patch affected them overall. Not much discussion seems to come onto these three, so I'm I'm just curious on how they're faring so far in the metagame.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sorry for tryna change topics, but does anyone know how MK and Roy are handling (or even Falco, an old secondary of mine I've wanted to get back to using)? I've been trying to (re)learn them, but I'm interested on how the patch affected them overall. Not much discussion seems to come onto these three, so I'm I'm just curious on how they're faring so far in the metagame.

None have them been affected except for the shieldstun, really. Roy and Falco can take the shieldstun nerf really well (Roy's mobility and Falco's jump), but Meta Knight, not so sure about him. Shieldstun might harm him quite a bit.

 

[DunnoBro]

None have them been affected except for the shieldstun, really. Roy and Falco can take the shieldstun nerf really well (Roy's mobility and Falco's jump), but Meta Knight, not so sure about him. Shieldstun might harm him quite a bit.

Actually roy's sourspots are less safe on shield now. So not all gravy on that front.

 

[Flamecircle]

F Flamecircle I think someone said Mega Man's were less safe on shield. Link's projectiles are still very safe on shield, though. So are Toon Link's and Fox's.

Right right, but why?

I don't understand how the change would have hurt.

 

[Amadeus9]

Sorry for tryna change topics, but does anyone know how MK and Roy are handling (or even Falco, an old secondary of mine I've wanted to get back to using)? I've been trying to (re)learn them, but I'm interested on how the patch affected them overall. Not much discussion seems to come onto these three, so I'm I'm just curious on how they're faring so far in the metagame.

I can tell you meta knight was positively affected by this patch. You can play aggro into shield now and be relatively safe. Nair in particular is ridiculously safe on shield. Dash attack and fsmash are also even safer than before. I'm surprised no ones been complaining yet, you generally can't bring up MK without people complaining his dash attack is too good. Now it's basically unpunishable.

 

[FullMoon]

Wait, did they remove all of Pac-Man's glitches?

Does that mean they removed all of the more well-known glitches except for Greninja's hitstun cancel? lol

 

[Shaya]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

If that's correct the formula is closer to (damage / 1.75) + 2.

Lord William's stuff has a 2.5 damage move with 4 frames, so that's what made me expect +3.

 

[Ulevo]

If that's correct the formula is closer to (damage / 1.75) + 2.

Based on your findings with the frames? Also could you clarify my question in the mechanics thread if possible.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirbys N-air is naturally better on shields then before which is certainly a perk because its such a close-ranged move.
Shielding being weaker hurts his approach but he doesn't lose anything for higher shield stun when he himself is attacking.

If I would highlight anyone I would assume its sword/disjointed characters who are now better rewarded for their spacing. Shielding through their spacing is going to be a lot more problematic, I would imagine this is big for Link & Tink in particular.

Yes a character like Pikachu is safer for instance but characters that outrange Pikachu also are, which means making sizable punishes on those characters is going to decrease and reduces notably part of their weakness.

That's the thing. Kirby didn't gain anything, an indirect nerf to his approach and punish game hurt him, since he lacked options in those fields anyways. One thing I like is that retreating f-air is really safe and great for poking in neutral now, but I think this patch hurt Kirby quite a bit. Not to bottom tier tho lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

Like, the shield changes don't negatively affect ANY of my chars (Doc, Mario, Ryu) but I still feel like they increased the stun TOO much. Granted since none of these chars are really reliant on shield (Doc kind of is but his OoS options are still the GOAT in this patch and he has Mario frame data so yeah).

Regardless I think Ryu's Strong Ftilt should never be able to be rolled out of on shield because it's slow and telegraphed. It's the closest thing to a fighting game overhead in this game. Y'all are gonna see more of Ryu's overhead now.

Although all these shield setups are interesting if this shield stun stuff stays I wonder how much we'll even be using shield at this point. Makes me wonder how useful it'll be or how it'll change stuff outside of lower playing levels in the long run. Oh well.

 

[Nobie]

I just posted this in the Mewtwo board but I figure I'd put it here too:

I'm testing out Mewtwo's Jab and it seems to have some interesting mixups with the new shield stun mechanics. Some of the math might be off but I'm testing this in all in training mode.

Mewtwo's base damage for Jab 1 is 4%. This gives it 5 (4?) frames of shield stun.

Mewtwo's rapid jab activates 6 frames after the first hit.

This means that in order to beat his rapid jab after shielding with an attack it needs to come out frame 1. Not even Sheik's frame-2 jab can beat it.

OoS options such as grab can beat it, but these can be out-spaced in a lot of instances such that the OoS move whiffs and rapid jab hits. Probably things like Mario Up B will win, however.

Rolls can get past that the rapid jab, but here's the fun part: Mewtwo if he chooses NOT to rapid jab will recover more quickly than the opponent's roll.

This is something I'm sure a lot of characters can do (haven't test it extensively but based on the frame data of other characters I'd assume so), but this is on top of Mewtwo's other jab properties. Jab 1 has no recoil effect when its disjoint hits other attacks (within 9%), what's sometimes referred to as trample. Jab 1 also combos into grab, and Jab 1 into Disable is also a mixup.

Basically, this means that Mewtwo's Jab is potentially able to win against Attacks, Grabs, AND Shields. Against attacks, possible trample. Against grabs, no grab armor means potentially stuffing the grab attempt. Against shields, a mixup.

 

[BSP]

Wait, did they remove all of Pac-Man's glitches?

Does that mean they removed all of the more well-known glitches except for Greninja's hitstun cancel? lol

No. He has a glitch with his Ftilt.

 

[bc1910]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

If this is correct then Greninja Nair is -4 on shield as I thought.

Fair is -8 which is amazing for a move with so much range. I was right in thinking it's no longer strictly retreating Fair that is safe, as long as you don't land in their grab range you're golden. I mean holy crap, with good spacing you can just jump into them and Fair because the shield pushback is so high too.

Greninja's not getting blockstrings but he's getting better jump-ins. Sadly the aerials themselves are still slow.

 

[warionumbah2]

I can tell you meta knight was positively affected by this patch. You can play aggro into shield now and be relatively safe. Nair in particular is ridiculously safe on shield. Dash attack and fsmash are also even safer than before. I'm surprised no ones been complaining yet, you generally can't bring up MK without people complaining his dash attack is too good. Now it's basically unpunishable.

We basically main the batman of nintendo, we belong in the shadows out of sight.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bruh, you are confusing hitlag with shield stun. Shield stun happens after hitlag.

Two changes this patch:

1. The shielder now experiences the same hitlag as the attacker when a move has a hitlag modifier.
2. Shield stun is increased.

THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS.

Oh wait i didnt know about the first change.

LOLOLLOL

RYU FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!

 

[Locke 06]

Lol. Most things are less safe on shield at a high level than they were before.

And you don't even know.

Have fun talking about the change in mechanics when you don't understand them.

 

[Mr. Johan]

1.1.1 Patch Shieldstun Gains Character Tiers.

Sakurai Why Tier:

OK Now That's Scary Tier:

Adding To What We Already Had Tier:

We Got Something Too Tier:


That sound about right?

 

[Wintropy]

1.1.1 Patch Shieldstun Gains Character Tiers.

Sakurai Why Tier:

OK Now That's Scary Tier:

Adding To What We Already Had Tier:

We Got Something Too Tier:


That sound about right?

There's talk that Pit may have benefited from the new mechanics. @LancerStaff is currently testing it, but he reckons his airs have become safer; n-air in particular may be safe on shield, which, if true, is a very big buff for Pit's approach / punish options.

You'd have to ask him, though. He's cleverer than me when it comes to this stuff.

EDIT: Just saw that you remembered Palutena.

I don't know if it's that big a deal in her case. In theory, the nerf-by-proxy to her grab potential is pretty damning.

Theorycraft until proven otherwise, even so. Hey, safer smashes is good, I'm happy with that!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lol. Most things are less safe on shield at a high level than they were before.

And you don't even know.

Have fun talking about the change in mechanics when you don't understand them.

I have no intention of discussing it any further. My only intent is to now abuse it and not get abused by it.

FYI your post amused me.

Probably the air of superiority that surrounded it.

Please amuse me more.

 

[Locke 06]

I have no intention of discussing it any further. My only intent is to now abuse it and not get abused by it.

FYI your post amused me.

Probably the air of superiority that surrounded it.

Please amuse me more.

Sheik FAir is 1 (maybe 2) frames less safe in certain situations.


Boom.

Edit: the you wasn't towards you. Sorry, it was a you that referred to the CCI thread as a whole.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thats not amusing. I want her to be safe.

She needs all the help she can get vs Ryu now. hahah.

 

[Nu~]

1.1.1 Patch Shieldstun Gains Character Tiers.

Sakurai Why Tier:

OK Now That's Scary Tier:

Adding To What We Already Had Tier:

We Got Something Too Tier:


That sound about right?

Pacman may potentially be up there. This patch fixed up his weakness to shield but we're still exploring the possibilities.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Exactly how safe is Shulk on shield now? It seems that he got quite a large buff, especially with his new shield break combos.

How exactly does the shieldstun overlapping with the shield lock work? does shieldstun only matter if it imparts more then 8 frames?