Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

There's talk that Pit may have benefited from the new mechanics. LancerStaff is currently testing it, but he reckons his airs have become safer; n-air in particular may be safe on shield, which, if true, is a very big buff for Pit's approach / punish options.

You'd have to ask him, though. He's cleverer than me when it comes to this stuff.

Well, the long of the short is that in a strictly tier sense wether or not Pit's gaining or losing comes down to matchups against ZSS and Pika.

ZSS is worse at keeping people out with her stun moves, but now Nair is ridiculous. Pit gets in easier but so does she. Factoring in what Pit's potentially getting from the shield stun changes... It's hard to tell. Hoping it'll be remotely even.

Pika got better in the matchup in every way besides Thunder Jolt I believe. It'd be pretty clear what the net effect of the changes are if we had any idea what they really were before the patch... Some Pikas say Pit wins, some Pits say Pika wins, with a whole bunch more neutral on the matter. If Pit previously won the matchup by being effective at keeping Pika out then Pit would probably still be winning the matchup. If Pit was losing then he's probably losing much harder...

But then again if ZSS and Pika get instanerfed next patch then Pit will at least be neutral against basically everybody.

 

[Zelder]

At this point I don't think ZSS is ever getting nerfed. The developers seem pretty happy with where she is.

 

[Jucchan]

Elusive footage of Japanese Mewtwo (Game 2)

 

[TurboLink]

At this point I don't think ZSS is ever getting nerfed. The developers seem pretty happy with where she is.

I think ZSS is more likely to get nerfed than Sheik is to be honest.

 

[Fatmanonice]

1.1.1 Patch Shieldstun Gains Character Tiers.

Sakurai Why Tier:

OK Now That's Scary Tier:

Adding To What We Already Had Tier:

We Got Something Too Tier:


That sound about right?

People have suggested that the heavy projectile users and most of the swordsmen have benefited too.

Setting Up Camp Tier:
Fair/Fsmash Are No Longer Punish Bait Tier:

 

[LancerStaff]

People have suggested that the heavy projectile users and most of the swordsmen have benefited too.

Setting Up Camp Tier:
Fair/Fsmash Are No Longer Punish Bait Tier:

Mm, Marth and especially Roy don't really benefit since their sourspots aren't as safe as before.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt's projectiles are just slightly more positive on shield at most. Gunmen still don't frame trap for shield grabs completely on hit, can shield bounce similar, and frisbee seems the same essentially.

His fair and dair are what were helped most. Dair is now a much safer on shield kill set-up, and fair is safer on misspaced sourspot. (And very safe on sweetspot. Not enough to grab but locks them in shield long enough for a retreating projectile set-up to be more safe)

But, his neutral was already superb and his shield sitting game is less potent now so he doesn't really benefit much from what I've seen imo

 

[Jams.]

People have suggested that the heavy projectile users and most of the swordsmen have benefited too.

Setting Up Camp Tier:
Fair/Fsmash Are No Longer Punish Bait Tier:

I don't think projectile users have benefited from this patch. The increase in shieldstun projectiles got has been mitigated by the other changes to shield.

• Many projectiles have hitlag modifiers lower than 1, these are now less safe due to the shield hitlag changes.
• Shield lock time now overlays shieldstun instead of taking effect after shieldstun ends. Doesn't affect perfect shields because they ignore shield lock, but this means you can unshield more quickly after slightly missing a perfect shield. This should affect difficult to powershield projectiles like slingshot, lemons, needles, etc. This change also affects projectiles more than "normals," since you'll be dropping shield more often against projectiles rather than using a default OoS option like grab, roll, or jump (shield lock doesn't affect these options).
  
• Projectiles are more likely to be perfect shielded since most can be perfect shielded on reaction. Perfect shielding now deceases shieldstun (though it is still higher than last patch I believe).

 

[TurboLink]

What exactly is hitlag and why is it significant?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, serious question.

This is now a thing with Diddy http://oddshot.tv/shot/kirambaztokibz-20151001175225591

This has been shown to happen with multiple characters trying to grab him.

Depending on how frequently this glitch can come up... what exactly do TOs do about this? Because that's potentially kinda broken depending on the exact details for it.

 

[LancerStaff]

So, serious question.

This is now a thing with Diddy http://oddshot.tv/shot/kirambaztokibz-20151001175225591

This has been shown to happen with multiple characters trying to grab him.

Depending on how frequently this glitch can come up... what exactly do TOs do about this? Because that's potentially kinda broken depending on the exact details for it.

Think he's going to be banned until 1.1.2, which with something as game breaking as this is probably coming soon.

 

[Nu~]

I'm willing to wager that a new patch will come with the smash ballot character

 

[DunnoBro]

Techei's theory on the diddy glitch is that it spawns when diddy throws the banana and is hit by a multi-hit move. (Generally off shield)

Command grabs don't work on him, either.

 

[Vipermoon]

So, serious question.

This is now a thing with Diddy http://oddshot.tv/shot/kirambaztokibz-20151001175225591

This has been shown to happen with multiple characters trying to grab him.

Depending on how frequently this glitch can come up... what exactly do TOs do about this? Because that's potentially kinda broken depending on the exact details for it.

Okay so we don't know what triggers it?

 

[Asdioh]

If ever there was a time for a hotfix to come to smash, this would be it!
After Nintendo sees the shield breaking Lucario type stuff, and Diddy being IMMUNE TO GRABS, I could see it happening.

 

[⑨ball]

I'm willing to wager that a new patch will come with the smash ballot character

Veterinarian Mario otw?

It's likely come with some changes to the cast again as well. Can't imagine they're quite through with Ike and the charge characters just yet.

 

[bc1910]

So after murdering everyone for months with hoo hah, Diddy is now immune to grabs?

The irony is killing me.

 

[DunnoBro]

So after murdering everyone for months with hoo hah, Diddy is now immune to grabs?

The irony is killing me.

"No hoo hah for me? No hoo anything for you"

 

[mimgrim]

What exactly is hitlag and why is it significant?

Hitlag is what happens when you connect a hitbox with an hurtbox.

When a hitbox connects with a hurtbox both will briefly freeze in place before continuing with their specific animation.

^Two examples of what hitlag looks like do you see that brief pause during the attack? That is hitlag).

I'll let someone else explain the why.

 

[Djent]

The proper course of action for dealing with Hologram Diddy depends on how the glitch is initiated. Might just be able to say "if you initiate this, you lose the match" without "banning" anything. That'd be nice but it might not work out that way.

Also, I'd try to predict Big House results but with all these crazy changes, why bother?
EDIT: Well I stand corrected, they're using 1.1.0 it appears.

 

[Kurri ★]

The proper course of action for dealing with Hologram Diddy depends on how the glitch is initiated. Might just be able to say "if you initiate this, you lose the match" without "banning" anything. That'd be nice but it might not work out that way.

Also, I'd try to predict Big House results but with all these crazy changes, why bother?

Well Big House is going to use 1.1.0 so predictions shouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The proper course of action for dealing with Hologram Diddy depends on how the glitch is initiated. Might just be able to say "if you initiate this, you lose the match" without "banning" anything. That'd be nice but it might not work out that way.

Also, I'd try to predict Big House results but with all these crazy changes, why bother?

They aren't using the newest patch I believe.

 

[DunnoBro]

All in favor of calling the glitch "hoo nah"?

 

[Antonykun]

People have suggested that the heavy projectile users and most of the swordsmen have benefited too.

Setting Up Camp Tier:
Fair/Fsmash Are No Longer Punish Bait Tier:

*whistles innocently*
Also omg Swordfighter f-air might just blockstring into d-tilt

 

[LancerStaff]

The proper course of action for dealing with Hologram Diddy depends on how the glitch is initiated. Might just be able to say "if you initiate this, you lose the match" without "banning" anything. That'd be nice but it might not work out that way.

If it's initiated by hitting him with a multihit move after a banana toss like DunnoBro says then that kinda invalidates Pit ten ways to hell because that leaves him with two aerials, one throw, one smash, and two tilts to work with for normals.

 

[DunnoBro]

If it's initiated by hitting him with a multihit move after a banana toss like DunnoBro says then that kinda invalidates Pit ten ways to hell because that leaves him with two aerials, one throw, one smash, and two tilts to work with for normals.

Actually it's just hitting A out of shield during multihits. he only tried with banana since that's how people accidentally did the glitch at first (normally you wouldn't try to jab oos with diddy)

Techei's claiming it's very easy to set-up in certain MUs but I haven't tested myself.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually it's just hitting A out of shield during multihits. he only tried with banana since that's how people accidentally did the glitch at first (normally you wouldn't try to jab oos with diddy)

Techei's claiming it's very easy to set-up in certain MUs but I haven't tested myself.

Well, my point mostly stands.

I guess if Diddy activates it he'll be D/Q'd then instead of banning him?

 

[TTTTTsd]

So as everyone knows Doc's Bair is really good.

This is a pretty viable setup that only requires you hit a fullhop Bair. Doesn't even need a ****ing sweetspot Nair.
ROFLLLL THIS CHANGE (should probably be reverted but hey)

 

[Vipermoon]

Smashfield Weeklies #9 is tonight (lots of smash 4 big house top players will be there) and TBH is 15 minutes away from there and starts tomorrow. All will be on the 1.1.0 patch. I am attending both and will be sure to use Marth's sour spots and shield breaker and punish things out of shield in a way of saying goodbye to the old Smash 4.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Well, my point mostly stands.

I guess if Diddy activates it he'll be D/Q'd then instead of banning him?

You're essentially asking the Diddy player to not shieldgrab anything ever then, if the idea that the glitch happens if he presses A oos is true.

I don't know how this can be monitored in tournament.

 

[Sir Tundra]

The noo hoo gltich is something that should be fixed immediately.

There's no way diddy should stay like this for months he'll be banned in multiple tournaments.

So as everyone knows Doc's Bair is really good.

This is a pretty viable setup that only requires you hit a fullhop Bair. Doesn't even need a ****ing sweetspot Nair.
ROFLLLL THIS CHANGE (should probably be reverted but hey)

It's... It's...

Beautiful!!!

 

[Vyrnx]

People have suggested that the heavy projectile users and most of the swordsmen have benefited too.

Setting Up Camp Tier:
Fair/Fsmash Are No Longer Punish Bait Tier:

Samus definitely benefited from the shield changes a lot. SH FF bair in particular now gives us a real neutral. Also Samus was and is one of the few characters who has been able to break shields pretty frequently in tournaments. With the new hitstun change, CS's hitstun is insane. People can get trapped in shields that get broken/very whittled. Bombs have great hitstun now too, and zair is more obnoxious on shield.

It doesn't hurt her much because she isn't a character that should be in a situation where the opponent is up close attacking her shield. Her OOS is not good (up b is okay), so this patch didn't take anything away. It just gave her a lot of stuff that will warrant a lot of testing.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So as everyone knows Doc's Bair is really good.

This is a pretty viable setup that only requires you hit a fullhop Bair. Doesn't even need a ****ing sweetspot Nair.
ROFLLLL THIS CHANGE (should probably be reverted but hey)

1.1.1 Patch Shieldstun Gains Character Tiers.

Sakurai Why Tier:

OK Now That's Scary Tier:

Adding To What We Already Had Tier:

We Got Something Too Tier:


That sound about right?

 

[PK Gaming]

So as everyone knows Doc's Bair is really good.

This is a pretty viable setup that only requires you hit a fullhop Bair. Doesn't even need a ****ing sweetspot Nair.
ROFLLLL THIS CHANGE (should probably be reverted but hey)

Wait, you serious? Doctor Mario is one of the most insignificant characters in competitive play and you want this nerfed?

The fact that he now has a notable niche over Mario is all kinds of awesome

 

[Megamang]

Doc could keep that and id be happy with where he stands...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait, you serious? Doctor Mario is one of the most insignificant characters in competitive play and you want this nerfed?

The fact that he now has a notable niche over Mario is all kinds of awesome

I mean, for the better of the game probably, but if it stays I won't be too adamantly upset~

 

[Nu~]

I mean, for the better of the game probably, but if it stays I won't be too adamantly upset~

Pretty sure It won't be enough to affect the overall health of the game that drastically.

 

[Nobie]

Between Patch 1.1.1 and V-Canceling or whatever being discovered in Melee this might be the craziest couple of days that Smash Bros. as a franchise has ever experienced, at least in terms of gameplay changes.

I was thinking about this patch, and how strangely round-about a way the whole shield and hitstun modifier changes have gone to try and fix not only gameplay issues but also balance/roster concerns.

-A lot of the perceived weaker characters were there due to the power of shields, and now characters like Samus can play their mix of up-close and projectile game with the comfort that they're going to be able to pressure better.
-Lucina has generally been seen as strictly inferior to Marth. That might still be the case, but now her differences with Marth are much clearer. Marth should tipper OR ELSE, Lucina's swift yet laggy attacks are safer on shield (but still punishable on whiff).
-Sheik's fair has been indirectly nerfed due to all of these changes
-And so on

I wonder if the dev team felt that making small frame changes here and there just wasn't having the desired effect. After all, while numbers like damage can be modified on a decimal level, there's no such thing as "half a frame." Maybe they wanted to make just such a change to the system and making numbers go up and down like they had in the past just wouldn't have been able to accomplish all of this.

 

[⑨ball]

This is a pretty viable setup that only requires you hit a fullhop Bair. Doesn't even need a ****ing sweetspot Nair.
ROFLLLL THIS CHANGE (should probably be reverted but hey)

Is it really though?
I've been seeing a lot of these type of shield break "combos" going around, and the shield stun values don't add up to actually being worth more than calling them sub-par frame traps at best. I might be underestimating how fast Doc is here, but I highly doubt DK can't just roll out before the nair even connects.

I'm also not sure Doc wants to be within grab range just to try this.

 

[LancerStaff]

You're essentially asking the Diddy player to not shieldgrab anything ever then, if the idea that the glitch happens if he presses A oos is true.

I don't know how this can be monitored in tournament.

I mean, it's better then an outright ban. It seems to be only during multihit moves. After should be fair game.

It's like the old freeze/soft lock glitches from before. Initiator loses.