Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[ARGHETH]

Can't go one postwithout the little quips huh? Fine. You took an aside comment from my post and made that the primary point of my post, drawing it out as far as you could.

Ironically, your initial post (on this topic) took a small part of a person's post (the poster not liking to watch Melee due to perceived smaller number of playable characters) and completely ignored the point of it (opinion on balancing Sm4sh).

Melee came out in a different time. They had less development time and other resources etc, so there are less characters in that game. Still, a good number of the characters place well in finals, even over a decade later. Its a fairly well balanced game despite the fact that balance probably wasn't really a primary goal in development. Just because a game comes out later with over 2x as many characters and has a couple more characters that place decently doesn't make Melee a less balanced game.

Melee does have almost literally a decade's worth of experience over Sm4sh, so there's that. Also, having more characters placing well does mean that it's more balanced at top level. If you're going to look at it compared to the total cast, then you should probably look at how lower tiers fare between the two games, too.

Yes, percentages DO matter in the point I was making. The absolutely false notion that "hurr Melee is boring because it's the same 3 characters" is the inane thing argued. Different time. Different roster size. What is so hard for you to understand about that?

Seriously, cool the attitude. It's unnecessary. And second, the initial point was that the person preferred not to watch Melee because they saw Sm4sh as having greater character diversity at higher levels.

Haha, it's like you're saying that if melee had 19/26 balanced characters it would still be less balanced than a game with 55 characters and 20 viable ones, just because the number of viable characters is higher, and even though the game with less characters is much older.

The point is you'll see more characters at top level. Looking overall would mean looking at all the characters, which is both very difficult and not the point of this thread.

I can't believe i have to explain this to you.

And this is early in Smash 4s life, you think the number of viable characters is going to increase?

Didn't Melee's number of viable characters increase over time?

Lord have mercy. I'm not replying to this line of thought again.

Aww...

(Also, sorry for the off-topicness)

 

[Browny]

I don't get the logic behind 'this character only has one good player, so they shouldn't be considered viable because it's an outlier' how does the number of players performing with the character at a high level affect how good their kit is?

Even if it's only one player performing, that shows that the characters kit is good enough to do well at the highest level if you're a good enough player. It proves that there is an achievable skill level that allows someone to overcome the character's flaws.

If people are going to confuse how far you can take a character in tourneys with how much skill they require then you might as well say that no one is viable because 99% of the playerbase isn't good enough to place in money. Might as well say all the top players are just 'outliers', seeing as they're only a fraction of the player-base of their respective characters.

The logic only applies if people are talking about assumed mid-tiers or lower in which case good performances are outliers to public opinion.

No matter what many mid tier or lower characters do, they will never be given credit that matches how they perform, for an unpopular character. It seems like are some examples in this game while Ike suffered super hard from this bias in Brawl.

If you are an assumed high-tier character though, its a free ride into high tier because the 'outlier' perfectly fits the assumption. Look at the mad bias for right now despite Pac-man doing more than Ryu ever has, for longer periods of time.

That's literally all there is to it; there is no logic. Only confirmation bias

 

[Minordeth]

Eh, when people say "so and so is probably an outlier" they really are implicating the statistical meaning of "outlier" - as in, we only have one of these things so we have no way of seeing if it is a trend or not.

Characters with more than one rep with results are by definition not "outliers."

In fighting games, even though tiers exist, players with absurd skill and specific character loyalty do occasionally come up. They can inflate a character's worth beyond where they would naturally be. Low tier heroes exist, after all. With that said, it is difficult to get repeatable results from different tournies with a character that is low tier. It's just plain harder to win.

Again, this could apply to Peach and SlayerZ (although I seriously doubt it) and Ryo/Ryuga and Ike (again, doubts). Until we have more data points we won't really know. Now, SlayerZ can be like ESAM and take a bunch of tournaments which gives us more data points, or other high level reps can pick up Peach and give us a richer set of data points. It's why we know ZSS is top tier and why I don't buy Pickachu as a top 5 character, yet.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Now onto the Mii I also know a lot about: Swordfighter. He's basically got 3 of the best moves he could want in 1-1-1-1: he's the Mii hurt the least by that arbitrary rule. I'll put it bluntly: if you think characters like Roy, Ike and Marth should be up there you probably should put Swordfighter right near them in a neat little bunch.

His buffs have been great for wracking on more damage, speed, and being a bit more safe. Fair can cancel into kill moves (and jab can too as a 50/50), his recovery has the sexy spike, up air can kill and combos out of throws very well, down air can poke shields, makes coming down nice, and can combo into footstool nicely for combos and/or off stage death. Bair can do nice damage and is rather fast/kill move. It can be comboed into too! Down tilt can combo into nair which can actually end up with grab resets at mid percents or you can just Fair for damage.

Hows about up air into up air TRUE COMBOS at kill percents? (is more complicated but is honestly landable for real)

He's a solid character with decent atributes, combos, and a disjoint. Don't count him out. He's nowheres near this whole (bottom character) thing people keep throwing him in. It's hard to cut the "worst character in the game" attitudes people got about him before ignoring he existed back in the early days

While I agree that swordfighter is kinda solid, in default size he struggles to actually land his kills, which is a major bummer. Also disagree on 1111 having three of his best moves. Shuriken of light is a better neutral special, hero's spin is a wastly superior up-b because it adds a very potent OOS shield kill move which also covers ledge roll and ledge getup nicely, being forgiving by keeping you from getting punished even if you mistime it due to it having lasting sourspot hitboxes. Slash launcher is oftentimes a quicker safer horizontal recovery option and something you can use for a surprise burst attack, works better for swordfighter than Ikes quick attack for him; since swordfighter is slow and lacks horizontal range it can be used to hit people who think they are at a safe distance and it does so quick enough for them not to block on reaction unlike airborne assault. And you can do some wicked stuff with chakram though the sacrifice of horizontal recovery hurts. Might still be the Mii least hurt by that arbitrary rule tho

 

[Dre89]

Eh, when people say "so and so is probably an outlier" they really are implicating the statistical meaning of "outlier" - as in, we only have one of these things so we have no way of seeing if it is a trend or not.

Characters with more than one rep with results are by definition not "outliers."

In fighting games, even though tiers exist, players with absurd skill and specific character loyalty do occasionally come up. They can inflate a character's worth beyond where they would naturally be. Low tier heroes exist, after all. With that said, it is difficult to get repeatable results from different tournies with a character that is low tier. It's just plain harder to win.

Again, this could apply to Peach and SlayerZ (although I seriously doubt it) and Ryo/Ryuga and Ike (again, doubts). Until we have more data points we won't really know. Now, SlayerZ can be like ESAM and take a bunch of tournaments which gives us more data points, or other high level reps can pick up Peach and give us a richer set of data points. It's why we know ZSS is top tier and why I don't buy Pickachu as a top 5 character, yet.

Position on the tier list and viability aren't the same thing. Someone placing with solo Peach doesn't necessarily prove she's top tier, but it proves she's viable regardless of where she belongs on the list. Presumably it would also prove that everyone who is rightfully above on her the list is viable too.

It only takes one player to prove that a character's kit is good enough to perform at a high level assuming you're good enough. Saying that it doesn't count because it's an outlier is like saying attack X into Y isn't a true combo because you only pulled it off once. Doesn't matter if you only did it once, it's still a true combo, it's just hard to do. Doesn't matter if only one player is performing, it's still possible to do with the character's kit, it's just hard to do.

 

[Minordeth]

Position on the tier list and viability aren't the same thing. Someone placing with solo Peach doesn't necessarily prove she's top tier, but it proves she's viable regardless of where she belongs on the list. Presumably it would also prove that everyone who is rightfully above on her the list is viable too.

I thought I was clear in my initial post, but I guess not. But I did note that here (I should have said "unlikely"):

With that said, it is difficult to get repeatable results from different tournies with a character that is low tier. It's just plain harder to win.

On the previous page I said that Peach/Ike/whatever are legitimately good characters, without specifying a tier placement.

It only takes one player to prove that a character's kit is good enough to perform at a high level assuming you're good enough. Saying that it doesn't count because it's an outlier is like saying attack X into Y isn't a true combo because you only pulled it off once. Doesn't matter if you only did it once, it's still a true combo, it's just hard to do. Doesn't matter if only one player is performing, it's still possible to do with the character's kit, it's just hard to do.

Any Sm4sh character can compete at a high level given player skill. As has been discussed, especially early on, the gap between the cast isn't as big as other Smash games. Where it gets tricky is determining how good a character is, with limited information to draw on. I think Peach/Ike/Ryu/Pikachu are legitimately good characters. How viable their respective toolkits are remains to be seen, and it's harder to make that conclusion with one visible rep.

 

[Shaya]

1. How frequently are "results" happening
Basically, local, regional and larger, on most occasions should suffice! Currently we rate nationals pretty highly and we probably should, they tend to have names at them that take up a hyper majority of our focus in meta advancement. But we honestly don't have enough tournaments (that we can at least reference) to differ characters "close" at all. I don't believe there are enough high level players either yet to take results as indicative in many instances anyway.

2. How many contrasting results are there
People are not going to trust the results of a character without knowing all side of its endeavors. Is it beating players/regions or are they beating characters? Have we seen enough indications to show that both sides are fairly skilled in a match up, are playing well, and hence there is consistency when those factors are true (respective of player skill)?

3. How many people are producing those results
The more people doing well, the better. The more regions, the better. The more exposure of these results, the better.

A single player with consistent top results didn't stop Pika struggling to make top 10 in Brawl. There were more players doing well at various levels with Pikachu in Brawl too. Compared to now, Pikachu was not the "majority" of top level play we saw over Brawl's entire history, while in Smash4 ESAM has made splashes from very early on in ways the entire Western scene would've had focused on (Sky invitational onward) and many have felt confident putting him top 5; it's kinda fair in one way but does contradict some ideas we would normally abide by. Japan's opinion of him at 20ish or worse (similar thing in Brawl) is all to do with them taking ESAM (who they watch and have always watched, similar to Anther when he was the strongest Pika with results) with reservation.
Rosalina has at the top only had Dabuz but at a local level she's been seeing strong results since release, regionally does well (SoCal, Florida, Texas, Midwest from what I see) and obviously has a lot of advantages in match ups at most levels. These Rosas bar Dabuz have relevant connections with some of the biggest names in the game, while (almost) the only two NA Pikachu's I'm aware of in Z (Vegas, 4th on their PR) & Kenny (MDVA, 16th) have pretty underwhelming results to their name (despite Z being the second best US Pika in late Brawl).

A strong player like Abadango gets sporadic major wins over players with Pacman, and a heavily irregular result (compared to his home ranking of around 20th) at a major international with Wario at evo. Wario was a foreign concept to many of us once, but I'd assume at this stage most have a Wario nearby they have to worry about. Contrasting to Pacman who we only see 1 player of mostly (Zage I think is the one I get to watch on Xanadu otherwise, very crisp ) and having this regional tournament win (one of his only?), luckily getting through Umeki with Metafraud after Pac got two stocked. I think this is tournament was enough to show he is a possible contender for a good Sheik match up, but I'd like to see it a few times first, and even then it doesn't necessarily make him a top threat (could very well spearhead it though).

Ryu has suddenly blown up in a single tournament, I did say 2.0 didn't I? look they're literally the same character, hair and a bandana A few tilts combos that do like 20% into an up tilting thing that kills at 90%, sounds.... familiar (shout outs to Snake: we miss you lots please hurry and come back @Nintendo @Konami).
But in all seriousness I doubt many players up until now considered him enough of a threat to learn the match up. He definitely looks like he could be the one to break the stranglehold the top ten have over opinions though. For what it's worth Ramin didn't place him in top ten and this was like... a day before Paragon

 

[Routa]

Did someone mention Mii Swordfighter?
Why do I see people puting Mii Swordfighter so low in every tier list? And I have never heard "the reason" why he is placed so low. Is he so low 'cause of his height and weight? MM Swordfighter is not as bad as people think. Here is MM Swordfighter's data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Mii Swordfighter
Not bad, eh?

Well is it his specials? 1111 is okish. Gale Strike is one of the best moves he has along with Counter. His default Up-B is okish recovery move (worse version of Kirby's), but it is great for edgeguarding (dat spike). Airborne Assault is nice recovery move that can also kill... BUT it is laggy, can be punished really hard and puts you into freefall state. So does he suck cause of specials? Nah...

Maybe it has something to do with his normal moves? Dair and Uair are both godlikes (Dair can from time to time hit foe even when foe has his shield on due to high shield damage). He/she/it has ok jab and okish tilts. His D-smash is one of the better ones (near Mario lvl). His U-smash in the other hand has very odd hitbox wich makes it kinda meh as a kill move, but is good anti-air. What about throws? D-throw and U-throw are both combo throws (-> Uair which can kill kinda early). B-throw and F-throw are good ways to get enemy off-stage where you can easily kill them with well placed Fair.

So why is he so low? As far as I know he is average character when it comes to his framedata and theory so placing him in the bottom 10 feels a bit too much. The only reason atm why Mii Swordfighter is that low is lack of players.

 

[Browny]

Ryu has suddenly blown up in a single tournament

This is precisely what I'm talking about with confirmation bias.

People WANT to see Ryu being top tier, so when they see Paragon they go "wow! A Ryu was seen at 5th, 7th and 9th place at a national, top tier threat"

When in reality, what happened was a Sheik main used Ryu in a losing set, a Sonic main used Ryu in a in a ditto and only one actual Ryu main placed 9th.

Nothing matters except Trelas performance and we all know he is capable of doing the same feat with Mii Swordfighter, so what does it prove? Literally only one data set to work off, on the back of a player who is famous for doing the same thing with mid/low tier characters. Ultimately Trela is the outlier, since he is the only one who actually won sets with Ryu.

I do think Ryu is a good character and I have seen what 6wx, mr.r and trela do to people with Ryu in their locals. But when the big $ are on the line, only one of them actually stuck to using him, the rest only pulled him out as a last resort (and in mr.r's case, lost).

I hardly call a single ryu main placing 9th and example of 'blowing up' at a single tournament. Peach did that more than Ryu did.

 

[Nobie]

A lot of the Swordfighter stigma comes from the fact that he wasn't a particularly great character a few patches ago. He had a couple of good aerials (up air, down air), and a whole of subpar stuff otherwise. He wasn't without his strengths, but there seemed little reason to use him over other swords.

Then he got a 14% bair, better Nair, an airborne assault that DOESN'T cause him to slide off the ledge and die, and more.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rosalina does really meh vs a good chunk of the high+ tiers.

She loses to sheik, pika, zss, mk, falcon, fox, probably Ryu too. This is not the spread of a top 3-5 character in my opinion. Just losing to the super common captain falcon should be a red flag.

Furthermore remember that Dabuz is a co-rosalina main and uses his olimar a lot. He likely would not be placing as well without olimar so it's even odd to claim he's a good example of her viability.

While I believe pikachu, diddy, and mario likely have a similar amount of bad mus, the fact they fair better vs sheik gives them an edge over rosalina.

Similarly, I can see sonic falling quite low after a while. In japan he's certainly viable, but here where against a knowledgeable opponent you NEED to win game 1 or eventually NEED to beat characters on bf/dreamland/halberd/delfino/etc generally ones really great on those stages just gives sonic a hard to see but irrefutable weakness in a tournament environment.

 

[|RK|]

This is precisely what I'm talking about with confirmation bias.

People WANT to see Ryu being top tier, so when they see Paragon they go "wow! A Ryu was seen at 9th, 7th and 5th place at a national, top tier threat"

When in reality, what happened was a Sheik main used Ryu in a losing set, a Sonic main used Ryu in a in a ditto and only one actual Ryu main placed 9th.

Nothing matters except Trelas performance and we all know he is capable of doing the same feat with Mii Swordfighter, so what does it prove? Literally only one data set to work off, on the back of a player who is famous for doing the same thing with mid/low tier characters. Ultimately Trela is the outlier, since he is the only one who actually won sets with Ryu.

I do think Ryu is a good character and I have seen what 6wx, mr.r and trela do to people with Ryu in their locals. But when the big $ are on the line, only one of them actually stuck to using him, the rest only pulled him out as a last resort (and in mr.r's case, lost).

I hardly call a single ryu main placing 9th and example of 'blowing up' at a single tournament. Peach did that more than Ryu did.

I disagree.

6WX using Ryu in a ditto to beat the Ryu (whose performance "mattered") still means something. The Sheik main that pulled out Ryu to come back when they were losing also matters a lot. Especially since neither of these are pocket cases - my understanding says that these top players have practiced Ryu for some time. I really don't think you can throw off their results - they used Ryu to win games, and that's very much important.

 

[LightLV]

Too bad on said moves, Link's frame data is just garbage for CQC. His ftilt is active at the same frame as his fsmash (frame 15) while his dash attack is... even slower (frame 20). It doesn't help a character much to have multiple killing moves if they are laggy, predictable, and can't be set up with something else. And on to the fact that Tink's 2nd fsmash has crazy knock back (130 BKB) and the first fsmash comes out at the same frame as link's (again frame 15). So the point I'm making is that both links have kill moves and almost Tink's entire moveset has better frame data. Tack on that Tink is very floaty (48th in fall speed and fast fall speed), a better recovery, and a kill confirm off of a projectile and that leads to the conclusion that yes, Tink is objectively better. Link does have (correct me if I'm wrong) a slightly larger grab reach, and is heavier, but that's all he has over his toony counterpart.


Oh God, they BETTER not have jab lock.

It doesn't matter what Toon Link's frame data says, he is simply not winning a normals war with Link. his range is significantly worse. Link's normals and projectiles all have far greater priority as well. Toon Link's bombs are literally eaten by Link's, and they're like his best asset -- In fact, there aren't many projectiles in this game (other than maybe Thoron) that will actually beat Link's bomb. "Slightly Larger" grab reach is a massive understatement, it's not even a contest, Link can grab you a country over. His Upthrow kills and his downthrow is a combo setup. Most of his aerials are completely safe. An Nair (extremely easy to hit with) that taps you and knocks you down without a tech can be confirmed into an Fsmash kill at close range or a dash attack at long range.

Toon Link is also missing Link's Nair which is easily one of the best in the game and actually safe on block in alot of situations because of its hitbox size. Link can also use his Dair offstange without killing himself, also with excellent priority and hitboxes. Same with UpB, on recovery he can actually trap AND kill opponents trying to edgeguard him. His arrows are much faster and can reach the edge of the map without a fullcharge and without vanishing. Much bigger hitbox on boomberang. ALL of Link's smash attacks will convincingly kill you, and his full combo Fsmash will likely kill you on the edge if you get caught at 50%, probably with minimal charge, and almost certainly with Rage, which isn't hard for him to get being heavy.

Toon Link isn't bad, but objectively better than LINK? Yeah, no. He's probably really aggravating, but even Samus can succeed at being aggravating.

I'd honestly call Link one of the better balanced characters. He has alot of ways to kill you, everyone one of his specials are functional, and he has alot of really slow frame data mixed in with ridiculously safe options with good hitboxes.

 

[warionumbah2]

Abadango has the best secondary metaknight, his punish game is on point and he gets consistent ff bair spikes into dtilt lock. His metaknight is a metafraud (picking him up to counter sheik hur dur) but he's the best fraud.

Did abadango use metaknight in brawl? @Pacman9

About the tyrant vs dabux thing that was touched upon a few pages ago, dabuz labbed the **** out of the MU he knew metaknight was a threat and worked hard. Tyrant didn't practice the MU probably thought "lol I got this its only rosalina". Then he loses. Even if you do well against a top tier you still gotta lab it up, they're top tier for a reason. He's much yet to learn.

 

[Shaya]

This is precisely what I'm talking about with confirmation bias.

People WANT to see Ryu being top tier, so when they see Paragon they go "wow! A Ryu was seen at 9th, 7th and 5th place at a national, top tier threat"

When in reality, what happened was a Sheik main used Ryu in a losing set, a Sonic main used Ryu in a in a ditto and only one actual Ryu main placed 9th.

Nothing matters except Trelas performance and we all know he is capable of doing the same feat with Mii Swordfighter, so what does it prove? Literally only one data set to work off, on the back of a player who is famous for doing the same thing with mid/low tier characters. Ultimately Trela is the outlier, since he is the only one who actually won sets with Ryu.

I do think Ryu is a good character and I have seen what 6wx, mr.r and trela do to people with Ryu in their locals. But when the big $ are on the line, only one of them actually stuck to using him, the rest only pulled him out as a last resort (and in mr.r's case, lost).

I hardly call a single ryu main placing 9th and example of 'blowing up' at a single tournament. Peach did that more than Ryu did.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's thanks to those (and other) locals that people were spurred on to think Ryu is strong. It suddenly having anecdotes at the highest level with money on the line is less of a confirmation bias and more of a logic.
The rest you're pretty right about, Ramin did lose the set, 6WX did only get seen using it in the ditto (although he's been using him for a while), Ryu by himself getting 9th is still pretty alright, but it's getting overhyped by the minor usage of him for the 7th and 5th placers.
That's why we would need to see more of it before it proves anything. Will people blindly put him in top 10 now? Yeah probably. Ramin did earnestly attempt to win with Ryu and got very close to doing so, but heck, he did the same with MK vs Nairo.
It's a good thing we have people like us to politely remind the awestruck and feeble to keep their heads on straight with their hype shenanigans.

@ warionumbah2 he was a Wario main in Brawl.

 

[DunnoBro]

It doesn't matter what Toon Link's frame data says, he is simply not winning a normals war with Link. his range is significantly worse. Link's normals and projectiles all have far greater priority as well. Toon Link's bombs are literally eaten by Link's, and they're like his best asset -- In fact, there aren't many projectiles in this game (other than maybe Thoron) that will actually beat Link's bomb. "Slightly Larger" grab reach is a massive understatement, it's not even a contest, Link can grab you a country over. His Upthrow kills and his downthrow is a combo setup. Most of his aerials are completely safe. An Nair (extremely easy to hit with) that taps you and knocks you down without a tech can be confirmed into an Fsmash kill at close range or a dash attack at long range.

Toon Link is also missing Link's Nair which is easily one of the best in the game and actually safe on block in alot of situations because of its hitbox size. Link can also use his Dair offstange without killing himself, also with excellent priority and hitboxes. Same with UpB, on recovery he can actually trap AND kill opponents trying to edgeguard him. His arrows are much faster and can reach the edge of the map without a fullcharge and without vanishing. Much bigger hitbox on boomberang. ALL of Link's smash attacks will convincingly kill you, and his full combo Fsmash will likely kill you on the edge if you get caught at 50%, probably with minimal charge, and almost certainly with Rage, which isn't hard for him to get being heavy.

Toon Link isn't bad, but objectively better than LINK? Yeah, no. He's probably really aggravating, but even Samus can succeed at being aggravating.

I'd honestly call Link one of the better balanced characters. He has alot of ways to kill you, everyone one of his specials are functional, and he has alot of really slow frame data mixed in with ridiculously safe options with good hitboxes.

It seems like you're comparing link to tink based on how they fare vs each other and other niche situations than how they function in the meta.

The fact tink just does way better vs sheik gives him huge points. He likely does better vs a lot of other top tiers too simply by value of not getting juggled as hard.

Link has a lot going for him too, but mobility is king in this game essentially.

 

[Amadeus9]

It doesn't matter what Toon Link's frame data says, he is simply not winning a normals war with Link. his range is significantly worse. Link's normals and projectiles all have far greater priority as well. Toon Link's bombs are literally eaten by Link's, and they're like his best asset -- In fact, there aren't many projectiles in this game (other than maybe Thoron) that will actually beat Link's bomb. "Slightly Larger" grab reach is a massive understatement, it's not even a contest, Link can grab you a country over. His Upthrow kills and his downthrow is a combo setup. Most of his aerials are completely safe. An Nair (extremely easy to hit with) that taps you and knocks you down without a tech can be confirmed into an Fsmash kill at close range or a dash attack at long range.

Toon Link is also missing Link's Nair which is easily one of the best in the game and actually safe on block in alot of situations because of its hitbox size. Link can also use his Dair offstange without killing himself, also with excellent priority and hitboxes. Same with UpB, on recovery he can actually trap AND kill opponents trying to edgeguard him. His arrows are much faster and can reach the edge of the map without a fullcharge and without vanishing. Much bigger hitbox on boomberang. ALL of Link's smash attacks will convincingly kill you, and his full combo Fsmash will likely kill you on the edge if you get caught at 50%, probably with minimal charge, and almost certainly with Rage, which isn't hard for him to get being heavy.

Toon Link isn't bad, but objectively better than LINK? Yeah, no. He's probably really aggravating, but even Samus can succeed at being aggravating.

I'd honestly call Link one of the better balanced characters. He has alot of ways to kill you, everyone one of his specials are functional, and he has alot of really slow frame data mixed in with ridiculously safe options with good hitboxes.

Why does everything have to be about who out ranges who? If range was the huge factor you're making it out to be, Shulk and Link would be the best characters in the game. Oh wait a second here.

It doesn't matter what Toon Link's frame data says

Link's normals and projectiles all have far greater priority as well

So frame data doesn't matter, and Link possesses more of an attribute than Tink that doesn't even exist?

Look, if you're going to argue something, at least get some facts straight and don't say things like "frame data doesn't matter", because if you do someone's probably going to call you out on it, your opinion will be ignored, and you'll feel sad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rosalina does really meh vs a good chunk of the high+ tiers.

She loses to sheik, pika, zss, mk, falcon, fox, probably Ryu too. This is not the spread of a top 3-5 character in my opinion. Just losing to the super common captain falcon should be a red flag.

Rosalina [or Luma to be 100% precise] is actually Fox' worst matchup.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rosalina [or Luma to be 100% precise] is actually Fox' worst matchup.

Is it due to some jab shenanigans?

I recall dabuz expressing some grief about the MU (though he also remarked about jab being a saving grace)

Regardless, kind of hard to see rosalina as top 5 when the best rep she has is a co-main and bad MUs against a lot of very common tournament characters.

You're trying to use a miniscule sample size like top 8s and 32s to try making the gap between viable casts view melee more favorably due to a smaller cast and the inability to actually have too many different characters in top placings.

Case in point:

but I'm not seeing 20 characters placing in top 16s consistently

 

[ILOVESMASH]

It seems like you're comparing link to tink based on how they fare vs each other and other niche situations than how they function in the meta.

The fact tink just does way better vs sheik gives him huge points. He likely does better vs a lot of other top tiers too simply by value of not getting juggled as hard.

Link has a lot going for him too, but mobility is king in this game essentially.

Wouldn't Tlink's floatiness make him easier to juggle?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jab, offstage stuff and generally being super powerful when in advantaged state + Fox being weak in disadvantaged state adds up. It's manageable for Fox but harder than any of his other matchups. Unlike Sheik and Luigi whom Fox has kinda been going back and forth with I don't think there's an instance of Fox winning vs Rosie recently either.

But I agree that it's kinda hard to see her in top 5.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wouldn't Tlink's floatiness make him easier to juggle?

Disjoints, bombs, and bomb confirms negate the standard weaknesses of a floaty. It's very risky and difficult to stay in a tink's zone to try pressuring his return to neutral unless the character also has disjoints/range.

 

[Rizen]

Wouldn't Tlink's floatiness make him easier to juggle?

No, because TL has much better air speed than Link.
______________________________
Toon Link's frame data isn't much better than Link's when you consider Link's moves linger (Link's attacks end slower but often have 2 or 3 cuts where TL's hit once). Most attacks start the same frame:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
Utilt 8, Fsmash 15, Dsmash 9, grab standing/dash/pivot 12/14/15, Fair 14, Uair 11, air spin attack 8, and their projectiles start the same frame too.

Toon Link has a faster starting: jab and Nair by 1 frame, Zair by 1 frame but it only hits once, faster Dash attack and Ftilt but they're functionally different, DTilt by 2 frames. TL's dodges are slightly faster but Link's have more invulnerability.

Link is faster starting with: Usmash by 2 frames, Bair by 1 frame, Dair by 3 frames, ground spin attack by 3 frames.

TL's fastest ground attack is 1 frame faster than Link's (jab), Link and TL share frame 6 for their fastest aerial (Bair/Nair respectively), and their projectiles start the same times.
_________________________________________________________
Link's Dash Attack would be bad for a character with good mobility but it works as a punishing tool for Link that can kill. It reaches above the lower platforms on BF and can be good for punishing landings. Link's Ftilt is like an alternate Fsmash that can kill.


...With all that said, TL does have significant mobility advantages over Link: better movement speed and faster jump squat. This is where TL pulls ahead. Link is a zoning character who can't successfully zone but TL can. TL's mobility and less end lag make his attacks much safer even though they're about the same frame starting as Link's. Bad mobility also lessens Link's combo game when the opponent DIs away. I agree with what @ DunnoBro said.

Link is worse than TL but not by much.

 

[Antonykun]

Did someone mention Mii Swordfighter?
Why do I see people puting Mii Swordfighter so low in every tier list? And I have never heard "the reason" why he is placed so low. Is he so low 'cause of his height and weight? MM Swordfighter is not as bad as people think. Here is MM Swordfighter's data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Mii Swordfighter
Not bad, eh?

Well is it his specials? 1111 is okish. Gale Strike is one of the best moves he has along with Counter. His default Up-B is okish recovery move (worse version of Kirby's), but it is great for edgeguarding (dat spike). Airborne Assault is nice recovery move that can also kill... BUT it is laggy, can be punished really hard and puts you into freefall state. So does he suck cause of specials? Nah...

Maybe it has something to do with his normal moves? Dair and Uair are both godlikes (Dair can from time to time hit foe even when foe has his shield on due to high shield damage). He/she/it has ok jab and okish tilts. His D-smash is one of the better ones (near Mario lvl). His U-smash in the other hand has very odd hitbox wich makes it kinda meh as a kill move, but is good anti-air. What about throws? D-throw and U-throw are both combo throws (-> Uair which can kill kinda early). B-throw and F-throw are good ways to get enemy off-stage where you can easily kill them with well placed Fair.

So why is he so low? As far as I know he is average character when it comes to his framedata and theory so placing him in the bottom 10 feels a bit too much. The only reason atm why Mii Swordfighter is that low is lack of players.

Swordfighter has plenty of weaknesses. For one his Mobility is poor, 34/39th worst run speed with a run skid that takes forever, a bellow average air speed with a god awful air acceleration poor frame data with out the insane range/projectiles other swordfighters have to make up. His recovery is terrible/exploitable (Stone Scabbard Airborne Assault). Still I don't think that makes him bottom Ten because he can get HUGE rewards for being in advantage

 

[Rikkhan]

Just want to say that removing Dabuz doesn't make Rosalina irrelevant, like would happen to pikachu, zss or mario if you remove Esam, Nairo and Ally.

EVO
25th falln

CEO
17th falln
25th Neos
25th Xaltis

Smashcon
13th Jester
25th Nabster

Paragon
25. Falln
25. Xaltis

LTC3
7th iiGGy
25th Calm Animal(not sure)

Nebolous Prime
5th Snakeee
17th IronKraken

These results are way better than like half of the top tier characters if you remove their best player. Actually in my tournament data the only characters that average 2 or more players in top 32 are sheik, rosalina and diddy.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Rosalina does really meh vs a good chunk of the high+ tiers.

She loses to sheik, pika, zss, mk, falcon, fox, probably Ryu too. This is not the spread of a top 3-5 character in my opinion. Just losing to the super common captain falcon should be a red flag.

Furthermore remember that Dabuz is a co-rosalina main and uses his olimar a lot. He likely would not be placing as well without olimar so it's even odd to claim he's a good example of her viability.

While I believe pikachu, diddy, and mario likely have a similar amount of bad mus, the fact they fair better vs sheik gives them an edge over rosalina.

Similarly, I can see sonic falling quite low after a while. In japan he's certainly viable, but here where against a knowledgeable opponent you NEED to win game 1 or eventually NEED to beat characters on bf/dreamland/halberd/delfino/etc generally ones really great on those stages just gives sonic a hard to see but irrefutable weakness in a tournament environment.

How exactly is Rosalina losing to some of these characters at the top level? Falcon has no way to get in past luma reliably and gets brutally edgeguarded. It was said why fox loses. MK has a bad approach which is mitigated by his crazy reward if he gets in and his great juggles against her, but it's so hard for him to get to his advantage against Rosalina that is seems closer to even to me, especially when she has no problems killing at all. She has no reason to ever approach Ryu and I don't see him getting close to her unless Rosalina screws up.

Characters who have bad neutrals aren't going to beat her at the top level.

 

[Nate1080]

Ryu kills Luma in 2 hits on average, especially in rage, so getting close to Rosa isn't a problem.

Fair [+fair]
Hard neutral A
Light neutral A jab string
[Light up tilt +] Hard up tilt
Dash Attack
Up/F Smash
Shoryuken
Tatsu
Focus

These are all attacks that kill Luma. With the exception of the last 3, they're all low commitment attacks too. Also, he's fast enough to chase her too if need be.

 

[DunnoBro]

How exactly is Rosalina losing to some of these characters at the top level? Falcon has no way to get in past luma reliably and gets brutally edgeguarded. It was said why fox loses. MK has a bad approach which is mitigated by his crazy reward if he gets in and his great juggles against her, but it's so hard for him to get to his advantage against Rosalina that is seems closer to even to me, especially when she has no problems killing at all. She has no reason to ever approach Ryu and I don't see him getting close to her unless Rosalina screws up.

Characters who have bad neutrals aren't going to beat her at the top level.

Ryu was just theory due to the fact generally characters without a need to constantly go for dash grabs and good, safe ways to kill luma do well vs Rosa.

With how many safe, strong moves Ryu has I wouldn't be surprised if he has a safe, easy way to kill luma. But like i said, just theory.

Characters who have bad neutrals aren't going to beat her at the top level.

The characters that do well vs her do so much they negate her neutral and leads. Generally via easily and safely killing luma.

Falcon jab and bair kills luma, dash attack too. Also, the slide from his dash grab negates the normal combo stuffing luma does, and he juggles rosa HARD. There's a reason dabuz goes olimar vs fatality.

Similarly with MK. His dash attack safely kills luma and sets up on rosalina who is very susceptible to his combos/edgeguards.

 

[LightLV]

Why does everything have to be about who out ranges who? If range was the huge factor you're making it out to be, Shulk and Link would be the best characters in the game. Oh wait a second here.

...its as much about frame data as it is about range. They're both ambiguous statements and don't really mean much taken at face value.

So frame data doesn't matter, and Link possess more of an attribute than Tink that doesn't even exist?

"An attribute that doesn't exist"....? I assume you mean priority. Again, i forgot i'm posting on Smash forums...

It seems like you're comparing link to tink based on how they fare vs each other and other niche situations than how they function in the meta.

The fact tink just does way better vs sheik gives him huge points. He likely does better vs a lot of other top tiers too simply by value of not getting juggled as hard.

Link has a lot going for him too, but mobility is king in this game essentially.

I'm aware. The person I quoted seemed to have the idea that Toon Link's tier spot has to do with his attack frames instead of his other attributes. I was just pointing out that no, his attacks themselves don't really have much to do with why he's considered better, at least not in comparison to Link.

As for Link vs. Toon Link....i really don't know any real advantage toon link would have in that matchup. Every trade is unfavorable for toon link. The way people talk about Link (calling him "slow" or "laggy") seem to suggest they've probably never fought a decent one. The last adjective i'd use to describe Link is "laggy".

 

[Amadeus9]

"An attribute that doesn't exist"....? I assume you mean priority. Again, i forgot i'm posting on Smash forums...

Priority doesn't exist. It isn't a thing. Stop acting like it is because you are wrong. Ground moves clink, aerials trade. The only things that matter with regards to disobeying these rules are transcendence, invulnerability, super armor, and if an attack deals 9% more damage than another one.

EDIT:
Also, there's nothing "ambiguous" about frame data. It's about as objective and straightforward as it gets, actually.

 

[LancerStaff]

Priority doesn't exist. It isn't a thing. Stop acting like it is because you are wrong. Ground moves clink, aerials trade. The only things that matter are transcendence, invulnerability, super armor, and if an attack deals 9% more damage than another one.

And trample, don't forget that. I don't entirely understand it myself, but I know Mac's jab and DK's Fsmash have it. ESAM's video talked about it in the end.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is precisely what I'm talking about with confirmation bias.

People WANT to see Ryu being top tier, so when they see Paragon they go "wow! A Ryu was seen at 9th, 7th and 5th place at a national, top tier threat"

When in reality, what happened was a Sheik main used Ryu in a losing set, a Sonic main used Ryu in a in a ditto and only one actual Ryu main placed 9th.

Nothing matters except Trelas performance and we all know he is capable of doing the same feat with Mii Swordfighter, so what does it prove? Literally only one data set to work off, on the back of a player who is famous for doing the same thing with mid/low tier characters. Ultimately Trela is the outlier, since he is the only one who actually won sets with Ryu.

I do think Ryu is a good character and I have seen what 6wx, mr.r and trela do to people with Ryu in their locals. But when the big $ are on the line, only one of them actually stuck to using him, the rest only pulled him out as a last resort (and in mr.r's case, lost).

I hardly call a single ryu main placing 9th and example of 'blowing up' at a single tournament. Peach did that more than Ryu did.

How many of them is a dedicated Ryu main?

Thing is, Ryu is not a secondary character. He doesnt function that way. There is far too much nuance to his neutral and his gameplay. Now you can back Ryu up with a secondary but thats something else entirely.

Also I'm just playing devils advocate. Sheik, ZSS and Diddy Kong are the only 3 chars that really matter imo.

Everything else is so much fluff.

 

[HFlash]

Lol, did a Duck Hunt just take a game off Mr. R's Sheik

YES! But then in game 3..... Mr. R needle camped DHD, got a stock lead, and that's all folks. Shiek being able to outcamp a character whose whole kit is based on camping and zoning is so... wrong.

...its as much about frame data as it is about range. They're both ambiguous statements and don't really mean much taken at face value.

"An attribute that doesn't exist"....? I assume you mean priority. Again, i forgot i'm posting on Smash forums...

I'm aware. The person I quoted seemed to have the idea that Toon Link's tier spot has to do with his attack frames instead of his other attributes. I was just pointing out that no, his attacks themselves don't really have much to do with why he's considered better, at least not in comparison to Link.

Frame data is in fact not ambigous. It's actually the opposite. It's factual information which objectively tells you how quick a move is, how much start up and end lag is has, and so on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCLnC-ejPQ Hopefully this will clarify your misinformation about priority.
(Before debating in Smashboards, you may want to look up info before automatically assuming the other person is wrong)

If I am the aforementioned person, no, Tink's normals isn't the main reason why he is better than Link, but it is a reason why. The TLDR explanation is that Link has a number of kill moves over Tink, but that doesn't really help. Having more quick moves to help combat other characters with great frame data is far more important than having several, moves i.e why prefer Link's ftilt and dash attack when both characters have a strong horizontal kill move with fsmash (which TL btw has a MUCH greater BKB with 130, holy hell that's high)
Furthermore, saying Link has better specials is just wrong. Tink's boomerang has a hitbox coming back which you have to respect at all times while it is out and is much better than the wind effect Link has which brings the enemy closer to him. Generally as a zoning character, you want the opponent far as possible. Point to Tink. Additionally, you have Tink's lingering hit box with his arrow that Link doesn't have. Another point to Tink. Then obviously, Tink's bombs lead to kill confirms while Link's doesn't. Many points to Tink. Finally, Tink's recovery has greater reach. Another point to Tink.

As a side point, you forget to mention when talking about the superior Link has over Toon Link is that Link's hurtbox is also much bigger than Tink's. You have to have a longer arm if you are going to be swinging a bigger sword.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, Tink is objectively better than Link, and will most likely always be the case barring significant buffs/nerfs to the characters. When a Link almost takes a set over, arguably the best Shiek in the world, then we can start talking again.

Edit: Fixed some formatting and grammatical errors.

 

[DanGR]

Falcon has no way to get in past luma reliably and gets brutally edgeguarded.

Fantastic zone-breaker with no ways to break zones. Have you... ever seen Falcon's dash grab?

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is how CF fights Rosalina.

Empty jump, empty jump, fox trot, roll, empty jump, stand there, empty jump

........

DASH GRAB TO D-THROW

"MvC announcer voice"

LET'S GET CRAZY!!!!

 

[DunnoBro]

Shiek being able to outcamp a character whose whole kit is based on camping and zoning is so... wrong.

She can't do that to DHD with customs on

 

[HFlash]

She can't do that to DHD with customs on

Too bad it looks like after one national with customs on, Customs aren't coming back

 

[Yikarur]

If someone speaks of Priority they obvious mean Hitbox:Hurtbox Ratio, Range, disjointness etc.
So stop calling people out if they use the word priority. It's perfectly reasonable to use that term. It works basically exactly the same in most other fighting games as well.

 

[Dabuz]

About the tyrant vs dabux thing that was touched upon a few pages ago, dabuz labbed the **** out of the MU he knew metaknight was a threat and worked hard. Tyrant didn't practice the MU probably thought "lol I got this its only rosalina". Then he loses. Even if you do well against a top tier you still gotta lab it up, they're top tier for a reason. He's much yet to learn.

I was actually losing to Tyrant really badly in friendlies...then I saw Falln play him and play the MU completely differently than how I do, so I copied Falln's style completely and Tyrant wasn't ready for it at all once we ended up playing in tourney, go figure.

 

[outfoxd]

YES! But then in game 3..... Mr. R needle camped DHD, got a stock lead, and that's all folks. Shiek being able to outcamp a character whose whole kit is based on camping and zoning is so... wrong.



Frame data is in fact not ambigous. It's actually the opposite. It's factual information which objectively tells you how quick a move is, how much start up and end lag is has, and so on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCLnC-ejPQ Hopefully this will clarify your misinformation about priority.
(Before debating in Smashboards, you may want to look up info before automatically assuming the other person is wrong)

If I am the aforementioned person, no, Tink's normals isn't the main reason why he is better than Link, but it is a reason why. The TLDR explanation is that Link has a number of kill moves over Tink, but that doesn't really help. Having more quick moves to help combat other characters with great frame data is far more important than having several, moves i.e why prefer Link's ftilt and dash attack when both characters have a strong horizontal kill move with fsmash (which TL btw has a MUCH greater BKB with 130, holy hell that's high)
Furthermore, saying Link has better specials is just wrong. Tink's boomerang has a hitbox coming back which you have to respect at all times while it is out and is much better than the wind effect Link has which brings the enemy closer to him. Generally as a zoning character, you want the opponent far as possible. Point to Tink. Additionally, you have Tink's lingering hit box with his arrow that Link doesn't have. Another point to Tink. Then obviously, Tink's bombs lead to kill confirms while Link's doesn't. Many points to Tink. Finally, Tink's recovery has greater reach. Another point to Tink.

As a side point, you forget to mention when talking about the superior Link has over Toon Link is that Link's hurtbox is also much bigger than Tink's. You have to have a longer arm if you are going to be swinging a bigger sword.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, Tink is objectively better than Link, and will most likely always be the case barring significant buffs/nerfs to the characters. When a Link almost takes a set over, arguably the best Shiek in the world, then we can start talking again.

Edit: Fixed some formatting and grammatical errors.

I can't help but feel like a can full of semtex and five guys with guns should be scary, but lo, here we have Duck Hunt.