Yeah, I noticed I have the most trouble with Diddy's banana game more so than the aggressiveness over all. Neutral game in Diddy's favor, I think. G&W is too slow to be weaving in and out of bananas and peanuts, so it's about patience and timing.
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Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread
- Thread starter Juushichi
- Start date
dettadeus
Smash Lord
In Brawl the general thing to do with almost any character was immediately throw the bananas offstage rather than back at Diddy, although that was only because Diddy players are expected to know how to abuse bananas and deal with them better than any other players. It forces the Diddy player to spawn another banana, which can waste a bit of their time compared to just grabbing a banana you threw back at them or left on the ground.
I personally use bananas rather than throwing them off since I have great item control though.
I personally use bananas rather than throwing them off since I have great item control though.
Oracle
Smash Master
glide toss
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
There's not really an "end all" for dealin with Diddy Kong bananas. Some Diddy players are smart (dunno of a number, don't assume there to be many though) with their bananas so certain things might not necessarily work. Personally, I don't like glide-tossing on the ground because Game and Watch is stuck in that stupid animation for like five seconds after he throws the damn thing and because he's on the ground vs Diddy, lol.
I probably mostly z-drop or AGT when it comes to getting a banana out of my hand because I don't really feel it to be fruitful to be on the ground much vs Diddy Kong. No matter if you tech immediately or not, you're still dealing with GnW's abysmal tech rolls. It didn't work in Brawl and doesn't work now, lol. Try to platform camp as much as you can.
On another note, I have some videos from last weekend's PM tournament. I'll try to get everything ready today.
I probably mostly z-drop or AGT when it comes to getting a banana out of my hand because I don't really feel it to be fruitful to be on the ground much vs Diddy Kong. No matter if you tech immediately or not, you're still dealing with GnW's abysmal tech rolls. It didn't work in Brawl and doesn't work now, lol. Try to platform camp as much as you can.
On another note, I have some videos from last weekend's PM tournament. I'll try to get everything ready today.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Throwing banana's off the stage is a terrible strategy. You give away any advantage it afforded you as well as allowing Diddy to get a fresh banana. If you suspect that the Diddy is waiting for you to throw it the banana so he can just grab it back then clearly you should use that against him. At the very least you should Up-Throw the banana to keep it alive for as long as possible, forcing Diddy to play with just one banana.
Unfortunately G&W is not the best at abusing items. Like Juu said his item throw animations are hella long and on top of that G&W becomes pretty linear when he's forced to waste some of his precious air time deciding when to throw a banana. But there are still some neat tricks like full hop>z-drop>ff>fair covers quite a few options.
Unfortunately G&W is not the best at abusing items. Like Juu said his item throw animations are hella long and on top of that G&W becomes pretty linear when he's forced to waste some of his precious air time deciding when to throw a banana. But there are still some neat tricks like full hop>z-drop>ff>fair covers quite a few options.
Oracle
Smash Master
but his glide toss is amazing just use that
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Correction: his glide toss LOOKS amazing. In reality G&W slides really far and then stands perfectly still for a good 10-15 frames. He can't do anything while gliding and doesn't keep any of the momentum afterward. Gone are the days of D-Smash on ice.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
It's probably not a bad OoS option either, but compared to UpB it's pretty lackluster.
Dubforce
Smash Sidius
Hey guys. Where do you think Gdubs lies on the theoretical tier list?
Oracle
Smash Master
Glide toss gives him a huge mobility boost which makes it easier to deal with camping. You can punish stuff from full screen with a glide toss
SH Banana Throw > Judgement 9
Don't pass up free projectiles.
More importantly...
Don't get hit.
All G&W issues come from getting hit. Don't do that, and you're set for life.
How do you HIT people if all you're trying to do is NOT get hit yourself? That's where watching comes in. Dodge the Banana, but pay attention to how/when/where/why Diddy chucks them.
Once you're fluent with THAT side of the game, you'll compete with the 'best in the world' every day, no problem.
The rest is redundant stepping stones. (ie. How to use Banana's, how to puncture holes in game-play, etc, that's all universal)
Don't look at the Glide-Toss...
When is the opponent Glide-Tossing?
By the end of the match, you should be Judgementing him in the face 100% of the time he tries Glide-Tossing a Banana, and that goes for 100% of the things in this game.
9
Don't pass up free projectiles.
More importantly...
Don't get hit.
All G&W issues come from getting hit. Don't do that, and you're set for life.
How do you HIT people if all you're trying to do is NOT get hit yourself? That's where watching comes in. Dodge the Banana, but pay attention to how/when/where/why Diddy chucks them.
Once you're fluent with THAT side of the game, you'll compete with the 'best in the world' every day, no problem.
The rest is redundant stepping stones. (ie. How to use Banana's, how to puncture holes in game-play, etc, that's all universal)
Don't look at the Glide-Toss...
When is the opponent Glide-Tossing?
By the end of the match, you should be Judgementing him in the face 100% of the time he tries Glide-Tossing a Banana, and that goes for 100% of the things in this game.
9
Isn't getting hit every characters issue? 
Also, you don't do Judgement 9 on command. It's risky, and medium reward most of the time. If you could predict it, G&W would be top tier, not bottom of the barrel with the scraps tier.
Control at least one banana if possible, that halves Diddy's projectiles and gives you more opportunities to open him up. It also causes them to trip, and when they miss the tech you could D-air to set up for the U-smash/Grab/N-air, or just D-tilt like mad. G&W doesn't have a lot of tools as a character to deal with projectiles that aren't energy (Turnips, Banana's etc), and he quickly gets out classed against someone with good item control. His high move commitment and weird frame times can make it difficult to do anything against projectiles. He can't just swat things away with F-air with too much success.
It's a tough MU in my opinion, but more than doable. 40/60 in Diddy's favor.
Also, you don't do Judgement 9 on command. It's risky, and medium reward most of the time. If you could predict it, G&W would be top tier, not bottom of the barrel with the scraps tier.
Control at least one banana if possible, that halves Diddy's projectiles and gives you more opportunities to open him up. It also causes them to trip, and when they miss the tech you could D-air to set up for the U-smash/Grab/N-air, or just D-tilt like mad. G&W doesn't have a lot of tools as a character to deal with projectiles that aren't energy (Turnips, Banana's etc), and he quickly gets out classed against someone with good item control. His high move commitment and weird frame times can make it difficult to do anything against projectiles. He can't just swat things away with F-air with too much success.
It's a tough MU in my opinion, but more than doable. 40/60 in Diddy's favor.
Peach doesn't care about getting hit.
Bowser wins trades and doesn't afraid of anything.
Snake doesn't can live off baits that rely on opponent actions to work.
Every character has some kind of primary issue(s), for G&W, all his primary issues come into play when he's actually physically hit. Not when he's in threat of being hit, not when he's in a neutral game, in the air, on the ground, anywhere. It's following the instances of actual connected hits against him. Getting out of pressure, repositioning effectively, recovering.
If you avoid everything, whether it's positioning (spacing/he has an advantage here), shielding (he can deal with that), or whatever that is NOT connecting on his face, he's 100% fine and under almost all circumstances he's better off than most of the cast in similar situations.
Get hit though, and he can't deal with trades, or even capitalize on 'good' trades, or force connected hits of his own, or passively camp to gain a lead.
Keep him neutral, and G&W will be at an advantage against almost anyone else. This makes OTHERS have to make the move to hit HIM. Don't get hit, and you win. Others don't get hit, they'll lose. Vague, but that hopefully makes a bit of sense of it.
It's like a Fox. Get hit, he dead. Neutral game, he's at the advantage. Same deal, different tricks.
He's a glass canon, Banana > 9 is a hyperbole. He's still a canon, Banana provides a free shot. Never pass that up.
Diddy needs Banana's to function optimally by giving him lots of his 'weak' stuff for free. G&W doesn't need them to function optimally, but they give him a lot of ease in doing what he does best. Make is 'strong' stuff FREE.
Diddy is beast...
G&W is beast too...
50/50
Either you win, or you don't.
Just like anything.
What are the chances of winning the lottery?
50/50
Either you win, or you don't...
That's how it works, right?
Edit:
Don't go for things you don't have to go for.
What to do in the meantime?
Don't get hit.
G&W can do that, so do that.
If you do that, everything else is easy, and I would suggest never worrying about getting hits in, that's a by-product.
Bowser wins trades and doesn't afraid of anything.
Snake doesn't can live off baits that rely on opponent actions to work.
Every character has some kind of primary issue(s), for G&W, all his primary issues come into play when he's actually physically hit. Not when he's in threat of being hit, not when he's in a neutral game, in the air, on the ground, anywhere. It's following the instances of actual connected hits against him. Getting out of pressure, repositioning effectively, recovering.
If you avoid everything, whether it's positioning (spacing/he has an advantage here), shielding (he can deal with that), or whatever that is NOT connecting on his face, he's 100% fine and under almost all circumstances he's better off than most of the cast in similar situations.
Get hit though, and he can't deal with trades, or even capitalize on 'good' trades, or force connected hits of his own, or passively camp to gain a lead.
Keep him neutral, and G&W will be at an advantage against almost anyone else. This makes OTHERS have to make the move to hit HIM. Don't get hit, and you win. Others don't get hit, they'll lose. Vague, but that hopefully makes a bit of sense of it.
It's like a Fox. Get hit, he dead. Neutral game, he's at the advantage. Same deal, different tricks.
He's a glass canon, Banana > 9 is a hyperbole. He's still a canon, Banana provides a free shot. Never pass that up.
Diddy needs Banana's to function optimally by giving him lots of his 'weak' stuff for free. G&W doesn't need them to function optimally, but they give him a lot of ease in doing what he does best. Make is 'strong' stuff FREE.
Diddy is beast...
G&W is beast too...
50/50
Either you win, or you don't.
Just like anything.
What are the chances of winning the lottery?
50/50
Either you win, or you don't...
That's how it works, right?
Edit:
Patience applied means what?
Don't go for things you don't have to go for.
What to do in the meantime?
Don't get hit.
G&W can do that, so do that.
If you do that, everything else is easy, and I would suggest never worrying about getting hits in, that's a by-product.
It's easier towards helping you win matches, than it is trying to force a hit on a faster, more agile, projectile tossing opponent.
Not easy to do in terms of 'doing it all day' since they'll be good at attempting to hit you, whether it's their tools or misuse of yours.
It's easier to do in terms of 'getting a victory' since it's the course of action that makes it most difficult for them to get that victory.
Not easier to do than trying to attack them when you get chances to, simply easier to win with it instead of doing that.
Not easy to do in terms of 'doing it all day' since they'll be good at attempting to hit you, whether it's their tools or misuse of yours.
It's easier to do in terms of 'getting a victory' since it's the course of action that makes it most difficult for them to get that victory.
Not easier to do than trying to attack them when you get chances to, simply easier to win with it instead of doing that.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Yeah, this is kinda of the methodology that I've taken when playing GnW. I've gone away from forcing hits to securing situations where I could have them come to me through good movement and because GnW has pretty straightforward tools this is good. Unfortunately, it is also because of this that sometimes GnW is pretty... two-dimensional, no pun intended. Once someone figures out how GnW generally has to do things, it's a lot harder to facilitate your offense, even through good defense.
I started working on my movement over the stretch of time from Outrage 1 to Outrage 2 but I think I now might have to work back on my spacing in terms of avoiding tight defensive punishes (insert good character Up-B OoS, Shine OoS, etc) and figuring out any frame traps our character might have once we get in. That and getting out of poor defensive situations better.
I started working on my movement over the stretch of time from Outrage 1 to Outrage 2 but I think I now might have to work back on my spacing in terms of avoiding tight defensive punishes (insert good character Up-B OoS, Shine OoS, etc) and figuring out any frame traps our character might have once we get in. That and getting out of poor defensive situations better.
"it's a lot harder to facilitate your offense, even through good defense."
"avoiding tight defensive punishes (insert good character Up-B OoS, Shine OoS, etc) and figuring out any frame traps our character might have once we get in."
I would say 'not' facilitating offense is perfectly fine if your defense is solid. If you're not losing the game (good defense) then there's 1 alternative really. hehe
Tight defensive punishes shouldn't be an issue, as being overly offensive is 'not' priority. As you said though, 'not' putting yourself in those situations (avoiding those) is where G&W can succeed np np.
Stuff will come, G&W will 'get in' as much as he needs to. He doesn't thrive at establishing offense, but he can establish a presence enough that if the opponent doesn't do SOMETHING, G&W will take over.
Up-B > Bair chains are the funniest looking thing. It looks so nonthreatening when it's happening, yet essentially ends in taking the stock nearly every time. This character is solid.
"avoiding tight defensive punishes (insert good character Up-B OoS, Shine OoS, etc) and figuring out any frame traps our character might have once we get in."
I would say 'not' facilitating offense is perfectly fine if your defense is solid. If you're not losing the game (good defense) then there's 1 alternative really. hehe
Tight defensive punishes shouldn't be an issue, as being overly offensive is 'not' priority. As you said though, 'not' putting yourself in those situations (avoiding those) is where G&W can succeed np np.
Stuff will come, G&W will 'get in' as much as he needs to. He doesn't thrive at establishing offense, but he can establish a presence enough that if the opponent doesn't do SOMETHING, G&W will take over.
Up-B > Bair chains are the funniest looking thing. It looks so nonthreatening when it's happening, yet essentially ends in taking the stock nearly every time. This character is solid.
Hey guys; I started with Mario/Wario and PM, but found my enjoyment in them waning while I'm loving GW more and more. I don't really enter AZ tournies but I am mostly devastating everybody I play in friendlies. I'm working on convincing people that Game and Watch is actually an amazing character, simply because I really enjoyed playing him in Melee and now that he has a lot more versatility and a more useful Judgement, his options and power have expended exponentially.
Am I missing something with regards to his power? The people I'm 3 stocking are convinced that he's terrible. One guy told me specifically he would "argue up and down that GaW is terrible" but right now I'm not seeing it.
Am I missing something with regards to his power? The people I'm 3 stocking are convinced that he's terrible. One guy told me specifically he would "argue up and down that GaW is terrible" but right now I'm not seeing it.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
It really confuses me when people get wrecked by a character and proceed to call them terrible.
G&W is just secretly really good and nobody wants to admit it.
G&W is just secretly really good and nobody wants to admit it.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
No, I don't think you're missing anything. I think all of GnW's tools are there, Wobbles. Some of them might need to be improved upon, but this character feels really solid to me.
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
i think most of the idea that gnw is terrible comes from the fact that he's game and watch
im certain thats it, im usually joking when i say hes bad, but come on
hes ****ing game & watch, who gives a **** about game&watch anymore lmao
also, wobbles post vids, we want to see some of your gnw dude :D
im certain thats it, im usually joking when i say hes bad, but come on
hes ****ing game & watch, who gives a **** about game&watch anymore lmao
also, wobbles post vids, we want to see some of your gnw dude :D
Oracle
Smash Master
gnw can have trouble with heavy zoning/camping (as well as some dumb matchups like ness) but thats about it, and 99% of the people who tell you 'gnw is bad' don't even know that. People just assume hes terrible because hes not dumb like fox or sonic or what have you. Me and dakpo have been doing really well with gw over here and I don't think we're missing anything major.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
LMAOOO I lost to this. That should be a huge boost to your ego then, because you're 3-stocking people with an awful character according to them.
But nah G&W is good, he's just fair so it's hard to realize his strong points for a lot of people.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
nah, need moar buffs plz
Okay. I was wondering if maybe he had a few awful awful weaknesses that inexperienced players weren't exploiting.
I got used to playing him a bunch in Melee and NEVER EVER BLOCKING, focusing entirely on maneuvering and counter-hitting, and when I abandoned the notion of ever getting to use defensive options, I became a much better GaW. Being able to play around with u-air, b-air, and n-air in the neutral game is phenomenal. I rarely play PM (once every couple weeks on average) but each time I get to mess around with new stuff. I like using reverse shpans to reset optimal spacing with control, and I need to remember the next time I play to disable tap-jump so I can mess around with jumping u-air -> up+b -> double-jump -> stuff. I think his variety and versatility on offense is just crazy fun.
I'll see what I can do about getting a game or two recorded if I can. I have like zero matchup experience against the newer characters though so expect to see me get bodied for a bit while I learn things lol.
I got used to playing him a bunch in Melee and NEVER EVER BLOCKING, focusing entirely on maneuvering and counter-hitting, and when I abandoned the notion of ever getting to use defensive options, I became a much better GaW. Being able to play around with u-air, b-air, and n-air in the neutral game is phenomenal. I rarely play PM (once every couple weeks on average) but each time I get to mess around with new stuff. I like using reverse shpans to reset optimal spacing with control, and I need to remember the next time I play to disable tap-jump so I can mess around with jumping u-air -> up+b -> double-jump -> stuff. I think his variety and versatility on offense is just crazy fun.
I'll see what I can do about getting a game or two recorded if I can. I have like zero matchup experience against the newer characters though so expect to see me get bodied for a bit while I learn things lol.
geno
Smash Apprentice
I need to get the hang of DACUS timing for GW! It's so awesome, but why is he like, the only person who has to DACUS with 'A'? sh double bacon DACUS. dash attack, DACUS opposite direction. Such great combos! But I can only get it like half the time still.
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
A G-Dub's haiku
regarding a fatal flaw:
Death by laggy roll.
Seriously, what's up with that roll. It actually makes me sad.
On the bright side G&W forces me to kill my rolling habit since it's laughably punishable.
Bacon is life.
regarding a fatal flaw:
Death by laggy roll.
Seriously, what's up with that roll. It actually makes me sad.
On the bright side G&W forces me to kill my rolling habit since it's laughably punishable.
Bacon is life.
Oracle
Smash Master
Up b instead of rolling
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Got 4th at a tournament yesterday.
Lost to 1st (Falcon) and 3rd (Wario).
Improved placing again, I guess. More work to do before Nerd Rage. No videos.
Lost to 1st (Falcon) and 3rd (Wario).
Improved placing again, I guess. More work to do before Nerd Rage. No videos.
Oracle
Smash Master
Carls and...? Who was the falcon
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
LOE1, actually. The Falcon was Slayertokey, iirc he's PR'd in MI for Melee. (EDIT) Just checked, he's inactive... but would be ranked if he was active. This as of Feb.
Both losses were, as usual 1-2.
Both losses were, as usual 1-2.
Oracle
Smash Master
Well we have a falcon main here who thinks that matchup is unwinnable for falcon so I guess you just suck .
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Probably.
I didn't come into the competitive scene until Melee wasn't around this side of the MW much (outside of Michigan) so my vs Falcon/Fox/Falco, etc has mostly been me testing stuff out in tournament for the first time and then refining it. I've not been 0-2'd in bracket for this game since like... never? But, not going to say I'm not bad. That's what I keep playing for.
See you at NR, tho. We'll see if I've worked on not sucking by that time.
I didn't come into the competitive scene until Melee wasn't around this side of the MW much (outside of Michigan) so my vs Falcon/Fox/Falco, etc has mostly been me testing stuff out in tournament for the first time and then refining it. I've not been 0-2'd in bracket for this game since like... never? But, not going to say I'm not bad. That's what I keep playing for.
See you at NR, tho. We'll see if I've worked on not sucking by that time.
geno
Smash Apprentice
VS. Falcon, I've always thought was pretty even. Sure G&W can beast it, but like Calvo said, if we mess up, we're screwed. Also, gotta watch for that dreaded Knee of Justice, I'm pretty sure that's how I die every time against falcon players... Usually at really low percents too! Because of that crazy knock back and g&w's lack of horizontal recovery. But, on the other hand, up-throw->hammer.
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
the ****, i have never seen uthrow hammer work ever
i play falcon against my friends gnw, some of the stuff that i know for a fact hella smashes on GNW is uairs and knee
GNW has the projectile, dtilt, chair just devastates falcons recovery, and his heavy weight makes it easy to hit him with uair chains and upB combos
i play falcon against my friends gnw, some of the stuff that i know for a fact hella smashes on GNW is uairs and knee
GNW has the projectile, dtilt, chair just devastates falcons recovery, and his heavy weight makes it easy to hit him with uair chains and upB combos