Unity Ruleset Subdiscussion: Stage legality

[fkacyan]

So... why is increasing variability bad?

Because it makes it harder to determine the better player.

Which is exactly what lowering the skill cap does.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.

 

[John12346]

Oh, and while I'm at it, I may as well mention that both players have an opportunity to change to a better-suited character for the random factored counterpick stages, bringing the random stages even closer to an equal test of skills. So in a 2 out of 3 set, both players gain access to one stage that has random factors that are only slightly in favor of the loser's choice. Oh, and surprise surprise, both players gain access to this measure of selection; balancing out the issue even further.

 

[ErikG]

Before you remove any trace of randomness because it messes with the statistics of skill, have you actually put forth the effort to see the overall statistical effect a stage has?

Let the null hypothesis be that randomness has no effect on results. If it is statistically proven false, then we can reject the null and potentially ban it, or at least get someone to support you.

That helps the randomness case a lot more. Something like Pictochat will most likely get the ax, but something as minute as Smashville won't.

 

[fkacyan]

Before you remove any trace of randomness because it messes with the statistics of skill, have you actually put forth the effort to see the overall statistical effect a stage has?

Let the null hypothesis be that randomness has no effect on results. If it is statistically proven false, then we can reject the null and potentially ban it, or at least get someone to support you.

That helps the randomness case a lot more. Something like Pictochat will most likely get the ax, but something as minute as Smashville won't.

How do you quantify "results"?

Are we talking percents? Stocks? Overall result of the match?

Sometimes the effect can have no obvious visual effect but for the players allows a reset of their psychological state. Sometimes its as drastic as Picto taking your stock.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Guys, lets move onto something else. Everyone is just repeating their points at the moment, and this discussion doesn't have anything to do with the Unity ruleset.

Thio, continue your argument in Philosophical Discussion if you aren't satisfied with your responses so far.

 

[Timic83]

alright grim

as zss if you spawn on the right platform of brinstar two armor pieces fall... should a zss be able to restart for a better spawn, or be forced to play with one of her biggest options (attacking w/ armor) severely crippled?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If it bothers the ZSS player, they should have banned Brinstar.

We can't add a rule for every single random event or our rule-set will quickly be clogged up.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You can prove that 100% of the time that the random element has absolutely no effect on results?

***** please.

John#s: Nothing you or BPC is addressing the main point. You're trying to assess the degree to which, which is already past the point where it is, which is what I'm addressing.

You want to address degree to which, though? Fine, let's play ball.

Metaknight: Dtilt's 1/3 chance can mean the difference between getting punished on hit by a savvy snake and getting a grab and setting up a juggle, which could easily be most of a stock in some matchups.

Snake: Ftilt's trip chance can very easily decided whether you get hit by Ftilt 2 at 100% and live, or if you get hit by Utilt and die... or a grab, and get tech chased for 40%... or just another full jab->ftilt.

ICs: the decisions made (randomly!) by the Nana AI when the ICs are separated can easily make a huge difference in the further progression of the game-you can either get her quickly back because she dodged that attack and knew what she was doing for a moment, or you can essentially all but lose your stock because nana was a douche and ran right in to that fsmash without blocking.

Olimar: (how did I forget this one) the number of Purples you pluck is a big deal in several matchups. For example vs. MK; each pluck gives you a random chance of either one pikmin that MK can deal with, or one pikmin that MK can't. Even excluding purples, it still makes a large difference which pikmin you draw. Only draw blues? Sucks for your air game and smashes. Only draw reds? Shame for your throws....

I could keep going, but that's rather pointless. It's not really that difficult to point out where randomness is and why it's bad and why in most cases it certainly affects at least 5% of cases. Not that this is particularly easy to prove, as skill is extremely difficult to quantify even in the best of environments using a highly unbalanced cast. No reason to make it even harder with random bull****, though.

@Shadowlink: You're going to say there wouldn't be a drastic difference in results if I could, say, pull a Gordo every time?

You seem to be ignoring my point.

And yeah, I think we're done here. Most people understand that cutting the number of matchups available in a game down to 1/5th of its original number is a bad thing, and recognize that putting up with a little bit of randomness in order to not do so is all right. You do not, and I think we're done with this discussion.

EDIT: Oh wait I forgot. I just noticed something... See how you keep on saying "oh look stage control blah blah blah". MAYBE YOU ARE OVERRATING HOW IMPORTANT STAGE CONTROL IS IN THIS GAME. Stages that randomly reset it are also legitimate. You know why? Because they inherently do their part to offer an advantage to characters who are good at establishing stage control and bad at keeping it. You are overvaluing part of Brawl's skillset, want to remove massive amounts of matchups from the game, and... Yeah, aren't willing to put up with remotely random effects. **** off.





Which regions had Japes legal before the unity ruleset? Nova Scotia, parts of the midwest, Texas? I need to know who I need to talk to for feedback on that stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Btw Falco's down-b has a chance to trip
And if it doesn't trip it can be punished on hit iirc
So it's pretty important.

Also Kirby losing his copy ability is random, Captain Falcon's fair can trip, Mario's d-tilt can trip iirc, drawing or losing from ganoncide is random....almost every character has at least a small random aspect, so if you want to eliminate all randomness then I don't think Brawl is even playable lol.

And through hacking you can't eliminate the random chance of moves like MK's d-tilt tripping, due to it being based on the angle of the move and not being a property of the move. (since that was brought up before for some reason I thought I'd mention it)

Edit:

Marth is the only character that doesn't seem to have any moves with random effects. (tripping or otherwise)

So basically if we want to remove all randomness the game becomes Marth only Battlefield and FD only with no running.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ghostbone, you're confusing angle 361 (trips if you're on the ground) with random trip chances (trips 1/x times if you're on the ground when it ends). MK's is the latter.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just thought I should link to this for closure: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302161

 

[fkacyan]

You seem to be ignoring my point.

And yeah, I think we're done here. Most people understand that cutting the number of matchups available in a game down to 1/5th of its original number is a bad thing, and recognize that putting up with a little bit of randomness in order to not do so is all right. You do not, and I think we're done with this discussion.

EDIT: Oh wait I forgot. I just noticed something... See how you keep on saying "oh look stage control blah blah blah". MAYBE YOU ARE OVERRATING HOW IMPORTANT STAGE CONTROL IS IN THIS GAME. Stages that randomly reset it are also legitimate. You know why? Because they inherently do their part to offer an advantage to characters who are good at establishing stage control and bad at keeping it. You are overvaluing part of Brawl's skillset, want to remove massive amounts of matchups from the game, and... Yeah, aren't willing to put up with remotely random effects. **** off.

Which regions had Japes legal before the unity ruleset? Nova Scotia, parts of the midwest, Texas? I need to know who I need to talk to for feedback on that stage.

Bringing up Nova Scotia in any discussion about legality is hilarious.

The region banned Meta Knight, for crying out loud.

I don't think I've ever actually advocated removing anything, actually, by the way. I don't think you ever really read any of my posts.

 

[John12346]

So... you were arguing for why stages with random factors are bad for competition and results consistency, yet aren't proposing to remove said stages to help competition and results consistency...

What the heck was the point of all this bickering if nothing was to come of it? -___ -;

 

[fkacyan]

So... you were arguing for why stages with random factors are bad for competition and results consistency, yet aren't proposing to remove said stages to help competition and results consistency...

What the heck was the point of all this bickering if nothing was to come of it? -___ -;

Oh, I certainly advocate the removal of many stages, I'll give you that, but the idea of removing characters is silly

Spoiler

if only because the community would never go for it

.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bringing up Nova Scotia in any discussion about legality is hilarious.

The region banned Meta Knight, for crying out loud.

Uh... What? Look, if a region has a stage legal and has no problems with it, I'm going to turn to them and ask what's going on. I mentioned NS because it was one region that had it legal.

PAGING XYRO TO THE THREAD. WAS JJ LEGAL IN TEXAS?

I don't think I've ever actually advocated removing anything, actually, by the way. I don't think you ever really read any of my posts.

Oh, I certainly advocate the removal of many stages, I'll give you that, but the idea of removing characters is silly

Spoiler

if only because the community would never go for it

.

...Yeah, okay, mixed message here much? You'd ban almost any stage because of (negligable) randomness, but wouldn't ban characters who have game-changingly random effects?

 

[Lord Chair]

Many =/= almost any.

Seriously BPC l2read.

Unity ruleset has 14 stages legal and is one of the most liberal stagelists.

There's 41 stages.

Regardless of how liberal you are, you'll never allow more than 50% of the stages.

Regardless of how liberal you are, you will always ban many stages.

Stop *****ing on Cyanide.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"One of the most liberal"

This is depressing. Anyone remember 16-20 stage lists? Good times...

AGAIN. XYRO UTDZAC ALPHAZEALOT

Anyone who has experience with this ****. TO feedback on stages like this? And no, not from TOs who went "ew this is gay BAN" like Inui or Alex.

 

[fkacyan]

Uh... What? Look, if a region has a stage legal and has no problems with it, I'm going to turn to them and ask what's going on. I mentioned NS because it was one region that had it legal.

PAGING XYRO TO THE THREAD. WAS JJ LEGAL IN TEXAS?





...Yeah, okay, mixed message here much? You'd ban almost any stage because of (negligable) randomness, but wouldn't ban characters who have game-changingly random effects?

How can you say that its negligible? Have you done a study on the effects of the randomness of the stage?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...


Thio, **** off. Prove that the randomness is an issue and banworthy and then I'll get back to you.

 

[Lord Chair]

We banned food because it's random.

 

[fkacyan]

...


Thio, **** off. Prove that the randomness is an issue and banworthy and then I'll get back to you.

This just in:

UNBAN ITEMS.

 

[Raziek]

Bringing up Nova Scotia in any discussion about legality is hilarious.

The region banned Meta Knight, for crying out loud.

I don't think I've ever actually advocated removing anything, actually, by the way. I don't think you ever really read any of my posts.

I'm sick of this. How can you fault me for trying something that OVER HALF THE COMMUNITY WAS IN FAVOR OF?

 

[Pierce7d]

My dear friend Raziek, why are you letting this get to you? Of course, the world would be a better place if I did indeed rule everything, and people were smart enough to realize that my opinion is in fact the only one that truly matters, but since it is an unwieldy expectation, I settle for letting others speak their mind.

However, don't let the trolls and haters get to you. Surely there will be those who hold disdain for that which you represent, but you should remember that it matters very little, if at all, since your ambitions have earned you my own favor, which is far more valuable than anything any of your haters might have to offer.

Don't reduce yourself when you've already earned the treasure of my positive attentions.

 

[Raziek]

My dear friend Raziek, why are you letting this get to you? Of course, the world would be a better place if I did indeed rule everything, and people were smart enough to realize that my opinion is in fact the only one that truly matters, but since it is an unwieldy expectation, I settle for letting others speak their mind.

However, don't let the trolls and haters get to you. Surely there will be those who hold disdain for that which you represent, but you should remember that it matters very little, if at all, since your ambitions have earned you my own favor, which is far more valuable than anything any of your haters might have to offer.

Don't reduce yourself when you've already earned the treasure of my positive attentions.

Thanks Pierce. I thought better of it after letting the heat flow out of my head for a minute, edited the rage out.

*sigh*

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Nova Scotia was the only region with the balls to ban MK.

Other regions are the ones that should be made fun of, for continuing to allow something as ridiculously broken as Metaknight to remain in the metagame, when it is obviously detrimental to the game as a whole.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Argh, the TOs are gone. This is like, well, any other thread about this kind of thing. Reduced to circular arguments, mental masturbation, and with absolutely no ****ing bearing.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Are you surprised? They did edit out the part about taking stuff into consideration in the original thread.

They're just going to do w/e, and if we don't like it that's too bad.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nova Scotia was the only region with the balls to ban MK.

New Mexico ban'd MK. HOBO tournaments had a few MK banned ones.

Nova Scotia is just the most known one for some odd reason.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If more regions banned MK the game would be better off. We wouldn't have the RC/Brinstar dilemma, and I'm sure there are other stages banned solely because MK is far too powerful on them. Skyworld comes to mind.

But then people would be getting infracted for talk of banning MK. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if I get infracted for this and my past couple of posts.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Yeah, Niddo is right, Southwest has banned MK a few times. It was much more diverse, (people mained mid tiers, now that he's legal they don't) but we didn't have any exp against MK and got ***** OoS. So, we unbanned him, to not be a completely worthless region OoS

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, Niddo is right, Southwest has banned MK a few times. It was much more diverse, (people mained mid tiers, now that he's legal they don't) but we didn't have any exp against MK and got ***** OoS. So, we unbanned him, to not be a completely worthless region OoS

This is exactly why I had to go back on the decision, despite how positive the results were.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah, Niddo is right, Southwest has banned MK a few times. It was much more diverse, (people mained mid tiers, now that he's legal they don't) but we didn't have any exp against MK and got ***** OoS. So, we unbanned him, to not be a completely worthless region OoS

Exactly. It either has to be a largely, geographically isolated area (like NS or Hawaii), or a huge section (Like say, all of the southern states) for it to be worth it. Otherwise, people complain about OoS tournaments and TOs get pressured into going back to the norm.

Which is frankly, kinda silly, because then only isolated areas like NS are willing to experiment, but they don't have the out of area experience/people from the outside coming to play to prove that what ever they try could be a good thing on a larger scale. Catch-22.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Please move the MK discussion to this thread. Let's get this one back on topic.

 

[fkacyan]

My dear friend Raziek, why are you letting this get to you? Of course, the world would be a better place if I did indeed rule everything, and people were smart enough to realize that my opinion is in fact the only one that truly matters, but since it is an unwieldy expectation, I settle for letting others speak their mind.

However, don't let the trolls and haters get to you. Surely there will be those who hold disdain for that which you represent, but you should remember that it matters very little, if at all, since your ambitions have earned you my own favor, which is far more valuable than anything any of your haters might have to offer.

Don't reduce yourself when you've already earned the treasure of my positive attentions.

You sound like a bizarre hybrid of Diem and Inui.

 

[Nanaki]

My dear friend Raziek, why are you letting this get to you? Of course, the world would be a better place if I did indeed rule everything, and people were smart enough to realize that my opinion is in fact the only one that truly matters, but since it is an unwieldy expectation, I settle for letting others speak their mind.

However, don't let the trolls and haters get to you. Surely there will be those who hold disdain for that which you represent, but you should remember that it matters very little, if at all, since your ambitions have earned you my own favor, which is far more valuable than anything any of your haters might have to offer.

Don't reduce yourself when you've already earned the treasure of my positive attentions.

I lol'd so hard.

For legality, is Luigi's Mansion pretty universally considered horrible these days? I used to remember quite a few people loving the stage.

 

[cHp]

Luigi's Mansion is pretty borderline. Destroying the mansion helps deal with the cave of life + circle camping + snake/mk/other characters abusing the stage. In my opinion Luigi's Mansion's breakability (lol) can increase strategy. Against said characters, by destroying all of the mansion except for one/two pieces and defending it, you can generate a Defend Your Castle-esque styled gameplay.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nothing was ever proven wrong with Mansion, so I can't see any reason to ban it.

 

[Ghostbone]

People mentioned that we banned items so I just wanted to point out that we don't.

lol

Turning off doesn't mean banning >.>
Or are you going to DQ Diddy/Peach/G&W etc. players if they spawn an item?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Saying that we ban items is like saying that we ban Home-Run Contest.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nothing was ever proven wrong with Mansion, so I can't see any reason to ban it.

Yes there was.

Circle camping until your opponent has to break the stage, if you didn't want that, you could always camp inside the house to live in the cave of life it offers.

People mentioned that we banned items so I just wanted to point out that we don't.

lol

Turning off doesn't mean banning >.>
Or are you going to DQ Diddy/Peach/G&W etc. players if they spawn an item?

Your trying to argue semantics, don't.

Removing them is essentially banning them because ones characters spawn are controlled by that character and not randomly spawning at locations.

How items operate from the game spawning them and characters doing it is very very different.