Unity Ruleset Subdiscussion: Stage legality

[Budget Player Cadet_]

His idea that he's right is wrong. :V

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, that idea is wrong.

 

[Lord Chair]

Randomness cannot be prevented, but there's no reason to limit it as far as is practically and realistically possible.

You can't just state that because randomness is inevitable, you can allow it to every possible extent. That argument has been made for (RPG and MOBA elements) dodge, crit and procs and it has proved itself uncompetitive over and over again. Same thing counts for random stage elements and yes also for spawn locations.

Sure, there's no way to balance stage spawns on asymmetrical stages, but what does that have to do with things we can balance?

As we say in the Netherlands, don't compare apples to pears: they're two different things regardless of similarities.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Kind-of off-topic, but you realize what a comparison is, right?

If I compared apples to pears, I wouldn't be saying they are the same thing, I would be saying they have similarities.

So... people from the Netherlands are crazy, lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Randomness cannot be prevented, but there's no reason to limit it as far as is practically and realistically possible.

I'm assuming you mean not to limit it. But... let me point out the roster with this idea:

Meta Knight (Dtilt has a random chance of tripping, and it makes a fairly large difference-between "barely not being punished on hit" and "grab combo")
Snake (Ftilt trip chance can mean the difference between taking a stale ftilt and dying to an utilt; usmash random trajectory)
Diddy Kong, Falco,
Wario (Bike Tires fly out in random directions)
Marth? (Doesn't Dtilt have a random trip chance or something?)
Ice Climbers, Olimar,
Pikachu (jab can trip or not trip)
King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch Hope I don't have to explain these
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus Ftilt tilted down trip chance, maybe others
Toon Link Dash attack trip chance, maybe others
Kirby (?), Fox (?),
R.O.B. (Dtilt trip chance)
Pit?
Peach (Dat stitchface)
Donkey Kong (Dtilt trip chance)
Luigi (Misfires)

I stopped at the beginning of D tier because you get the point. But let me just make it very clear. Down to D tier, we have:

Diddy Kong, Falco, Marth, ICs, Olimar, Lucario, Kirby, Fox, and Pit, and I'm not even sure about half of them. Think about that for a moment. Using your reasoning, we cut the characters down by a whole lot.

Notice how most of the characters up to Luigi are now unusable. Do you see the problem with limiting randomness to the most extreme degree possible now?

Sure, there's no way to balance stage spawns on asymmetrical stages, but what does that have to do with things we can balance?

Nothing, of course. It's just pointing out that it's never a matter of random or non-random, it's always a matter of more or less random. And that does make quite a big difference when talking about gameplay because you can't point to the single "non-random" stage and say "all right, this is where we will play".

But again, look at that list of playable characters up there for a moment. Do you see the problem with removing what we can balance? Taken to its extreme, you ban over half the characters in Brawl, almost all the stages (leaving one because it's "the best we can get"), and are left with a pathetic reminder of what once was a vibrant game.

Remember, this isn't a game like Brawl+ where we can just flip a switch (or, more realistically, code tirelessly) and make the randomness go away. This is a game where randomness is coded in, and we will always have to balance randomness with addition of depth, be it from game mechanics (ISP is incredibly deep) to stages (MLG got this one right) to characters (see above ).

This whole "remove as much randomness as possible" **** has to die. It's not doing us any favors.

 

[Lord Chair]

Tires don't fly in a random direction, get your facts straight.

You have to take into account the words realistically and practically. Banning half the cast isn't practical, banning stages that are objectively random is. If there were to be a character that would be overly dependent on RNG (and would be broken with a certain amount of luck) then I'd lobby for a ban on that character as well. Same reason boosting evasion in Pokémon is banned, same reason crit chance should never be implemented in any game regardless of how potentially competitive those 2 mechanics can be.

We can't fix unfixable variables, we can fix those which aren't essential to this game. Same reason trip hacks are allowed.

edit: and no, changing trip chances on attacks would be surgically messing with numbers, you can't change MK's dtilt trip chance to 0 or 100% because that'd objectively make the character respectively worse or better. With legalizing stages you're affecting the entire spectrum, and aren't objectively buffing or nerfing certain characters, especially not with our current counterpicking system.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Tires don't fly in a random direction, get your facts straight.

You have to take into account the words realistically and practically. Banning half the cast isn't practical, banning stages that are objectively random is.

Sure it is! Banning half the cast is practical, you could do it just as easily as you could turn most sane, gameplay-oriented people onto the idea of "FD only". Or do you mean beyond convincing people that it's a good idea? If so, lemme know what you're talking about.

But that said... Why does practicality matter? We're talking ideology here, whether it's practical or not should not matter at all.

If there were to be a character that would be overly dependent on RNG (and would be broken with a certain amount of luck) then I'd lobby for a ban on that character as well. Same reason boosting evasion in Pokémon is banned, same reason crit chance should never be implemented in any game regardless of how potentially competitive those 2 mechanics can be.

How about a little consistency here? The character you're describing is banworthy for being TOTALLY random, and completely removing skill from the equation. This would be akin to... Pictochat if the pictures changed every second, or Norfair if the jets were on constantly and covered almost all of the screen. There is no stage which is that bad.
What you're describing is banning stages for random effects that are all but negligable... PS1's transformation order, for example. This would, in fact, be akin to banning characters because of random effects that make a minor impact on gameplay. LIKE ABOVE. Except that, you know, some of those really have a major impact (as I explained in my post).

We can't fix unfixable variables, we can fix those which aren't essential to this game. Same reason trip hacks are allowed.

They shouldn't be; you are removing a lot of the risk from dashing and dash dancing. Trip hacks are a ******** idea both from the side of practically applying them at a large tournament and from the side of actually playing brawl.

 

[Ghostbone]

Tripping hacks are not (or at least should never be) allowed at tournaments as far as I know, because at that point you're not actually playing Brawl. And it buffs certain characters more than others.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Tripping hacks are not (or at least should never be) allowed at tournaments as far as I know, because at that point you're not actually playing Brawl. And it buffs certain characters more than others.

Bingo. Some characters (like Snake, or Marth) get very little from it, while others (Fox, Olimar, Falco) get a gigantic buff.

And if you're going to do something like that, why stop there? What about the actual code glitches? Ganon's fair, RCO lag...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then what about balancing?

etc...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Then what about balancing?

etc...

Exactly. When we start using hacks to change how Brawl is played, beyond the aesthetics (replay hacks, camera hacks, etc.), then we essentially may as well just start playing Brawl- or BBrawl.

 

[fkacyan]

So your problem is solely with randomness, correct?

Here's my problem: where do you draw the line? At Warioware, legalizing everything less random than that? That's what some people (picto advocates, MLG) do. At Pictochat, where everything better than that goes? At halberd? At PS1/PS2? At Brinstar, where there are tiny changes in the pattern of the lava from game to game? At RC, where the unevenness of the stage means that random spawns lead to potential unfairness (if you play the stage like M2K, you have an advantage if you spawn to the right instead of the left)? At Smashville, where the platform's direction can be deciding for gimps in the first few seconds of the game? At FD, where the random spawning determines in part the effectiveness of Crawldashing and other ATs that are somewhat dependent on the direction you are pointing?

...See where I'm going with this? It's literally impossible to remove all randomness. And how much randomness is acceptable is completely subjective. What's interesting in Brawl though is that you kind of have to gauge randomness against depth lost by removing it. In most cases, you can get almost everyone in the brawl community to agree-lowering the random element is not worth banning the element in question.
Hell, just apply this logic to characters for a moment! Sure, G&W, Peach, Dedede, Luigi, DK, MK, and a few others all have notable random elements. But would you ban them? No, of course not. It would destroy the game's metagame to ban all of the characters with random elements, and it would seriously hurt its depth. And that's what banning stages with random elements does too. Believe it or not, while these "random elements" are on one hand antithetical to competitive play, at the same time the stages that they are attached to offer depth, which is directly proportional to competition.

So in short, you are really, really wrong and your opinion is completely subjective.

You think it's subjective?

Oh boy, I haven't been this tempted to make a large post in a while.

ETA: Just to get an idea of where you stand, do you know why we don't just do single-match single-elimination?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Well sometimes randomness adds depth, such as in a shooter where the shots may be slightly random, if they weren't every gun would be beyond accurate and there would be a removal of both realism and depth (since now you have to aim more precisely and shoot specifically)


But at a certain point you have to determine whether the randomness is detrimental or beneficial to the game.

there isn't really a formula for it, however I generally agree with what Thio and Chair said though

 

[Lord Chair]

Trips are not an essential part to this game and provide 0 competitive depth.

Do I honestly have to elaborate on that?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Trips are not an essential part to this game and provide 0 competitive depth.

Do I honestly have to elaborate on that?

But what about ganon's Fair? What's wrong with ganon having at least one good aerial? Wouldn't that add depth?

There is very little difference.

You think it's subjective?

Oh boy, I haven't been this tempted to make a large post in a while.

ETA: Just to get an idea of where you stand, do you know why we don't just do single-match single-elimination?

"Randomness is bad for competition". This is an objective statement. However, what I'm trying to point out is that when you have to balance between randomness and depth (as is the case here) "how much randomness is too much" is completely subjective. See my post regarding characters, please-you want to remove randomness? You damn well should not leave it at stages if you're so extreme about it.

 

[Lord Chair]

No, but Ganon's fair is an essential part of the game.

Changing it would change competitive depth, and I'm not talking negatively or positively, because in a random move's case it's subjective.

Removing tripping is objectively positive.

Same reason we do best of threes, we do 3 stock matches and have a timer. We're not discussing ideology here, we're discussing THE UNITY RULESET.

Don't digress the discussion into philosophical rubbish.

 

[sunshade]

Thio while I agree that randomness is generally speaking a bad thing for competitive play I don't think that it is always bad or that it is even at a fundamental level a bad thing for competitive play. If a random element adds a large enough amount of depth then it can actually assist in determining the more skilled player.

If for example you are playing a game with an exceptionally low skill cap and you have two players, one with a skill level of 8, the other with a skill level of 11 (the numbers don't really matter for reasons other than showing that the second player is better than the first). If those two players are going at it and the game reaches a level of mastery at a skill level of 8 then both players (despite the second player being better) will go even with each other because skill only makes a difference up until you reach a level of proficiency equal to 8.

The result is that in this game with a low skill cap the player 8 is going to be equal to player 11 but if a random element added to the game was able to raise the skill cap to 12 then while the random element would add inconsistencies we would see that the level 11 player would infact win more often then if there was no random elements.

@chair: removing tripping boosts land based characters who depend on their run more than others. Characters like Wario can get by without running nearly ever but characters like sonic, olimar, and yoshi need to run more often. Pierced even said that if tripping didn't exist he would start to use dash dancing with his marth. Tripping does change the game balance and removing it would directly buff some characters over others.

If you are ok with removing tripping and are willing to go and hack the game then you should be ok with buffing or nerfing other characters since you would be doing just that by removing tripping.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't think it's realistically possible to create a game with such a low skill cap.

Even rock paper scissors can be played competitively.

 

[sunshade]

I don't think it's realistically possible to create a game with such a low skill cap.

Even rock paper scissors can be played competitively.

I feel WoW has (or had, I have not pvp'd since BC) an exceptionally low skill cap. Not that determining a games skill cap is easy and not entirly up to opinion.

The point however was that I don't think randomness is fundamentally bad and removing it at all costs is not justified. Delfino and frigate can both heavily favor certain characters over others if they randomly decide to favor certain transformations but the depth added by those stages in my opinion out weighs the randomness by a huge margin.

 

[Laem]

wooooooow this thread

But that said... Why does practicality matter? We're talking ideology here, whether it's practical or not should not matter at all.

looks at thread title
!?!?

giving mk surgical stagelimitations is a good idea tho. Consistency and stuff and things

 

[fkacyan]

Anybody who feels randomness is not entirely bad for competition is making the argument that we can shorten sets and remove rounds from losers.

It is exactly the same thing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anybody who feels randomness is not entirely bad for competition is making the argument that we can shorten sets and remove rounds from losers.

It is exactly the same thing.

Your argument of "random is always bad for competition" isn't wrong, but it isn't correct either.


I think the issue isn't necessarily that there is randomness, but whether or not it is a controlled random.
For example, G&W's Side B is an acceptable random as it can be controlled, where as items are not acceptable because they cannot be controlled.

It is why I believe people were confused with your criteria, as it sounds as if you are against all random entirely, when it is simply random outside of one's control.

Frankly, I do not think it would be possible to make an argument concerning random, primarily because it depends upon what that random factor is, as well as the degree to which it affects the gameplay.

After all, no one is going to argue about the BR spread screwing them over on a possible kill or the AR spread for that matter, but I am sure they would be willing to argue about the starman power up their opponent got while they were a giant.

 

[fkacyan]

Your argument of "random is always bad for competition" isn't wrong, but it isn't correct either.


I think the issue isn't necessarily that there is randomness, but whether or not it is a controlled random.
For example, G&W's Side B is an acceptable random as it can be controlled, where as items are not acceptable because they cannot be controlled.

It is why I believe people were confused with your criteria, as it sounds as if you are against all random entirely, when it is simply random outside of one's control.

Frankly, I do not think it would be possible to make an argument concerning random, primarily because it depends upon what that random factor is, as well as the degree to which it affects the gameplay.

After all, no one is going to argue about the BR spread screwing them over on a possible kill or the AR spread for that matter, but I am sure they would be willing to argue about the starman power up their opponent got while they were a giant.

Unless the randomness affects both players equally, which is practically impossible, it removes or lessens the effect of player skill, which is bad.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anybody who feels randomness is not entirely bad for competition is making the argument that we can shorten sets and remove rounds from losers.

It is exactly the same thing.

Bull****. There's no depth added by shortening sets/using single elimination. None at all. As said, you are completely missing the whole "removing elements lowers game depth" aspect. Again, in order to "remove randomness" as far as we can, we have to ban about half the cast.

 

[Ghostbone]

@chair: removing tripping boosts land based characters who depend on their run more than others. Characters like Wario can get by without running nearly ever but characters like sonic, olimar, and yoshi need to run more often. Pierced even said that if tripping didn't exist he would start to use dash dancing with his marth. Tripping does change the game balance and removing it would directly buff some characters over others.

This.
I know I would start dash dancing if there was no tripping.

Also it buffs Luigi and IC more than other characters as they have more chance of tripping, Ike no longer has a chance to trip when pivot grabbing wario out of an air-release, D3 won't trip during his running chaingrab, Ice Climbers can do the running d-throw chaingrab safely, etc.

Tripping is definitely at least as essential as Ganon's fair lol, and there's no justification for removing tripping and not changing other random aspects, and balancing characters, and so on.
You might as well play BBrawl.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel like bringing up that dash-dancing in Brawl is 1000 times less useful than it is in Melee, as you can't interrupt a dash into a dash-turn at any point during the dash.

Makes it much less useful for mind-games due to lost versatility and it is punishable.

 

[Ghostbone]

I feel like bringing up that dash-dancing in Brawl is 1000 times less useless than it is in Melee, as you can't interrupt a dash into a dash-turn at any point during the dash.

Makes it much less useful for mind-games due to lost versatility and it is punishable.

Oh while you don't have as much room to dash-dance that doesn't make it useless at all lol.

I feel like tripping is the main reason it's never used.

 

[fkacyan]

Bull****. There's no depth added by shortening sets/using single elimination. None at all. As said, you are completely missing the whole "removing elements lowers game depth" aspect. Again, in order to "remove randomness" as far as we can, we have to ban about half the cast.

What is game depth? What purpose does it serve?

You blindly argue in favor of it as though it is the end-all-be-all but I don't think you actually know what depth is, or you wouldn't be saying randomness is depth.

 

[John12346]

What stages do we have that are random, and why do we accept them in random play...?

Battleship Halberd
Random Factor - Weapons fired
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so.
Advance notice is given to both players, no matter what weapon is fired, and you have more than ample time to get out of the way. There are random factors, but they can be easily circumvented in this case.

Delfino Plaza
Random Factor - Landing points
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so.
Once again, ample time and notice is given to adapt to whatever part of the stage you're going to be landing on. The camera on screen will suddenly snap to the blast zones of the landing area, and you can anticipate where you'll be landing based on the background.

Frigate Orpheon
Random Factors - Time of flip, side platforms on 2nd phase
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so, tolerable.
The time when the stage flips is not a problem at all. You get more than enough warning that the stage is going to flip, and you can very easily time a jump so you're airborne when the stage flips.

On the second phase of the stage, the platforms that come out from the sides act much like the YI support ghosts; screwing up PK Thunder recoveries and causing unexpected landings. With an unexpected landing, just jump off the platform and proceed to recover. Running is not advised, because you CAN trip. As far as Ness and Lucas' PK Thunders, just execute the recovery move at a position where, even if the Frigate platforms move in, they won't get in the way.

Smashville
Random Factors - Platform's starting position, balloons
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so, tolerable.
The platform's starting position only provides a slight edge to whoever's closer to it at the match's start. Other than that, after both players have had time to move around, this randomness is negligible.

The balloons are a common theory that need to be put down now. The only recoveries the balloon can interfere with are Falcon(SideB) and Ness'. However, what you need to remember is that Falcon shouldn't be recovering with SideB anyway, and Ness should be able to drift back to the stage even if the balloon catches his PK Thunder, considering the balloon is elevated pretty high above the stage. If he was far enough from the stage that he couldn't even drift back, then he would've been edgehogged anyway even if he did successfully PK Thunder back.

And it's not so much of a hardship to recover a little lower than usual with PK Thunder in order to avoid the balloon.

Pokemon Stadium 1
Random Factor - Which transformation will occur.
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so.
First off, you're given advance notice(by the background HUD) of which transformation is going to occur, and secondly, every transformation will occur on that stage at least once, maybe twice. It's your job to remember how to take advantage of each transformation, so that you can act even if the transformation you don't like comes up twice in the match. This logic can also be applied to Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza, and Pokemon Stadium 2.

Pokemon Stadium 2
- see Pokemon Stadium 1 -

Brinstar
Random Factor - To what height the acid will rise.
Legitimacy for Legality - Tolerable.
This is more of a borderline example. The acid can come up at some unexpected times, and land you smack in the middle of a chain, but you do get enough notice from the background that the acid is coming up. If you get killed by the opponent because you got hit by the acid, it means they were paying attention to the stage and you weren't, allowing them the chance to a free hit.

The acid itself doesn't kill until like 300%, so the only time you could potentially die from it is if you were stupid and got hit by the acid, and the opponent knew you were going to get hit.

Yoshi's Island
Random Factors - Support Ghost, Shy Guys, Central Platform
Legitimacy for Legality - Tolerable, Tolerable, Very much so.
The central platform isn't much of a concern. It teeters so damn slowly, you can keep track of it very easily and use it in any way you see fit.

The Shy Guys are a bit more of a problem, because they're one of the few things that show up without advance notice. They block projectiles, and only projectiles, which, surprise surprise, should be mainly used when you're at a distance from the opponent. Regardless of whether the Shy Guys are going to randomly show up, your opponent's gonna make an action to dodge whatever you're throwing out, because even they would not expect the Shy Guys coming to block your projectile. Essentially, even though these guys can block a projectile, it generally has very little impact on play.

The Support Ghost does two things; screws up PK Thunder recoveries and saves people. As far as Ness and Lucas, they can just PK Thunder a bit away from the stage and still make it without having to worry about getting gimped.

The Support Ghost saving people is the biggest concern people have with this stage. If you've exhausted all of your recovery options, you can drift to where the Support Ghost is supposed to show up, and you have a 1 in X chance of it saving you. Since both players are allowed the liberty of this gamble, it somewhat balances out the issue.

 

[fkacyan]

What stages do we have that are random, and why do we accept them in random play...?

Battleship Halberd
Random Factor - Weapons fired
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so.
Advance notice is given to both players, no matter what weapon is fired, and you have more than ample time to get out of the way. There are random factors, but they can be easily circumvented in this case.

Delfino Plaza
Random Factor - Landing points
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so.
Once again, ample time and notice is given to adapt to whatever part of the stage you're going to be landing on. The camera on screen will suddenly snap to the blast zones of the landing area, and you can anticipate where you'll be landing based on the background.

Frigate Orpheon
Random Factors - Time of flip, side platforms on 2nd phase
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so, tolerable.
The time when the stage flips is not a problem at all. You get more than enough warning that the stage is going to flip, and you can very easily time a jump so you're airborne when the stage flips.

On the second phase of the stage, the platforms that come out from the sides act much like the YI support ghosts; screwing up PK Thunder recoveries and causing unexpected landings. With an unexpected landing, just jump off the platform and proceed to recover. Running is not advised, because you CAN trip. As far as Ness and Lucas' PK Thunders, just execute the recovery move at a position where, even if the Frigate platforms move in, they won't get in the way.

Smashville
Random Factors - Platform's starting position, balloons
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so, tolerable.
The platform's starting position only provides a slight edge to whoever's closer to it at the match's start. Other than that, after both players have had time to move around, this randomness is negligible.

The balloons are a common theory that need to be put down now. The only recoveries the balloon can interfere with are Falcon(SideB) and Ness'. However, what you need to remember is that Falcon shouldn't be recovering with SideB anyway, and Ness should be able to drift back to the stage even if the balloon catches his PK Thunder, considering the balloon is elevated pretty high above the stage. If he was far enough from the stage that he couldn't even drift back, then he would've been edgehogged anyway even if he did successfully PK Thunder back.

And it's not so much of a hardship to recover a little lower than usual with PK Thunder in order to avoid the balloon.

Pokemon Stadium 1
Random Factor - Which transformation will occur.
Legitimacy for Legality - Very much so.
First off, you're given advance notice(by the background HUD) of which transformation is going to occur, and secondly, every transformation will occur on that stage at least once, maybe twice. It's your job to remember how to take advantage of each transformation, so that you can act even if the transformation you don't like comes up twice in the match. This logic can also be applied to Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza, and Pokemon Stadium 2.

Pokemon Stadium 2
- see Pokemon Stadium 1 -

Brinstar
Random Factor - To what height the acid will rise.
Legitimacy for Legality - Tolerable.
This is more of a borderline example. The acid can come up at some unexpected times, and land you smack in the middle of a chain, but you do get enough notice from the background that the acid is coming up. If you get killed by the opponent because you got hit by the acid, it means they were paying attention to the stage and you weren't, allowing them the chance to a free hit.

The acid itself doesn't kill until like 300%, so the only time you could potentially die from it is if you were stupid and got hit by the acid, and the opponent knew you were going to get hit.

Yoshi's Island
Random Factors - Support Ghost, Shy Guys, Central Platform
Legitimacy for Legality - Tolerable, Tolerable, Very much so.
The central platform isn't much of a concern. It teeters so damn slowly, you can keep track of it very easily and use it in any way you see fit.

The Shy Guys are a bit more of a problem, because they're one of the few things that show up without advance notice. They block projectiles, and only projectiles, which, surprise surprise, should be mainly used when you're at a distance from the opponent. Regardless of whether the Shy Guys are going to randomly show up, your opponent's gonna make an action to dodge whatever you're throwing out, because even they would not expect the Shy Guys coming to block your projectile. Essentially, even though these guys can block a projectile, it generally has very little impact on play.

The Support Ghost does two things; screws up PK Thunder recoveries and saves people. As far as Ness and Lucas, they can just PK Thunder a bit away from the stage and still make it without having to worry about getting gimped.

The Support Ghost saving people is the biggest concern people have with this stage. If you've exhausted all of your recovery options, you can drift to where the Support Ghost is supposed to show up, and you have a 1 in X chance of it saving you. Since both players are allowed the liberty of this gamble, it somewhat balances out the issue.

Don't patronize me, kid. I know why many random stages are generally accepted as OK. I'm saying that it's idiocy they're accepted as such to begin with.

 

[John12346]

Well, I was just mainly typing all of that so I have a reference point.

TBH, it only seems like YI's Support Ghost is the only borderline problem, since having your stock saved is a pretty big issue.

Everything else can either be reacted to, provides little to no gameplay change, or calls for an insignificant adaptation of your own gameplay(for stage transformations and Brinstar acid).

 

[fkacyan]

Well, I was just mainly typing all of that so I have a reference point.

TBH, it only seems like YI's Support Ghost is the only borderline problem, since having your stock saved is a pretty big issue.

Everything else can either be reacted to, provides little to no gameplay change, or calls for an insignificant adaptation of your own gameplay(for stage transformations and Brinstar acid).

Do both players always 100% of the time have to react to every single random change?

No?

Well then, I don't know why you're bothering with this.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What is game depth? What purpose does it serve?

You blindly argue in favor of it as though it is the end-all-be-all but I don't think you actually know what depth is, or you wouldn't be saying randomness is depth.

...Did you see my list?

Let me give you specifics: one stage, maybe half the characters legal. Seriously, you want to talk removing randomness? The characters have it WAY worse than the stages.

 

[John12346]

Do both players always 100% of the time have to react to every single random change?

No?

Well then, I don't know why you're bothering with this.

Uh, how about YES

If you can't successfully react to random obstacles that give you 5-6 seconds of warning, you probably shouldn't be playing this game.

Real world example: In baseball, if a pop fly is hit to right field, the right fielder is expected to position himself under the ball each and every time to catch it. Even though the right fielder can't possibly predict WHEN a pop fly will be hit to him and WHERE the ball will actually land until the batter hits the ball, he gets ample time to prepare himself to catch the ball when it actually does get sent his way. This kind of adaptation players need to make in the game of baseball is considered highly competitive.

 

[fkacyan]

Uh, how about YES

If you can't successfully react to random obstacles that give you 5-6 seconds of warning, you probably shouldn't be playing this game.

Real world example: In baseball, if a pop fly is hit to right field, the right fielder is expected to position himself under the ball each and every time to catch it. Even though the right fielder can't possibly predict WHEN a pop fly will be hit to him and WHERE the ball will actually land until the batter hits the ball, he gets ample time to prepare himself to catch the ball when it actually does get sent his way. This kind of adaptation players need to make in the game of baseball is considered highly competitive.

Did you just compare a random event to baseball

I dont

I dont ****ing even

what

wow

Somebody give me a reason to not have him on ignore for blatant stupidity

 

[John12346]

Oh no getting chewed out for making a completely legitimate argument

The transformations on Pokemon Stadium 1... you don't know which transformation will happen until they tell you on the screen in the background, but then you get 5-10 seconds to get ready for it. You get plenty of time to position yourself where you want to be on the stage before anything drastic happens.

The same can be said for Smashville's platform's starting position(you get the 3, 2, 1, GO! to prepare for it), Delfino's landing points, Halberd's weapons, etc...

Comparing this to baseball:
The location of where a baseball will land in the outfield... you don't know where it will land until the batter hits it out there, but then you get 5-10 seconds to get ready to catch it. You get plenty of time to position yourself underneath the ball before it actually lands, so you can actually catch it.

Explain how being expected to react to a random event in Brawl that gives you 5-10 seconds of warning every time is any different from expecting an outfielder to be prepared to head anywhere within their catching range every time a pop-fly is sent their way. And while you're at it, explain to me why either makes their respective game any worse.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh no getting chewed out for making a completely legitimate argument

The transformations on Pokemon Stadium 1... you don't know which transformation will happen until they tell you on the screen in the background, but then you get 5-10 seconds to get ready for it. You get plenty of time to position yourself where you want to be on the stage before anything drastic happens.

The same can be said for Smashville's platform's starting position(you get the 3, 2, 1, GO! to prepare for it), Delfino's landing points, Halberd's weapons, etc...

Comparing this to baseball:
The location of where a baseball will land in the outfield... you don't know where it will land until the batter hits it out there, but then you get 5-10 seconds to get ready to catch it. You get plenty of time to position yourself underneath the ball before it actually lands, so you can actually catch it.

Explain how being expected to react to a random event in Brawl that gives you 5-10 seconds of warning every time is any different from expecting an outfielder to be prepared to head anywhere within their catching range every time a pop-fly is sent their way. And while you're at it, explain to me why either makes their respective game any worse.

Since you really don't seem to get why that analogy is so effing ********

The gods are not throwing the ball. It is player interaction that causes the placement of the ball.

The only accurate analogy involving THAT example would be Peach throwing a veg, but that's only "random" by player placement, not by an arbitrary random number seed.

How much warning is given is completely irrelevant. Unless you can guarantee both players will have to interact exactly the same way, you're removing the equality in the way they're being statistically tested for skill, and thus the results cannot be depended on.

A tourney is one giant statistical test, and until you understand the concept of a statistical test, confidence values, etc, you probably will continue to post stupid crap like this.

 

[John12346]

Oh excuse me.

Batter hits the ball toward center field; random gust of wind blows the ball to the left when it reaches its apex of travel. The center fielder still has ample time to react to this random change in gameplay, much like how a Brawler would have time to react to the aforementioned stage interactions.

Back to my question.

Explain how being expected to react to a random event in Brawl that gives you 5-10 seconds of warning every time is any different from expecting an outfielder to be prepared to head anywhere within their catching range every time a pop-fly is sent their way. And while you're at it, explain to me why either makes their respective game any worse.

A tournament is a test of skill, and stages with obstacles that have an almost non-existent intrusiveness level, even on the random scale, play a role in it. If one can't adapt to simple stage interactions that neither kill you and also give you a ****load of time to work around, then that person is a bad player. It's just that simple.

Halberd's cannon shot approaching the stage doesn't suddenly inhibit either player's ability to move or interact with each other or the stage. They both have enough time to move out of the way or create a setup that gets the other guy hit by it. Essentially, the amount of time given to escape and plan completely negates any and all immediate positional advantages given by the shot while also executing a test of skill between the two players.

Someone getting hit with the Halberd cannon without it being the opponent's fault is just a bad player with an even worse reaction time. Standard deviation didn't have **** to do with that.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh excuse me.

Batter hits the ball toward center field; random gust of wind blows the ball to the left when it reaches its apex of travel. The center fielder still has ample time to react to this random change in gameplay, much like how a Brawler would have time to react to the aforementioned stage interactions.

Back to my question.



A tournament is a test of skill, and stages with obstacles that have an almost non-existent intrusiveness level, even on the random scale, play a role in it. If one can't adapt to simple stage interactions that neither kill you and also give you a ****load of time to work around, then that person is a bad player. It's just that simple.

Halberd's cannon shot approaching the stage doesn't suddenly inhibit either player's ability to move or interact with each other or the stage. They both have enough time to move out of the way or create a setup that gets the other guy hit by it. Essentially, the amount of time given to escape and plan completely negates any and all immediate positional advantages given by the shot while also executing a test of skill between the two players.

Someone getting hit with the Halberd cannon without it being the opponent's fault is just a bad player with an even worse reaction time. Standard deviation didn't have **** to do with that.

<----- Point







<----- Your head

It's not about whether or not you have time to react. It's whether or not each players' skill is tested equally all the time.

Whatever, dude, you don't get it and I won't waste any more of my time trying.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And this is why we can't have nice things.