Treesicle: Why Super Smash Bros Will Never Be A Major eSport

[Dapplegonger]

I pretty much agree with everything said in that video.
On the briefly discussed payout structure, that's one reason I would never travel any significant distance to a tournament. 1869 players for Smash Melee at EVO 2015 and 8 got paid (only 0.43%). 1st place at EVO got 60% of the prize. That's stupid on so many levels.

The payout ratio is understandable though. MLG 2010 for example had a first place prize of $12500, 36% of the total prize pool of $35000. Evo had a first place prize of $11556, 60% of the total prize pool of $19260. At first it may seem strange that the ratios are so off there. But you have to realize, somebody has to get paid big bucks. It's Evo, it's MLG. If we get MLG level payouts again, then everybody can get much more money. But for now, there just isn't enough money in the scene for everybody to get paid similar amounts and still have somebody go home with enough money to make a living.

 

[PTFool]

This is so unbelievably pointless. Of course Smash will never be as big as LOL. We're not even trying to be. Fighting games simply aren't as popular as MOBAs and whatever. Fine. That doesn't mean it can't be an esport. The golf/soccer analogy was perfect. Golf may not be as popular as soccer, but there are enough people who watch it that those who play it are considered professional athletes. I'm not wishing for the 30 million people who watch/play LOL, I just want Smash to get as big as it can get and wherever that is is fine.

 

[Tornado]

The payout ratio is understandable though. MLG 2010 for example had a first place prize of $12500, 36% of the total prize pool of $35000. Evo had a first place prize of $11556, 60% of the total prize pool of $19260. At first it may seem strange that the ratios are so off there. But you have to realize, somebody has to get paid big bucks. It's Evo, it's MLG. If we get MLG level payouts again, then everybody can get much more money. But for now, there just isn't enough money in the scene for everybody to get paid similar amounts and still have somebody go home with enough money to make a living.

All your points I understand. I actually spent plenty of time when I was writing my post, comparing it to the World Series of Poker (WSOP) payouts, and reaching the conclusion that in this type of "business", you need to pay out bigger amounts of money to higher players to make it deemed "worth it" for the top players to travel out for it.

It's funny to me he mentions the WSOP, because I almost went to it this year in Vegas. Am I a great poker player capable of winning the millions of dollars in top prizes? Exceedingly likely no. But I would go for the experience of it all, and yeah... the chance that I slip through the cracks and make the top 10-15% and make some money (something a smash event will never be able to offer).

When it comes down to it, there are 2 immediate things one plays in EVO, or APEX, etc. for.. 1) the experience/atmosphere of it all. 2) the prize... and as it stands right now (and there's really nothing that can be done about it), the prize is unobtainable for literally 99% of these huge events.

 

[Browny]

I'm glad they mentioned the pathetic payout structure.

For the VAST majority of smash bros owners, they refuse to pay $10 to enter a tournament when they know there isn't a hope in hell of them ever getting a return on that. You tell them they need to go to tournaments to get better, they are going to have to go to like 20 before they get to a level when they can maybe place in the money if they're lucky, suddenly that's $200 spent on a game with exactly 0 guarantee of winning anything.

This is against League which is free.

And that is a very, very big deal. Smash bros has a truly gigantic install base with more players than SF4, Marvel, Tekken combined yet the scenes are tiny and that's because the average player is young, and the average young player doesn't have $200 to spend getting their ass handed to them in tournaments.

I still maintain the absolute best way for smash to grow in size, like 5x, is for tournaments to be free entry or at max, $2. Majors and regionals etc should still have entry fees so the pros can make it worth their time, you need like $5k prizes in regionals to get them to come. But for everything else, dropping the entry fee would make the game far more accessible.

I still remember in 2009, my city hosted a brawl tournament inside a convention with free entry and got 410 entrants in singles. Our monthly tournaments were never getting past about 22. In fact to this day even with smash 4 and melee being very popular, the most we have gotten yet is only 35 since that day. I tried my best to convince many of the players in 2009 to join the scene but it was the same every time, no one wanted to spend $10 to lose and go home.

If smash ever wants to grow to significant e-sports status, it needs far... far more players. 200k Evo stream viewers? No, we need 2 million before its taken seriously. By alienating the vast majority of players with exorbitant entry fees, you will never grow to that size.

The smash community literally just keeps on pushing new people away while deluding themselves into thinking 'it helps people get better'.

If Riot introduced a monthly subscription fee to the game, would they say it helps people get better? Of course bloody not, it would drive people away. So why is the smash community obsessed with charging high entry fees when it is clear as day, the biggest E-sports titles are free to enter tournaments? Cash entry fees are only an incentive to the top few % of players. to the other 98% of players, they push them away.

But I know things will never change, and people will continue to lie to themselves about why cash entry is important and smash will always be a niche market with its own tiny corner of the internet, forever in the shadow of games that welcome new players and don't push them away behind a paywall of entry fees merely to participate.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Because it's Nintendo (made for kids), a long fighting party game that distrubutes some fighting and a Mario party mini game in a sense. As well to end a game or win a round would require that stocks (lives) be all taken away by falling of a stage or being blasted away in general. Meter bar (people still wont understand after that word I just wrote), and as well the only game that doesn't exhibit a health bar and super combos (not Final Smashes) (what does that even mean? nothing because it's a KID'S video-game).

There's more but these aspects are the bane of Smash's existence towards ever taken seriously by fighting game communities. Thanks.

 

[Bad1]

Noob here.

I have to disagree with the whole "It's not online so it won't become a major". Even though LoL, DOTA2, ect ect are "online" the tournaments are played no different than smash ones. Live, in your face, opponents across from you (in our case next to you).

Yes I see that because it is not online the "knowledgeable" fan-base is lower, but I think having to have a massive fan-base of people who actually play the game (even casually) to make it a major eSport is becoming less valid as things like streaming (twitch.tv) are becoming such a common casual hobby.

People view games on streams they sometimes never touch. Really if smash wants to become a major eSport all it's going to take is hooking in casual gamers which takes really good commentating (kinda there), kickass sponsors (allowing for more payout, possibly free entry so no risk high reward), and likable players/teams.

Hell sports like football attract millions of people to watch the game and many of them never even touched a football. You don't have to make it something everyone plays, just something everyone can relate to.

Then again the question becomes... do you want that for smash?

 

[Im Fragbait]

It never was big, sure it might of had it's MLG run and current EVO streak but it's not even big. I agree with that.
Nobody is going to call out the names of our favorite smashers at the grocers anytime soon because of them being huge.
However, I disagree with you on your point on people playing this game. There might be a few dead zones here and there for competitive games, some people have different tastes. However, we must make the move to make sure smash becomes noticed outside our normal bounds. Not sit here on our keyboards and do nothing about it in this closed off section of the internet.
Tell people what competitive smash is.
Start a scene.
Start rivalries.
Cause drama.
Build off of each other.
Do whatever it takes that is right to get this game on people's radar.

I completely agree... I just think having an online community helps players and complements the game and community as a whole by allowing players who do face these challenges accel. I was one of the few people who grew in a community where smash was hard to access it seemed like a closed off community with a high skill floor, not many people wanting to help or accept me as a player. Through perseverance i ended up learning the game myself through streams, videos, playing with friends, experimenting and it was great, but i had a drive that seems to be pretty rare. I know of so many people who just say screw this game because they are intimidated by how much there is to learn and how little people are there to help. looking at my friend who started 3 weeks ago with my help and me a year and a half ago, it took me way more effort and way more time to get good then it did him. All im saying is its this help and directed effort by the community that will make us grow in numbers.

 

[Champ Gold]

The one major reason why Smash will never become e-sports has and will always be Nintendo themselves.

That and the payout is absurd as hell.
I can agree with that, Nintendo will never add in to the pot and winnings are so small especially with games like 64 and PM

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Lol when i got into smash people said it would never go to evo, keep doubting it.

 

[Eliwood]

But I love Smash... ;-;

 

[Iceweasel]

Ugh, more clickbait? This video was absolute nonsense. The only halfway reasonable argument presented was that Smash isn't as accessible as League.. Which only really applies to MELEE, since we have a brand-new Smash game out right now. Everything other argument that was presented was so full of holes I could use it to filter paint. Please, @ LiteralGrill , use some discretion when frontpaging something. One Omni is bad enough, there's no reason to get two. Or continue frontpaging the first one, now that I think about it.

 

[Seal]

Because it's Nintendo (made for kids), a long fighting party game that distrubutes some fighting and a Mario party mini game in a sense. As well to end a game or win a round would require that stocks (lives) be all taken away by falling of a stage or being blasted away in general. Meter bar (people still wont understand after that word I just wrote), and as well the only game that doesn't exhibit a health bar and super combos (not Final Smashes) (what does that even mean? nothing because it's a KID'S video-game).

There's more but these aspects are the bane of Smash's existence towards ever taken seriously by fighting game communities. Thanks.

So you're saying it won't be successful because it is different. I disagree.

 

[TheFlyingCule]

I mean like...not many people really care if it's a major eSport. No FG is in the position to be one, but it's still big, and its important to a lot of people, and that's what matters.

Baseball will never be a major sport and is completely trounced by Cricket outside of select few countries, but to those into Baseball, of which there are still millions, it's important to them, and that's what matters

 

[manrangan]

How many of these methods have actually been actively prevented by Nintendo? It wouldn't be used in tournaments anyway; just for at-home practicing and such.

(Not to mention the fact that SSBM isn't sold in stores or even on the Virtual Console, so there's really no other way to play it besides overpaying on eBay or something.)

Considering Nintendo took down coolrom's nintendo platform section, which contained a rom of Melee, i'd consider that they're trying to take down piracy. Just because they don't sell it anymore doesn't mean it's magically legal, and with Nintendo sponsoring tournaments now I sincerely doubt that we'll be seeing PC set ups emulating Melee at tourneys anytime soon. It doesn't matter what you do at home, because this video was about tournaments anyways

 

[Dapplegonger]

Considering Nintendo took down coolrom's nintendo platform section, which contained a rom of Melee, i'd consider that they're trying to take down piracy. Just because they don't sell it anymore doesn't mean it's magically legal, and with Nintendo sponsoring tournaments now I sincerely doubt that we'll be seeing PC set ups emulating Melee at tourneys anytime soon. It doesn't matter what you do at home, because this video was about tournaments anyways

I understand that Nintendo is trying to take down piracy, but why must they take down piracy when their own profit isn't at stake? Nintendo can no longer profit off of Melee or off of the GameCube! They can profit off of GameCube controllers, but you have to buy those and an adaptor to get a pirated game to work! If Nintendo was still selling copies, or intends to sell copies in the future, I'd fully support it. But as it is, they just made it more difficult to play one of their games that can no longer provide income.

 

[PB&J]

Sigh...this article..welp. Its sad if people beleive this but its whatevs

 

[Paxadin]

Because...!

uhhh...

Because ...maybe because y-your Garbage!

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWHAT someone call the fire department!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMMR5h2MYrY

But seriously, as others have said, there's no need for smash to become a "major esport".

 

[manrangan]

I understand that Nintendo is trying to take down piracy, but why must they take down piracy when their own profit isn't at stake? Nintendo can no longer profit off of Melee or off of the GameCube! They can profit off of GameCube controllers, but you have to buy those and an adaptor to get a pirated game to work! If Nintendo was still selling copies, or intends to sell copies in the future, I'd fully support it. But as it is, they just made it more difficult to play one of their games that can no longer provide income.

If they're sponsoring 12 year old game tournaments, I'm sure they're getting income.

 

[Kink-Link5]

"Metal athletes"

There isn't much more of a cringe-worthy thing to hear in the world than this.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

So you're saying it won't be successful because it is different. I disagree.

It's a Mario party game that has a sequence of fighting involved but a more Mario Party feeling around the whole game mechanics.

See you didn't fathom to brainstorm (not surprised) a little bit towards understanding why I wrote "there's more (but)" that means there are more small careless situations that play part towards Smash being anything bigger than a bunch of teenagers/somewhat adults or commentators smothering this "hype" around every individual that watches or listens to a Brawl match.

There is nothing "hype" they exaggerate small outcomes to manifest those outcomes into something so insane that not even women can't keep their pants up, did you notice how I "exaggerated" my metaphor there?

Well imagine or never-mind, imagine everyone else has to read or sigh in disbelief towards how annoying this community is. Even the FGC isn't this annoying like the Smash community is, for starters they don't yell from their hail-way door yelling "hype" another exaggeration, huh?

They honestly don't really make a big deal like the Smash community does, they are just gamer-s who play a traditional fighting game (which plays a huge role) almost all of them are adults (meh) and they treat the game like it is a big deal without enforcing words to be pushed somewhere in there so in other words (they show not say).

Doesn't matter how much people attend or try to "hype" anything up or the "get hype" cliches, Smash will continue to become a nobody in the FGC no matter what. Why?

It's not even a traditional fighting game to begin with, most of the players are infant based and it's Nintendo "a kid family based home entertainment system". Not only that but even adding Ryu to the Smash-4 roaster didn't cause any impact at all. Case closed.

Not only that but the community (not me involved as in the community) argues about which is better and which game is bad "Brawl's bad" "this game is slow". Should I continue, or do you have enough information from my perceptive side of this view? Thanks.

 

[Largo Shogun]

I don't care if smash "gets big."

Nor do I care that other people don't think smash is a real fighting game.

I like smash. That's all there is to it.

 

[ssknight7]

It's a Mario party game that has a sequence of fighting involved but a more Mario Party feeling around the whole game mechanics.

See you didn't fathom to brainstorm (not surprised) a little bit towards understanding why I wrote "there's more (but)" that means there are more small careless situations that play part towards Smash being anything bigger than a bunch of teenagers/somewhat adults or commentators smothering this "hype" around every individual that watches or listens to a Brawl match.

There is nothing "hype" they exaggerate small outcomes to manifest those outcomes into something so insane that not even women can't keep their pants up, did you notice how I "exaggerated" my metaphor there?

Well imagine or never-mind, imagine everyone else has to read or sigh in disbelief towards how annoying this community is. Even the FGC isn't this annoying like the Smash community is, for starters they don't yell from their hail-way door yelling "hype" another exaggeration, huh?

They honestly don't really make a big deal like the Smash community does, they are just gamer-s who play a traditional fighting game (which plays a huge role) almost all of them are adults (meh) and they treat the game like it is a big deal without enforcing words to be pushed somewhere in there so in other words (they show not say).

Doesn't matter how much people attend or try to "hype" anything up or the "get hype" cliches, Smash will continue to become a nobody in the FGC no matter what. Why?

It's not even a traditional fighting game to begin with, most of the players are infant based and it's Nintendo "a kid family based home entertainment system". Not only that but even adding Ryu to the Smash-4 roaster didn't cause any impact at all. Case closed.

Not only that but the community (not me involved as in the community) argues about which is better and which game is bad "Brawl's bad" "this game is slow". Should I continue, or do you have enough information from my perceptive side of this view? Thanks.

Noone has ever failed this hard at trying to sound smart. You come off as deeply autistic. Keep working at it though.

 

[Broham]

Sidenote: don't you love when controversies such as this one will cause all of us to discuss it frantically causing more attention to be gained for the subject in question.

It is my personal belief that smash 4 will end up the same as melee in terms of competitive play that will eventually die out when smash 5 hits the scene. People may continue to play smash 4 competitively, but in the end those smash 4 players will get curious about smash 5. Curiosity takes over and before you know it a "new" smash 5 player hits the scene.

It may take a very long time before smash gets into a major Esport. We should all recognise that and take action to make smash more accessible to our friends and our families as well. Doing so only fixes half of the problems proposed in the video. To make smash in general more accessible will require about 3 straight years of dedication conjoined by the European, Japanese, and American smashers to involve everyone who can and will join smash. Half of the work is done already because they'll spread the new smash game (or cool older one too) with thier associates and so forth spreading starts and the first million dollar tourneys arrive making smash nearly prooved as an Esport. Of coarse if nintendo ever decides to back up smash with money then two years of work are already taken away.

Summary: help out making smash accessible by sharing it with as many people as you can and helping them to help you make smash even bigger!

 

[Dapplegonger]

If they're sponsoring 12 year old game tournaments, I'm sure they're getting income.

But not from the sale of the game. They could just as easily sponsor tournaments that feature pirated versions of the game because they won't profit from selling the games anymore. It's not like buying Melee off of Ebay or from the discount bin at Gamestop is going to give them any profit. They get money, the game becomes more accessible, everybody's happy.

Of course pirated copies of Smash 4 (do those even exist yet?) should be stopped immediately. *Maybe* Brawl, idk if copies of those are still being sold.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Noone has ever failed this hard at trying to sound smart. You come off as deeply autistic. Keep working at it though.

This is what I'm writing about, you're kids no one will take you seriously not even I (like I ever do). Thanks.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Noone has ever failed this hard at trying to sound smart. You come off as deeply autistic. Keep working at it though.

You come off as a massive dickweed for using a mental condition as a insult. Keep working on that civility, though. ;p

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

You come off as a massive dickweed for using a mental condition as a insult.

Further proof that humanity's probably screwed.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

And once more you're the only community that acts like to you act. No I'm a penis - weed? you mean head, right? (whatsoever that means). I'm facing reality. It makes me actually laugh in real life, because all of a sudden when Smash-4 is created therefore the situation of Smash being taken seriously shall come true because Smash-4 is here to resolve everything grunts.

Not only that but Smash-4 is even more simple based than Brawl and the sudden patches that don't help anything. My point? It's not going to happen ever (unless Nintendo pays for the game to be accepted as one like they did with Smash-4 at Evolution 2015).

Compared to the rest of you, I don't care what people believe about the games. I'll play them and enjoy them whether the majority enjoys them to prosper or not. And that right there is were I'm separated from the majority of the community (never was). Also my comment wasn't an "insult;" however, you wrote I'm a penis marijuana (why do I even continue meh) oh wow such an insult like that insult insulted my masculinity to actually decrease. Well my brain hurt but that's about that towards your comment. Thanks.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

And once more you're the only community that acts like to you act. No I'm a penis - head (whatsoever that means). I facing reality. It makes me actually laugh in real life that all of a sudden when Smash-4 is created that the situation of Smash being taken more seriously shall prevalent then in reality it's not.

Not only that but Smash-4 is even more simple based than Brawl and the sudden patches that don't help anything. My point? It's not going to happen ever (unless Nintendo pays for the game to be accepted as one Luke they did with Evolution 2015).

Compared to the rest of you, I don't care what people believe about the games. I'll play them and enjoy them whether the majority enjoys them to prosper or not. And that right there is were I'm separated from the majority of the community (never was). Also my comment was an "insult;" however, you wrote I'm a penis head, oh wow such an insult (like insulted me will lower my masculinity). Thanks.

They were not talking to you last I checked.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

They were not talking to you last I checked.

You didn't even give me enough time to double check sheesh. Also I reacted by instinct as in (a new nonfiction message oh boy here we go again). So my point is, I didn't bother to read the name of that user that was being quoted upon (believing it was me because I wrote a comment and so people will respond to my comment without thinking). My apologies I'll somewhat brainstorm since I witnessed some order at the moment. Thanks.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

You didn't even give me enough time to double check sheesh. Also I reacted by instinct as in (a new nonfiction message) oh boy here we go again. So my point is I didn't bother to read the name of person that was quotes to. My apologies I'm somewhat brainstorm since I view some order at the moment. Thanks.

Not to come across as an asshole but try to keep that from happening again 'kay? And you're welcome .

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Not to come across as an ******* but try to keep that from happening again 'kay? And you're welcome .

I'll have to witness what unfolds towards my comment, and what type of stir my comment will distinguish or distribute.

 

[ChikoLad]

There is nothing "hype" they exaggerate small outcomes to manifest those outcomes into something so insane that not even women can't keep their pants up, did you notice how I "exaggerated" my metaphor there?

You can literally apply this to anything. Doesn't make it OK though.

A lot of people who don't care about games like League perceive League players to be a bunch of fat nerds with loads of acne all over their faces who have no lives, who play League because levelling up their Paladin is their greatest purpose in life.

A lot of people who don't play soccer would perceive soccer players to be a bunch of overpaid pansies who act like tripping on some grass is like taking a bullet to the knee, and that there is nothing exciting or hype about watching a leather ball be kicked around by a few young men, answering to the natural laws of gravity.

Just because you don't enjoy something on the same level as others, doesn't mean it invalidates the enjoyment they have, nor does it make it OK to generalise. Go raibh maith agat.

 

[Darklink401]

Ehhhhh...I can see where he's coming from..but you can just download Melee into a USB. (And the wii was heavily popular) or play it on an emulator (free)

The 'keeps changing' part, that's why we SEPARATE them xD Some people specialize in melee, others in smash 4, and they dont necessarily interchange (M2k and a few others do both tho) so in that regard I think he should look at smash games AS different games with similar mechanics. Cuz that's what they are xP

Nice try tho, treesicle.

 

[ViridianViridi]

On the "Fandom Berserk Button" page of TV tropes:
"A great way to piss off any Smash fan? Say it's not a "real" fighting game".

I know they weren't saying it wasn't one, but still. You done ****ed up Treesicle, have fun!

 

[ChikoLad]

TBH I think the bottom line here is "Never say never".

It's cliche, I know. But it is a very true message. If people want it to get bigger, it will never get bigger if we just sit around saying it won't. Gotta keep trying to expand like we're a silly Donkey Kong meme.

 

[Munomario777]

It's a Mario party game that has a sequence of fighting involved but a more Mario Party feeling around the whole game mechanics.

See you didn't fathom to brainstorm (not surprised) a little bit towards understanding why I wrote "there's more (but)" that means there are more small careless situations that play part towards Smash being anything bigger than a bunch of teenagers/somewhat adults or commentators smothering this "hype" around every individual that watches or listens to a Brawl match.

There is nothing "hype" they exaggerate small outcomes to manifest those outcomes into something so insane that not even women can't keep their pants up, did you notice how I "exaggerated" my metaphor there?

Well imagine or never-mind, imagine everyone else has to read or sigh in disbelief towards how annoying this community is. Even the FGC isn't this annoying like the Smash community is, for starters they don't yell from their hail-way door yelling "hype" another exaggeration, huh?

They honestly don't really make a big deal like the Smash community does, they are just gamer-s who play a traditional fighting game (which plays a huge role) almost all of them are adults (meh) and they treat the game like it is a big deal without enforcing words to be pushed somewhere in there so in other words (they show not say).

Doesn't matter how much people attend or try to "hype" anything up or the "get hype" cliches, Smash will continue to become a nobody in the FGC no matter what. Why?

It's not even a traditional fighting game to begin with, most of the players are infant based and it's Nintendo "a kid family based home entertainment system". Not only that but even adding Ryu to the Smash-4 roaster didn't cause any impact at all. Case closed.

Not only that but the community (not me involved as in the community) argues about which is better and which game is bad "Brawl's bad" "this game is slow". Should I continue, or do you have enough information from my perceptive side of this view? Thanks.

How is it not a fighting game?! It's a game where you fight. That's like saying that Mario Kart isn't a racing game. Not a traditional fighting game =/= not a fighting game. Who cares if the game is made with children in mind? It's made with adults in mind too, ya know, and the game is great for competitive play.

 

[necroTaxonomist]

I didn't read any of this, yet posted. What do i win?

May a thousand years of upvotes fall upon thee

 

[BuTTNutz]

anyone else smell controversy?

 

[EpixAura]

Really, who particularly cares about whether Smash is eSports or not? Sure, it may attract more sponsors for top players, but what will it done for 99% of the community? On the other hand, we've seen quite a few complaints about people trying to make commentary more professional and proper than it needs to be, justified under the phrase "we eSports now."

Whether or not Smash becomes an eSport really doesn't matter, and the "Smash community" (I use this term loosely because it's broad and not particularly accurate) has proved that it can continue to grow and improve without the idea of eSports, sponsorships, huge prize pools, or Nintendo support. Honestly, what does a small idea like 'eSports' matter to us?