Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #6: Falco (REDISCUSS)

[VietGeek]

RE-DISCUSSION TIME

Falco

Ratio: 55:45 Falco

Synopsis (OUTDATED; DISREGARD):

Match-up #6: Falco

Character Overview:
Falco Lombardi was often overshadowed by his Starfox counterpart - Fox - in Melee, but in Brawl is considered the most tournament viable character of the series. Falco is certainly a Top Tier contender and will give Toon Link one heck of a fight. Although our boy may have every projectile under the sun, Falco’s laser and reflector make camping futile and force Toon to approach. One of Falco’s biggest strength is his amazing chain grab which can lead into a dair spike, as well as build up mass damage.

Toon Link’s Advantages/Strategies
- Toon’s zair will hit Falco out of his phantasm (his primary recovery method). This can force Falco to use his Firefox (Up Special) which can often lead to a gimp. Zair work’s well for approaching as well, but is outranged slightly by Falco’s reflector.
- Nair can be used as a “faster fair” to get Falco off the stage in an attempt to gimp
- Try to recover above Falco, it will give you more of an advantage
- If this isn’t possible remember Uair > Falco’s Dair (which Falco’s love to abuse) so use it when trying to recover if Falco thinks he can gimp you.
- Bombs aren’t set off or made to explode by Falco’s laser so try to have one handy as much as possible, pull one out at every chance possible, etc. Bombs also aren’t reflected by Falco’s Down Special
- If his reflector gives you problems, time any attack properly and it will stop it. Fair is easiest since it has a huge vertical hitbox. Nair/Bair works so as long as it is timed and angled correctly.
- If you see a reflector coming and you can block the hit it with your shield, it should be a free grab
- Once you invade Falco’s space, hit him with some bairs and nairs and try to generally stay in the air.
- For Counterpicks, Delfino and Rainbow Cruise are great. Delfino is probably better since the end of Rainbow Cruise starts getting ******** for both players. Both Falco and TL kill mostly vertically or via gimps so the Counterpicks just counter Falco's situational and often gimpable recovery.

Toon Link Disadvantages/What to look out for
- Falco’s SHDL (short hop double laser), when done perfectly will outcamp Toon Link
- The second laser shot from the SHDL when performed perfectly is called a “silent laser.” This is because Falco doesn’t have a shooting animation (just the laser) and therefore the silent laser is lagless. Additionally, the silent laser can’t be blocked by the hero’s shield
- If Falco is not below the imaginary horizontal line which connects to the ledge (meaning, he can’t use his phantasm to recover) don’t go offstage to gimp him, as the Side B can spike
- Watch out for when Falco turns his back to you, as this usually means a bair is coming your way. Bair is arguably Falco’s best aerial and can kill at moderately high percents
- If done properly Falco’s chain grab can deal up to 40% (60% with the gatling combo?) but can be escaped if not performed correctly. Don’t get grabbed.
- Ban Final Destination. SHDL spam should be avoided where possible.

Conclusion
Falco’s ability to render two of Toon Link’s biggest Trump Cards - his projectiles and zair - almost useless (or at least limited when compared to how much TL spams them in other match-ups) is enough in itself to give Falco the advantage. However, once Toon gets in close with bombs and aerials he is in a good position to set up a gimp or at least deal some damage. The general consensus seems to be 55:45 in favour of Falco.

 

[Stoo99]

Decent falcos always outcamp me with shdl, ugh
Anyone have any pointers for getting around this?

 

[VietGeek]

Decent falcos always outcamp me with shdl, ugh
Anyone have any pointers for getting around this?

You have to approach him. Camping is futile.

 

[Trifroze]

When is Metaknight going to be done btw?

Anyway use uair while recovering back to the ledge if you can and don't camp for more than couple arrows at once because he'll most likely use his reflector after those. For some reason I find myself using nair with Falcos more than usually, often as a kill move because they run to the edge and spam SHDL. >_>

 

[Santi]

Thank god Falco is next.

 

[Sosuke]

Stop their gay side-b recovery with Zair. =P
Thats probably the most useful thing I know.
If they're forced to use up-B from a low angle, free Dair opportunity.
I'm pretty sure you can crouch and get up to block the lasers.
Have a bomb out.
Uhh >_> do this Viet thing with the Zair, bomb throw, Usmash.
They can't do anything when above you. So Uair time.
As I said before, just have bombs out. =o

We need a Falco mainers input.

 

[DanGR]

Uhhh, I use falco some.
-bombs don't explode upon laser impact. They go through the laser, but with some strange hitstun crud.
-don't go out past the stage to edgeguard unless they're below the horizontal line that connects with the stage.
-zair>phantasm
-we use dair too often. >_> expect it, and try to recover above falco rather than from below like some peeps do.

 

[ZeroXMachine]

I've had trouble approaching Falco when he uses his reflector kick. It outranges zair slightly and comes out super fast. It's annoying (on top of not being able to utilize projectiles as often as we'd like). Any good ideas for approaching?

 

[Sosuke]

I've had trouble approaching Falco when he uses his reflector kick. It outranges zair slightly and comes out super fast. It's annoying (on top of not being able to utilize projectiles as often as we'd like). Any good ideas for approaching?

Do reflectors push back bombs that have been dropped on the level?

 

[Jellyfishn]

I do not think so. But in case you guys hadn't heard, you can reflect Falcos reflector back at him. You simply time a Fair so it hits the reflector. I have a thread with some videos of it. Just search for it.

 

[l SOUP l]

When getting in close just go with bombs all the way. Once you are close enough that you know you are in danger of reflector, start using zair. Once you poke him with it a couple of times start with some bairs and nairs, sneak in some boomerangs and arrows.

 

[VietGeek]

I do not think so. But in case you guys hadn't heard, you can reflect Falcos reflector back at him. You simply time a Fair so it hits the reflector. I have a thread with some videos of it. Just search for it.

I told you, time any attack and it will work. Nair/Bair works too so as long as it is timed and angled correctly. Fair is easiest since it has a huge vertical hitbox.

 

[Santi]

I just wait for the Falco to reflector when I close in.
Shield t it early because that's when it can hit you then run up and grab.
Any time a Falco uses reflector on you and you block the hit it should be a free grab.
That's how I get Falco's to stop spamming that bad boy.

I learned alot of stuff on the reflector by going to the Falco boards and reading the guide on the shine.

 

[TLMarth]

Stop their gay side-b recovery with Zair. =P
Thats probably the most useful thing I know.
If they're forced to use up-B from a low angle, free Dair opportunity.
I'm pretty sure you can crouch and get up to block the lasers.
Have a bomb out.
Uhh >_> do this Viet thing with the Zair, bomb throw, Usmash.
VG combo!
They can't do anything when above you. So Uair time.
But they has t3h dair.
As I said before, just have bombs out. =o

We need a Falco mainers input.

Since Falco's laser goes horizontally, it goes a long way without hitting the ground (>.> ARROWS)
So I think it's dangerous to try to fight him long range, 'cause he might outrange you. And if he uses shdb, he will have enough time to use the reflector....

 

[Sosuke]

TL's Uair breaks though Falcos Dair... >_>

 

[VietGeek]

TL's Uair breaks though Falcos Dair... >_>

Zomg, screw Marth, I'm using Toon Link against Falcos now! =O

 

[TLMarth]

well yeah it does have more priority.
Still have to be careful in case they bait it.

 

[Trifroze]

I wonder what moves overpriorize Toon Link's uair btw? Are there actually any? For me it's always either only the uair that hits or then my uair and opponents dair, but opponent is never the only one that hits. Not even Ganondorf's thunder boot.

 

[Stoo99]

Are you sure you can crouch under the shdl?

 

[vbdood1337]

If they don't SHDL totally perfectly I'm pretty sure you can crouch under it, but if they do it perfectly (the 2nd laser comes out without the shooting animation) I think it will hit you. I'm not sure, I don't play against that many falcos.

 

[Sosuke]

Cant your shield just deflect the lasers?

 

[VietGeek]

Cant your shield just deflect the lasers?

It just makes them dissolve into nothingness. =/

The first SHDL passes through your head, then the second one hits you in the eye IIRC. Depending on how low they shoot it, you can either run through it, Hero's Shield camp, or be forced to approach via walking and shielding.

For Counterpicks, Delfino and Rainbow is sexy. I prefer Delfino since the end of Rainbow Cruise starts getting ******** for both players. <_< Both Falco and TL kill mostly vertically or via gimps so the Counterpicks just counter Falco's recovery.

Ban Final Destination definitely.

You cannot crouch down to stop silent lasers by the way. You can however block it via standing. But be careful since the silent laser is lagless so they can follow up with anything.

 

[Sosuke]

SHDL is like SHDA huh? =P
btw why don't we just pick Rainbow as a counterpick for like 90% of the cast? anyone whos recovery isn't as amazing as TL's would have a disadvantage there to some point right? ^_^
Its hard to tell if its going to be a silent laser though. I assume thats what Falcos go for every time, but they'd have to be pretty good to pull it off consistently on command. =P

 

[vbdood1337]

You can crouch down to stop silent lasers by the way.

I just tested, this is not true. A silent laser will hit you in the head (over your shield) if you are crouched down. If you spam crouch so your shield covers more ground, that will stop it. You will still be pushed backwards if you are hit in the shield. EDIT: Nevermind that striked part, a silent laser will hit you no matter what. Right above your shield directly in the eyes. So, even crouch spamming won't help you.

 

[Sosuke]

I just tested, this is not true. A silent laser will hit you in the head (over your shield) if you are crouched down. If you spam crouch so your shield covers more ground, that will stop it. You will still be pushed backwards if you are hit in the shield.

I'm pretty sure thats what he meant. ^^;

 

[vbdood1337]

I'm pretty sure thats what he meant. ^^;

I actually just edited my post. You will be hit by a silent laser no matter what.

 

[Sosuke]

I actually just edited my post. You will be hit by a silent laser no matter what.

Even if you dont crouch?

 

[vbdood1337]

Even if you dont crouch?

Yes, even if you don't crouch. Falco is still partly in the air when he's firing it, so it just BARELY goes over your shield. Pretty annoying, but good thing its not super-easy to do :D

 

[Sosuke]

Yes, even if you don't crouch. Falco is still partly in the air when he's firing it, so it just BARELY goes over your shield. Pretty annoying, but good thing its not super-easy to do :D

Wow Falcos gay. D=

 

[VietGeek]

Wow, silent laser is lame. xD

I can pull it off somewhat, still highly situational for the Falco.

 

[Sosuke]

Wow, silent laser is lame. xD

I can pull it off somewhat, still highly situational cheap for the Falco.

>_>
<_<
>_>
what?

But yeah, I can do it only sometimes mid-match. @_@

 

[vbdood1337]

It's actually easier for me if I SHDL it, lol.

 

[Ezkl]

What about that broken chaingrab of his? that can give toon link some problems

 

[Blad01]

Hell you TL users ^^

This week it's Toon Link's match-up in Falco board, so if you could participate, you would be welcome

> http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197037

 

[Shy Guy 86]

What about that broken chaingrab of his? that can give toon link some problems

If done properly can deal up to 40(60 with the gatling combo?) but can be escaped if not done properly

 

[Asdioh]

Hell you TL users ^^

That's rude.

All I have to contribute to the Falco discussion is that Kirby can short hop quadruple laser with Falco's power.

I think no more need be said.

 

[VietGeek]

I believe this match-up was asked to be rediscussed.

As such, I have bumped it. Falco mains...please educate us of how more amazing you have become since last August. <_<

 

[ftl]

Well, let's see. SHDL is still the same; the height of the second laser can be as low as that of a standing, grounded laser and can be anything above that, so if there's a way to lazer you in the face above your shield then we can do that. So I think we still outcamp you, though perhaps on stages that aren't flat you can turn that around.

If you're worried about the reflector as an attack, as you were in the first iteration of the discussion, just remember that the lag on it is pretty horrid, and it doesn't have a hitbox on the way back to Falco. So if you bait that on the ground and shield (or spotdodge or space out of range), you get a free attack or grab. A bit harder to punish if Falco does it in the air, because he can still move while doing it, but still, if you can figure out how to bait it that'll give you an advantage. Falco shouldn't let you do that, but if he's spamming reflector against TL's projectiles...

More later.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

i<3HyRo.

Well placed arrows can gimp the phantasm pretty easily. Firebird is easily punishable with a Dair. I think T. Link escapes the chain grab pretty early but there's always the Dthrow > Dair to be wary of. But yeah, Falco's going to play super campy and reflect what you throw at him if you do it at a distance. Midrange is probably Falco's weakest spot on the ground. T. Link's aerials are significantly better than Falco's. Everything I've said has been pretty obvious :/


I don't actually have much to contribute other than fanboy-isms for HyRo . . . .

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

upB pretty much always counters phantasm. i think all your aerials outprioritize our upB.

bait the reflector and punish it, dont be afraid of silent lasers as its hard to pull out consistantly.

utilt can also combo into pretty much everything, also an arrow laying on the ground blocks lasers if theyre silent and almost silent.