Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #6: Falco (REDISCUSS)

[copacetic]

Be really aggressive, get to mid/close range and have fun with z-air. Don't be afraid to use projectiles, since if you're doing it right (use them in the air) the reflections won't hit you and the reflector is very punishable.

If you DI his d-smash and f-smash (I think) down, you can z-air the ledge as you fly away. As long as you stay near the middle of the stage, you've taken away two of his kill moves, since if you're getting hit by one of them it should be fairly obvious.

 

[Zorro.cL]

When he's out from the stage you MUST gimp him, that's the best way to win a falco... arrow phantasms, boomerang firebirds, basically edgeguard. ShUair if you do it correctly it pwns, since falcos really enjoy spamming dair.
Personally more than racking up dmg and then go for a kill I put a lot of pressure to get him out from the stage, then he's dead.

 

[Power of Slash]

idk if it's much but I'll share some input in here.

Against Falco, Spaced Zairs are your best friend, though really I'm not sure if it's the Falco's I face, but don't be scared by his Reflector. Simply because Falco CAN reflect your projectiles doesn't neccesarily tell you to not use any at all, infact what I love to do vs. Falco when I'm in CGing percent is to projectile spam the hell out of them. This puts the falco in an awkward spot, because this neccesitates his use for a reflector when instead he would really like to get in there and do damage with that CG or chainspike. Similar to how Snake's like to damage themselves with explosives so that the Falco doesn't chainspike for the easy gimp, This is how the projectile spam applies here.

Past CG percent I usually like to get 'just' out of range of his reflector, and if used to ward off proceed with Airdodge -> Zair -> and follow up at close range.

As mentioned before do whatever you can to get the falco off stage. Dsmash gimps are... ideal, but no Falco is going to really be 'that' close for you to accopmlish this. The ideal way to get Falco offstage is throws if you're able to get a grab in. If Falco is on ledge-level with the stage, proceed to throw rangs, shoot arrows, anything you can do to stop the phantasm and force him to use that Fire... Bird? yeah. Once you get him in the situation where he has to use fire bird, stage spiking is an easy task. simply run off and Bair. If the falco's not recovering directly up, a simple ledge grab works since Falco has AWFUL Diagonal recovery.

As mentioned his Chainspike isn't too much to worry about, but most falcos know how to gimp afterwards which brings Camping until that is no longer of concern.

Falco's Lasers > TL's like... everything. Safest approach is with airdodges -> Zair. Do NOT Let the Falco get anywhere near what would be long range. He has so many options at that point that TL just won't overcome until the Falco makes a mistake. At long range Falco WILL use that reflector on top of Phantasms and Lazers. It's absolutely nightmareish to play a defensive game vs. this character. Aggressive but careful play is what this matchup requires.

I would most definately ban Japes against any Falco user in this situation, but that's just me.

I hope this helps a bit. Might be just repeating what people have said. Right now I'm replaying my bouts with Kismet to the best of my ability, and reviewing what I did right and wrong, but it's pretty hard replaying something from a month ago.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Toon Link vs Falco is a pretty tough matchup, I just get the general idea that Toon Link has to really use his range and aerial maneuverability well in order to win since falco has a lot of gay top tier stuff

 

[Drig786]

i really dont like Falco, best way for me to match him is spacing Zairs and i make sure im not in long range from falco for projectile game.

 

[urdailywater]

It's a weird matchup. =/

it's hard to outcamp Falco because of his pew pew deflector. I'd say throw bombs, a LOT. I don't think that the reflector can reflect those, but I've never seen it do it at least.

Bair works well here seeing as he falls down fast making him easier to combo. ALso, zair for spacing, and try to keep close so the lasers don't hit.

 

[copacetic]

The reflector can reflect the bombs, but if you throw them at his feet the reflector won't do him much good. Also if you SH a bomb toss and he goes to reflect it, it will go over your head when you're on the ground so take advantage of his lag for a free hit

 

[Vlade]

I hardly use the reflector against toon link.

I practically live in my shield instead. Toon link is too 'agile' to be using the reflector against.

 

[VietGeek]

I hardly use the reflector against toon link.

I practically live in my shield instead. Toon link is too 'agile' to be using the reflector against.

But apparently not agile enough to be using the shield against. =P

I'd probably see this match as a mix between MK/Marth vs. Falco. Falco can play VERY gay, and he will probably always win if he plays very gay [assuming theoretical equally-skilled players]. He can CG you then edgetrap for dumb damage, which is what a good player will do.

The only saving grace of TL is that he like MK has some legitimate chains and good speed that he can keep an offensive early on. He also has projectiles, in particularly bombs that will allow him to apply some small bits of projectile pressure back at Falco, something Marth and MK lack.

However Falco is pretty good at running away. He can phantasm away from attempts at ledgetraps, lasers are a hassle, if used correctly, Reflector also covers most options from the front, including a well-spaced zair. However Reflector can also be "reflected" back by a melee attack, and has ending lag, so it's not exactly a great wall out on TL, but again creates another barrier and factor he needs to keep aware of.

Both characters are relatively easy to gimp, Falco only has a slight lead in getting KOs, but he has all the tools to keep the match in HIS pacing. While TL lacks the range MK and Marth have that can allow them to overwhelm Falco once they get in his lines of defense.

So it's hands-down his advantage. 60:40 Falco applies more of a definite advantage than 55:45, which kinda says "Err, TL has a great chance against Falco! It's almost even!"

Feel free...to correct. This might be the summary.

Just maybe.

 

[Power of Slash]

I was thinking more about this matchup today actually. and I couldn't help thinking but...

Even if the reflector reflects the projectiles, Is it really that big of a deal to shy away from? I haven't put this into testing much at all, but as you said VietGeek, TL doesn't really have the range to overwhelm Falco once inside his defensive lines, but can we bring an overwhelming offense of projectiles that the Falco would have to reflect(I mean dodging TL's projectiles isn't that much of a hard task) to knock the falco out of his flow and an easier approach than having to stay out of range of this and that?

That reflector does have a bit of lag, and they wouldn't try to SHDL in a rain of projectiles...

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is correct, it could very well be enormously flawed but if given the oppurtunity, can we pressure the Falco to have to abuse that reflector and take advantage?

thoughts?

 

[Alzi]

Falco out camps us and when we get close they nair into a combo or grab.

>_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_>
Falco is awsome to use but annoying to vs.

Zair, Bomb, Boomerang, Nair, and Bair is probally going to be the most useful to us.
Edit: Oh and we should be jumping like crazy since all those dam lazers.

 

[Tiersr4Queers]

i hate there **** shl most falco users spam it 2 make u approach

 

[UncleSam]

Ugh I played A Falco just now and he constantly SHDL, I mostly stayed on the ground for this game, since SHDL keep you grounded, but baiting does work, SHDL approach if your standing misses your head just keep tempo until he comes into your range and counter his attacks and punish his reflector... he didn't gimp me once

I was thinking more about this matchup today actually. and I couldn't help thinking but...

Even if the reflector reflects the projectiles, Is it really that big of a deal to shy away from? I haven't put this into testing much at all, but as you said VietGeek, TL doesn't really have the range to overwhelm Falco once inside his defensive lines, but can we bring an overwhelming offense of projectiles that the Falco would have to reflect(I mean dodging TL's projectiles isn't that much of a hard task) to knock the falco out of his flow and an easier approach than having to stay out of range of this and that?

That reflector does have a bit of lag, and they wouldn't try to SHDL in a rain of projectiles...

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is correct, it could very well be enormously flawed but if given the oppurtunity, can we pressure the Falco to have to abuse that reflector and take advantage?

thoughts?

start to approach, arrow, stop, approach more, arrow, stop
when you don't move your shield is up and any arrows that are reflected back to you hit your shield. When your in Zairing range space wisely

 

[Dekillsage]

I main Falco and played someone who mains toonlink. I have learned that...
1)Utilt ***** Falco
2)zair spacing and approaches are ridiculous
3)IF i do a smash attack and he blocks it I get ***** By:tilts,Grabs,Fsmash etc
There's probably more but I can't even remember...
Questions:1) Can TL's Bomb interrupt a chaingrab?
2)What stage is toonlink's best for beating falco?
The match up is 55:45 in Falcos favor but in my opinion it can be 50:50 on certain stages.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Lylat cruise is the best stage for tink to beat falco. The worst is falco's home aka Jungle japes.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm going to move this to 60:40 since Falco outplays TL's greatest BARLW strength , is a better damage racker (all his dthrows are guaranteed to a certain % lol), and limits TL to be more ground-based, and we know how amazing his ground game is. <_<

Falco basically controls the entire pace of the match, or at least has the opportunity to.

Any concerns should be addressed now or forever hold your peace.

 

[fezzmaster]

Yea im super late to this topic but i wanted to add that you should ban Frigate because when it changes to that V shaped place Falco can sit in the middle and shdl you so hard its impossible to do anything, it puts him at the right height to hit you in the head and the second shot follows so fast that it hits you again before your hero shield is back up.

sorry about posting this 2 months late.

 

[Sosuke]

If it's to months late, don't post it. =/

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Since this popped up, it wouldn't be bad to mention this now, something that Falco has over TL now.

Not sure if you remember this, but Falco has a Laserlock set up against TL on Pictochat by ending the CG with a Boosted Pivot Grab that carries Falco to the edge and after the Dthrow TL proceeds to "splat" into the stage making it pretty easy to do a LL set up going. The splat thing is techable, but difficult to tech if I recall.

Anyway, that same principal can be applied to any stage. Apprently, whenever Falco Dthrows TL while standing at the very edge of the stage (facing away from the ledge) TL does something weird where his knockback is greatly reduced. This causes him to splat onto the stage. And this works on any stage, but only Pictochat can you get the laserlock to work. Normally TL we cannot laser lock, so instead of firing multiple lasers all we have to do is fire one laser after the Dthrow which will force TL to get up and then we can proceed to get a guranteed Gatling Combo (Dash attack > Upsmash). This gets close to 70% of damage.

In short, Falco can CG > Boost Pivot Grab > Dthrow > Buffered Laser > Gatling Combo. But to avoid all of that laser > gatling combo stuff you have to tech the landing.

While this isn't common practice, it's something to take note of.

 

[§witch]

Nevermind.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Nevermind?...

Eh, whatever...while this is here, I say 60-40 Falco. Possibly 55-45

 

[Pho]

Got rocked by a Falco at the tournament I was just at. The one Falco says he grabs a lot to refresh his Bair. Bair is a scary move. Also, he barely used his reflector against me. So either I wasn't applying enough spam for him to bait it, or it wasn't needed.

Falco main's opinion on this please.

 

[DCStyle]

Laser laser laser side b. Laser laser laser side b.

wtf.

Worst match up ever.

The only way I can possibly stand a chance against a falco is by going straight in with bombs, not being afraid to suicide bomb both of us. :|

 

[NeoCrono]

Not a fun match up
even if you can get inside a falco, you have to be afraid grabs. And whats to stop them from just side bing away...... laser.....laser......laser...... not fun to deal with lol. Also if falco is trying to spike you. remember that your up air has more priority then his d-air.
but its 60-40 falco

 

[WindMajor]

If you get in too close, you'll get grabbed somehow, and if you are too far, you'll get lasered. The safest place to be is in the air with a bomb in hand, and a second bomb in your pocket. He can't reflect anything if you are high up in the air. He can bair you, but i'm sure an air dodge will save you.

This match up is just flat out camping. TL can outcamp if he full hops/double jumps a lot and spams bombs and boomerangs at Falco. At short hop distance, SHDL will dominate. Once off the stage, it's TL's time to shine. Gimping is too easy, but we have to be careful of Falco's spiking side-b.

 

[Power of Slash]

SHDL Camp > Us Camp.

We can't afford to camp Falco @_@, It's not. really. profitable. I mean. on top of the SHDL, if you do get a projectile out there, lagless landing + Reflector. I mean... gaaaah.... We just can't beat that.

 

[DCStyle]

If you get in too close, you'll get grabbed somehow, and if you are too far, you'll get lasered. The safest place to be is in the air with a bomb in hand, and a second bomb in your pocket. He can't reflect anything if you are high up in the air. He can bair you, but i'm sure an air dodge will save you.

This match up is just flat out camping. TL can outcamp if he full hops/double jumps a lot and spams bombs and boomerangs at Falco. At short hop distance, SHDL will dominate. Once off the stage, it's TL's time to shine. Gimping is too easy, but we have to be careful of Falco's spiking side-b.

Uhm.

TL: Full hop triple arrow
Falco : Side steps, short hops, reflector, or side steps, short hops, double laser, or full hops triple laser.

-.-

 

[Sosuke]

You can't beat Falco with arrows AT ALL. You have to depend a lot more on bombs and boomerangs at closer range.

But projectiles against Falco is just like, ugh. >_<

 

[TLMSheikant]

Meh if u cant outcamp falco because of his reflector ur not doing it right. Also we have a small amount of time after a full hop to come down after a bomb with boomerang and he will eat both while hes SHDL'ing. Its hard to explain this matchup. U just have to be creative with full hops, bombs, fast fall zairs from a full hop and boomerang. Its definetely falcos advantage tho. But its not as hard as u guys think it is. Oh and btw nair, zair and arrows outprioritize illusion so falco shouldnt be using it much if u do it right.

 

[Violynk]

Meh I find the matchup tougher than most. Toon Link can't out camp falco so you're forced to approach him but you still have to space enough to an extent so you don't get grabbed. Nair and Zair help at times but I feel gimping is the best way to deal with falcos =/ Try to CP non-flat stages like SV and FD helps too. I just space to an extent where I'm not out of reach to pressure him with ariels or too far to where he can just camp with SHDL -_- Tbh I'd say it's 60-40 in the space pelican's favor...

 

[droughboi]

Had a buttload of friendlies on saturday against my friend and Idk, falco is just annoying against toonlink. one thing that they always do is jab>grab wich works alot of the time. so when going in close, watch for the jab. more than likely a grab is comming your way. Another thing I noticed when I was fighting my friend (completly badass falco player) is that they might aproach with SHDL then grab and reverse it or w/e. it happened to me so many times, there wasnt anything I could do. So annoying. And for the falcos that like to camp, that immediate phantasasm gets spammed and has less landing lag then a normal one. My friend tries to use it for mind games by auto canceling the side-b so that it goes like 2 inches instead of across the world.
the one thing that a falco cant do very well is mix up their play style, making them sort of easy to read, just hard to get around.

 

[Dalub]

.-...............................................

 

[QUIVO]

Falco counters us, i swear

 

[Lobos]

Falco counters us, i swear

I kinda agree to this as well >_>

 

[Chip.]

I have this really amazing spacing tactic that makes Falco's shine benefit us and helps us approach.

I think it might be even if you don't get CGd a lot and Bair combo him instead.

 

[QUIVO]

Hm, is your strategy to bait the shine? The Falcos I have played don't really throw out the shine often, so it's kinda hard to know exactly when they're going to throw it. I just know it's usually when I throw a bomb.

I find bair combos hard against Falcos. You can get the first hit, then they land and shield while you try to bair again. They turn around, grab to 40 %, and spike. It also doesn't help that they love to spot dodge and roll, and/or jab to grab.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

I kinda agree to this as well >_>

Thirded. <_<

 

[copacetic]

Don't DI down and away on his d-throw. Falco can just d-throw -> jab -> laserlock if you do that. You can tech the jab but its hard