nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
Luigi can WD into stand and have any of his grounded options too, with way less telegraph and by doing a simple wavedash, not being frame-tight at hydrocrawl. His Dsmash is frame 6.I mean, this logic makes no sense. There is almost zero commitment between when squirtle has to start the dsmash and when the hydroplane momentum starts. Just doing the shellshift puts the opponent in your immediate threat zone at a great distance, if they don't respond by either getting out of the way addressing your encroach directly (shield, beating you with an attack, jumping, crouching, etc, depending on what they think you'll do) then they risk taking a hit. And squirtle has a do nothing option, just do an empty shellshift then crouch, and all his options return. Or wavedash out of it. Can also just empty jump across the stage out of it, luigi can't do that. So if they commit in response to you doing nothing you get a nice chance of winning that interaction, even if it's just in terms of stage positioning. Calling a sliding dsmash a frame 38 move is like [couldn't find a comparison because squirtle is a weird ******, like the only character that gets to approach such long range with any aerial and (almost?) any grounded move].
Anyway idk who was complaining about dsmash except the squirtle mains, I basically just said squirtle's dsmash on squirtle isn't comparable to ROB/Bowser's/whoever else's because theirs are almost strictly immobile.
Yes, the Dsmash isn't 1:1 comparable but if you're letting Squirtles do a whole bunch of shellshift trickery and letting them approach whenever they want then rethink the matchup. If there's pressure on them it gets mighty tough to have the stage space or time to do a whole 19 frame startup startup (for jump options only, hydrocrawl is minimum 22).
Not really defending Eisen since I think Lucas is on the whole a very good character, but his Dair is meh once you get counterplay. Not crapping on the move but against a competent opponent you're not gonna see those 3.02 Pink Fresh 4 Dair combos of yore. It's also frame 8 which is a respectable OOS option but beaten by a lot.OBLIGATORY I'M NOT THE BEST PLAYER AND DF KICKS MY *** WARNING. No need to put that every time I post now, right?
Lucas is pretty good. I feel as though you're ignoring his good qualities. He has a great projectile, a ridiculous punish game, a pretty good dash dance with good options out of it, and dair.
What're his cons? bad grab, but he can convert off throws and uthrow still kills. Weak CC(?) could be worse. You say OOS game but I feel as though dair oos converts well enough for the frame data to be a little lacking in that department, and he has the tools to keep from getting locked in shield.
Fair is pretty good imo. sweetspot kills and has good shield pressure (?). Sure the sweetspot requires spacing but its very doable.
Not sure what "tools to keep from getting locked in shield" is tbh. Do you mean his mobility? Because that's good.
Fair is good but it's certainly not a "kill move". Not unless you're chasing people to the top of the blast zone with your double jump. It kills really really late. Nair's last hitbox is 10/143 and Fair's sweetspot is 36/95. Tough to eyeball knockback curves like that but I'm pretty sure Nair is a better kill move. Fair has more range. I don't want to quote any kind of percent since it varies on stage and stage position and whatnot. I dunno.