Tier List Speculation

[nimigoha]

Yeah lol if you have a problem with Squirtle hydroplane Dsmashing you, I feel for you.

Seeing as it's got a minimum of 22 frames of being telegraphed before they even start the Dsmash (7 frames of dashing away before they transition to run, then minimum 15 frames of shellshift but 19 for max distance http://i.imgur.com/zgzvPEK.png) plus 16 frames before the hitbox comes out.

So complain about a frame 38 move. Yes, they can do other stuff out of the shellshift, but regardless of what option they select you shouldn't be standing around waiting to get hit. If you're at the range where hydroplane Dsmash is a possibility you're probably out of range for Hydrograb. So shield and you'll block jump>bubble and hydroplane smashes. If they hydropivot or hydrocrawl into standing grab then it's something to look at but I've never actually seen a Squirtle do it.

Hydroplane Dsmash is not that great unless your opponent is being braindead in neutral and letting you do whatever you want. Not even going to mention that you have pretty strict timings.

Luigi's WD>Dsmash is faster and better IMO.

 

[dirtboy345]

I don't think Pika/ROB/Bowser can slide halfway across the stage in the start-up of their moves... and keep sliding into the hitbox duration
also doesn't it still combo at lowish percents? And of course you'll still get stage positioning at higher percents

I love how everyone acts like sliding negates any poor frame data of dsmash. Like **** what is Luigi supposed to be with quick smashes and being able to slide as well? Must be the best character in the game

 

[eideeiit]

In a few years, when the meta has developed, Luigi rules the lands and the era is known as "20YAH-YAH", I'll come back here and laugh.

 

[_Chrome]

In a few years, when the meta has developed, Luigi rules the lands and the era is known as "20YAH-YAH", I'll come back here and laugh.

The day 20YAH-YAH arrives is the day I quit PM.


Jk. But pls pls no. I can't handle the weej.

 

[Laudandus]

But the worst offender for a move that combos into itself? Weak knee into strong knee get that outta here, crikey.

This is definitely 100% accurate, change this pls

 

[shairn]

I will say that Bowser's jump timing makes it a ***** and a half to wavedash with him which does frustrate me when I play around with him. That's probably my only complaint about the issue thus far

He has the same jumpsquat as Falco IIRC, 5 frames. Besides, I'm pretty sure his jumpsquat is the least of his worries.

 

[Ripple]

Lol Ripple Where were you when 3.6F dropped and Squirtle lost a reasonable dsmash because it combo'd, so it was changed to be like a get off me dsmash a la pika/rob/bowser, without the speed needed to function as a get off me move.

I never said I agreed with those changes. I also didn't like how Umbreon basically said it was changed because smash moves shouldn't be combo moves when one of his character is the biggest violator of that philosophy

 

[didds]

As far as ability to put hitboxes where you want them squirtle has a pretty potent dsmash when paired with his Wd and turnaround shenanigans, but I also thinks it's use is less intuitive and obvious than most dsmashes.

The nice thing is you don't have to worry about cc crap so much when catching someone out of dd footsies. Some people seem uncomfortable with hard commitments in neutral and would prefer to poke and zone all day but some characters need to commit in neutral to get things started, see luigi, yoshi, pika

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I love how everyone acts like sliding negates any poor frame data of dsmash. Like **** what is Luigi supposed to be with quick smashes and being able to slide as well? Must be the best character in the game

shhh don't say that too loudly or the luigi mains and nausicaa are going to come in here and agree with you

because it's true

He has the same jumpsquat as Falco IIRC, 5 frames. Besides, I'm pretty sure his jumpsquat is the least of his worries.

no he doesn't
https://drive.google.com/folderview...&usp=sharing&tid=0Bxqp5x1DVpsPdTNpZkZGT3hsS1k

bowser has six(or seven?) frames

also Strong Badam @someobdy else who makes the game
is this frame data repository correct with regards to fox's jumpsquat? because here fox's jumpsquat is listed as 2 frames, but multiple people in this thread have said that fox's is 3 frames, or is "jumpsquat" calculated by adding the first actionable frame in the air?

 

[Ripple]

Fox has a 3 frame jump squat. Which means he 's crouching for 3 frames and becomes airborne on frame 4. You have a 4 frame js? Airborne on frame 5

 

[Life]

Some of the confusion may be caused by Melee's short hop bug (the one that makes the input window smaller than intended); short hopping with Melee Fox is 2 frames.

 

[nimigoha]

This is definitely 100% accurate, change this pls

"Grats on mis-timing your move that has 17 active frames why don't you try that again? Oh you hit? Okay they're dead, great job"

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Fox has a 3 frame jump squat. Which means he 's crouching for 3 frames and becomes airborne on frame 4. You have a 4 frame js? Airborne on frame 5

then what the **** is the frame data telling me

 

[PlateProp]

then what the **** is the frame data telling me

Melee players dont know how to count

 

[Oracle]

I love how everyone acts like sliding negates any poor frame data of dsmash. Like **** what is Luigi supposed to be with quick smashes and being able to slide as well? Must be the best character in the game

>luigi dsmash
>poor frame data

 

[shairn]

They're referring to Squirtle, and saying that if squirtle dsmash is good despite its bad frame data because of sliding, then Luigi who has good frame data and sliding must be beast. Which isn't that off the mark if you ask me.

 

[Farquaad]

>luigi dsmash
>poor frame data

I'm glad you agree that Luigi has incredible frame data despite sliding really far

Which makes the argument that Squirtle has to have the worst tech roll in the game because he slides (when Luigi has a great tech roll) pretty silly as well...as if that wasn't already obvious

But I digress

 

[Eisen]

Can we talk about Lucas again for a second?

I just.

Why did this character lose his main good trait simply because he was designed poorly/with too many strengths and now his only leg up on characters like Fox/Falco is DJC and air-wobbly shenanigans?

His fair is just horribly impossible to sweetspot consistently with and compared to other characters with similar moves, there's no point in even using it honestly. If it's gonna be tiny, at least let its shield damage be somewhat scary when perfectly spaced. Also I'm starting to believe having multihits is not a significant advantage in this game. The cons outweigh the pros most of the time.

 

[Oracle]

Ugh i forgot squirtle was in this game

 

[Strong Badam]

also Strong Badam @someobdy else who makes the game
is this frame data repository correct with regards to fox's jumpsquat? because here fox's jumpsquat is listed as 2 frames, but multiple people in this thread have said that fox's is 3 frames, or is "jumpsquat" calculated by adding the first actionable frame in the air?

Why don't you check in-game? His jumpsquat is 3 frames, and has been since forever. Your source is wrong.

 

[zen-bz-]

Can we talk about Lucas again for a second?

I just.

Why did this character lose his main good trait simply because he was designed poorly/with too many strengths and now his only leg up on characters like Fox/Falco is DJC and air-wobbly shenanigans?

His fair is just horribly impossible to sweetspot consistently with and compared to other characters with similar moves, there's no point in even using it honestly. If it's gonna be tiny, at least let its shield damage be somewhat scary when perfectly spaced. Also I'm starting to believe having multihits is not a significant advantage in this game. The cons outweigh the pros most of the time.

I'd like some more elaboration on this.
What is his "main good trait" that he lost? (I could just be missing context like an idiot but I'd still like clarification) What are the cons of multihits that outweigh the pros? How would you "fix" Lucas (implying that he's broken that he needs fixing)? And are those advantages Lucas has against Fox/Falco make him seem as outmatched as you state?
Not saying I disagree, but if you're gonna complain about balance specificity is pretty important.

 

[Boiko]

I'd like some more elaboration on this.
What is his "main good trait" that he lost? (I could just be missing context like an idiot but I'd still like clarification)

A magnet that was +7 on shield.

 

[nimigoha]

A magnet that was +7 on shield.

I think Zhduken knows, he's just expecting Eisen to make claims that are backed up.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I've come up with a solution for squirtle
Squirtle mains hate that squirtle sucks
And everyone else hates squirtle and hates that he doesn't suck
Therefore, remove squirtle from the game and everyone will be happy

 

[MLGF]

Let's just replace him with Blastoise

 

[nimigoha]

People hate that Bowser sucks too.

Take half of Squirtle's moveset and put it on Bowser, give Bowser Squirtle's mobility and ATs, everyone is happy.

#Blastoise2015

 

[Jamble]

He has the same jumpsquat as Falco IIRC, 5 frames. Besides, I'm pretty sure his jumpsquat is the least of his worries.

Bowser and Dedede's jump squats are 6 frames (outliers in the cast). It actually does make a significant difference in wavedash timing. Could also be that I'm used to playing Samus, Tink, and Roy, which have 3, 3, and 4 frame jump squats.

You misunderstand why it's been brought up though, it's not about buffing Bowser so much as making him feel a little less awkward. Nobody's going to have their heart broken if it's left alone really, but it might be nice.

 

[Beastx]

Bowser and Dedede's jump squats are 6 frames (outliers in the cast). It actually does make a significant difference in wavedash timing. Could also be that I'm used to playing Samus, Tink, and Roy, which have 3, 3, and 4 frame jump squats.

You misunderstand why it's been brought up though, it's not about buffing Bowser so much as making him feel a little less awkward. Nobody's going to have their heart broken if it's left alone really, but it might be nice.

I was wondering why wavedashing with him and dedede always felt a bit awkward. This actually is pretty annoying.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The almighty DrinkingFood, once again, is choosing not to enlighten us plebs about why we are wrong. Since there was no Plate to respond to, instead we get this:

I've come up with a solution for squirtle
Squirtle mains hate that squirtle sucks
And everyone else hates squirtle and hates that he doesn't suck
Therefore, remove squirtle from the game and everyone will be happy

On a more serious note, not all Squirtle mains think he sucks (bottom 10). But that doesn't mean there aren't problems that can't be fixed. Tech roll and downsmash being the 2 big ones. Down tilt is a personal frustration of mine. Bubble may very well be too far in the other direction, but I have also been told it isn't as good as I think it is. Until proven otherwise, I think of him as lower mid, above bottom 10, but not in the enormous "mid tier". Has the potential to be upper mid, but so do a lot of characters (lol pm tier lists so fraudulent).

The amount of salt this character receives is insane though. I can see it, but it still is insane.

 

[zen-bz-]

I think Zhduken knows, he's just expecting Eisen to make claims that are backed up.

Eh, part right. I did want him to respond but I wasn't thinking of mag when I posted because he was mainly talking about fair and multihits. I was referring to something along those lines. But yeah, mag was pretty important. Apart from mag I'd still like to hear what else he has to say.

 

[CORY]

I was wondering why wavedashing with him and dedede always felt a bit awkward. This actually is pretty annoying.

When ganon went from 6frame to 5frame my ability to wd with him grew exponentially. It was utterly ridiculous.

 

[Beastx]

When ganon went from 6frame to 5frame my ability to wd with him grew exponentially. It was utterly ridiculous.

I guess it makes sense though, If we had Bowser on ice, he might actually be high tier!

 

[Jamble]

Yeah I see good Bowser players using his WD and stuff like that consistently, but the timing is wonky enough that it almost feels like relearning the technique, where with other characters' variance, it's an adjustment but less like having to relearn the tech.

Again, I'm not complaining about it, insisting on a change to suit my scrubbiness, nor am I saying a frame of jumpsquat time is the solution to Bowser's woes or a big priority for the PMDT. But it's a reasonable quality-of-life tweak most people could probably get behind for Bowser and Dedede that'd make them feel a bit less awkward to pick up.

 

[Eisen]

I'd like some more elaboration on this.
What is his "main good trait" that he lost? (I could just be missing context like an idiot but I'd still like clarification) What are the cons of multihits that outweigh the pros? How would you "fix" Lucas (implying that he's broken that he needs fixing)? And are those advantages Lucas has against Fox/Falco make him seem as outmatched as you state?
Not saying I disagree, but if you're gonna complain about balance specificity is pretty important.

The main good trait was pressure, which he's still pretty good at, but there are a few things that throw it off. Multihits being one of them. Maybe I'm missing something, but based on everything I've seen/played, it's super easy to get out of his moves--magnet for example: If you simply hold away/up, it's pretty universally easy to get out of. Not saying it should be super hard or impossible or like Lucas can't just follow them, but the move isn't doing work for anyone besides the fact it's ever so slightly disjointed and can be held for varying periods.

Even still, it's beaten by swords (that's a given though so shrug) and even though it's a main combo tool, whether or not it works can depend on a few frames where the move have no active hitbox, which means even thoughtless bum-rushes have a chance of completely beating the move. Now, that's more of a fundamental flaw of the character I wouldn't want to see changed per se. I'm just illustrating that despite it being relied on as Lucas' main combo tool, it can fail to do its job because of its traits--it's not all-powerful.

Also, it can be CC grabbed by at least some of the cast (I don't know all who), and CC smashed by other characters. Couple that with the fact that magnet and nair both send in the opposite direction with just a tiny misspace error, and you get a character while, good when he works, has times where the amount of calculation needed to perceive a hit confirm is just impossible. I'm still fine with all that. I mean I guess it'd be nice if magnet's outer hitbox were a little bigger and the inner hitbox were a tad smaller or just removed? Hell, I'd take a larger release outer hitbox so it was less likely for an opponent to just press up to get out of it. Just give him something to make his problems worth it.

I could go on for hours about how Lucas' OOS game, CC options, neutral, dash dance, grab (don't change that tho), and even now possibly his pressure options are just worse than a certain character we all know. Yeah, he has DJC and movement options, and when you do play him right he looks broken as ****. But the fact is that fair's level of precision required for a reward is just stupid when the character already is situational/variable as crap.

And hell, I don't even play against people who know all that much about DI/SDI/Lucas and they still seem to get out of moves a little too often for my tastes. My problem with that isn't about the move not doing all the work for me, but the fact that I have almost zero control over whether or not the move is successful due to CC/SDI. Best I can do is perfectly space magnet so at least I don't get grabbed, but then there's moves like Fox's CC upsmash that make me not want to use the move at all. I don't like being punished for landing a hit and doing what my character is supposed to do (and succeeding). It isn't fun. It would be like if Samus' missiles could be CC'd all the time and you could be foreseeably be smashed in the face for landing a missile.

TL;DR All this is just to say that, basically, Lucas is finnicky and his lack of reward for slightly misspacing shouldn't get so drastic and/or his options should be more potent when they DO work. Sorry for getting so rambley.

 

[KinGly]

I could go on for hours about how Lucas' OOS game, CC options, neutral, dash dance, grab (don't change that tho), and even now possibly his pressure options are just worse than a certain character we all know.

Its Fox. Where's my gold star and cookie?

 

[_Chrome]

EDIT: I tried giving you a gold star and cookie but my mobile won't let me. Can't waste data!

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Magnet was +7! That's crazy...

Lucas has the best shield pressure imo. He has the mag to DJC fair, he has crossup dair/nair, more variety with mag -> mag -> DJC fair. Options out of it are worse though, namely grab. But you don't see this causing problems with Falco.


The cc grab claim seems iffy, but I am going to check before I flat out call it wrong...

 

[Eisen]

Magnet was +7! That's crazy...

Lucas has the best shield pressure imo. He has the mag to DJC fair, he has crossup dair/nair, more variety with mag -> mag -> DJC fair. Options out of it are worse though, namely grab. But you don't see this causing problems with Falco.


The cc grab claim seems iffy, but I am going to check before I flat out call it wrong...

I did the CC grab with both Jigglypuff and Fox at varying %s, so yeah. I doubt any tether grab characters can do it, but I even did it with D3 so it's possible with fatties.

Not saying Lucas has no tools, but just that his pros don't really outweigh his cons imo.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah lol if you have a problem with Squirtle hydroplane Dsmashing you, I feel for you.

Seeing as it's got a minimum of 22 frames of being telegraphed before they even start the Dsmash (7 frames of dashing away before they transition to run, then minimum 15 frames of shellshift but 19 for max distance http://i.imgur.com/zgzvPEK.png) plus 16 frames before the hitbox comes out.

So complain about a frame 38 move. Yes, they can do other stuff out of the shellshift, but regardless of what option they select you shouldn't be standing around waiting to get hit. If you're at the range where hydroplane Dsmash is a possibility you're probably out of range for Hydrograb. So shield and you'll block jump>bubble and hydroplane smashes. If they hydropivot or hydrocrawl into standing grab then it's something to look at but I've never actually seen a Squirtle do it.

Hydroplane Dsmash is not that great unless your opponent is being braindead in neutral and letting you do whatever you want. Not even going to mention that you have pretty strict timings.

Luigi's WD>Dsmash is faster and better IMO.

I mean, this logic makes no sense. There is almost zero commitment between when squirtle has to start the dsmash and when the hydroplane momentum starts. Just doing the shellshift puts the opponent in your immediate threat zone at a great distance, if they don't respond by either getting out of the way addressing your encroach directly (shield, beating you with an attack, jumping, crouching, etc, depending on what they think you'll do) then they risk taking a hit. And squirtle has a do nothing option, just do an empty shellshift then crouch, and all his options return. Or wavedash out of it. Can also just empty jump across the stage out of it, luigi can't do that. So if they commit in response to you doing nothing you get a nice chance of winning that interaction, even if it's just in terms of stage positioning. Calling a sliding dsmash a frame 38 move is like [couldn't find a comparison because squirtle is a weird ******, like the only character that gets to approach such long range with any aerial and (almost?) any grounded move].
Anyway idk who was complaining about dsmash except the squirtle mains, I basically just said squirtle's dsmash on squirtle isn't comparable to ROB/Bowser's/whoever else's because theirs are almost strictly immobile.

 

[KinGly]

OBLIGATORY I'M NOT THE BEST PLAYER AND DF KICKS MY ASS WARNING. No need to put that every time I post now, right?

Not saying Lucas has no tools, but just that his pros don't really outweigh his cons imo.

Lucas is pretty good. I feel as though you're ignoring his good qualities. He has a great projectile, a ridiculous punish game, a pretty good dash dance with good options out of it, and dair.

What're his cons? bad grab, but he can convert off throws and uthrow still kills. Weak CC(?) could be worse. You say OOS game but I feel as though dair oos converts well enough for the frame data to be a little lacking in that department, and he has the tools to keep from getting locked in shield.

Fair is pretty good imo. sweetspot kills and has good shield pressure (?). Sure the sweetspot requires spacing but its very doable.