Tier List Speculation

[Saproling]

Ivy has a bad my spread and only really beats 3 maybe 5 characters significantly. Most are 60:40s in the others favors a few even all the mostly popular characters beat the **** out of her so she's against the already established meta lowering her value significantly. And no fair isn't fast it's frame 15 and then has to travel most of the time baits fine though its an overrated move.

 

[Jamble]

But why does Ivy have a bad spread? I understand people seem to agree on that, but I'm genuinely asking out of ignorance here. Is it a combination of her floatiness, fragileness, and predictable recovery? Or is it something a little more involved, including frame data on certain moves?

 

[Saproling]

She's fragile and slow she can do some decent damage off of a read but ultimately it's no more than the other person just winning neutral normally which is going to happen more than reads and then they can make reads on you as well.Her defense and neutral just lack oomph she can't aggress her walling has been nerfed, her movement isnt bad but nothing special and she doesn't have much out if it due to slow start up. Overall it's just mediocre or kinda on the weak side most likely the worst OOT options in the game kinda light and floaty so she dies pretty early if she doesn't to just grabbing the edge. Nothing is stand out at best it's a jumbled awkward unintuitive to understand of bad or average and contratidery traits. Ivy is still better designed than the old days and I much prefer how she plays but there are still so many issues.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

She's fragile and slow she can do some decent damage off of a read but ultimately it's no more than the other person just winning neutral normally which is going to happen more than reads and then they can make reads on you as well.her defense and neutral just lack oomph she can't aggress her walling a Been nerfed her movement isnt bad but nothing special and she doesn't have much out if it due to slow start up overall it's just mediocre or kinda on the weak side most likely the worst oot options in the game kinda light and floaty so she dies pretty early od she doesn't to just grabbing the edge nothing is stand out at best it's a jumbled awkward unintuitive to understand of bad or average and contratidery traits she's still better designed than the old days and I much prefer how she plays but there are still so many issues.

Punctuation is a great thing. Just saying

 

[Saproling]

On my phone otherwise I would I got sick after fixing autocorrect.
Should be a bit better now.

 

[Ripple]

I think ivy is a good character and people really undersell her options and overate her weaknesses like recovery. Or maybe I just have DDD complex where anyone looks better than me except bowser

It looks like I could potentially stall with her so I might mess around with her

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

what are the "game design" reasons for not normalizing everyone's jumpsquat to three frames?

 

[Life]

Melee.

Also, it makes a certain amount of aesthetic sense to generally have less-mobile characters have longer jumpsquats, though that tends to screw over Bowser and company so you can't go too far with it.

Also, for new players who have trouble shorthopping on three-frame jumpsquats, having characters with longer jumpsquats lets them focus on other things than making their short hops tighter.

 

[nimigoha]

I'd like all characters to be 3-5, IIRC the only ones with 6 are DDD and Bowser. Just very weird and unique wavedash timing, but I'd like to see the opinions of those who main them.

I don't think everyone should be normalized to the same number, and even if they were to be I would say four, not three, but I think it's a bad idea.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'd like all characters to be 3-5, IIRC the only ones with 6 are DDD and Bowser. Just very weird and unique wavedash timing, but I'd like to see the opinions of those who main them.

I don't think everyone should be normalized to the same number, and even if they were to be I would say four, not three, but I think it's a bad idea.

why

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

i remember when you were like "hey i've been here for 10 months and i understand this game better than some of the 5+ year veterans"

and then you got the apathy that people get from understanding that

let's suffer together.

ivysaur is bottom 5 imo. like ness.

Nimigoha made some good points about the power concentration. I guess I can't look at Ivy and just think "weak", y'know? Good job to the DT for making something like that possible.

Btw, who *is* the Ivy-Snake MU tilted in favor of? [By people's best estimation.] Sothe and Prof is one instance of pretty high level play but is still hard to draw conclusions from. A lot of PM is so hard to make definitive statements about, because you get stuff like "A really good X met a really good Y and neither had played a really good main of that character before, so they're learning on the fly."

 

[CORY]

why

why what? everyone 4 or tighten the spread to be 3-5?

 

[Deleted member]

Nimigoha made some good points about the power concentration. I guess I can't look at Ivy and just think "weak", y'know? Good job to the DT for making something like that possible.

Btw, who *is* the Ivy-Snake MU tilted in favor of? [By people's best estimation.] Sothe and Prof is one instance of pretty high level play but is still hard to draw conclusions from. A lot of PM is so hard to make definitive statements about, because you get stuff like "A really good X met a really good Y and neither had played a really good main of that character before, so they're learning on the fly."

i see you've been gone for a bit too long

if you play snake, ivysaur wins

if you play ivysaur, snake wins

when you play the set, regardless of which character you're playing, you make sure to complain about marth before and after the set.

 

[Saproling]

I think it's evening.

 

[eideeiit]

I think it's evening.

Depends on where you live.

I'd think Babaganoush vs Mach has happened plenty of times in SoCal, but my quick search of their YT channel bore no fruit. I think Babaganoush has an account here but idk the name.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

why what? everyone 4 or tighten the spread to be 3-5?

specifically why it was a bad idea

what I'm largely asking is "is there any purpose to why jumpsquat frames are the way they are?" why is bowser's six while fox's is 2? what are the balancing reasons for either of those, why is anything like it is?

which is why I want it to be normalized or at least everyone have a 3 or 4 frame jumpsquat, there's not a discernible reason for why they are like they are, there's no design sense rather than "sakurai said so."
better to normalize them so everyone is on the relatively same playing field

largely my main complaint is having bowser's and ddd's be as long as they are, as longer jumpsquats are almost universally regarded as detrimental. are these characters supposed to feel worse or have more committal jumping options? why? what is the purpose? simply saying because "it makes the characters feel heavier" is continuing the smash trend of systematically making large characters bad

and then based on that, why is anyone's jumsquat longer than anybody elses? is there a set reason such as "having this jumpsquat would make oos nair hitbox come out before grab, thus making it a viable option"
these reasons might exist but based on the fact that in the history of PM only bowser's jumpsquat has been changed [lol jk nvm I'm wrong] leads me to think that these things haven't been evaluated

sure it might not make an incredibly large difference, but it will make characters "feel" better which is an intangible change which will lead to more palpable development and time investment

 

[eideeiit]

the fact that in the history of PM only bowser's jumpsquat has been changed

Untrue. Sheik, Ganon and Link went from 6 to 5. I think there're even more but idk.

e: lmao sheik is synonymous with zelda for my brain it seems

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Untrue. Sheik, Ganon and Link went from 6 to 5. I think there're even more but idk.

oh lol whoops

 

[Professor Pro]

TMW people talk about your PM sets and how high level they are but you spend 99.5% of your smash time playing Melee.

 

[CORY]

specifically why it was a bad idea

what I'm largely asking is "is there any purpose to why jumpsquat frames are the way they are?" why is bowser's six while fox's is 2? what are the balancing reasons for either of those, why is anything like it is?

which is why I want it to be normalized or at least everyone have a 3 or 4 frame jumpsquat, there's not a discernible reason for why they are like they are, there's no design sense rather than "sakurai said so."
better to normalize them so everyone is on the relatively same playing field

largely my main complaint is having bowser's and ddd's be as long as they are, as longer jumpsquats are almost universally regarded as detrimental. are these characters supposed to feel worse or have more committal jumping options? why? what is the purpose? simply saying because "it makes the characters feel heavier" is continuing the smash trend of systematically making large characters bad

and then based on that, why is anyone's jumsquat longer than anybody elses? is there a set reason such as "having this jumpsquat would make oos nair hitbox come out before grab, thus making it a viable option"
these reasons might exist but based on the fact that in the history of PM only bowser's jumpsquat has been changed [lol jk nvm I'm wrong] leads me to think that these things haven't been evaluated

sure it might not make an incredibly large difference, but it will make characters "feel" better which is an intangible change which will lead to more palpable development and time investment

ah, i see, i misunderstood your original intent.

i agree. obscenely long jump squats don't really have a good purpose beyond "make them feel heavy" (and then it's not like bowser and ddd have obscenely fast or overly stifling aerials from oos that would just be busted with a 5frame jump squat, from what i can tell...). i feel like 5 should be the upward bound (oh hey, that's what ganon got moved to and he feels so much better with just that one frame of difference. hrmm....) with the spread being more bell curve-like, so a lot of the cast sitting at 4 (is this how it currently is? i'm too lazy to check midpost, tbh...)

i'd also like to see hard landing just be a universal 4 frames. guess who has more than that? the fatties (and mewtwo? i think?). if ddd has a forced 11 frames of commitment to jump and land he should ****ing literally wipe out half the screen when he does any meaningfully long startup aerial ;x

 

[nimigoha]

specifically why it was a bad idea

what I'm largely asking is "is there any purpose to why jumpsquat frames are the way they are?" why is bowser's six while fox's is 2? what are the balancing reasons for either of those, why is anything like it is?

which is why I want it to be normalized or at least everyone have a 3 or 4 frame jumpsquat, there's not a discernible reason for why they are like they are, there's no design sense rather than "sakurai said so."
better to normalize them so everyone is on the relatively same playing field

largely my main complaint is having bowser's and ddd's be as long as they are, as longer jumpsquats are almost universally regarded as detrimental. are these characters supposed to feel worse or have more committal jumping options? why? what is the purpose? simply saying because "it makes the characters feel heavier" is continuing the smash trend of systematically making large characters bad

and then based on that, why is anyone's jumsquat longer than anybody elses? is there a set reason such as "having this jumpsquat would make oos nair hitbox come out before grab, thus making it a viable option"
these reasons might exist but based on the fact that in the history of PM only bowser's jumpsquat has been changed [lol jk nvm I'm wrong] leads me to think that these things haven't been evaluated

sure it might not make an incredibly large difference, but it will make characters "feel" better which is an intangible change which will lead to more palpable development and time investment

Fox's isn't 2, it's 3. No one is 2.

Like there's normalization and there's going too far.

>there's not a discernible reason for why they are like they are, there's no design sense rather than "sakurai said so."​

It's known as individuality. Rolls and Spotdodges were normalized (in # of intangibility frames only, not distance, and spotdodges not overall duration). This doesn't give precedent to mess with something based on muscle memory that's been in the game for 14 years. Yes, this is a "because Melee" argument. Melee characters have the same jumpsquat frames in PM (someone correct me if this isn't right, I'm like 95% sure). As different as they are, if I want to play Marth in Melee and PM, I can do that with a near 1-1 transition, the only real difference being a recovery mindset and noting my grab range. Asking people to adjust to different jumpsquat timings for no reason is silly.

>better to normalize them so everyone is on the relatively same playing field
​

Normalizing jumpsquat won't do this.

CORY right now 10 are 3, 14 are 4, 15 are 5, and 2 are 6.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

https://drive.google.com/folderview...&usp=sharing&tid=0Bxqp5x1DVpsPdTNpZkZGT3hsS1k
the duration is 2, that's what I meant

because melee isn't a good enough argument, this game stopped being project melee before 3.0
and I meant same playing field in terms of jumpsquat, ceteris paribus to determine the actual issues with characters

sure jumpsquat won't do much which is exactly why I ask "why not"

 

[MLGF]

Jumpsquats are good ways to balance characters in specific things like out of shield options

Not saying it's all properly balanced, but there's clearly some utility in giving characters long jump squats

 

[G13_Flux]

Untrue. Sheik, Ganon and Link went from 6 to 5. I think there're even more but idk.

shiek was always 3. she was never 6, and is not now 5. she is still 3. bowser went from 8 to 6 at one point. ganon and link did go from 6 to 5 though.

specifically why it was a bad idea

what I'm largely asking is "is there any purpose to why jumpsquat frames are the way they are?" why is bowser's six while fox's is 2? what are the balancing reasons for either of those, why is anything like it is?

which is why I want it to be normalized or at least everyone have a 3 or 4 frame jumpsquat, there's not a discernible reason for why they are like they are, there's no design sense rather than "sakurai said so."
better to normalize them so everyone is on the relatively same playing field

largely my main complaint is having bowser's and ddd's be as long as they are, as longer jumpsquats are almost universally regarded as detrimental. are these characters supposed to feel worse or have more committal jumping options? why? what is the purpose? simply saying because "it makes the characters feel heavier" is continuing the smash trend of systematically making large characters bad

and then based on that, why is anyone's jumsquat longer than anybody elses? is there a set reason such as "having this jumpsquat would make oos nair hitbox come out before grab, thus making it a viable option"
these reasons might exist but based on the fact that in the history of PM only bowser's jumpsquat has been changed [lol jk nvm I'm wrong] leads me to think that these things haven't been evaluated

sure it might not make an incredibly large difference, but it will make characters "feel" better which is an intangible change which will lead to more palpable development and time investment

fox's jumpsquat is 3 frames btw, not 2. however i am on your side in that everyone should be normalized. i dont think that everyone should be normalized to the same number, however. there are legitimate balance reasons why it shouldnt be. peach and yoshi, for instance, both have frame 3 nairs and 5 frame jumpsquats. their nairs also happen to be one of their more prominent killing moves. if you were to lower their jumpsquats down to 3 or 4 frames, you are in turn affecting the potency of those OOS options (just like you mentioned). it also affects the speed of a characters approach, and the speed and effectiveness of their WD OOS (which is a very fundamentally necessary tool in the game). ultimately, you will want to fine tune these options among the cast such that certain characters dont end up with purely better defensive options, when there design is meant to have some weakness in that area. i think anything between 3 and 5 frames is an acceptable range to properly tune each characters defensive and offensive kits accordingly. anything larger than that just leads to characters that are too big of outliers in their lack of effective, fundamental defensive and offensive options.

I'd like all characters to be 3-5, IIRC the only ones with 6 are DDD and Bowser. Just very weird and unique wavedash timing, but I'd like to see the opinions of those who main them.

I don't think everyone should be normalized to the same number, and even if they were to be I would say four, not three, but I think it's a bad idea.

I am a frequent DDD player and i can say that i would definitely like to see him have a lower jumpsquat AND empty landing lag. he currently is in a bad spot because he has lots of holes in frame data. when you couple a frame 6 jumpsquat with not having a single move quicker than 7 frames, AND THEN also give him a 6 frame empty landing lag, youre taking a character that heavily relies on mix ups that are fundamentally slower and flawed. He heavily relies on mixups involving air > ground transition, or vice versa. some of the main components in this neutral game mix up are his inhale, his dair, waddle dees, and simply empty landing > a grab. now his inhale literally is about a 70 frame commitment (the worst in the game, especially for it being a crucial neutral option), and his dair already has about 12 frames of landing lag . when you making simply landing even more laggy, it just eats away at his ability to execute effective mix ups, and it results in a design that is extremely underpowered relative to the rest of the cast. he currently relies on extreme range, and extreme survivability in order to remain somewhat viable, which imo is just really bad for design right now. i think given some better frame data, it wouldnt hurt to bring him in line with the rest of the cast with some of these attributes, while still preserving his uniqueness.

now bowser is another character that i play often, and play against A LOT. its a similar thing with bowser: his neutral game, and defensive options are fundamentally flawed as a result of poor frame data. He is forced to use a single, OOS option almost every time, and its one that relies on being an EXTREME outlier in terms of invincibility allotment and effectiveness at escaping (frame 1-4 invincibility, and can escape off platforms and off the stage to the ledge, which then opens him up to his extremely superior ledge options, like a stupid ledge dash that gets him 17 frame of invincibility and an absolutely crazy ledge attack). now the catch is that none of that gets him a conversion.. its like pouring 5lbs of sugar onto your creme brule dessert. the thing is already like pure sugar, you dont need any more! now, this ties in because i think that reducing his jumpsquat and empty landing lag is the center piece of fixing bowser. not only does this help his mobility in order to deal with worse MUs (fox, ZSS, diddy, etc.) but it also helps out his defensive options. it allows him a better WD OOS, and also a more effective nair OOS. if you couple this with a normal grab (frame 7 and better range), you have a character with diversified OOS options, and you can take off some of the sugar from his super crutchy up b OOS. (AKA too much sugar is bad for your health).

long story short, i am of the opinion that reducing jumpsquat and empty landing lags is one of the first places that the DT should start to look at when fixing some of these underpowered, incomplete characters.

 

[nimigoha]

shiek was always 3. she was never 6, and is not now 5. she is still 3. bowser went from 8 to 6 at one point. ganon and link did go from 6 to 5 though.



fox's jumpsquat is 3 frames btw, not 2. however i am on your side in that everyone should be normalized. i dont think that everyone should be normalized to the same number, however.

He already corrected himself, he meant Zelda went from 6 to 5.

You want more homogenization, not normalization. Normalization is making them exactly the same, homogenization is making them more similar. Range of 3-5 is perfect.

In a nutshell, I think things relying on muscle memory and/or hours and hours of practice shouldn't be normalized. It would mess with so many timings for so many characters. However I would be surprised if there were any people at all who wished DDD and Bowser remained at 6 frame jumpsquats. Bringing them down to 5 I imagine would be very well received.

Standing grabs are another thing that confuse me. DK and Zelda have a frame 8 grab, Bowser has a frame 9, and everyone else is frame 7, then you have tether grabs which shouldn't be normalized because they have wildly different lengths and whatnot. Bringing those three characters down to 7 would be a nice start. Bowser and DK have invincible OOS options but it's still nice to be able to shield grab once in a while.

 

[Boiko]

I'm so confused as to why everyone in this thread is talking about jump squats. Not once have I ever thought, "Man, my 5 frame jump squat is really messing me up right now."

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I tried to play pit the other day and his wavedash felt like cancer then I played ddd and it was worse

 

[Boiko]

I think that's just something that you get used to. I don't think that homogenizing jump squats is going to make a significant difference on any character. It's just a placebo buff.

 

[nimigoha]

I tried to play pit the other day and his wavedash felt like cancer then I played ddd and it was worse

Which is usually cited as a problem for those two characters specifically. It's not a reason to give all 41 characters the same jumpsquat.

I think that's just something that you get used to. I don't think that homogenizing jump squats is going to make a significant difference on any character. It's just a placebo buff.

I mean, it's not really placebo when it means aerials are a frame faster. You do get used to it of course.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

even placebos cause real effects

 

[G13_Flux]

I'm so confused as to why everyone in this thread is talking about jump squats. Not once have I ever thought, "Man, my 5 frame jump squat is really messing me up right now."

well it could be because your main is a 4 frame jumpsquat character. regardless, theyre not extreme buffs by any means, but that doesnt mean that the DT should just leave them as is. in reality, I believe they WILL make a difference, when you couple them with other small changes. when you have characters with undeniably bad frame data, jumpsquat and landing lag reductions DO make a difference. its not doubt that often times, the difference between getting a conversion, and getting punished can be decided by just a couple frames.

these kinds of frame data discussions can be central to some characters that are currently underpowered, or in other words, lower on generally accepted tier lists. They give rise to logical explanations of why these characters arent as good, and how you can go about giving them a better design that will make the characters more interesting to play as and play against. even small frame data tweaks like these arent unimportant. how many times have you seen on the changelogs that a character had some obscure move or attribute tweaked by the most minuscule amount?? obviously the dev team thinks those changes are important, as they are trying to fine tune the characters kits to give them a proper effectiveness of options, and to meet their design goals. thats something i hope you would be able to understand.

additionally, im personally most concerned with the 6 frame jumpsquat and land lag characters, not the 5 frame ones.

 

[Beorn]

I think that's just something that you get used to. I don't think that homogenizing jump squats is going to make a significant difference on any character. It's just a placebo buff.

No way dude. Link going from 6 to 5 frames was a huge buff to him in feeling and qol.

 

[Sardonyx]

Frame 7 grab for Zelda when

 

[Boiko]

If you guys say so.

Anyway, I said I wouldn't, but I got bored and made a tier list. Based a bit on results, plus potential, lots of opinion:

 

[Ripple]

If diddy's banana didn't exist then I wouldn't care about having a 6 frame jump squat. But since it does, having anything more than 5 just makes the MU with diddy impossible for an aesthetic reason that isn't reasonable over MU things.

 

[Beorn]

This is my most agreed upon tier list of every one that I have seen. Besides charizard.

 

[KinGly]

I'm imagining Falco with a 3-frame jumpsquat.

Kill me.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yeah, outside of OoS option stuff, I dont think there is that much of a case. People see it as "bad", then complain about it. It just feels like complaining over such a small change. Empty landing being different is also weird. Worth noting that empty landing affects cc options. Is that justification? I dont think so. But it is something that needs to be mentioned.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah, outside of OoS option stuff, I dont think there is that much of a case. People see it as "bad", then complain about it. It just feels like complaining over such a small change. Empty landing being different is also weird. Worth noting that empty landing affects cc options. Is that justification? I dont think so. But it is something that needs to be mentioned.

really? if you go back and read my posts youll see a number of reasons that i presented that directly affect balance and character viability. speed of aerial approach options, how quickly you can get into the air, and mix ups involving an air to ground transition are all things aside from OOS options that can be affected by it. This isnt complaining. its finding something that is a terrible design attribute and givng specific, logical reasons why it should be changed. theyre also reasons that were outlined in a lot more than 3 lines of text. if you think were just complaining then you are welcome to give a well reasoned post as to why the jumpsquats shouldnt change.

 

[Jamble]

I will say that Bowser's jump timing makes it a ***** and a half to wavedash with him which does frustrate me when I play around with him. That's probably my only complaint about the issue thus far