Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
M2/jiggs is really bad, but at least utilt->rest works, hilariously.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Diddy player here. We've yet to have a top eight placement at a national and people still say he's OP, mostly because he's super popular among good former Brawl players in MD/VA and gets a lot of stream time. There is so much Diddy salt because people don't want to learn item ATs or how to DI his moves so he doesn't get a followup.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
TBH, people playing characters with good wavedashes shouldn't have banana salt, just pick them up
Diddy's pretty annoying to play against, admittedly, but he's nowhere near OP. Unless your opponent is a yung god with sweetspotting his up-b, you should be getting pretty decent edgeguards (even better if remove the barrel misfire which is dumb)
Diddy's pretty annoying to play against, admittedly, but he's nowhere near OP. Unless your opponent is a yung god with sweetspotting his up-b, you should be getting pretty decent edgeguards (even better if remove the barrel misfire which is dumb)
Yeah, the barrel misfire is the only thing that's dumb with Diddy. People usually edgeguard him so badly because they assume he's going to sweetspot, or they edgehog too early and he keeps charging.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
What kill moves does diddy have besides fair and up throw? Forward and down smash?
lol salty
First, there's nothing about Diddy that homes. Barrel misfire is random.
His up-B hitbox isn't big at all.
This is his up-B hitbox:
People are just stupid and RUN IN TO IT.
It's like Fox's phantasm, it seems to have a bigger hitbox than it does because he moves fast.
Diddy is a fastfaller, and gets combo'd to hell, fair is his early kill option- like Fox has his usmash. I'd much rather have Fox's usmash than Diddy's fair, believe me, and it can definitely be dealt with.
People want to nerf Diddy's fair, but no one wants to nerf Fox's usmash or Marth's fsmash...those moves are just as "dumb", but the characters are safe. If we nerf everything any character has that's good, all we'll have left is the good Melee characters again.
Tons of characters have more dumb things than Diddy, but Diddy gets focused on because people get hit by it because he's got a bunch of setups that only work on dumb people (dash attack, non-tech'd bananas) and a recovery that is very very vulnerable but only if you learn the mechanics.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
Well
I don't think NOBODY wants to nerf fox's upsmash...
I don't think NOBODY wants to nerf fox's upsmash...
Uthrow kills floaties around 140%, but doesn't kill fastfallers til around 180% with DI.
Fsmash is really slow, basically is used like Falcon's fsmash- hard reads, there are no setups.
Dsmash is pretty good because it's fast in front of you, but has a lot of cooldown if you miss and is basically pretty average as a kill move. There aren't much setups in to it but it works well out of techchases.
So yeah, Diddy really doesn't have much else besides fair, and he's the 5th fastest faller in the game (after spacies and Falcon) so he's combo-bait. He *needs* to be able to kill with an aerial or he's got nothing. He doesn't even have a great edgeguarding game- NONE of his moves are disjointed- but has the ability to go deep to land fair because his recovery is unsafe but very long.
Diddy primarily kills with fair, because he has nothing else. So everyone wants to nerf fair.
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shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
What
Who in the world would want to nerf Marth's fsmash
Please let him have ONE kill move
Can't even combo into reliably except against spacies.
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This is how I'm reacting to people who want to nerf Diddy's fair. I feel you.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
All smashes basically. Diddy is a bit like Wolf in that aspect. One very strong kill move (fair for Diddy, side-b for Wolf) and lots of solid ones
Huh? Not really...
Fsmash is like Falcon's fsmash, hard read only, there are no setups in to it.
Upsmash never ever kills, it's a purely combo move.
Dsmash is the only smash that kills, and it has a ton of cooldown and only hits in front and hits low, so it's only useful out of techchases. And it's pretty average in terms of knockback.
Wolf's smashes are all fast, all have great range,all kill, and all have less cooldown (except for fsmash).
Diddy's saving grace is that he has a lot of setups in to fair. On fastfallers, nair sets up in to fair. His throws can set up in to fair if you DI them wrong, kind of like Marth's throw > fsmash mindgames, and he can techchase you to a smash or a grab or a nair from a banana or knockdown. If you let him have control of his naners.
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Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
Isn't grounded glide toss into F-smash a common kill with Diddy? Obviously you can tech it, but I wouldn't call that a hard read.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Well f-smash is a read but not a hard read, up-smash is a anti-floaty thing. Granted, Wolf overall has better kill setups but I mean the principle is the same.
No, this is a "low level" play combo.
It's a common misconception that you have to tech right when the banana hits you- the tech window is huge, you can actually tech the banana about halfway in to the trip. It's actually very, very reasonable to expect players to be able to tech surprise banana on reaction to seeing their character start the trip reaction.
In other words, it's way easier to tech a surprise glide toss banana than it is to tech, oh, Captain Falcon dairing you in the face an inch above the ground. Imagine if you could tech halfway through your groundbounce!
When I first started playing Diddy in my region, I did glide toss banana to fsmash or dsmash all the time, until the good players all started teching my bananas. Now, it basically never works here, and I do glide toss banana to a tech roll read.
Diddy has a lot of "low level play" combos, like dash attack to anything (basically relies on bad DI for the dash attack). I rarely dash attack anymore as there is almost always a better option (dash attacking a shield usually leaves you in a worse position behind them with frame disadvantage, and actually landing a dash attack has few followups if they DI right), but dash attack is frequently complained about online.
I suppose you could argue that grounded glide toss into fsmash is a hard read that they are going to tech in place, but again, that whole situation is dependent on very specific spacing on the part of the Diddy and very poor reactions on the part of the target.
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Kati
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2010
- Messages
- 1,471
As a Falcon main, I have to disagree with the f smash comparison. And the one match I played ddk, I ko'd with upsmash... and was surprised how easy it was. This was on Tuesday.
Falcon's smashes are horrible, so perhaps another character can be used as a comparison?
jtm94
Smash Lord
Diddy doesn't need a lot of KO moves because projectiles set up into fair and fsmash.
You can also do Side B footstool into immediate AGT onto the ground and if they don't tech they get fsmashed, is avoidable but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
Just give Ganon a pair of running shoes. His feet become less strong and disjointed, but he can actually move without anchors on his feet.
You can also do Side B footstool into immediate AGT onto the ground and if they don't tech they get fsmashed, is avoidable but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
Just give Ganon a pair of running shoes. His feet become less strong and disjointed, but he can actually move without anchors on his feet.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Diddy is, imo, similar to how he plays in Brawl, like a faster more combo oriented one that doesn't have to rely on nanners quite as much, which is why I think Brawl player might gravitate towards him more. I mean, he still has difference of course, mainly because of the new engine, but of all the Brawl characters in PM he is the one that feels the most like he was in Brawl and still being really good.
But I dunno, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass.
But I dunno, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass.
diddy is pretty good. also don't use MDVA as a good judge for tier lists, a ROB player was their best for an incredibly long time
his recovery is boring and I don't dig the RNG in the barrel hitbox but it's no mewtwo
his recovery is boring and I don't dig the RNG in the barrel hitbox but it's no mewtwo
D
Deleted member
Guest
sorry praxis but diddy is blatantly hardcore OP. there's diddy salt because the character is godlike even by PM buffed brawl character standards.
I think Diddy is popular among Brawl players because he relies on a lot of Brawl ATs and generally moves like his Brawl counterpart. Even wavedashing moves you about the same distance as glide tossing, so Diddy players are used to thinking in those same distances for movement techniques. So Brawl players that played Peach, Zero Suit Samus, or Diddy, or even Wario (bike tire dribbling), pick up Diddy and learn him fast.
Glide toss and banana spacing is something that trips up a lot of Melee players, and I think that's why so many Melee players hate Diddy. It changes how they react with space and they're not used to it.
One thing you'll notice is that most PM Peaches barely use glide tossing/AGT much, and it's kind of sad. It's because most of them are Melee Peaches (Brawl Peaches struggle with Melee Peach's second jump- she had completely different methods of getting back on stage in Brawl that will make you DJC and die in Melee).
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Doesn't Peach have a really short GT, which kinda makes it not worth it? Her AGT is good though.
Godlike? Lol, no way. Mewtwo, Pit, Lucas, and the spacies are all blatantly better, and Mario/Snake/MK/Link probably are too.
Why are his placements not better considering the sheer volume of Diddy players out there? Brawl players tended to gravitate to Diddy and there's a lot of them (NinjaLink, Junebug, Seagull Joe, Boss, etc), but characters like Mewtwo, Pit, and even Snake consistently outperform them. The only Diddy in the top eight at SKTAR was Junebug, who got 8th in doubles, and not one made it in to top eight singles.
Learn to deal with bananas. Or play a character that can rush him down and prevent him from pulling them.
Nah, it's the same length as Diddy's and the same length it was in in Brawl. It's just her backwards GT that is short, and you can DD or RAR a glide toss to fix that. And turnips got buffed.
Glide tossing gives Peach the mobility buff she needed from Melee but Melee players rarely use it in PM.
Call me nuts, but I'd still be playing Peach if she had her Brawl second jump, or that Ness/Lucas thing.If freepulling was in tho...
I just really mentally struggle with getting off the ledge when DJC prevents me from using aerials.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
"If you disagree with me the clear reason is salt and not any other reason"
Never mind that diddy is already a fast character with a reasonable grab, quick throws that all require different DI but are too quick to DI on reaction. But then he has two projectiles, one of which forces a tech chase. That is the ridiculous part. You keep saying "but you cant tech them!" as if it's a good thing for the player being hit, when you should say "It forces you to tech!" Even if you item game is good there are always going to be situations where reacting to a banana is not an option because you are busy doing something else.
Never mind that diddy is already a fast character with a reasonable grab, quick throws that all require different DI but are too quick to DI on reaction. But then he has two projectiles, one of which forces a tech chase. That is the ridiculous part. You keep saying "but you cant tech them!" as if it's a good thing for the player being hit, when you should say "It forces you to tech!" Even if you item game is good there are always going to be situations where reacting to a banana is not an option because you are busy doing something else.
bËst^
Smash Journeyman
I'm suprised that there is almost no discussion about DK (I didn't read every page, but somes here and there and ether I missed all those pages, or no one has talked anything about DK)
DK:s large size and lack of projectile truly gives him trouble in some match ups (Pit, Falco, Snake, diddy...) but I still see DK as potential high tier character due to his amazing punishment game and grapple game. He pretty much takes IC's place as being the main target of "don't get grabbed" -philosophy. Also his improved shield, grab range and recovery gives him much needed boost. He still got his juggling options and moves can now be linked into two potential Spike-attacks (front-B and Front aerial) and the knock back in his Spinning Kong's sweet spot works as very great finisher.
Also he makes great use for new techniques in Ledgejump-aerials and RAR.
DK:s large size and lack of projectile truly gives him trouble in some match ups (Pit, Falco, Snake, diddy...) but I still see DK as potential high tier character due to his amazing punishment game and grapple game. He pretty much takes IC's place as being the main target of "don't get grabbed" -philosophy. Also his improved shield, grab range and recovery gives him much needed boost. He still got his juggling options and moves can now be linked into two potential Spike-attacks (front-B and Front aerial) and the knock back in his Spinning Kong's sweet spot works as very great finisher.
Also he makes great use for new techniques in Ledgejump-aerials and RAR.
Its cuz these people only complain about stuff they see on VGBC, and there hasnt been a dominating DK on there for a good minute, therefore no one discusses it... its a dumb logic i know.
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Marth is a fast character with an unreasonable grab, who can get fsmashes if you DI wrong. It's much easier to deal with Diddy's grabs, especially since certain ones only work at certain percentages (just like Marth). If you know the percentages on your character, you know to always DI a certain way when you get grabbed at certain percentages.
The tech chase is Diddy's MO. Without bananas, Diddy would just be a weaker, slower Fox without a shine (swap usmash for fair for kill option). Gets combo'd to death really badly with few redeeming factosr.
And don't forget that this is a projectile that can be used back on him, he simply spawns the item closer to him (and pressure can prevent him from reaching it).
And don't forget that most characters can combo Diddy harder than he can combo them, because he is a fastfaller, so he's at huge risk out of techchases. Returned bananas are very dangerous.
Diddy's a good character. Probably around the bottom of the top ten in PM. I don't think he's bad at all.
But he is not broken, at all. Or even badly designed (except the barrel misfires). He tends to be amazing at low level play and just pretty good at high- kind of like melee shiek, but a bit more technical.
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Mr.Random
Smash Ace
"Spacies are high risk high reward characters" Lol this gif http://i.minus.com/ibiFCxyWCS2I9U.gif
D
Deleted member
Guest
i'll say that diddy is on league with pit mario mk fox and falco. but characters like link snake and lucas? not even close, diddy is WAY better than any character with a mediocre neutral game. results arent everything in a game this new, but you've already noted that diddy is performing well in the major regions anyway. frankly diddy would still be in the top quarter without bananas.
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I think you may be underrating Diddy a bit. I'd argue that no Diddy's placing well has more to do with his small room for error at top play, similar to why foxes weren't winning nationals for a while in melee. If you mess up, you're punished hard, which makes it difficult to get that first place.
I'm not on the nerf wagon by any means (Aside from the stray barrel thing, that's dumb), but it's easy to see that Diddy has every tool needed to compete with any other character, and probably is one of the most versatile characters aside from maybe Fox. He literally has a tool to deal with anything he comes across.
I mean his DD, grab, tech chase game alone is top tier.
but that's okay, he's a good character as the game should have good characters.
If Fair was nerfed, he'd still do well since he has a good option using every fundamental the game has. (wavedash/land, DD, tech chasing, oos usmash and upB)
I'm not even sure what I'm saying anymore.
Diddy is gud, does he need nerfing? Probably not. Should he get some tweaks? I'd say so.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
To be realistic, Link/Lucas/Snake are clearly worse, Mario/Mewtwo/Pit around Diddy's level and MK slightly better.
Diddy doesn't really need nerfs, just the barrels but also only because they are random.
Diddy doesn't really need nerfs, just the barrels but also only because they are random.
No, I noted that Diddy is performing well in MD/VA, and that's about it.
SoCal top twenty PR only has one Diddy on it (Disqo, #8). Western Washington top ten only has one Diddy (Bladewise, #2, who comains Peach). Eastern Washington top ten only has one Diddy (me, #3). Texas only has one Diddy on their top ten (Luck, ranked #9). I haven't found a NY/NJ/PA Project M ranking, but that region doesn't have any notable Diddies that I know of and has a lot of good Mewtwo's (a hard Diddy counter).
MD/VA is an oddity, the only PR with three Diddies in the top ten, and this is unfortunate because they are the most-streamed region and people make opinions off of their stream. No other region has even half as many Diddies performing well, and no nationals have had Diddy performing well.
There is absolutely no basis in results to think Diddy is OP, and IMO no basis in theorycraft either, as a Diddy player.
Also, I forgot to include Marth in that list. You think Snake isn't good? He's got way better results than Diddy. What about Wolf?
Like I said, I see Diddy in the bottom section of the top ten, with Mewtwo, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Mario, and Lucas as better and MK/Snake pretty evenish. I think Link is underrated, but that's a whole 'nother thing.
The end result, though, is that PM has a very healthy metagame with a lot of characters (nearly a dozen) that are equally arguable as near-top and a majority of the cast as viable in a national (see Sethlon's Roy placement at SKTAR, and I think Roy is trash).
Diddy is hardly OP.
I'd switch MK with Mewtwo. You think MK is better than Mewtwo? I'm not so sure about this, I have a lot of MK experience. I think he's pretty in line with Diddy, and Mewtwo is better than both.
Personally I see Diddy as being worse than Mewtwo and Pit, equal to MK and Mario.
MK's transcendant moveset are actually a big problem in PM- he can't block projectiles like Samus' missiles, Mario's fireballs, and Zelda's fireballs with anything except dash attack, which is really bad offstage. You can mess up his spacing pretty bad by putting things out there.
Also, Lucas worse? He seems to have a very, very high ceiling.
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Bleck
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 27, 2010
- Messages
- 3,133
PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
This shouldn't really fly with the logic you've been using for Diddy. Why does theorycrafting about high ceilings while ignoring the lack of a current presence at nationals only apply to your opinions on Lucas?
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Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
@
Praxis
Probably my opinion of MK is a little distorted because I am maining him and you need to have trust in your main, you know (underplaying your main isn't causing good mindsets).
My reasoning would be MK's high dash speed, his frame 3 f-tilt, much dash sh velocity for strong mixups and just great techchasing.
An experienced MK main will also just handle projectiles, you are normally limited in your options but they can't do other stuff while throwing a projectile (unless high mobility characters with slower projectiles) so MK can find ways around it. Also the stage system is favouring platform-liking characters like MK a bit.
Mewtwo might be a better, but anti-Mewtwo meta is so underdeveloped while great players like Emukiller pushed M2's meta in the last months. Anti-MK meta is a bit more primitive so it is developed to a bigger extent right now.
Pit is a bit overrated because people have sooooooooooooo bad DI against him.
Lucas has so many options with the DJC he would still a lot of combos if people DId better.
Also both Pit and Lucas have a few neutral game struggles which Mewtwo and MK don't have. A top player can use it too stall out the neutral game a bit and then go for an agressive mixup inbetween and characters with a weaker neutral game can do nothing against it, a bit like Mango handles Armada in the neutral game. It is quite a bit matchup dependent but neutral game strong characters generally go up as the metagame evolves, not that bad for Pit and Lucas but bad enough to make them even / worse than Diddy.
Praxis
Probably my opinion of MK is a little distorted because I am maining him and you need to have trust in your main, you know (underplaying your main isn't causing good mindsets).
My reasoning would be MK's high dash speed, his frame 3 f-tilt, much dash sh velocity for strong mixups and just great techchasing.
An experienced MK main will also just handle projectiles, you are normally limited in your options but they can't do other stuff while throwing a projectile (unless high mobility characters with slower projectiles) so MK can find ways around it. Also the stage system is favouring platform-liking characters like MK a bit.
Mewtwo might be a better, but anti-Mewtwo meta is so underdeveloped while great players like Emukiller pushed M2's meta in the last months. Anti-MK meta is a bit more primitive so it is developed to a bigger extent right now.
Pit is a bit overrated because people have sooooooooooooo bad DI against him.
Lucas has so many options with the DJC he would still a lot of combos if people DId better.
Also both Pit and Lucas have a few neutral game struggles which Mewtwo and MK don't have. A top player can use it too stall out the neutral game a bit and then go for an agressive mixup inbetween and characters with a weaker neutral game can do nothing against it, a bit like Mango handles Armada in the neutral game. It is quite a bit matchup dependent but neutral game strong characters generally go up as the metagame evolves, not that bad for Pit and Lucas but bad enough to make them even / worse than Diddy.