Tier List Speculation

[BluntedMask]

We might be at a sweetspot with the game where you don't need to drastically nerf anything.

 

[DrinkingFood]

We might have won the lottery after getting struck by lightning, too

 

[DMG]

Drastic nerfs? No

Nerfs? Ya
^-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
Buffs? Heavy handed at times, will lead to <---------/

 

[ELI-mination]

We might be at a sweetspot with the game where you don't need to drastically nerf anything.

I've felt this way since 2.0

 

[Osennecho]

Buffs?

Puffs?

 

[DMG]

I've felt this way since 2.0

Wasn't that before edge teching, knockback stacking, and xyz fixes tho

Can't have fixes and then NOT give G^W super bacon. Cmon who does that

 

[Zx2963]

2.5 Sonic should come back as well as 2.5 Ike

 

[DMG]

You're banned. Like super duper banned. Silenced, muted, pudge hook + ulted banned

 

[Ogopogo]

What were the problems with the previous versions of Lucario, Ike and Sonic that made them so crazy? And what balance changes were made?

 

[ELI-mination]

Umm well the point wasn't that there should be no changes at that point, but they should gradually become less and less drastic. Not huge overhauls.

 

[mimgrim]

I wouldn't mind 2.6 Bowser coming back.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Wow everyone is bashing Ice Climbers, they are mid-high, just have one of the hardest skill curves and no one playes them

 

[FlamingForce]

Wow everyone is bashing Ice Climbers, they are mid-high, just have one of the hardest skill curves and no one playes them

I'm very interested in hearing your reasoning behind that.

 

[trash?]

any guess on ice climbers and their tier ranking is inevitably a crapshoot, they'll always have the highest skill floor and thus you'll never see them put to good use for years. see also: every game they've been in so far

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Well for example I managed to control Nana's throw direction today. wb handoffs.
Also them deyncs, good in neutral, for combos and anything.
They are able to use Brawl techniques better than anyone else.
Even the edgeguarding is over-average, with one climber covering the edge and the other one the stage.
Getting separated is the only thing hurting long-time right now, for everything else you will need just a bit of metagame work.

 

[didds]

If they're so gud then how comes I keep losing with them huh?!?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Well for example I managed to control Nana's throw direction today. wb handoffs.

Tell how in a PM. U do dis, I go
MASTURD them.

 

[Shinryuenjin]

I'm really enjoying the new Zelda. Being able to play Shiek and throw an opponent off a bit by switching to a Zelda that is actually viable is awesome.

That said, her Fair is absolutely ridiculous. I don't want to hear anyone defending it. It comes out so quickly, is VERY easy to hit with(seriously oh my GOD), and hits so hard that it makes Captain Falcon's Knee look like a horrible move.

Speaking of Captain Falcon, that's another problem I have with PM. In Melee Falcon has never won a major so why exactly does his nair feel off and why did he for the most part remain untouched with all the huge buffs to characters going around? Falcon gets combo'd so hard by a lot of the cast, especially spacies and Shiek. Throw Falcon players some kind of bone please. Reversible Falcon Punches are cool but that's it. Little practical usage. Raptor Boost spikes are cool but also little practical usage. I don't have any suggestions other than fixing his nair at the moment, but it really feels like Falcon can't compete to me. I'll keep playing him in hopes I come up with some suggestions, but does anyone that plays Falcon feel the same about him as I do? I could be wrong and it could just be my imagination but it just feels off to me.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Just predicting this now. Plz don't buff the ICs right now, PMBR, eventually you gonna have to nerf them again + I don't want to play an op character.

 

[Kati]

Because his recovery buff is significant, and it's worth seeing how his m/u spread develops rather than assuming that he will fare the same despite the cast's massive increase.

 

[Zx2963]

You're banned. Like super duper banned. Silenced, muted, pudge hook + ulted banned

They weren't that bad

 

[CORY]

wasn't 2.5 sonic "i don't need to commit ever. oh, you're correctly punishing me? i changed my mind, i'll be back in a minute"?

 

[Paradoxium]

"i don't need to commit ever. oh, you're correctly punishing me? i changed my mind, i'll be back in a minute"?

I can't tell if you're talking about 2.5 or current sonic

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The only character I think needs to be nerfed is Mewtwo. He currently has no weaknesses. After thinking about it for a while, the best way to nerf him without hurting his playstyle is to shorten his teleport. Make it about just above half it's current distance. His recovery would still be good with floats but not so free. His teleport shenanigans would still be intact but he'd have to move towards his opponents more which would give them a chance to punish him. His teleport would still be a good tool but wouldn't be so amazing.

 

[Zx2963]

The only character I think needs to be nerfed is Mewtwo. He currently has no weaknesses. After thinking about it for a while, the best way to nerf him without hurting his playstyle is to shorten his teleport. Make it about just above half it's current distance. His recovery would still be good with floats but not so free. His teleport shenanigans would still be intact but he'd have to move towards his opponents more which would give them a chance to punish him. His teleport would still be a good tool but wouldn't be so amazing.

Eh Mewtwo is fine, people have beaten him countless times, he's not too good. I'd rather keep him as a spacie killer

 

[Phan7om]

The only thing they might need to fix about Mewtwo is Teleport speed and maybe Hover out of Teleport, other than that hes fine tbh.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Mewtwo is nowhere near as bad as people say he is. He can be beaten if your willing to learn the space of his teleport and nullify it's "surprise" factor through movement. I:E get in that sweetspot of his tilts not reaching you but his teleport overshooting you. As for character changes, I wouldn't mind violating the holy ground of Super Smash Bros. Melee by making falcon more interesting. Really folks, he's broken and boring at the same time.

Scratch the broken part, I was thinking too deeply about the knee combo's I've suffered.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Eh Mewtwo is fine

no

 

[Paradoxium]

Mewtwo is nowhere near as bad as people say he is. He can be beaten if your willing to learn the space of his teleport and nullify it's "surprise" factor through movement. I:E get in that sweetspot of his tilts not reaching you but his teleport overshooting you. As for character changes, I wouldn't mind violating the holy ground of Super Smash Bros. Melee by making falcon more interesting. Really folks, he's broken and boring at the same time.

Scratch the broken part, I was thinking too deeply about the knee combo's I've suffered.

And what if your opponent knows that you are trying to perfectly space between their teleport and disjoints? I cannot tell you how many times I've been hit with wd back> Warp fair. I feel like m2 can easily beat you at the space game, because he has his camping projectiles, a reflector, huge disjoints, and warp. I think when you play m2's space game he has the upperhand.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Heh, it doesn't matter *what* game you play. Mewtwo is better at it than you.

 

[Shinryuenjin]

Mewtwo is quite awesome. "Not too good"? Yeah maybe in bizarro world.

 

[Frost | Odds]

tbh just make it a zangief-style SPD grapple

he's basically a grappler anyways, right down to being the worst in the game

oh no

you did not just say Ganon is worse than Bowser

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

You did NOT just say Ganondorf is bad in general...

 

[trash?]

yes, and yes

bowser has options to work with, ganon slowly whiffs moves and hope you're bad enough at the matchup to walk into them

 

[Frost | Odds]

yes, and yes

bowser has options to work with,

lolno. Bowser has Klaw, and he has a ton of garbage that's unsafe on shield and unsafe in general. If you don't win the 50/50 about 6 times in a row, you get 0-deathed instantly

ganon slowly whiffs moves and hope you're bad enough at the matchup to walk into them

His jab is so boss though

Meh, splitting hairs. You also mentioned 4 pages ago or smth that Bowser has the biggest powershield -- not strictly true, I don't think; because he fills most of the space with his body. Mewtwo's enormously tall AND skinny, so the eligible powershield area is substantially bigger.

Anyway, m2/ivy/Lucas for broken tier, yes? Please tell me there's some kind of goddamn consensus on that, or I worry for this place's sanity

 

[Frost | Odds]

Anyway, gonna yolocopy my salt post from the Ivy boards.

How do you think water is wet? ~_~

She's far too safe onstage, and completely invincible offstage (not to mention having one of the best recoveries in the game). Kind of similar issues to mewtwo: moves are stupid long range and fast, and lack any sort of reasonable lag behind them. Punishing a competent Ivysaur is pretty much impossible for most characters without getting consistent hard reads.

That the upB is a guaranteed kill in one of the largest hitboxes in the game (and basically instant) just adds insult to injury.

Her design completely invalidates every large character in the game. Bowser, D3, DK, Zard, Ganon can't jump fast enough to get over Razor Leaf without getting hit by Ivy's fair. Shielding it is a guaranteed grab for Ivy, as is spotdodging, and CCing (because they can't act while the Leaf still overlaps them). It's also next to impossible for her to miss Vine Whip on any of these characters, and her edgeguards on DK and Bowser are beyond free. I'd rather play Melee Bowser vs Sheik than PM Bowser vs Ivy.

She has by far the best, and easiest, edgeguard game in PM. Use bair-> receive kill. Miss (though if you miss with that move PM probably isn't your game) -> who cares? You're totally safe. You also have the option of the spike with the enormous hitbox that, for some reason, pops you up just in case you were actually at risk of dying while getting an offstage kill.

I could go on, but the overall problem is that Ivy almost never has to take any risks, the other player almost always has to work much, much harder than the Ivy, as well as taking more risks and getting more hard reads to end up even.

I don't mean to sound hostile here, but if this isn't all super obvious to you, I suspect that you've never had to play against a competent ivy using any other non-spacie character.

There are a few who have even (or possibly better) MUs on her: fox, falco, *maybe* wolf, falcon, lucas, Diddy, but even those characters have lost the very instant they wind up offstage. Everyone else that I can think of has an overwhelmingly uphill battle in this matchup.

EDIT: yes, I'm aware of the futility of telling a bunch of Ivy players how little skill their character requires. :/

 

[shairn]

Ivy isn't generally considered top tier anymore IIRC. She's strong, but nothing more.
Her recovery is okay. Being a tether-only character, her options are limited to either dairing onto the stage only to get punished or recover low with upB. You know where she's going, so eat her second jump, poke her, and she's done. Her tether's surprisingly short and has an awkward angle for recovery. Also razor leaf is not a guaranteed grab since 3.0.

I'll agree on the upB sweetspot though, it's ridiculous.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Her tether's surprisingly short

It's really not. -_-

Not that it matters. She doesn't even need to use her jump to get to tether-range from pretty much anywhere. Dair gives her a lot of horizontal reach.

and has an awkward angle for recovery.

Not sure what you mean by that. It's utterly, completely, 100% safe against the overwhelming majority of the cast. A few people can get an upair if they hold the ledge against her in some very specific situations; but so what?

Also razor leaf is not a guaranteed grab since 3.0.

Against big guys, yeah it is. Obviously not against Mario/Pikachu/people who can actually jump.

I'll agree on the upB sweetspot though, it's ridiculous.

EDIT: I was trying to convince people that Mewtwo was OP from literally 2 weeks after release. Nobody took me seriously then, either. =|

 

[shairn]

It's really not. -_-

Not that it matters. She doesn't even need to use her jump to get to tether-range from pretty much anywhere. Dair gives her a lot of horizontal reach.

You don't have to sit there while she dairs, the move is pretty punishable, unlike Lucas' magnet who has a repeating hitbox.

Not sure what you mean by that. It's utterly, completely, 100% safe against the overwhelming majority of the cast. A few people can get an upair if they hold the ledge against her in some very specific situations; but so what?

What I mean by this is there's a specific zone where her tether works, and so long as you can knock her out of there before she tethers she's not coming back.

Against big guys, yeah it is. Obviously not against Mario/Pikachu/people who can actually jump.

So don't play big characters against Ivy.

 

[InfinityCollision]

And what if your opponent knows that you are trying to perfectly space between their teleport and disjoints? I cannot tell you how many times I've been hit with wd back> Warp fair. I feel like m2 can easily beat you at the space game, because he has his camping projectiles, a reflector, huge disjoints, and warp. I think when you play m2's space game he has the upperhand.

He's only got two practical options for teleport, horizontal and low angle. Cover/avoid/bait accordingly.