Tier List Speculation

[Praxis]

This shouldn't really fly with the logic you've been using for Diddy. Why does theorycrafting about high ceilings while ignoring the lack of a current presence at nationals only apply to your opinions on Lucas?

Probably because I main Diddy, and think he has a lower technical ceiling than Fox/Falco/Wolf/Lucas. Maybe Lucas is more limited than I know, but that's why I'm asking.

Also:
While there's a fair amount more Diddy advancement to go with banana techchasing and AGT, but there's a lot, and I mean a lot of anti-Diddy advancement to come. Diddy is unique in that the thing that makes him good can also be used by his opponents, and Diddy players tend to get a free pass because they are way more technical in banana play than their opponents are.

Characters like Mewtwo, Zelda, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Peach, and others can use bananas way more effectively than Diddy can. There's a huge almost completely untapped anti-Diddy metagame.

Banana-less Diddy is more like a faster-falling shiek than anything- the bananas are where you can theorycraft high ceilings, but you can also theorycraft those high ceilings on to his opponents using the bananas.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Well in technical skill ceiling Lucas is superior to Diddy but Diddy has the neutral game

 

[trash?]

projectiles aren't as big of a deal for MK as I feel they should be. his mobility is amazing, and his dair means he never really has to worry about getting caught in the air

 

[PlateProp]

Probably because I main Diddy, and think he has a lower technical ceiling than Fox/Falco/Wolf/Lucas. Maybe Lucas is more limited than I know, but that's why I'm asking.

Also:
While there's a fair amount more Diddy advancement to go with banana techchasing and AGT, but there's a lot, and I mean a lot of anti-Diddy advancement to come. Diddy is unique in that the thing that makes him good can also be used by his opponents, and Diddy players tend to get a free pass because they are way more technical in banana play than their opponents are.

Characters like Mewtwo, Zelda, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Peach, and others can use bananas way more effectively than Diddy can. There's a huge almost completely untapped anti-Diddy metagame.

Banana-less Diddy is more like a faster-falling shiek than anything- the bananas are where you can theorycraft high ceilings, but you can also theorycraft those high ceilings on to his opponents using the bananas.

This.

Stealing bananas with Squirtle makes me want him to have an item spawing move, just cause his GT is so damn awesome.

I'll just have to resort to stealing bananas and catching peanuts for now ;/

 

[Frost | Odds]

oh man a three hit combo that does 28% damage somebody call the police

Look at the range on the move

is Cory the guy playing the Wolf? ? ?

no

 

[Praxis]

@ Praxis
Probably my opinion of MK is a little distorted because I am maining him and you need to have trust in your main, you know (underplaying your main isn't causing good mindsets).
My reasoning would be MK's high dash speed, his frame 3 f-tilt, much dash sh velocity for strong mixups and just great techchasing.
An experienced MK main will also just handle projectiles, you are normally limited in your options but they can't do other stuff while throwing a projectile (unless high mobility characters with slower projectiles) so MK can find ways around it. Also the stage system is favouring platform-liking characters like MK a bit.

I'll give you that MK's techchasing game is really, really good, which is why I spent so much of my time when I fight MK figuring out ways to screw up his neutral game and not get grabbed xD

I feel like MK has a tough time finishing, though, and is pretty high risk with his fall speed. When I land hits on MK, it's combo city.

I want to elaborate on that last line of your quote above, because I think that the stage system in PM is anti-Diddy for the same reason. Diddy does terrible on tall platforms that can put his bananas out of reach, so stuff like WarioWare and Dracula's are really bad for him, and you can ban all his best stages with your three bans and CP him to a place that's rough on him.

Mewtwo might be a better, but anti-Mewtwo meta is so underdeveloped while great players like Emukiller pushed M2's meta in the last months. Anti-MK meta is a bit more primitive so it is developed to a bigger extent right now.

Yeah, see, I think anti-Diddy is very underdeveloped as well, because anti-Diddy actually requires specialty skillsets with items. Anti-Diddy metagame has a very high cap but also takes the most work, so people just don't do it.

I actually am pretty good vs Mewtwo, but I also think he's really good and a solid secret Diddy counter (with some of the best banana control in the game).

Pit is a bit overrated because people have sooooooooooooo bad DI against him.

*cough* Diddy *cough*

Interesting though. Definitely appreciate the thoughts

 

[Frost | Odds]

Praxis stop making me wish there was a 'fellate' button right next to 'like'

Seriously great Diddy commentary.

 

[Praxis]

This.

Stealing bananas with Squirtle makes me want him to have an item spawing move, just cause his GT is so damn awesome.

I'll just have to resort to stealing bananas and catching peanuts for now ;/

You should see Mewtwo's crap He can use all his normal aerials while floating and holding a banana, and a lot of his moves grant frame advantage on shield. That means he can teleport > float > aerial > L cancel > dthrow glidetoss under your shield to make you trip if you shield the aerial.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'll give you that MK's techchasing game is really, really good, which is why I spent so much of my time when I fight MK figuring out ways to screw up his neutral game and not get grabbed xD

I feel like MK has a tough time finishing, though, and is pretty high risk with his fall speed. When I land hits on MK, it's combo city.

MK has various kill setups, f-tilt -> d-smash /cape, u-throw -> follow DI with cape bair or up-b on fastfallers, up-air->up-b, but mainly edgeguarding with nair. I would say he maybe has slight KO difficulties, at least compared to other high/top tiers, but he is at least average at it overall.

I want to elaborate on that last line of your quote above, because I think that the stage system in PM is anti-Diddy for the same reason. Diddy does terrible on tall platforms that can put his bananas out of reach, so stuff like WarioWare and Dracula's are really bad for him, and you can ban all his best stages with your three bans and CP him to a place that's rough on him.

I have to agree with you here, good point.



Yeah, see, I think anti-Diddy is very underdeveloped as well, because anti-Diddy actually requires specialty skillsets with items. Anti-Diddy metagame has a very high cap but also takes the most work, so people just don't do it.

Also correct and thats why there are cries for nerfs, but on the longrun the neutral game advantage makes up for it, which isn't the case for Lucas/Pit and only partly for Mewtwo. Still Diddy anti-meta could change much.

I actually am pretty good vs Mewtwo, but I also think he's really good and a solid secret Diddy counter (with some of the best banana control in the game).

Mewtwo has a good MU against Diddy, but at least Diddy has the semi-fast fallspeed to prevent early shadowclaws and the big hurtbox is hindering Mewtwo at least to some extent.

*cough* Diddy *cough*

Interesting though. Definitely appreciate the thoughts

Btw I appreciate this discussion

 

[Deleted member]

Interesting though. Definitely appreciate the thoughts

you listed that diddy has a top 10 player in every basically every region, and then say his tournament results aren't good.

the character has a variable angle, variable startup, variable coverage (barrels) recovery that can scroll walls, and acts as a kill move, but his recovery isn't good and is also easy to edge guard.

the character's neutral game is better than lucas/snake's entire characters, but he's not as good as them.

the character is a pseudo-fastfaller, which means he doesn't really get chaingrabbed and simple DI away solves all of your juggling problems, but his combo weight isn't good.

the character can cover options like crazy for entire stocks, but "has no kill moves".

sorry but you're underrating your character like crazy. you think a character with mediocre appraches like lucas has a high ceiling? try a much better character like diddy.

also the "the opponent's don't know how to play against diddy" or dismissing everything as low level play might work in the (joke) BBR but that doesn't fly here. Everyone is learning how to play with and against every character just like you are, and play level varies absolutely everywhere.

 

[PlateProp]

You should see Mewtwo's crap He can use all his normal aerials while floating and holding a banana, and a lot of his moves grand frame advantage. That means he can teleport > float > aerial > L cancel > dthrow glidetoss under your shield to make you trip if you shield the aerial.

Eh, Squirtle's AGT isint that great, it's his grounded GT. You can cover 6 or 7 8ths of FD with it and he moves so fast it's almost like he warps forward.
And Squirtle's all about fast slidey crap.

But i've never seen m2's AGT, but if it's as good as you say then he sounds like a very hard counter to Diddy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

the character's neutral game is better than lucas/snake's entire characters

You're joking, right?

 

[Deleted member]

You're joking, right?

you know snake's entire neutral game is based on hoping that you suck, and has no real pressure right?

you know lucas's entire neutral game folds to WD back > buffer block right?

 

[Praxis]

Eh, Squirtle's AGT isint that great, it's his grounded GT. You can cover 6 or 7 8ths of FD with it and he moves so fast it's almost like he warps forward.
And Squirtle's all about fast slidey crap.

But i've never seen m2's AGT, but if it's as good as you say then he sounds like a very hard counter to Diddy.

Oh no, I'm talking about grounded glide toss. Mewtwo's grounded glide toss is amazing. I'm talking about Mewtwo teleporting in with a banana in hand, doing a floating aerial that he lands and L-cancels, and then doing a glide toss down out of it on the ground.

Luckily, our local Mewtwo who is top four in my region doesn't have any banana tech skill.

BTW, if you haven't tried it yet, use Squirtle's super long glide toss to dthrow a banana. Dthrown bananas will place under people's shields and trip them.

 

[Frost | Odds]

you know snake's entire neutral game is based on hoping that you suck, and has no real pressure right?

Armada sucks now, and Pit has a real specific weakness against tall characters with big arrowcatching hurtboxes.

Good to know.

you know lucas's entire neutral game folds to WD back > buffer block right?

Definitely joking.

Lucas's neutral game isn't great, but it's not awful - and he can 0-death pretty much any character from any position, and has more, and more reliable kill setups than just about anyone. If any hit in his neutral game connects and the Lucas doesn't have a debilitating disease of some kind, you're already dead.

 

[PlateProp]

Oh no, I'm talking about grounded glide toss. Mewtwo's grounded glide toss is amazing. I'm talking about Mewtwo teleporting in with a banana in hand, doing a floating aerial that he lands and L-cancels, and then doing a glide toss down out of it on the ground.

Luckily, our local Mewtwo who is top four in my region doesn't have any banana tech skill.

BTW, if you haven't tried it yet, use Squirtle's super long glide toss to dthrow a banana. Dthrown bananas will place under people's shields and trip them.

Hm, I see, I'll have to try that. I literally just learned GT today, but my intent was helping my friend with Link bomb jumping. It just sort turned into me practicing with bananas after remembering how wrecked I got playing against someone who knew what they were doing. (It may have been that Luck guy. I'm not sure it was my first Tourney xP)

But what I was using was GGT to DSmash, links pretty well.

 

[Deleted member]

If any hit in his neutral game connects and the Lucas doesn't have a debilitating disease of some kind, you're already dead.

If you got hit in neutral, you deserve the death combo for not doing WD back > buffer block.

 

[Praxis]

If you got hit in neutral, you deserve the death combo for not doing WD back > buffer block.

Unless you're playing Diddy, and Lucas approached you with a banana.

 

[Praxis]

you listed that diddy has a top 10 player in every basically every region, and then say his tournament results aren't good.

I say they're not reflective of a "completely OP character" that you describe. I think he's a top ten character, there's about one Diddy in the top ten of each region, with the sole exception of MD/VA. You think Diddy is completely broken and needs a nerf, which would show...a lot more Diddy placements. Especially in nationals.

the character has a variable angle, variable startup, variable coverage (barrels) recovery that can scroll walls, and acts as a kill move, but his recovery isn't good and is also easy to edge guard.

I said the recovery isn't safe, not isn't good. It's definitely edgeguardable, but it also has very very good range.

the character's neutral game is better than lucas/snake's entire characters, but he's not as good as them.

See above comments, I'm not sure if Diddy is better than Snake or not, but I think you're massively simplifying them.

the character is a pseudo-fastfaller, which means he doesn't really get chaingrabbed and simple DI away solves all of your juggling problems, but his combo weight isn't good.

5th fastest faller in the game is pseudo? Diddy gets combo'd hard.

the character can cover options like crazy for entire stocks, but "has no kill moves".

I said he has no kill moves if you nerf Fair. This is just manipulative.

 

[Praxis]

Isn't grounded glide toss into F-smash a common kill with Diddy? Obviously you can tech it, but I wouldn't call that a hard read.

On a side note, when are you coming to a Spokane tournament, Chevy?! I've got a loser's bracket with your name on it for you to share with Jamnt0ast

Plus, I think I accidentally turned a Samus-playing friend of mine in to a fanboy of yours by sending him your videos when he asked me how to play Samus better.

 

[steelguttey]

i just ****ing hate barrel misfire why is that still here

 

[sneakytako]

I think there's a big problem with the general vocabulary used to describe balance issues in smash.

For example, Zelda's grab hitbox extends behind her. Is this OP? Not really, her grab is slow and awful anyway. But is it stupid? I would say having the ability to grab facing away is pretty stupid.

For another example, lucas's tether grab hitbox is active long enough to hit shorter spotdodges. Is it OP? Possibly, it breaks the rock paper scissors game of shield/grab/spotdodge, and it leads to early deaths. Is it stupid? I would say so.

With this mindset, I would define diddy's current design as stupid.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Zelda's grab has a normal speed in PM. It's not slow.

 

[Zx2963]

I think there's a big problem with the general vocabulary used to describe balance issues in smash.

For example, Zelda's grab hitbox extends behind her. Is this OP? Not really, her grab is slow and awful anyway. But is it stupid? I would say having the ability to grab facing away is pretty stupid.

For another example, lucas's tether grab hitbox is active long enough to hit shorter spotdodges. Is it OP? Possibly, it breaks the rock paper scissors game of shield/grab/spotdodge, and it leads to early deaths. Is it stupid? I would say so.

With this mindset, I would define diddy's current design as stupid.

Mewtwo has a crossup grab as well, I think that's a bit too good

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm very curious to see how Diddy will be in the next update. I think he's easily a top 10 character, probably around number 5 being under Fox, Falco, MK, Wolf in that order... He has so many strengths and aspects to him that are straight up better than the majority of the cast, so seeing @ Praxis downplay him sooo much just gives me the feeling that you just don't want your character nerfed dude (which is totally understandable). If I were to predict how hard he is getting nerfed, I'd expect:
- The angle in which fair sends you to be less devastating.
- A worse recovery (not just the barrel getting removed/reworked).
- MAYBE take away a banana peel.

 

[sneakytako]

Zelda's grab has a normal speed in PM. It's not slow.

Zelda's grab is active from frame 9-11, I don't have every character's grab memorized but I would say that's on the slower side. (Somebody once told me that she has the slowest non tether grab, I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate or not)

MK, Ike, D3, and Metwo's grab is active from frame 7-8, and I think that's pretty average.

 

[GP&B]

Slightly slower than average, but not horrible. Ike's standing is frame 6 iirc and dash is 8 or 9. Most tend to sit around 6.

 

[sneakytako]

Slightly slower than average, but not horrible. Ike's standing is frame 6 iirc and dash is 8 or 9. Most tend to sit around 6.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ike-frame-data-3-02.350437/

Says it's 7-8. You can believe what you want though.

 

[GP&B]

Was just off the top of my head since I haven't touched frame data in a while. I want to say Roy's and Marth's are 6 then.

 

[Chevy]

On a side note, when are you coming to a Spokane tournament, Chevy?! I've got a loser's bracket with your name on it for you to share with Jamnt0ast

Plus, I think I accidentally turned a Samus-playing friend of mine in to a fanboy of yours by sending him your videos when he asked me how to play Samus better.

I should be there for my free money this Black Wolf, if my carpool doesn't fall through.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Lucas's neutral game isn't great, but it's not awful - and he can 0-death pretty much any character from any position, and has more, and more reliable kill setups than just about anyone. If any hit in his neutral game connects and the Lucas doesn't have a debilitating disease of some kind, you're already dead.

Lol who are you? Can I see some videos of you landing consistent 0-deaths with Lucas in a real game?

****ing theory crafters are hilarious. After reading **** like this watching the best in the world play is honestly kind of disappointing.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lucas Neatral is gud

 

[mimgrim]

People need to so work on their item play with this game lol. Me included, I'm so use to how it is in Brawl and how you can pick up items with dash attack and the the neutral air and air dodge, I still need to get use to use to using grab to catch items on the ground and Wave Dash to pick them up on the ground.

I seriously miss dash attack to grab items though.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

As a Ganondorf main, may I just say **** Diddy Kong?

Okay, thank you. Bye.

 

[Ripple]

the fastest grabs are frame 7. it's just that people used to say 6 because debug mode counts frame 0 as a frame.

0,1,2,3,4,5,6 grab is frame 7

 

[Frost | Odds]

Lol who are you? Can I see some videos of you landing consistent 0-deaths with Lucas in a real game?

No. I picked the wrong main at first, then had a hand injury. Now I'm lucky to play 15 mins of Roy in a day without incredible pain.

Nonetheless, we do have a local semi-autistic guy who does this. His mindgames are garbage, but his punishes are pretty much 0-death a large amount of the time.

****ing theory crafters are hilarious.

Lol who are you?

God forbid anyone theory craft in a speculation thread.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Zelda's grab is active from frame 9-11, I don't have every character's grab memorized but I would say that's on the slower side. (Somebody once told me that she has the slowest non tether grab, I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate or not)

MK, Ike, D3, and Metwo's grab is active from frame 7-8, and I think that's pretty average.

That's only in Melee. In PM it was standardized. I'm pretty sure all non-tether grabs hit frame 7 in PM.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm very curious to see how Diddy will be in the next update. I think he's easily a top 10 character, probably around number 5 being under Fox, Falco, MK, Wolf in that order

Mewtwo counters literally every one of those characters, including Diddy - who isn't that good to begin with.

Maybe top 10.

 

[~Frozen~]

That's only in Melee. In PM it was standardized. I'm pretty sure all non-tether grabs hit frame 7 in PM.

Zelda's standing grab still grabs on Frame 9-11.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

No. I picked the wrong main at first, then had a hand injury. Now I'm lucky to play 15 mins of Roy in a day without incredible pain.

Nonetheless, we do have a local semi-autistic guy who does this. His mindgames are garbage, but his punishes are pretty much 0-death a large amount of the time.


Lol who are you?

God forbid anyone theory craft in a speculation thread.

i think theres a difference between theorycraft and claiming you have to be debilitated (which you apparently define as "not an autistic savant"...) to mess up a 0-death on any character from anywhere with lucas though.

anyways good luck with your hand i'm sure we'll see you repping lucas in the finals of every tournament ever once you've recovered.