Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

whenever i see discussion on sonic i have to post this, im sorry.

its just too perfect.

anyway, sonic is p good. but hes not top tier imo. he gets gimped to hard and his weight is too perfect for combos. like zard, his recovery is good, but predictable.

 

[Mr.Random]

When Fox plays a MU "perfect", you don't really hear the additional phrase, "But the other guy still wins"

As perfectly as a human possibly can. If we have perfect reflexes then Fox would be ridiculously broken but we don't so we will make mistakes and will get gimped.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Reflexes/reaction time aren't what cause mistakes though. Bad decisions are. Fox is still debatably the best character or one of the best characters with human reaction time, given both players make all the best decisions.

 

[Mr.Random]

Point is he should be left alone Spacies already got nerfed and while I hate fighting them sometimes, they have some of the best design in the game.

 

[steelguttey]

..they barely got nerfed. hell i think the changes made were buffs if anything.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Point is he should be left alone Spacies already got nerfed and while I hate fighting them sometimes, they have some of the best design in the game.

lol

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

..they barely got nerfed. hell i think the changes made were buffs if anything.

They got buffed generally being added to P:M, when they gained their Brawl techs and then they very slightly were nerfed.

 

[Scuba Steve]

double post

 

[Zx2963]

Well Fox isn't that OP anymore, theirs Wolf, Link, Mewtwo, and Lucas to deal with him

 

[Mr.Random]

How were they buffed? Makes no sense. Brawl tech certainly doesn't make them better than they were in Melee. A lot of characters can combo them from 0 to death even better and a lot of characters can intercept there recoveries easier. We're are talking about balance at the highest level of play. Not low or mid level play. Top level play.

lol

They do have some of the best design. Amazing on stage game but fragile and extremely vulnerable to gimps. Did you not see the percents Fox died at in CEO Grand Finals, or at Apex vs Pit?

 

[Zx2963]

How were they buffed? Makes no sense. Brawl tech certainly doesn't make them better than they were in Melee. A lot of characters can combo them from 0 to death even better and a lot of characters can intercept there recoveries easier. We're are talking about balance at the highest level of play. Not low or mid level play. Top level play.

They do have some of the best design. Amazing on stage game but fragile and extremely vulnerable to gimps. Did you not see the percents Fox died at in CEO Grand Finals, or at Apex vs Pit?

Their tech is easier to do because of 1 extra frame glitch in P:M

 

[Plum]

How is giving spacies additional tools like RAR, B reversals, etc. not just straight up buffs from their Melee counterparts?
Just because every character also gains them doesn't mean they aren't buffs.

 

[GP&B]

>some of the best design
>frame 1 invincible body hitbox with an extreme number of conversions(including ungodly strong upsmash and uthrow to uair for KOs at 90-110), also used to pressure extremely well and gimp
>(in Falco's case) transcendent fast-moving, hitstun dealing projectile with little endlag, no range limit, and variable height

Uh no. They have some of the strongest traits but let's not kid ourselves here, that is some garbage.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

My sig is all about how awesome spacie design is

Poorly thought out balance 4eva

 

[didds]

I'm still giddy about that Wayne's World picture honestly

 

[FlamingForce]

An invincible 1 frame 360 jump cancel move that functions as

-Combo starter
-Combo extender
-Gimp tool
-Shield pressure
-Kill setup
-All around close range panic button
-Reflector (lol)

Hell it can even be used for quickly turning around.

What part of this is good design, honestly.

 

[muleet]

Is there any early board showing the matchup advantages yet, for PM? I think it is more interesting than tier lists, even if it is also way longer to do. Is there any community tool that could make it faster to do, like a vast online poll ?

 

[Ace55]

An invincible 1 frame 360 jump cancel move that functions as

-Combo starter
-Combo extender
-Gimp tool
-Shield pressure
-Kill setup
-All around close range panic button
-Reflector (lol)

Hell it can even be used for quickly turning around.

What part of this is good design, honestly.

Well, the reflector part is pretty fairly designed... They kinda went overboard after that.

 

[Mr.Random]

Whatever. Not like they're getting changed anyway so idk why I bother.

 

[Chevy]

Their tech is easier to do because of 1 extra frame glitch in P:M

Their tech is easier to do because the short hop window has been increased by one frame. I don't think the momentum delay has anything to do with it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Their tech is easier to do because the short hop window has been increased by one frame. I don't think the momentum delay has anything to do with it.

Indeed. Multishines are still a 1 frame window for example.

Though SHDL is easier by 2 frames as a result of the 1 frame physics delay.

 

[Zx2963]

Indeed. Multishines are still a 1 frame window for example.

Though SHDL is easier by 2 frames as a result of the 1 frame physics delay.

The day Falco can SHDL in PM, I'll be happy

 

[shairn]

The day Falco can SHDL in PM, I'll be happy

1- Play Kirby
2- Swallow Falco
3- SHTL
Enjoy.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Instead of crying like the *******s they are, they could try to learn how to edgeguard them.

:^( Let's **** ride PM together

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Fox needs sh*t ton of buffs and ganon needs to be nerfed so hard so that they would be closer in tier lists; even by that, ganon would still be broken and beat the living **** out of fox, because he sucks

:^( going fox vs ganon always now

 

[Juker]

>some of the best design
>frame 1 invincible body hitbox with an extreme number of conversions(including ungodly strong upsmash and uthrow to uair for KOs at 90-110), also used to pressure extremely well and gimp
>(in Falco's case) transcendent fast-moving, hitstun dealing projectile with little endlag, no range limit, and variable height

Uh no. They have some of the strongest traits but let's not kid ourselves here, that is some garbage.

Shine no longer has intangibility on the first frame of activation.

 

[| Kailex |]

:^( going fox vs ganon always now

Ty

 

[Mr.Random]

Shine no longer has intangibility on the first frame of activation.

Which means it trades with a lot more ****. It was a big change. Also the laser nerf hurt his neutral slightly. Although I do like the nerf because it's based off distance which means laser camping is not as effective since the damage you get is not worth it.

 

[Soft Serve]

Which means it trades with a lot more ****. It was a big change. Also the laser nerf hurt his neutral slightly. Although I do like the nerf because it's based off distance which means laser camping is not as effective since the damage you get is not worth it.

It also means grabs will go through it with grab armor.

 

[Mr.Random]

It also means grabs will go through it with grab armor.

It's happened a few times when I've played Spacies. Then I get a sexy chaingrab from 0 to death

 

[Rᴏb]

Whatever. Not like they're getting changed anyway so idk why I bother.

I wouldn't hold your breath...

Now's your cue, PMBR. I'll be waiting.

 

[jtm94]

We're all at a point of waiting.
Where does Samus place? Missiles seem like an amazing projectile, zair is huge, crouch-cancelling for days, can't be combod, and most of her moves seem > Melee.

 

[Paradoxium]

When everyone's up throws get fixed, I miss my Pikachu up throw.

 

[victinivcreate1]

We're all at a point of waiting.
Where does Samus place? Missiles seem like an amazing projectile, zair is huge, crouch-cancelling for days, can't be combod, and most of her moves seem > Melee.

I say high tier. Underrated IMO. Doesn't really lack in any area. Moreso than Mario (whos placement is arguably reliant on one move, his Fire Balls, everything else about him is decent but not incredible except for his lightning quick down smash, Samus has a solid moveset in general with tools to deal with most situations quite effectively, and can deal with shield pressure well too).

 

[Saproling]

Long live my elitist view of my particular smash game which is simply better!

Both games are great but when its been so many years and they refuse to believe we can have something better than Melee its really just ignorant and them screaming "M-muh nostalgia".Thats really my only beef with them I have heard Melee players say it too many times both online and in person for me to not have an issue with it.

To be fair there is room for adaptation, but Fox has some really dumb and powerful tools. His only flaw is literally his falling speed, Fox pretty much has everything a character could wish for.

Its more that the character is extremely developed which only makes sense coming from melee with very minor tweaks.My only issue is run and gun is still too strong and they even nerfed that already.Maybe very little lag in air from lasers could do it but thats questionable.

 

[Saproling]

• • Amazing back throw, can easily gimp, solar beam, amazing up b, can easily kill off the top and sides, great shield pressure, hard to gimp, great recovery, tether, great projectile

Will continue when I have time

>solar beam
Yup because we just get plenty of those for free
>great shield pressure
No.
>great projectile
CC is a thing.

 

[9bit]

My Tier List:

• Top Tier
  • Chaingrabs fast fallers, excellent Recovery, amazing Gimp game, can kill in any direction quite easily, reflector, adaptive projectile and somewhat counters species, moderately fast, disjointed
    
  • Two amazing tech chase throws, excellent Recovery, amazing off-stage game, great Gimp game, can kill easily in both vertical directions, very fast, disjointed, counters spacies, amazing shield pressure
    
  • Excellent stage control and presence, excellent recovery though very hard to perfect, great gimp game, command grab, items, okay projectile, moderately fast, spike
    
  • Excellent recovery, hard to gimp, great projectile, can kill easily off the top, thunder, moderately fast, great at racking up damage, great jab, amazing up-smash, can swiftly edge guard using up b, headbutt invincibility ledge infinite
  • Woop-Woop invincibility ledge infinite, floaty, extremely versatile up b, can easily kill off of any side except bottom, powerful up throw, great bair, amazing gimp and edgeguard game, hard to gimp, psuedo-reflector, excellent recovery, excellent approach, great followups
• Upper-High Tier
  • Amazing Shuffled Nair, amazing Up Smash, can easily rack up damage, super fast projectile, easily chaingrabbled, bad recovery, easily gimped, great tech chase throw, shine, very fast, fast faller, can easily kill off the top, up throw up air, amazing pressure
  • Can Pillar, spike, great projectile, can kill off the bottom and sides, fast faller, shine, easily chaingrabbled, great tech chase throw, great drill shine, horrible recovery, amazing shield pressure, great at comboing
    
  • Amazing back throw, can easily gimp, solar beam, amazing up b, can easily kill off the top and sides, great shield pressure, hard to gimp, great recovery, tether, great projectile
    
  • Highly adaptable, amazing stage control, can easily kill off the top, down throw shenanigans, items, explosives, boomerang, tether, zair, can bomb jump, great on-stage edgeguard, amazing zoning, disjointed
  • Great rushdown, fast, spike, great projectile, amazingly long tether, zair, amazing up throw, pseudo-shine, absorber, floaty, great at comboing
• High Tier
  • Reflector, amazing recovery, fast, great projectile, spike, great at comboing, hard to gimp
  • Reflector, Amazing Projectile, amazing zoning game, great recovery but hard to angle, floaty, hard to predict fairs and bairs, hard to hit fairs and bairs, hard to gimp, amazing gimp game
  • Spike, Disjointed, amazing spacing game, good combos, Chaingrabs fast fallers, good recovery, a bit floaty, ken combo, can easily kill off the bottom
    
  • Fast faller, psuedo-shine, good projectile, fast, great followups, can easily kill off the top, amazing but risky side b, good recovery, easily chaingrabbed, great dash attack

Will continue when I have time

I just now realized or thought or whatever, that there's only 2 characters on this list with no projectile: MK and Marth. I don't know, maybe something to think about.

 

[Vashimus]

Where does Samus place? Missiles seem like an amazing projectile, zair is huge, crouch-cancelling for days, can't be combod, and most of her moves seem > Melee.

High to high-mid for me, my opinion changes overtime. She has tools to deal with just about every character in the cast.

Mewtwo - Samus is one of the worst matchups in the entire game though. 8-2 on a good day.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Mewtwo's so cool, though.

I really love Teleport and its versatility. Makes Mewtwo so awesome and unique in fighting games, like a lot of the cast. Guess it couldn't hurt to give him the Ivysaur treatment, dude really has no poor matchups atm.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think Samus is easily a top ten contender. Dunno why you'd place her anything short of that. She has everything going for her except a top tier combo game, which is hardly necessary when you can still do 40+ damage anyway and knock them far enough away that you can set up your god tier camping and zoning game.
Missiles still cover crazy amounts of recovery options even against some of the best recoveries, she has the best pokes outside of the swordsmen and maybe m2/ddd, not counting Zaïr which pretty much outclasses all other pokes. She has the most mobile and lowest crawl invalidating a lot of aerial approaches and other projectiles, and an amazing crawl attack that make cross up on shields so much more possible while complimenting her already great CQC poking game on shields.
And then you have ice beam, for handling those pesky airborne opponents and recovering enemies. Not that she really needs it that much, because her fire beam got buffed anyways with better linking hits on fair and usmash, plus upair has bigger an better linking hitboxes too so now it actually beats opponents coming in from high.
Bombs are also unblockable in PM btw, she can land them directly out of a footstool, which she can do directly out of a SH dair.
Also grab is faster and pivot grabs are a thing so it's not completely unreasonable to land one anymore, and with great dthrow follow-ups on most characters it's guaranteed damage into stage positioning which is, again, setting up for missile camping and general zair/tilt zoning.