Tier List Speculation

[| Kailex |]

Just like how gahlike eli said it, get better. Oh I cant do x easily, I want to buff A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O PLEB

 

[Giygacoal]

PMBR plz

The one he did when he jumped over the cliff/waterfall would be perfect for the Star KO.

 

[Ultimate Sneeze]

Buff Fox because I want more of a challenge

 

[Fortress]

I'd be happy for a Zelda II/cartoon Link alt. That classic look is great. Plus, the Zelda II Magical Sword? ****ing PIMPED out.

Buff Fox because I want more of a challenge

THIS ****ING GUY.

 

[| Kailex |]

Fox needs sh*t ton of buffs and ganon needs to be nerfed so hard so that they would be closer in tier lists; even by that, ganon would still be broken and beat the living **** out of fox, because he sucks

 

[soultamashii13]

Well you are forgetting one thing. Squirtle is INSANELY light. What really light character in melee did really well? Its exactly like you said. Its the luigi effect.

Luigi: Good combat, good mixups, good mobility, GREAT gimps, small, good aerials. But his recovery is weak and hes too light.

These things will limit squirtle, no matter what. He is just way too killable. We'll see what happens over time, but offensive options aside I think squirlte is pretty easily killable and therefore won't be very good after the meta has evolved.

Jigglypufff....

 

[DMG]

I said it earlier, but basically the only recoveries I'd take issue with are certain tether ones. The flexibility given to them can basically be at the point that if you're not a "hover at the edge and body the weak areas" character, you shouldn't even be standing 3 feet near the edge and instead just wait for them to actually try to get onstage.

The frame data for tethers does interest me quite a bit though. Like understanding how airdodge into tether affects your normal edge invincibility (if at all), how quick or slow it takes some tethers to initially latch onto the edge (seems like different speeds possibly for different characters or ranges) etc. Understanding all of that as a whole would lead to a better understanding of when the poopie you can punish some of them easier.

The good Lord knows I already dislike Link for enough reasons: he doesn't need to give me a new one!

 

[Vashimus]

Even though Melee tethers would probably only exacerbate the issue most people have with them, at least grabbing the edge would require aiming rather than auto-snapping.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Melee tethers have a lot of interesting counterplay to them, and also require more skill to use properly. Players are actually interacting with one another the whole time and it's great. It's a much better mechanic than Brawl tethers.

It wouldn't be the worst thing if they were never reimplemented (to some extent, at least), but it would be absolutely phenomenal if they were.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Melee tethers are also less able to ledge grab from deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[DrinkingFood]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep on stages without walls.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Any consistent wolf player (Rat, Scythe, Silent Wolf, Chillin) don't SD aside from a few times so I have no idea where you're pulling this from.

Except for Chillin

*Comes into thread*

*Reads people still think is good*

*Leaves*

I told you, this thread goes out of control sometimes ^^

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Sry double post plz ignore

 

[Fortress]

Melee tethers are something I could get behind. Sure, my current bomb recovery would probably be ****ed, but, who knows, might be able to perform even more jank.

 

[DMG]

Melee tethers had issues getting programmed in last I could recall. I can't imagine anything significant has been fixable for them if we still have issues like Randall messing up tethers n stuff.

The current tether reel in system is actually quite fine, it's the hit to flexibility that might be in order. Like for zair tethers, if you had a specific window or timing to deploy the tether out of airdodge instead of the semi-huge window you currently get. Or something like if you want to tether out of airdodge, you can only do it on neutral/no direction airdodges instead of directional ones. Don't even ask me if I know how easy or hard that is to program, just that there are def ideas we could try before giving up and going back to Melee ones.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I actually like the current system of tethers. I think it adds lots of mind games. Plus from a gameplay standpoint implementing Melee's would be really hard. Zairs would have to be made longer and not usable as an attack to be balanced. Then you'd have to completely redesign the recoveries of ZSS, Ivysaur, Olimar, and Lucas. It would be a big endeavor for very little improvement.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I actually like the current system of tethers. I think it adds lots of mind games. Plus from a gameplay standpoint implementing Melee's would be really hard. Zairs would have to be made longer and not usable as an attack to be balanced. Then you'd have to completely redesign the recoveries of ZSS, Ivysaur, Olimar, and Lucas. It would be a big endeavor for very little improvement.

Wow how can one person be 100% wrong so many times in a post. It's almost like you're saying things just to say them, and then your justification is "well I mean ya' know, mindgames and balance".

 

[shairn]

I actually like the current system of tethers. I think it adds lots of mind games. Plus from a gameplay standpoint implementing Melee's would be really hard. Zairs would have to be made longer and not usable as an attack to be balanced. Then you'd have to completely redesign the recoveries of ZSS, Ivysaur, Olimar, and Lucas. It would be a big endeavor for very little improvement.

What minds games does it add? It's just a ticket for a free ledge/stage that you have to somehow mitigate. Tethers attacked in melee and weren't a problem. I'm pretty sure they had a similar length too. And nobody said anything about ZSS Ivysaur or Olimar (Lucas? Lucas doesn't have a tether upB). They can keep their brawl tether upB for all anybody cares, it's pretty fair that it's the only option they get unlike Link and Lucas.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Lucas' Down-B out of his tether to hit ledgegrabbers is pretty stupid.

Lucas' recovery as a whole is pretty stupid. The length of Up-B and the tether itself is fine but he shouldn't be able to magnet stall like he does. It gives him too much survivability for the type of offensive character he is.

 

[cise]

I honestly don't mind tether users that have them as their only recovery option, but I feel as though there should be some sort of drawbacks for characters like Samus, Lucas and Link.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

My Tier List:

• Top Tier
  • Chaingrabs fast fallers, excellent Recovery, amazing Gimp game, can kill in any direction quite easily, reflector, adaptive projectile and somewhat counters species, moderately fast, disjointed
    
  • Two amazing tech chase throws, excellent Recovery, amazing off-stage game, great Gimp game, can kill easily in both vertical directions, very fast, disjointed, counters spacies, amazing shield pressure
    
  • Excellent stage control and presence, excellent recovery though very hard to perfect, great gimp game, command grab, items, okay projectile, moderately fast, spike
    
  • Excellent recovery, hard to gimp, great projectile, can kill easily off the top, thunder, moderately fast, great at racking up damage, great jab, amazing up-smash, can swiftly edge guard using up b, headbutt invincibility ledge infinite
  • Woop-Woop invincibility ledge infinite, floaty, extremely versatile up b, can easily kill off of any side except bottom, powerful up throw, great bair, amazing gimp and edgeguard game, hard to gimp, psuedo-reflector, excellent recovery, excellent approach, great followups
• Upper-High Tier
  • Amazing Shuffled Nair, amazing Up Smash, can easily rack up damage, super fast projectile, easily chaingrabbled, bad recovery, easily gimped, great tech chase throw, shine, very fast, fast faller, can easily kill off the top, up throw up air, amazing pressure
  • Can Pillar, spike, great projectile, can kill off the bottom and sides, fast faller, shine, easily chaingrabbled, great tech chase throw, great drill shine, horrible recovery, amazing shield pressure, great at comboing
    
  • Amazing back throw, can easily gimp, solar beam, amazing up b, can easily kill off the top and sides, great shield pressure, hard to gimp, great recovery, tether, great projectile
    
  • Highly adaptable, amazing stage control, can easily kill off the top, down throw shenanigans, items, explosives, boomerang, tether, zair, can bomb jump, great on-stage edgeguard, amazing zoning, disjointed
  • Great rushdown, fast, spike, great projectile, amazingly long tether, zair, amazing up throw, pseudo-shine, absorber, floaty, great at comboing
• High Tier
  • Reflector, amazing recovery, fast, great projectile, spike, great at comboing, hard to gimp
  • Reflector, Amazing Projectile, amazing zoning game, great recovery but hard to angle, floaty, hard to predict fairs and bairs, hard to hit fairs and bairs, hard to gimp, amazing gimp game
  • Spike, Disjointed, amazing spacing game, good combos, Chaingrabs fast fallers, good recovery, a bit floaty, ken combo, can easily kill off the bottom
    
  • Fast faller, psuedo-shine, good projectile, fast, great followups, can easily kill off the top, amazing but risky side b, good recovery, easily chaingrabbed, great dash attack

Will continue when I have time

 

[didds]

My Tier List:

• Top Tier
  • Chaingrabs most characters, excellent Recovery, amazing Gimp game, can kill in any direction quite easily, reflector, adaptive projectile and somewhat counters species, moderately fast, disjointed
    
  • Two amazing tech chase throws, excellent Recovery, amazing off-stage game, great Gimp game, can kill easily in both vertical directions, very fast, disjointed, counters spacies, amazing shield pressure
    
  • Excellent stage control and presence, excellent recovery though very hard to perfect, great gimp game, command grab, items, okay projectile, moderately fast, spike
    
  • Excellent recovery, hard to gimp, great projectile, can kill easily off the top, thunder, moderately fast, great at racking up damage, great jab, amazing up-smash
• Upper-High Tier
  • Amazing Shuffled Nair, amazing Up Smash, can easily rack up damage, super fast projectile, easily chaingrabbled, bad recovery, easily gimped, great tech chase throw, shine, very fast, fast faller, can easily kill off the top, up throw up air, amazing pressure
  • Can Pillar, spike, great projectile, can kill off the bottom and sides, fast faller, shine, easily chaingrabbled, great tech chase throw, great drill shine, horrible recovery, amazing shield pressure, great at comboing
    
  • Amazing back throw, can easily gimp, solar beam, amazing up b, can easily kill off the top and sides, great shield pressure, hard to gimp, great recovery, tether, great projectile
    
  • Highly adaptable, amazing stage control, can easily kill off the top, down throw shenanigans, items, explosives, boomerang, tether, zair, can bomb jump, great on-stage edgeguard, amazing zoning
• High Tier
  • Great rushdown, fast, spike, great projectile, amazingly long tether, zair, amazing up throw, pseudo-shine, absorber, floaty, great at comboing
  • Reflector, amazing recovery, fast, great projectile, spike, great at comboing, hard to gimp
  • Reflector, Amazing Projectile, amazing zoning game, amazing recovery but hard to angle, floaty, hard to predict fairs and bairs, hard to hit fairs and bairs, hard to gimp, amazing gimp game
    
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • 

Will continue when I have time

Pikachu on top? I am interested in this one and look forward to the continuation.

 

[mimgrim]

Pit can only CG fast fallers, not most characters. >_>

There is more then just that, but eh, someone else can pick at them.

 

[didds]

let him finish

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Thanks for your input guys, I fixed the Pit thing thanks to you guys.

As for the Pikachu part, I have been seeing pika jus go quite far in tier lists due mainly to that up b of his. It's an amazing way to rack up damage and is quite safe. His up b is also an extremely powerful recovery tool and can make very clean edge guards. His thunder is amazing and overall plays quite smoothly.

 

[Paradoxium]

Thanks for your input guys, I fixed the Pit thing thanks to you guys.

As for the Pikachu part, I have been seeing pika jus go quite far in tier lists due mainly to that up b of his. It's an amazing way to rack up damage and is quite safe. His up b is also an extremely powerful recovery tool and can make very clean edge guards. His thunder is amazing and overall plays quite smoothly.

Yes!!!! Someone finally understands!!!!

Pikachu has been good in every single smash game, so why wouldn't he be good if you combined all 3? Really a lot of the big disjoint characters struggle against pikachu due to his ground and air mobility, cross-ups, kill power, and combo game.

QaC is a beast of its own, if you still don't see its usefulness then you are probably just bad at the game. Going against a QaC heavy pikachu is scary. The only way to block QaC is to throw out a hitbox, but Pikachu players are looking for this. They are trying to bait out nairs from you so they can get an easy punish.

Pikachu is high tier, get on our level

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

QaC is a beast of its own, if you still don't see its usefulness then you are probably just bad at the game.

Or you don't have interest, play, or play against Pikachu seriously enough to understand all the depth. I still haven't seen it used to much benefit, though my time watching Pikachu play is pretty minimal as I never really see the lil guy on stream.

 

[Paradoxium]

Or you don't have interest, play, or play against Pikachu seriously enough to understand all the depth. I still haven't seen it used to much benefit, though my time watching Pikachu play is pretty minimal as I never really see the lil guy on stream.

If you want to see a QaC heavy pikachu watch Anther.

If you want to see less QaC, and more rush down watch Axe.

And there is some guy named Esam.

 

[Zx2963]

FOX AND FALCO NOT TOP TIER?!
BLASPHEMY, all you need is M2K and PP showing you how wrong that is.
Though I agree Falco is not top tier anymore. Mewtwo, Link, Lucas are top tier for sure. Pikachu is more mid tierish though, QAC is nothing more then a fancy gimmick. I've beaten proficient pika mains with Pika and I don't QAC.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

If you want to see a QaC heavy pikachu watch Anther.

If you want to see less QaC, and more rush down watch Axe.

And there is some guy named Esam.

Will do.

 

[mimgrim]

I've beaten proficient pika mains with Pika and I don't QAC.

-citation needed-

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu is more mid tierish though, QAC is nothing more then a fancy gimmick. I've beaten proficient pika mains with Pika and I don't QAC.

So because you have beaten these #proficient pika mains in dittos that means that QaC is a gimmick? Gee I guess you learn something new every day.

A move that buffs recovery, extends combos, gives more approaches, can grab the ledge from the stage, and covers a large distance in a short amount of time (which can also be acted out of) can't possibly be a gimmick. And either you are really good or those #proficient pikachu mains suck. (Pikachu can still be played well without QaC)

QaC is more than a gimmick, just watch Anther

 

[Zx2963]

-citation needed-

I'm not saying that QAC is useless, more that you play Pikachu like Fox except gimping > QAC. I feel though that if someone mastered QAC, almost like how Axe used it in melee, Pikachu would be top tier.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm not saying that QAC is useless, more that you play Pikachu like Fox except gimping > QAC

-citation still needed-

 

[| Kailex |]

Play against good pikachu mains, then you could talk ****

 

[JOE!]

The Zair tethers are dumb because they are on characters with good recovery options outside the tether:

Bomb Jumping (oddly on Samus, Link and Tink), Magnet Stalling, and hard to hit Up B's. On top of having good air stalling and double jumps (Samus and Lucas), they also have amazing on stage presence (The Links). The ability to essentially get a 3rd jump they can then let go of and use any other recovery option is dumb.

 

[| Kailex |]

All that pile of **** and ganon still wins

 

[Paradoxium]

I'm not saying that QAC is useless, more that you play Pikachu like Fox except gimping > QAC. I feel though that if someone mastered QAC, almost like how Axe used it in melee, Pikachu would be top tier.

QaC is in brawl not melee -__-

 

[Giygacoal]

Isn't the whole point of the Project to make every character as good as Fox was in Melee, because it's better to buff than nerf? Or did I read the sign wrong?

The point of the Project M is to be well-balanced.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Still can't believe people can seriously say "Buff everyone else around this singular character" and not just think there is a problem with that one character, haha