Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Chars you won a game with, and actually contributed to your placing

 

[CORY]

those are both good points.

as well as good points towards **** talking dmg for not showing up and repping falcon.

blablablafamily/life/workjohnswhatever

 

[DMG]

I was gonna rep Falcon, but then I took an arrow to the Knee

 

[PlateProp]

I was gonna rep Falcon, but then I took an arrow to the Knee

Hero's snipes op

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So what's even different about ROB in this patch? I see 90% of the same things as before. Guess those weight and floatiness changes really took a toll on him huh

Edit: Look at that, Ike MU for ROB looks *significantly* different. ROB can't Side B out of danger, float out of combos past 50%, Dthrow GG, chase people off stage, or laser scope anyone. That 2 weight and float reduction really whally-bopped ROB huh guys.

Who tricked balance and design people with basically pushing for ROB weight stuff over other changes? Other than reflector change, which was kind of (absolute triple ??? what), not really sure what meaningfully got changed about ROB to change his status near the top

I mean, that's the kind of changes we want? The kind of changes that make it harder for characters to do things if they have it too easy, but don't totally neuter their gameplan. I don't think I want R.o.B to stop being an airsharking juggalo edgeguard machine. And frankly the weight and floatiness changes does make it easier for Ike to fight R.o.B. As long as R.o.B has the laser and the gyro it'll still be a hard MU for Ike to navigate. But I've never thought it worse than 60-40.

Not sure I should be hearing throw complaints from a Falcon main Also R.o.B's Dthrow was nerfed as well.

I don't really have problems with R.o.B being near the top, always liked his archetype and as long as people can agree he's not stifling to deal with/does have his share of problems, I don't think his current loadout really needs to be messed with. Unless we're saying he's still toxic somehow.

Btw I'm not mad at DF for beating Ally on game 5, but did he have to do it on Castle Seige?? That's just disrespectful to me, personally, man

 

[xLithiumx]

Ain't this supposed to be a Tier List thread?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No, it's the "people try to have productive discussions about balance and then some pedantic ************ comes in and makes a big deal about people not posting ordered lists of characters" thread.

So good job!

 

[xLithiumx]

Thank you good sir!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Thank you good sir!

*ma'am

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@furta
Squirtle is sooooo much fun to play. Nothing about him feels absurd, but he's got so many cool little things he does that are effective. His biggest drawbacks are the gaps in his movement where he can't shield, not having a stupid broken auto combo throw, stubby arm syndrome (thank goodness for bubble), and because he's obscure a lot works that shouldn't.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Also if y'all do anything to nerf R.o.B's fair carry into B-Reversed Boost bair, I will ****ing kill you.

 

[mimgrim]

@furta
Squirtle is sooooo much fun to play. Nothing about him feels absurd, but he's got so many cool little things he does that are effective. His biggest drawbacks are the gaps in his movement where he can't shield, not having a stupid broken auto combo throw, stubby arm syndrome (thank goodness for bubble), and because he's obscure a lot works that shouldn't.

Just want to remind everyone that just because a character is fun to play as doesn't necessarily mean a character is fun to play against. And in tandem with that what might not feel absurd to a player of the character might feel absurd to the player playing against the character.

Not saying any of this or none of this or some of this directly applies (Although I do personally find him to be an annoying little ****** to play against but there are other character I dislike playing against even more right now so he tends to stay under my radar) to Squirtle. Just think it is something to keep in mind.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I can understand people not enjoying a fight with Squirtle. But I also dont think enjoyable -ness should be the only factor if you remove something. But how can expect that out of people who love to whine about everything. Just kinda dissapointing that not everyone can be happy, someone will get mad about something.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just want to remind everyone that just because a character is fun to play as doesn't necessarily mean a character is fun to play against.

What was that about Falcon?

 

[mimgrim]

What was that about Falcon?

You don't know me very well if you think I enjoy playing against Falcon.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You don't know me very well if you think I enjoy playing against Falcon.

a) I don't know you at all
b) thatsthejoke.jpg

 

[AceGamer]

The thing is though that fun is subjective so the PMDT can't do anything to help if you don't find a character fun to fight. Some people like fighting Squirtle, Lucario, ROB and some don't.

 

[Boiko]

Boiko, who are you dropping?

Considering demoting Ness to my secondary. It's funny, because if you look at characters like Lucario, Fox, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and then compare them to Ness, they're better in literally every single way.

They have a stronger combo game, a better recovery, more tools in the neutral, better kill conversions and earlier kills, better gimping, better defensive options, easier time dealing with projectiles and pressure so it makes me wonder, what's the actual point of playing Ness other than character loyalty?

I don't think Ness is "bad" by definition of the word, but he's not strong or independently viable.

 

[DMG]

as long as people can agree he's not stifling to deal with/does have his share of problems, I don't think his current loadout really needs to be messed with. Unless we're saying he's still toxic somehow.

That's exactly what I'm implying, and have implied for months that his changes may have missed the mark almost entirely. What the heck is changing ROB's weight and float status going to accomplish, if his kit changes were:

+.1 SDI multiplier on Dsmash to be normalized

A 5 degree angle change on Dthrow (which was almost 90 degrees to begin with, think about it) that kinda let's people marginally escape from ROB guaranteed throw follow-ups sometimes with DI away... at some %'s... for some chars (hint: it helps but it's not a game changing angle or some Sheik throw mix up status)

Little baby changes on Nair dmg and late hit blah blah

3 frames on Ftilt IASA

Oh and Fthrow/Bthrow aren't wtf quick. 12 Frames instead of 5


Out of all that, his biggest change may have been his reflector (which I didn't include until now, because I can't find the words to describe what I think). I don't even know what to say about that one, but I appreciate that the attempt and good intention to change the move was there.


Unlike other things, which apparently 2 weight and some more FF took care of (this *significantly* changes his Laser, offstage edgeguards, boost mechanics, recovery, onstage gameplay, and many many more things)


I mean honestly, I'd probably be fine with it all if the other characters were getting significantly better, or had great tools of their own. Squirtle, Bowser, D3, Olimar, and some other mains don't have a life-time to wait and see where devs are going to take their characters, or what new buff-nerf trade off they are going to have to deal with this time before becoming better. I'd just tell them to pick up ROB or someone instead if this is how things are going to be: heck next Patch ROB's gonna get the significant change of moving back down 2 more weight and falling faster. Actually I take that back, his reflector may not reflect anymore or something similar at that point.

Squirtle may have hydro-planing removed, Usmash nerf, Dmash 1% buff, tail attack nerfs but balanced by doing better damage and better angles, etc. See where I'm going with this, it's like why bother with Squirtle-kun or someone else.

 

[Foo]

The thing is though that fun is subjective so the PMDT can't do anything to help if you don't find a character fun to fight. Some people like fighting Squirtle, Lucario, ROB and some don't.

Deciding what is fun and what isn't is basically the core of all game design...

 

[Journal]

Considering demoting Ness to my secondary. It's funny, because if you look at characters like Lucario, Fox, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and then compare them to Ness, they're better in literally every single way.

They have a stronger combo game, a better recovery, more tools in the neutral, better kill conversions and earlier kills, better gimping, better defensive options, easier time dealing with projectiles and pressure so it makes me wonder, what's the actual point of playing Ness other than character loyalty?

I don't think Ness is "bad" by definition of the word, but he's not strong or independently viable.

We've got a Ness here in CO (x420x) that I'm good friends with, and we were just talking about this last night and we see no way he isn't independently viable. He just has crazy tools. That being said, this guy pretty much centers his play around the magnet.

He'll get someone with an aerial fire and he has a guaranteed grab out of it and off of downthrow (unless you know how to get out of that I'd actually be very interested to know lol), there's actually no way to get out of it reliably. If you DI in front of him, he'll regrab or get a combo off a forward air to magnet or dair tech chase shenanigans, no DI and he'll magnet regrab you, and DI behind he can decide if he wants to reverse or normal back air you. And none of those things have such high knockback growth that he can't zero to death off it (platform tech chases are a thing too).

He also does this crazy aerial dash dance sort of thing where he'll jump, instantly magnet doublejump fair or bair to threaten space (which is all of course super low to the ground).

He's also got a super hard recovery to edgeguard when you know how to sweetspot, super buttery platform movement, pretty good OoS options, easy way to force a shield... It just seems like he has all of the tools for a top tier status.

 

[DMG]

SDI PK fire is pretty easy and gets you out of a lot of "guaranteed" follow ups. There's also the PS trick Atomsk would consistently use, where inbetween hits you PS the fire pillar and make it your own.

 

[The_NZA]

He's also got a super hard recovery to edgeguard when you know how to sweetspot, super buttery platform movement, pretty good OoS options, easy way to force a shield... It just seems like he has all of the tools for a top tier status.

A. Ness never has a super hard recovery to edgeguard. Just players who don't know how to edgeguard Ness. If Ness tries to recover close to the stage, you can hit him out of PKT1 presuming you act immediately. If Ness tried to recover far from the stage, you can easily hit him out of the 2nd half of pkt2 as it is not invulnerable and loses much of its hitbox (even someone like lucario can easily hit a pkt2 with a short ranged move like nair). If Ness is recovering low, as soon as he lands he will have 20 frames of lag NO MATTER HOW HIGH HE LANDS FROM. So basically, you can either predict where he'll land and charge a smash attack, or simply catch him on his way floating down. Alternatively, if you are a fatty, you can just go after him every time since your likely to run into the pkthunder as long as you stay on top of the boy once the pkt1 has started up. If you have a projectile, you can spam it and see if you net a free kill off of clanking iwth the pk thunder 1.

Basically, the only good recovery option Ness often has is double jump air dodge. If you prepare for that, you've tacitly edgeguarded the character.

B. Double jump cancel shenanigans look really good until you realize Ness HAS to commit to an aerial to do it. Unlike Rob's air boosting, Ness has to use an aerial to take advantage of DJC meaning if you put up a shield, you can often force a frame advantaged position for yourself. Just don't let Ness get close enough to start mag-pressuring you, as that is where all of his options open up.

Basically, the character does not excel at anything except for punish game, and is comprised of various middling traits (mobility), bad traits (recovery/neutral game), or tricky traits (wave bounce mag, mag stalling, DJC aerials/punish game). On the bright side, his punish game IS really good this patch.

 

[Soft Serve]

But that down throw

 

[Boiko]

We've got a Ness here in CO (x420x) that I'm good friends with, and we were just talking about this last night and we see no way he isn't independently viable. He just has crazy tools. That being said, this guy pretty much centers his play around the magnet.

He'll get someone with an aerial fire and he has a guaranteed grab out of it and off of downthrow (unless you know how to get out of that I'd actually be very interested to know lol), there's actually no way to get out of it reliably. If you DI in front of him, he'll regrab or get a combo off a forward air to magnet or dair tech chase shenanigans, no DI and he'll magnet regrab you, and DI behind he can decide if he wants to reverse or normal back air you. And none of those things have such high knockback growth that he can't zero to death off it (platform tech chases are a thing too).

He also does this crazy aerial dash dance sort of thing where he'll jump, instantly magnet doublejump fair or bair to threaten space (which is all of course super low to the ground).

He's also got a super hard recovery to edgeguard when you know how to sweetspot, super buttery platform movement, pretty good OoS options, easy way to force a shield... It just seems like he has all of the tools for a top tier status.

A lot of this is incorrect, and NZA clarified on most of it. But I'd be happy to add some more feedback.

PK Fire can be SDI'd, shielded, or you can buffer a roll to avoid a follow up. If he goes into the air 45 degrees above you, just shield. There isn't much else that he can do.

You can DI his down throw in front of him and SDI any of the follow ups. If he fairs, just SDI out, and the combo ends. If he magnets or uairs, SDI up.

Like NZA said, he HAS to commit to an aerial or a waveland out of DJC. The latter having ten frames of lag, the former being disadvantageous on shields unless you immediately dtilt and their OoS option is slower than frame 7.

His recovery is buns. You just need more time figuring it out. The hitbox is in his body, not in front of him. As Sheik you can just grab ledge and invincible bair him or just swat him. If he goes low, and recovers upward, wait on stage, ftilt>fair. That scoops him up before he can grab ledge and then sends him back off. Also, just throw needles at him and eventually you'll hit the bolt and he'll just die.

Follow that with him being the worst combo weight with some of the worst escape tools and tech rolls, and things just aren't good for the little boy.

He does have tools, and some seriously sick combos if you can pull them off, but with this meteor cancel buffer thing being in the game, his dair chains often don't work purely by accident.

 

[NWRL]

I think Eruption shouldn't drift in the air, it's pretty dumb lol

 

[DMG]

I think Eruption shouldn't drift in the air, it's pretty dumb lol

2 weight off Ike should solve that

 

[NWRL]

u rite

I always feel dirty breaking out of juggles with it.

 

[Apollo Ali]

snip.

NZA? And Boiko? Agreeing on Ness's low level of viability? On MY Smashboards? It's more likely than you think.

 

[The_NZA]

NZA? And Boiko? Agreeing on Ness's low level of viability? On MY smashboards? It's more likely than you think.

They all come around eventually to the NZA Salt train. Let my religion rule this land, immersing the surface with enough salt to force everyone into hiding underground. Some day, I will be the harbinger of a new PM where everyone will be allowed to salt about their character freely. Where every design will be considered terrible and even Marth's disjoints are unfair.

I'll cherish that burning world. All hail the end of 3.6 beta. Long live the New Gods.

 

[JOE!]

I'm gonna replace Ness' bat with a salt shaker just for NZA

 

[DMG]

>Marth has disjoint stronger than a thousand gods

>Doesn't even have the best range in the game

Spoiler

 

[The_NZA]

>Marth has disjoint stronger than a thousand gods

>Doesn't even have the best range in the game

Spoiler

True. I moreso targeted him by name because of his often thought of status of being the best designed smash character of all time.

On a different note, I have no idae if this is the right place to open a discussion about this, but was there ever a statement made on why port priority is still a thing when it comes to things like Snakes grab + grenades/explosions? I feel like snake being able to grab you and you being hit by grenades while he isn't damaged is a huge advantage, and that whole mechanic should either be completely random, hit both parties, or not hit either. Feels reallly ****ty for that to be tied to ports.

 

[DMG]

Port priority is probably impossible to remove or significantly change. The only thing I could think of, would be having grabs cancel each other out if done at the same time (so no priority to either player), or have both players blow up / eat damage (Snake priority stuff among others).

Manually changing things to impact both players may not be possible however. Fixing coding "jank" from Melee and Brawl can be real damn strong to overcome: just look at tethers, light-shielding, Brawl stage detection, etc

 

[Warzenschwein]

To get back to Tier List Speculation:

Discuss this professional Tier List made by me, I'd like to hear your opinions:

Spoiler

They're supposed to be ordered within tiers but since I lack experience regarding many of these characters it's probably inaccurate. Gimme ur input, tier list master speculation

EDIT: In hindsight, I think I put Ganon too low. +3-4 spots, maybe.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

That looks pretty good for the most part, my only complaints:

Ike is definitely not S tier, he is stronk, but still the worst FE character IMO.
Meta Knight definitely belongs in S tier, he has everything but good tech rolls.
I could see arguments for R.O.B. and Falco being S tier.
Bowser and Jigglypuff honestly deserve their own crap tier at this point.

On a side note, I could see any of these characters not in E tier winning a Major in the right hands!

 

[Oracle]

Rob only got 2nd at ltc3 he needs buffs

 

[CELTiiC]

To get back to Tier List Speculation:

Discuss this professional Tier List made by me, I'd like to hear your opinions:

Spoiler

They're supposed to be ordered within tiers but since I lack experience regarding many of these characters it's probably inaccurate. Gimme ur input, tier list master speculation

EDIT: In hindsight, I think I put Ganon too low. +3-4 spots, maybe.

I like your list, but I do have some minor problems with it.
- Falcon is not the fifth strongest character in the game. I feel he is a little lower than Marth.
- Metaknight and Ike should switch spots. I feel Metaknight has all the tools to be amazing in this update, besides minor things. Ike isn't S tier worthy.
- R.O.B should be S-Tier if not the head of A-tier.
- I feel you have Sheik and ZSS a little too low.

Besides that I generally like your list, so good job with it.

 

[Sabre]

I agree that Ike shouldn't be S tier, probably top of A tier but no higher than that. I think that falcon should be a little lower, and probably G&W a bit higher, but that's up to you. Rob should definitely be higher. Meta Knight has the potential to do really well, but I don't think you could fairly put him any higher than he is until we start seeing some top results though. Sheik is probably too low, and I think that falco and wario are as well. Personally, I'd put lucas, peach and mewtwo lower, and I definitely think that with Machiavelli's showing at LTC 3, Ivysaur has some potential that hasn't been recognized yet. Admittedly, as an Ivy main, I'm probably biased but I think that Ivysaur is probably at the lower end of A tier.

 

[Binary Clone]

On a different note, I have no idae if this is the right place to open a discussion about this, but was there ever a statement made on why port priority is still a thing when it comes to things like Snakes grab + grenades/explosions? I feel like snake being able to grab you and you being hit by grenades while he isn't damaged is a huge advantage, and that whole mechanic should either be completely random, hit both parties, or not hit either. Feels reallly ****ty for that to be tied to ports.

Port priority is probably impossible to remove or significantly change. The only thing I could think of, would be having grabs cancel each other out if done at the same time (so no priority to either player), or have both players blow up / eat damage (Snake priority stuff among others).

Manually changing things to impact both players may not be possible however. Fixing coding "jank" from Melee and Brawl can be real damn strong to overcome: just look at tethers, light-shielding, Brawl stage detection, etc

I do really think it comes down to technical limitations.

Nobody would argue that it makes sense for Snake's explosions to only damage one person during grabs depending on port. It's silly, there's no reason for it to be there, and it makes a ditto actually 55-45 for something completely arbitrary. It's one of those things like the one-frame physics delay: we know it's there, we know it's a problem, but fixing it is hard and it might take a bit. But things like Snake's port priority strangeness isn't as important as things like figuring out lightshielding, fixing the physics delay, et cetera, and really might not be feasible to fix at all regardless.

In a perfect world, it'd be great to have that fixed. But it'd also be great to have Melee tethers and the extra depth they bring, a fixed physics delay, light shielding, and all that.