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Tier List Speculation

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
There really isn't a better place to address design concerns.
Perhaps a new thread? Or a Skype group? Or the social? Or really anywhere that isn't here.

This thread is a giant cesspool of hate. There are a ton of opinions, perspectives, and experiences that go unheard with regards to tier lists because this thread is Smash-famous for being an awful place. Most of that is people complaining about characters, and the rest is people making callouts or being outright mean when someone posts an opinion. The latter is something that's horrible everywhere, but the former is something that's easy to improve on. Make another thread for that stuff.
 

shairn

Your favorite anime is bad.
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Current 3.6b tier list incoming
Complained about on tier list thread tier:
:sheilda:
Unusable tier:
:bowser2:
Just playing the game tier:
Everyone else
 

tasteless gentleman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
492
1: No. Being a bowser main isn't required to understand bowser. I have a strong bowser second. Even if I didn't, I could just as well play against the character or as the character + watch videos to get a good understanding of him. You don't need to main a character to know when they have been buffed, or when they need buffs. If the only people with viable opinions on their characters were those character's mains, almost no character would ever get nerfed.
2: I think bowser was more buffed than nerfed. Slightly.
3: I think his MU spread is more normalized, closer to even on most really bad matchups and really good matchups from before while his close to even matchups are barely changed. Speed is a universal tool in smash, it can be used to deal with almost anything, and bowser gained a great deal of speed in 3.6. Therefore, there are going to be matchups he previously did not have the means to deal with that he does now. What he lost were tools that polarized his matchups, like excessive armor/reach.
4: It doesn't matter whether or not any big bowser names changed their mains. Main swaps come with every big change to certain characters, regardless of whether or not they were actually nerfed, because you see aspects of the character lost that the players in question may have enjoyed, or you see aspects lost that were abusable and mediocre players no longer succeed without them. Not to suggest that this is the case with bowser, not in totality anyway.

disclaimer: I still don't think bowser is an amazing character currently. I just think he's better off than he was before. I'm just a little sick of hearing the bitching from like 90% mediocre players (particularly you) and barely any actual feedback from the good 10%. It's not okay to say "This character was mostly nerfed, and here's how I know why, I lost to a guy a normally beat!" and expect that to be valid reasoning.
Okay I am 100% willing to analyze every change, but in return, I want you to do the same in a point/counter point fashion, sound reasonable? I see your opinion of where you think speed was such a big deal, and I have my opinion of why giving some speed is not grounds for taking everything good away (3.5 pit, is the most recent character I can think of).

Also, I don't appreciate you saying I am mediocre when you simply just never heard of me, but that's besides the point. Lets both be respectful, agreed?
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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Okay I am 100% willing to analyze every change, but in return, I want you to do the same in a point/counter point fashion, sound reasonable? I see your opinion of where you think speed was such a big deal, and I have my opinion of why giving some speed is not grounds for taking everything good away (3.5 pit, is the most recent character I can think of).

Also, I don't appreciate you saying I am mediocre when you simply just never heard of me, but that's besides the point. Lets both be respectful, agreed?
This is DrinkingFood, he only respects people who can pound back a glass of burritos.
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
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Perhaps a new thread? Or a Skype group? Or the social? Or really anywhere that isn't here.

This thread is a giant cesspool of hate. There are a ton of opinions, perspectives, and experiences that go unheard with regards to tier lists because this thread is Smash-famous for being an awful place. Most of that is people complaining about characters, and the rest is people making callouts or being outright mean when someone posts an opinion. The latter is something that's horrible everywhere, but the former is something that's easy to improve on. Make another thread for that stuff.
I don't disagree that the thread can be super garbo at times. That doesn't dismiss the validity of discussing design concerns in a public place that DT members can see and this thread often becomes a relevant location to discuss this topic.
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I don't disagree that the thread can be super garbo at times. That doesn't dismiss the validity of discussing design concerns in a public place that DT members can see and this thread often becomes a relevant location to discuss this topic.
That is why I indulged the starting comments in the first place, because they can be relevant and discussion is a good thing. Nevertheless, the initial comment should be considered inappropriate for this particular thread. Starting a new topic within Tier List Speculation is fine, having that initial comment be something inflammatory such as
Guys, another reason to remove Sheilda:

Why does one annoying character transform into another annoying character. Couldn't they combine 2 cool characters or at least 1 cool and 1 ****elord character to even it out. Fundamental balancing issues holy cr@p.
is not fine. Not only does 1) removing Sheilda have nothing to do with Tier Lists and 2) there isn't even anything regarding this thread's topic in this post, but 3) calling characters annoying is unproductive and will only serve to make people upset.

Last time we had this discussion, the initial post was
Speaking of Sheik, get rid of transform already, thanks. I lose to Zelda as Ness, CP Squirtle, beat Zelda, they picks Sheik, I lose with Squirtle. Can't counterpick Ness, because they'll just transform. I lose because I literally can't CP.

Fair and balanced.
followed by
B-but if they put in the effort to learn both characters then they clearly deserve it.
and this
yes, the sheik skill ceiling is monumental. (ik ur kidding but ppl actually use that excuse)
The discussions stemming from them may be good discussions to have, but they should neither be here nor worded so antagonistically. I apologize for dredging up specific examples (and these aren't even particularly bad for this thread), but there is no need for this kind of language.
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
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Sorry, I was making a mockery of poor reasoning that was used to justify Transform.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Warning Received
Tier list thread is going down the shoot. Abort before it becomes worthless
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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The other side of Sanity
Mmm.

This week's IaB was nice to watch. I especially enjoyed the character diversity in the last couple of matches, and Oracle's R.O.B just tearing through Lunch, Seth and June even post-nerfs. Wicked cool and I'm glad to see him take big names, I've been missing his play of late.

June also threw me for a bit when he totally styled on Sethlon's Roy with Ganondorf, I legit freaked out when I saw stomp -> stomp -> Side B suicide. Like holy balls, let's name that. Let's ****ing name it the June Combo.

3.6 has also done this magical thing where a lot of characters look solid, more than any previous patch, and I think PM finally shed much of its 'jankness'. **** just looks smooth and clean and overall cool and skilled.

We need more 3.6 Zamuses and Meta Knights. [In terms of design, not players, though we definitely need more MK players. Look at that thing, it should be winning majors.]

Still salty over the treatment of the bottom half of the cast though. It's like post 3.02 the Dev team is straight up scared of buffs and giving characters cool ****. Like, give Ganon a magic wave ground pound. Give Bowser Peach's DSmash. Give Fox sunglasses.

Bring back the cool.

EDIT: Oh someone explain to me why Tink v/s R.o.B is so **** for Tink, I've been trying to theory through it in my head and I have no idea.
 
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mimgrim

Smash Hero
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Somewhere magical
EDIT: Oh someone explain to me why Tink v/s R.o.B is so **** for Tink, I've been trying to theory through it in my head and I have no idea.
I don't have much experience in this MU but I believe in 3.5 it was a case of R.O.B.'s fall-speed + weight combination that made comboing him difficult and he was good at escaping out juggles and the way is reflector worked against our projectiles which game his a nice neutral against Tink along with a great punish game on Tink.

In 3.6 I believe it might be better, though, since he is more susceptible to our combos and his reflector was nerfed severely but he still has a really good punish game on us and I think he can still compete with us in neutral pretty well.

I don't think it monumentally bad for Tink in 3.6 any more at least. Though Lunchables has a far better understanding of this MU.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
so im gonna try to disconnect myself from forums/discussions about the game until i get better at the game so gg folks im prbably gonna leave this thread for a long while

also i dropped olimar NOT BECAUSE HES BAD but because he was holding me back due to the amount of **** that i have to think of during a match and that really ****ed up my fundamental growth

l8r
 

DMG

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DMG#931
So what's even different about ROB in this patch? I see 90% of the same things as before. Guess those weight and floatiness changes really took a toll on him huh :yeahboi:

Edit: Look at that, Ike MU for ROB looks *significantly* different. ROB can't Side B out of danger, float out of combos past 50%, Dthrow GG, chase people off stage, or laser scope anyone. That 2 weight and float reduction really whally-bopped ROB huh guys.

Who tricked balance and design people with basically pushing for ROB weight stuff over other changes? Other than reflector change, which was kind of (absolute triple ??? what), not really sure what meaningfully got changed about ROB to change his status near the top
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Besides the M2K choking, most of HoT's wins today aren't that surprising if you've seen him before. I can see him beat SB if Adam went 100% Wario or lost crucial Game 1 going Wario first before switching. Didn't see their set but MU wise it's not like he was super gg boned to begin with.

Great player beating people with a decent character. That's Link, we solved the puzzle and can move on
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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Sep 4, 2006
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9,632
Yeah, the angle change, moving dair up, Changing the start up, AND making the knock back super hard to follow up on makes DDD probably one of if not the worst character in the game. I'm not having fun being at disadvantage so often and I'm not playing anymore. I have one tournament obligation left but other than that you won't see me anymore unless he's fixed
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Yeah, the angle change, moving dair up, Changing the start up, AND making the knock back super hard to follow up on makes DDD probably one of if not the worst character in the game. I'm not having fun being at disadvantage so often and I'm not playing anymore. I have one tournament obligation left but other than that you won't see me anymore unless he's fixed
PM conspiracy: PMDT nerfed Dedede to make him the epitome Low Tier in time for Low Tier City

Really though dude I'm sorry. You're one of the people PM shouldn't lose.
 
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The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
Yeah, the angle change, moving dair up, Changing the start up, AND making the knock back super hard to follow up on makes DDD probably one of if not the worst character in the game. I'm not having fun being at disadvantage so often and I'm not playing anymore. I have one tournament obligation left but other than that you won't see me anymore unless he's fixed
BlackListed????
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I'm not watching HoT play Falcon against DF. This was a really bad idea. HoT plz
 
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42rockjock

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Messages
56
Yeah, the angle change, moving dair up, Changing the start up, AND making the knock back super hard to follow up on makes DDD probably one of if not the worst character in the game. I'm not having fun being at disadvantage so often and I'm not playing anymore. I have one tournament obligation left but other than that you won't see me anymore unless he's fixed
Paragon???
 

Apollo Ali

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 3, 2014
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Yeah, the angle change, moving dair up, Changing the start up, AND making the knock back super hard to follow up on makes DDD probably one of if not the worst character in the game. I'm not having fun being at disadvantage so often and I'm not playing anymore. I have one tournament obligation left but other than that you won't see me anymore unless he's fixed
they have to fix him.... right?
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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Yeah, the angle change, moving dair up, Changing the start up, AND making the knock back super hard to follow up on makes DDD probably one of if not the worst character in the game. I'm not having fun being at disadvantage so often and I'm not playing anymore. I have one tournament obligation left but other than that you won't see me anymore unless he's fixed
Same. Besides the last part. I'll just play someone else.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I'd drop PM entirely if I played someone getting worse in this patch, when stuff like "Just make ROB fall faster guize" was apparently taken as his specific major importante balance concern. Not even disrespecting DF's performance: I can applaud the man and loathe the decisions made for his char
 
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Jacob29

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
530
1: No. Being a bowser main isn't required to understand bowser. I have a strong bowser second. Even if I didn't, I could just as well play against the character or as the character + watch videos to get a good understanding of him. You don't need to main a character to know when they have been buffed, or when they need buffs. If the only people with viable opinions on their characters were those character's mains, almost no character would ever get nerfed.
2: I think bowser was more buffed than nerfed. Slightly.
3: I think his MU spread is more normalized, closer to even on most really bad matchups and really good matchups from before while his close to even matchups are barely changed. Speed is a universal tool in smash, it can be used to deal with almost anything, and bowser gained a great deal of speed in 3.6. Therefore, there are going to be matchups he previously did not have the means to deal with that he does now. What he lost were tools that polarized his matchups, like excessive armor/reach.
4: It doesn't matter whether or not any big bowser names changed their mains. Main swaps come with every big change to certain characters, regardless of whether or not they were actually nerfed, because you see aspects of the character lost that the players in question may have enjoyed, or you see aspects lost that were abusable and mediocre players no longer succeed without them. Not to suggest that this is the case with bowser, not in totality anyway.

disclaimer: I still don't think bowser is an amazing character currently. I just think he's better off than he was before. I'm just a little sick of hearing the bitching from like 90% mediocre players (particularly you) and barely any actual feedback from the good 10%. It's not okay to say "This character was mostly nerfed, and here's how I know why, I lost to a guy a normally beat!" and expect that to be valid reasoning.
I can appreciate this post, mostly for the ending. There is a lot of whining yeah. But I do disagree with a few things...

Odds has given a LOT of feedback on Bowser as far as I can tell. He just doesn't post everything he says in this thread.

Also I can accept I am easily a mediocore player, but I really can't see how he has become buffed in this patch. He lost a helluva lot of his stuff and gained very very very very very little. Most would consider that easily a nerf. The only people who claimed he was originally buffed (Odds, Darkblues, me (I don't really count) and a few others) have all changed their opinion to that he is weaker in this current patch. Darkblues held out for a long as heck time, but recently agree'd with pretty much everyone else that he was overall weaker.

I don't know if his MU is more "noramlized". I assume normalized means less obvious win/lose mu's. Which I guess did happen seeing how he lost his obviously win ones. But he kept his obvious losses. Whether that is more "normalized" I don't know, but it's definitely not an improved mu spread.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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Yeah M2K choked hard on HoT, not to invalidate his win or anything though. Just that I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been such a dominant game 2 on HoT's part if M2K didn't have a defeatist attitude sometimes.

Ripple's post made me really sad. And what happened to DDD made me really sad. He broke the mold and was unique but not over the top stupid overpowered, in the slightest. Is this not what we want??? What the hell are we even going for?

Sigh.
 

Rachman

be water my friend
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FL
What characters were represented in top 8 at LTC3? I didn't watch but I'm just gonna assume Cam made it easily with the character the people in this thread have consistently described as terrible.

And yea, why was D3 nerfed the way he was? Because he altered the dynamics of positional advantage? First off, Falco. Second off, there's a reason he's fat, slow, and has (had?) a super long jumpsquat. It actually created interesting unique gameplay where you have to fight a character as more than just another DD fest. One of the more interesting char designs (although not as "exciting" as some others I suppose) in the game and they essentially removed it for seemingly no reason. Why did they? What is D3's niche now? Why was R.O.B. nerfed less then D3? Why was snake buffed up the way he was? Why do G&W's animations literally not serve their purpose? Why can't Sheik or Zelda have anything cool, unique and exciting about their gameplay? I'm not mad, I'm not raging, I'm legitimately just curious. I know there must be a good reason for these changes but I really just don't understand.

Also, I've been messing with DK more when I play PM and in a way I think POOB was right about DK. People just aren't going to fight you legitimately so you just gotta run away and charge up your punch and then just sit around fishing for a way to do a 0-death combo into it. Which is cool and fine in some MUs where it's an option but in more than a few it seems like the only way to play people around my skill level (which isn't that high in PM yet admittedly but it's decent enough). Maybe I'll mess with squirtman or mewtwo more since they seem like they have enough tools, with none of them singularly being overpowering, to promote healthier gameplay. Idk how to feel about PM atm either because I'm really at a loss with some of the changes and the inconsistency with the way they treat each member of the cast.
 
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Life

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Grieving No Longer
LTC top 8 results (copied from Reddit):


Top 8

1 - Junebug

2 - DrinkingFood

3 - TempoStorm | Axe

4 - SSTV OBVN | ipunchkidsz

5 - Hero of Time

5 - Machiavelli

7 - BRL | Ally

7 - Strong Bad

I see Diddy Kong, Ganondorf, ROB, Pikachu, Marth, Lucario, Link, Ivysaur, Ike, and Wario.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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I know there must be a good reason for these changes but I really just don't understand.
Too generous i.m.o. What little I've heard of the PMDT's process of late in determining changes has left me feeling they're a little too slap-dash when it comes to adjustments. This leaves us sometimes with characters that aren't even good, or bad, just ... awkward, like 3.5 Zamus.
 

howbadisbad

Smash Apprentice
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meme hell
so im gonna try to disconnect myself from forums/discussions about the game until i get better at the game so gg folks im prbably gonna leave this thread for a long while

also i dropped olimar NOT BECAUSE HES BAD but because he was holding me back due to the amount of **** that i have to think of during a match and that really ****ed up my fundamental growth

l8r
Who needs fundamentals when you have jank on your side (thanks based 3.02 senpai)

just ask @Foo
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
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Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
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dallas area
LTC top 8 results (copied from Reddit):


Top 8

1 - Junebug

2 - DrinkingFood

3 - TempoStorm | Axe

4 - SSTV OBVN | ipunchkidsz

5 - Hero of Time

5 - Machiavelli

7 - BRL | Ally

7 - Strong Bad

I see Diddy Kong, Ganondorf, ROB, Pikachu, Marth, Lucario, Link, Ivysaur, Ike, and Wario.
hot also used falcon at least once. not a good choice, in hindsight (or to a lot of the audience as it was happening...) but he did it.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Waco
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DMG#931
For all intents and purposes, unless HoT actually dominated his pool or earlier bracket with Falcon, gonna safely just label him as Link lol.
 
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