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People underrated how easy it is to just z drop before you do the aerial you wanted if you have someone else's item in hand
Turnips aren't what make peach good, so many characters crumble to just fc nair and proper spacing/edgeguarding. Also fsmash is rediculously underrated, in melee it had a **** ton of utility in the ditto (anti airs fc fairs from other peaches) and now that it's set after the first one I think fsmash is broken and easy to control. Dair> jump footstool > djc/fc fair is also underutilized, peach bomber is actually good, dthrow dacus is amazing. Peach is a hard character to approach, really good character and honestly people lacking item counterplay doesn't effect peach as much as it does diddy/rob
So I normally avoid posting in this place(And on smashboards in generals) because of how awful it is, but I guess this will be the exception.
Downthrow>Dacas doesn't work,. If you DI down and away, you should never get the strong hit of upsmash, ever. I've heard that it works on rob at mid-percent, but I can't actually confirm that so I'll leave it alone for now. The MOST you can get with some of the floaties is weak hit of Upsmash, which does like 7 percent and doesn't follow up into anything. Getting caught in the strong hit up upsmash off D-Throw equivalent to getting F-Throw>FSmash in Marth dittos, except which peach you have no excuse because how slow D-Throw is.
Also don't see much utility in the Footstool thing you mentioned, seeing how any half decent player would just DI Dair before the Footstool would even happen. And even if they're brain dead and don't DI at all, Nair does about the same damage as fair, wouldn't require a footstool, and has better KBG for high percent kills.
Not really trying to come off as mean or anything, I just don't like misinformation spreading.
So i took some time to see some of the nerfs everyone got and saw that my ***** G dubs got the 1 frame up b moved to 3. Not that i have a problem with that. It still feels the same to me. There was the bucket "nerf" and to be honest it didn't feel like a nerf to me. Does anyone else think it's a benefit to have it back or was it a nerf?
So i took some time to see some of the nerfs everyone got and saw that my ***** G dubs got the 1 frame up b moved to 3. Not that i have a problem with that. It still feels the same to me. There was the bucket "nerf" and to be honest it didn't feel like a nerf to me. Does anyone else think it's a benefit to have it back or was it a nerf?
What I don't like about GnW doesn't have to do with his unique attributes, but it has to do with the combination of unique attributes all put on one character that often combine to reward sloppy play extremely well.
Arguably, 4/5 of his aerials are sexkicks, except for the fact that they are all disjointed and half of them lack sourspots at any point. Something like fair is one of the biggest offenders, where it has a hitbox during the windup above his head, and for the entirety it is out, both of which are equally strong. I've had opponents uthrow to fair me, and I've jumped to escape only to be hit by the startup of fair and sent behind him to my death.
Generally, in this game, sex kicks are considered amazingly powerful partially because they wall off options so well. Normally, disjoints are considered strong in this game, and are compensated by the fact that they just don't last that long or are heavily impacted by timing sourspots (think Marth, Pit, Ike, Metaknight, Bowser as examples. Think Sheik's bair as a counterexample). Rarely do you have someone who has both long acting hitboxes without sourspots that are also disjoints. What this combination means for GnW is that he can try to space you out with one of these tools, and be rewarded if he misses initially and you attempt to punish him too early. You can circumvent this whole relationship if you can outrange him, or easily fox speed your way in when he misses a window, but if you are anyone else you have to dance a very careful line.
Should I rush in too early and still get hit by that sour spotless attack or that weak bair that can combo into fsmash? Or should I attempt to rush in a little later, and get jab grabbed? I'm sure the frame data shows that there are punish windows present, but between the inaccurate animations of these moves, their disjointed-ness, their thorough potency, and the length of their activity, it can be REALLY hard to make the call on when is the right time to go in. And when you guess wrong, you get punished by one of the best combo games or powerful smash attack games into one of the best edge guard games that exists.
Let's say you do guess right, and you go in and start your pressure. Congrats, you made the right call and are now either hitting GnW OR narrowly hitting GnW's shield. Well, he can then up b OOS and have a hitbox protecting him on frame 4, which is the same speed of shine OOS but its bigger and doesn't lock him in place (so you cant swing most smash attacks in anticipation of it for example). If you actually hit GnW, you can combo him for a couple of hits, but then he will use his upb to get out of the situation with the only true combo escape that still exists in Project M.
When you break it down, approaching GnW in neutral requires tight timing, with failure resulting in a large punish against you, and with success resulting in a small reward. This all comes with the addition of some of the most powerful and favorable launch angled smashes in the game and an unorthodox projectile that can entirely cover him and combo into his amazing punishes/smash attacks. People like to somehow pretend Bacon isn't good, but its actually IMO amazing. Consider how it synergizes with the long lasting disjointed nature of his aerials, and the punishes he gets out of it, and you realize what it does is disincentives people committing into his space.
If you go in when the bacon is out, you could be hit by bacon and combo'd into jab-grab, judgement hammer, fsmash, usmash. If you go in when the bacon is subsiding, he can already have a fair or bair out that you are walking yourself into. If you go in preemptively, the starting pan hitbox can hit you, which if you are near the edge of the stage, will semispike you. Again, we have a guessing game that is very hard to crack--which some characters may be able to simply ignore if they can outspace him or outspeed him, but for many it is entirely frustrating.
The natural answer when this was Link in 3.02 and we were takling about boomerang was simply--well just throw out a hitbox, hit the boomerang with a long lasting hitbox and hit Link with the weak hit to get it started. Well, that logic doesn't apply here because GnW can also bait you to do just that, and simply crouch cancel dtilt you with one of the best defensive tools this side of Up B OOS.
Note, this is all being stated without even talking about the flexibility of his (top 5 imo) punish game, incredible recovery, amazing edge guard game, insane throw game, janky tech roll animations, strange animations altogether, bucket braking, and judgement hammer.
Between his coverage, long lasting hitboxes, favorable angles, jank animations, and awesome complementary tools, GnW becomes a fairly anti-meta and unintuitive character to fight in a really unfun way. Much like 3.02 Zelda, he isn't unbalanced per se....but he isn't very fun either. I kind of respect that the PMDT made him a very binary character---on and off with his attacks, with no in betweens (as that seems fitting with his character identity), but is it really that bad to ask some of these design decisions to be turned around?
If you seem to follow my posts (which it sounds like you do), then you already know I'm not for the "nerf to the ground" approach, but I do think this character needs MK/Bowser/Pit level changes, and they've been overdue for a nearly a year.
I would like to start by removing the ability to jump after UpB all the time, adding some sourspots to his aerials to help him combo better in lieu of jump after Up B nerfs, delaying the rise of upb (not just the hitbox timing) by 3-5 frames, making dtilt's hitbox a bunch of small hitbox's that reflect the animation without it being a massive circle in front of him, cleaning up all of his animations and tech rolls, and buffing him else where (like his dash dance speed). I don't really know as I'm not the GnW player but I would love to hear from GnW players who sympathize with me that he's kind of busted on what the proper changed would be to keep him strong while decreasing what makes him frustrating.
Edit:
Two nerfs I considered for jumping out of up b was to make it so you have to initiate it from the ground in order to Dj. Do you have to uthrow dash upb and then jump. This would nerf his recovery and punish game a little, would retain the safeness of upb OOS but make it worse to do in the middle of combos.
The other nerf I considered instead is to make it so landing after using an aerial post up b would have a set amount of lag (similar to Ddd canceled upb special fall animation). It would make it so shielding a high recovery into aerial would make GnW punishable.
This is legit. Too many characters are toolboxes. That's not always a problem, but when they have tools that cover every situation effectively, the swag factor does tend to go away. There need to be more moves that fill a strange niche, and promote creativity. It's interesting that most of the characters people consider good or even problematic, have a vanilla feel to them. They aren't good because of a dumb gimmick, they are good because they are straightforward and semi-bland.
That's part of the fun of Melee as opposed to PM. There will never be patches, so people need to be creative to be successful. PM is going to continue to get balance patches, and the PMDT is going to do what they can to make every character viable. The solution to the dilemma is A: More goofy **** and B: Everyone should explore footstooling.
What I don't like about GnW doesn't have to do with his unique attributes, but it has to do with the combination of unique attributes all put on one character that often combine to reward sloppy play extremely well.
What are you defining sloppy play as? Is it when G&W throws a move out and you end up running into it during one of it's later active frames, because I've posted videos of you doing exactly that. The whole "oh G&W accidentally punishes me" is complete bull**** that I already debunked here:
The majority of your post seems to be based on the premise that when G&W players punish you with certain tools, they couldn't have meant to. This is somewhat reasonable because I'm sure we've all experienced times where we did something that we didn't intend to, but this really isn't exclusive to G&W at all; you can easily assert this about any character. It isn't as absolute as you make it out to be, so that's my first problem with your post.
As steelguttey said earlier in this thread; if you're losing to a character it is on you to learn everything you can about the character before you go complaining about things that you don't know how to deal with simply because you were too lazy to learn how to deal with those things. Research is half the battle and your posts make it apparent that you don't really do too much.
Dude, what? Sexkicks are moves with almost no startup, have long lasting hitboxes, are a single hit, and have almost no landing lag.
Nair is not a sexkick, it has 19 frames of startup, is active for 10 frames and has 8 frames of landing lag.
Upair is not a sexkick, it has 3 frames of startup, is active for 5 frames and has 9 frames of landing lag.
Bair is not a sexkick, it has 9 frames of startup, is active for 13 frames and has 10 frames of landing lag. It's also 5 hits.
These 3 moves all have aspects to them that makes them worse than than every sex kick in the game. This doesn't mean that they aren't great moves that fulfill certain roles, but to label them as sexkicks is so misleading.
Fair and dair are the closest things he has to sexkicks and they are arguably worse in most aspects than the sexkicks of Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Link, Kirby, Yoshi, Mario, Luigi and Sheik. Here's the frame data for each:
Fox Nair: startup 3, active frames 28, landing lag 7. Bair: startup 3, active 16, landing 10.
Jiggly Nair: startup 5, active frames 23, landing lag 10.
Link Nair: startup 3, active frames 28, landing lag 7.
Kirby Nair: startup 3, active frames 27, landing lag 8.
Falco Nair: startup 3, active frames 28, landing lag 7. Bair: startup 3, active frames 16, landing lag 11.
Sheik Nair: startup 2, active frames 28 , landing lag 8. Bair: startup 3, active frames 23, landing lag 8.
Yoshi Nair: startup 2, active frames 31, landing lag 7.
Mario Nair: startup 2, active frames 29, landing lag 7.
Luigi Nair: startup 2, active frames 35, landing lag 7.
G&W Fair: startup 8, active frames 23, landing lag 12. Dair: startup 11, active frames 26, landing lag 10.
As you can see, G&W's frame data shows that his sexkicks are slower to startup, have a shorter duration and have more landing lag than the majority of the sexkicks I just listed.
Generally, in this game, sex kicks are considered amazingly powerful partially because they wall off options so well. Normally, disjoints are considered strong in this game, and are compensated by the fact that they just don't last that long or are heavily impacted by timing sourspots (think Marth, Pit, Ike, Metaknight, Bowser as examples. Think Sheik's bair as a counterexample). Rarely do you have someone who has both long acting hitboxes without sourspots that are also disjoints. What this combination means for GnW is that he can try to space you out with one of these tools, and be rewarded if he misses initially and you attempt to punish him too early. You can circumvent this whole relationship if you can outrange him, or easily fox speed your way in when he misses a window, but if you are anyone else you have to dance a very careful line.
Range & hitbox duration are definitely two of G&W's strengths and you're making this out to be some forbidden, anti-meta combination that shouldn't be in the game. The way I see it, these strengths act as more of a gatekeeper that separates the mid-tier characters from the high-tier ones and frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As you said, there are characters that either out range G&W, are faster than him, or both; these are the characters that most of the cast struggles against and I'm including G&W when I say that.
Again, you bring up the point that G&W can hit people relatively late because of how the hitboxes on some of his moves work and act as if this is a problem with the character rather than a problem with the player who is too lazy to get in the lab and study G&W. Admittedly, it's hard for me to empathize with this complaint since I play the character; I just feel like if I can learn about how G&W's moves work and when they aren't safe, anyone can. I suggested a compromise to this issue though:
One way to fix G&W's ambiguous hitbox problem would be to have the object he is hitting you with simply disappear as soon as it's hitboxes do. Currently, his nair, upair, and ftilt all function this way, and I could easily see his bair, fair, dair, fsmash, dsmash, uptilt and get-up attack work the same. I guess it just boils down who deserves to be happy, the G&W players who enjoy the quirk, or the people who feel they shouldn't have to learn about a character-specific quirk.
Well, he can then up b OOS and have a hitbox protecting him on frame 4, which is the same speed of shine OOS but its bigger and doesn't lock him in place (so you cant swing most smash attacks in anticipation of it for example). If you actually hit GnW, you can combo him for a couple of hits, but then he will use his upb to get out of the situation with the only true combo escape that still exists in Project M.
Upb OOS actually does lock him in place until frame 8 and forces him to be above you until frame 32, so shine OOS is arguably better.
His upb definitely isn't the only true combo escape, floaties in general are great at escaping combos especially if they have a quick move they can throw out (Luigi's Nair, Peach's Nair, etc.)
When you break it down, approaching GnW in neutral requires tight timing, with failure resulting in a large punish against you, and with success resulting in a small reward. This all comes with the addition of some of the most powerful and favorable launch angled smashes in the game and an unorthodox projectile that can entirely cover him and combo into his amazing punishes/smash attacks.
I don't see what's so wrong about having a character that requires you to really commit in order to punish. The fact that G&W can punish people so hard is probably to make up for his weakness of being able to be killed ~90% with most strong smash attacks.
People like to somehow pretend Bacon isn't good, but its actually IMO amazing. Consider how it synergizes with the long lasting disjointed nature of his aerials, and the punishes he gets out of it, and you realize what it does is disincentives people committing into his space.
If you go in when the bacon is out, you could be hit by bacon and combo'd into jab-grab, judgement hammer, fsmash, usmash. If you go in when the bacon is subsiding, he can already have a fair or bair out that you are walking yourself into. If you go in preemptively, the starting pan hitbox can hit you, which if you are near the edge of the stage, will semispike you. Again, we have a guessing game that is very hard to crack--which some characters may be able to simply ignore if they can outspace him or outspeed him, but for many it is entirely frustrating.
Personally I think bacon is really good, but I haven't seen too many G&W mains agree with me... I think you're exaggerating a bit though. It's smart to keep in mind that G&W has to commit to doing SHDB, many characters can run up and punish this due to how long it takes G&W to do, how short his pan hit lasts (1 frame), and how slow and high his bacon actually travels.
Note, this is all being stated without even talking about the flexibility of his (top 5 imo) punish game, incredible recovery, amazing edge guard game, insane throw game, janky tech roll animations, strange animations altogether, bucket braking, and judgement hammer.
I agree that his punish game is one of the best, his recovery is good albeit predictable, his aerial game good, his throws are probably the most broken thing about him, his tech rolls really aren't anything to cry about, his animations I guess I can concede to being strange, bucket braking is stupid but very situational, and judgement is the second most broken thing about him.
The changes I would give G&W at this point would be these:
Remove bucket braking.
Less KBG on Dair.
3 definitive bacon angles.
Have objects G&W is using disappear when their hitboxes do.
Have the windup hit (hat hit) of fair have the same stats as the normal hit rather than the early hit.
4 distinct throw animations.
His IASA frames on his up, back and forward throws be increased by 4. (10->14)
A third bell taunt.
I don't expect anyone to take this last part seriously, but I feel like it needs to be said. I honestly think that you being a Ness main is why your opinions about G&W are so extreme. A lot of your complaints are simply non-issues to other characters and this makes your position seem so ridiculous to me. You've mentioned 'design issues' a bunch of times in your posts about G&W but a lot of the time I feel like the real issue is that you've pigeon-holed yourself into thinking that it's not okay for your character to be so bad compared to G&W... The only complaint you make that has any sort of merit to it is the whole animations not being apparently obvious thing.. but even that could be circumvented by putting effort into learning the G&W matchup.
How do you feel about the fact the Mr. Lz, who is arguably the best G&W right now, has said things like,
"Game and Watch needs more nerfs than most of the cast"
"Following DI is really easy"
"It is an auto combo"
Game and Watch has a pretty simple strategy, tbh. He even has a simple strategy in melee, it's just better now in PM. He's a very straight forward character with a pretty highly skewed risk reward. I like that you suggested some nerfs, and they are interesting to consider. But I don't think that they eliminate any significant design flaws sans the animations changes.
I recently played against a strong Brawl player who has transitioned to PM. Game one he played Charizard, his main and I beat him pretty convincingly. Game two he played Game and Watch and I used the same degree of patience that I had used in the first game, but it didn't really make a difference. Every punish he got was notably harder and seemingly mindless. He escaped combos with upb very easily, which, if I wasn't in a position to SDI, I would get hit by a follow up. Nothing about it felt intuitive. It just felt like give me combos. I won anyway pretty solidly, but that doesn't mean that I didn't pick up on certain traits.
Also, attempting to dismiss someone's opinion because they main a certain character, and further attempting to justify it by saying, "you think it's not okay for your character to be so bad compared to Game and Watch" is very childish and presumptuous. Especially since other people, with all different mains, are agreeing.
How do you feel about the fact the Mr. Lz, who is arguably the best G&W right now, has said things like,
"Game and Watch needs more nerfs than most of the cast"
"Following DI is really easy"
"It is an auto combo"
Game and Watch has a pretty simple strategy, tbh. He even has a simple strategy in melee, it's just better now in PM. He's a very straight forward character with a pretty highly skewed risk reward. I like that you suggested some nerfs, and they are interesting to consider. But I don't think that they eliminate any significant design flaws sans the animations changes.
I recently played against a strong Brawl player who has transitioned to PM. Game one he played Charizard, his main and I beat him pretty convincingly. Game two he played Game and Watch and I used the same degree of patience that I had used in the first game, but it didn't really make a difference. Every punish he got was notably harder and seemingly mindless. He escaped combos with upb very easily, which, if I wasn't in a position to SDI, I would get hit by a follow up. Nothing about it felt intuitive. It just felt like give me combos. I won anyway pretty solidly, but that doesn't mean that I didn't pick up on certain traits.
Also, attempting to dismiss someone's opinion because they main a certain character, and further attempting to justify it by saying, "you think it's not okay for your character to be so bad compared to Game and Watch" is very childish and presumptuous. Especially since other people, with all different mains, are agreeing.
Having g&w animations actually make sense I think is the most important change he needs. the point of animations is to show players what the hitboxes look like. Which is why brawl Snake is so dumb.
Also I think that he should lose his double jump if you hit him out of his up-b. That way you can actually get a punish of baiting out the move.
clearly we need super food. would totes balance GW.
I can see GW taking a somewhat decent sized redesign the next patch or two. He still has a lot of things that other characters were targeted for in 3.5 and 3.6. his throw DI mix up game is still completely intact, while both shiek and toon link had their throw games directly redesigned to avoid it. his recovery still has very little lag, whereas characters like fox and m2 were touched on in these regards. most things on him i think are fine, but there are certain attributes like that that I can see being removed/changed based on patterns of other characters.
G&W does need nerfs but mainly a redesign, in my opinion 2/3rds of the PM cast are awfully designed tho with as much autocombos as GnW.
Also, I play against a lot of GnWs and up b is actually easy to bait lol. Just bait them to do it by pressuring shield at a safe distance then double jump and hit them with an aerial.
The changes I would give G&W at this point would be these:
Remove bucket braking.
Less KBG on Dair.
3 definitive bacon angles.
Have objects G&W is using disappear when their hitboxes do.
Have the windup hit (hat hit) of fair have the same stats as the normal hit rather than the early hit.
4 distinct throw animations.
His IASA frames on his up, back and forward throws be increased by 4. (10->14)
A third bell taunt.
I mean I'd love more context. Who was he saying this to? When did he say it? Was he playing someone who knew how to SDI? What is an autocombo? Was he talking about DACG? Gatling combo? Why does G&W need more nerfs than most the cast? What nerfs should he get?
@MrLul
Also, attempting to dismiss someone's opinion because they main a certain character, and further attempting to justify it by saying, "you think it's not okay for your character to be so bad compared to Game and Watch" is very childish and presumptuous. Especially since other people, with all different mains, are agreeing.
You're right, I'm sorry I did that @The_NZA, it's just that I can't think of another reason to spread misinformation other than character johns. You said G&W had 4 sexkicks. You said he could bucket brake, DJ and airdodge after an upb and was therefore safe to descend. You said he was the only character that could escape combos. You said that G&W player could "accidentally" punish you as if other characters couldn't do the exact same thing and as if this was an actual argument for bad design; it basically boiled down to "if I don't expect it, it's a problem with the character". You said shine was better designed than G&W's upb. SHINE. You said that upb didn't lock you in place compared to shine, when it actually does. You admitted yourself that,
You can circumvent this whole relationship if you can outrange him, or easily fox speed your way in when he misses a window, but if you are anyone else you have to dance a very careful line.
when you were talking about G&W's strengths, which in other words means that while his strengths can be overbearing for certain characters, this isn't the case with others. You responded to one of my posts by saying,
I'm not going to refute the individual points in your post becaus I don't actually think they are objective points. Yes, there is always counterplay. Hell, there was tons of counterplay and ways to play against Zelda in 3.02 that were viable. It doesn't mean that I don't think the character rewards your own mistakes with vast opportunity.
which not only tells me that you completely ignored my post, but that you think that it was more subjective than your own!
I just don't understand it man. I would love a more in-depth conversation about the flaws you see in G&W's design because I'm honestly starting to doubt my position since so many people are agreeing with yours, but if I see straight up misinformation, anecdotes from people who don't know much about my character and don't care to learn more, and people spouting buzzwords such as "jank" and "unintuitive" without showing me examples of why this is so (frame data especially) I just can't take these posts seriously.
G&W does need nerfs but mainly a redesign, in my opinion 2/3rds of the PM cast are awfully designed tho with as much autocombos as GnW.
Also, I play against a lot of GnWs and up b is actually easy to bait lol. Just bait them to do it by pressuring shield at a safe distance then double jump and hit them with an aerial.
Redesign side b too pls. 1/3rd of a chance to get a 9? Even numbers are all spikes?
Can't say I agree with you about 2/3 of the cast being awfully designed with autocombos... But appreciate the input from someone who obviously knows how to play, lol.
@Boiko
, how do you feel about 2/3 the cast having autocombos?
Oh and trust me, I would love it if side b got changed into a completely different move that could potentially aid in making G&W a little less polarizing, but it'll never happen. The PMDT seem waaay to set on keeping G&W's wacky side b for the sake of wackyness.
I felt that way too and said I was going to pick up the character. My G&W was instantly great after a week due to my fundamentals. I dedicated another 6 months to the character and my G&W barely improved. He's like Mario where you immediately "get" the character, and then there's not much left to explore.
Mr. Lz is a god btw, better than my G&W no contest. "Best G&W" is between him and Dakpo pretty obviously.
"2/3 the cast has autocombos"
lol
Most of the ones with autocombos are left over from melee (falcon, falco, fox for example have obscenely reliable stuff), and if you're not comparing PM having autocombos to not-autocombos melee, then **** if anybody really knows what you mean
I felt that way too and said I was going to pick up the character. My G&W was instantly great after a week due to my fundamentals. I dedicated another 6 months to the character and my G&W barely improved. He's like Mario where you immediately "get" the character, and then there's not much left to explore.
I think most characters with poor dash dances are like that actually. He and Mario have the same dash/run speed last I checked. Mobility tends to breed creativity and thus reward it.
Going to chime in and say that fixing GnW's animations should come before any other serious rework. He literally looks more oppressive to play against than his under-the-hood properties really are, which makes it hard to judge how good he actually is and at what things.
A few months ago I played Strong Bad in tournament... Game one he went wario, it was last stock each and I lost (I suck and bowser bombed to ledge at a... bad time).
Game two, GnW. Nearly got 4-stocked.
Now, bowser has a terrible matchup against both of those characters, I'm mediocre, and Strong Bad is good, but the difference was quite stark.
That's pretty much all the anecdotal evidence I have that GnW should at least be toned down a little. Easier to edgeguard? Less 0-death on big characters? Clearer animations? I don't know. But as the rest of the thread has been saying, he absolutely merits attention and I have to assume PMDT is looking at him carefully, whether he ends up changed much or not. Thanks guys.
Character wins/does well at major
Everybody complains about character, ****ty anecdotal evidence to back up results of a single event (or maybe two)
Character gets "nerfed" as a result of design philosophy changes as a whole + need for design changes to Character particularly
Everybody assumes character was adequately nerfed for balance's sake, ceases discussion
another character wins/does well at a major
tier list speculation thread, never change
The only exception appears to be fox
He is the exception to getting design adjustments and the exception to being thought of as "adequately nerfed"
The point was not about the nerfs, it's about how the bulk of this thread/character discussion in general seems to be "satisfied" by changes to a character, justifying those changes with top placings, when the real reason behind changes as more to do with character designs not meeting design goals
People need to learn the matchup. Everything gdubs does is laggy and punishable, but doesn't look that way because his animations are stupid. Fix those and we're good.
Seriously. People are allergic to playing patient, and then they get all upset when the character with big disjoints stuffs their approaches.
This isn't that hard, people. Gdubs has no options in neutral. Force him to approach you and he's screwed.
[/rant]
TL;DR: gdubs doesn't need a redesign. People just refuse to play patiently, and that's not a design problem. There are bits of gdubs i'd like to see nerfed (f-smash/d-smash), but overall...if you're approaching gdubs, you're at fault for losing, not the CSS.
Are people complaining about G&W? Dude I used to have so much trouble with him that I'd get too frustrated to even play against a G&W. Every time I'd have to go against one at friendlies Id just not play with them at all from how angry I used to get in matches. Eventually I decided to stop being a baby and just study the character. (Videos of good G&Ws, videos of people with my main dealing with G&Ws and just lots of research) Eventually he just became another character to go against. He doesn't give me as much trouble even though he's supposed to be good against my main. I think the only character in the whole game to give me a feeling anywhere near (honestly more maybe) is Wario. I guess I just have to deal with what the game is and realize that there's always gonna be characters with stupid stuff in this game. All you can do I just git gud instead of crying "pls nerf. Pls fix."
Edit: wut .. G&W can use DJ out of up b?I never noticed that.
PMDT pls let Sonic be able to do that. Lol
I did if you recall. I said that random gordo was kind of degenerate and made worse by the fact that you can gordo-dash now. Though we agreed it was no dumber or less intuitive than peach pulling out a bomb or beam sword mid match. Though Gordo being far more frequent than those two events, it is not as game changing as peach pulling a beam sword mid match. As for the actual nerds ddd got, the dair surprised me, but the suction nerf didn't.
TBH I still wish it just counted up every time you hit someone
that way there's no farming, and the 1 hit kill/stronger hits are rewards for landing the weak hits/low numbers first
How do you feel about the fact the Mr. Lz, who is arguably the best G&W right now, has said things like,
"Game and Watch needs more nerfs than most of the cast"
"Following DI is really easy"
"It is an auto combo"
Game and Watch has a pretty simple strategy, tbh. He even has a simple strategy in melee, it's just better now in PM. He's a very straight forward character with a pretty highly skewed risk reward. I like that you suggested some nerfs, and they are interesting to consider. But I don't think that they eliminate any significant design flaws sans the animations changes.
I recently played against a strong Brawl player who has transitioned to PM. Game one he played Charizard, his main and I beat him pretty convincingly. Game two he played Game and Watch and I used the same degree of patience that I had used in the first game, but it didn't really make a difference. Every punish he got was notably harder and seemingly mindless. He escaped combos with upb very easily, which, if I wasn't in a position to SDI, I would get hit by a follow up. Nothing about it felt intuitive. It just felt like give me combos. I won anyway pretty solidly, but that doesn't mean that I didn't pick up on certain traits.
Also, attempting to dismiss someone's opinion because they main a certain character, and further attempting to justify it by saying, "you think it's not okay for your character to be so bad compared to Game and Watch" is very childish and presumptuous. Especially since other people, with all different mains, are agreeing.
Yea I played MrLZ at Evo. Everytime I got grabbed I died. I won due to heavy camping/walling with banana and peanut. is really dumb with his auto combos lol. too, but that's a whole other ballpark discussion.
I mean, I was trolling really hard with that PM tier list LMFAO.
I honestly believe is the worst character in the game now. Every strength he had in 3.5 was removed and he became FAR easier to camp/hit/combo. I don't know why he was made so bad in 3.6b.
I've been playing bowser trying to believe he's worse, i'm still just more convinced that he's better, and his "gimmicky" strengths that abused lower/mid level play were just outsourced to stuff that requires really good fundamental play to use to its full effect
Like armor being a powerful tool for bowser relied more on the opponent being willing to commit and get punished for it directly, but now bowser doesn't need to eat damage to secure punishes as often, and I don't think bowser armor stuff is going to be that reliable long term except for like, edgeguards and escaping punishes
there's no way a DD that much better isn't an enormous buff
I've been playing bowser trying to believe he's worse, i'm still just more convinced that he's better, and his "gimmicky" strengths that abused lower/mid level play were just outsourced to stuff that requires really good fundamental play to use to its full effect
I'm not really having any difficulties punishing though. Like the few times I don't get a free fair off side-b, they had to jump out and then I get a free hit anyway after the fair whiffs; lots of situations like that come up, I don't understand how it's a big issue except for the few matchups like maybe ROB where the character jumps out and then still has a ton of freedom
Gdubs needs redesigns that are nerfs.
How I'd change GnW
Remove Bucket Braking
Remove Double jump after Up b
Redesign side b
Change throw animations and nerf uthrow a bit
Somehow redesign dtilt
1. Make dtilt manhole stop spinning and lay flat when the hitbox stops.
2. Tilt game and watch upwards for the last part of his dash attack animation (the part with no hitbox)
3. Make nair come out faster but make the hitbox only cover the parachute.
etc. etc. for the rest of game and watches problem animations.
The changes I would give G&W at this point would be these:
Remove bucket braking.
Less KBG on Dair.
3 definitive bacon angles.
Have objects G&W is using disappear when their hitboxes do.
Have the windup hit (hat hit) of fair have the same stats as the normal hit rather than the early hit.
4 distinct throw animations.
His IASA frames on his up, back and forward throws be increased by 4. (10->14)
A third bell taunt.
I like most of these changes except there are a few I disagree with.
The biggest thing I would change is all the random factors of GnW. I think if we are truly trying to build a competitive game, then we must remove the random aspects so results are not skewed.
First we should take away hammer. The move is dumb. Sure its fun to get 9s and whatever, but when the game outcome can be completely determined by the flip of a coin, then no one wins. I suggest the move just be changed to something completely different.
The second one is probably the greatest design flaw of GnW, we need to change bacon again lol. As it stands now, GnW has a projectile that can dominate large characters and ones that tend to jump a lot like puff. The move is also horrendously useless against most of the other portions of the cast during neutral. This is because when fighting a dash dancing opponent, bacon shoots diagonally into the air where no one is. The move becomes pretty terrible until we get into a juggle situation.
I like the direction the PM dev team went when they changed it so that I can only have 2 pieces of bacon out at a time. What we need to do now is completely eliminate random trajectory. I suggest that we change it so that I can only have 1 active piece of bacon out at a time, but I can control the exact trajectory of the single bacon (90 degree angle). This would allow me to interact with neutral opponents while not being able to spam the move like a falco lazer.
I'm not sure why you would want to change Dair. I don't really see that as a problem move.
I would totally be down to clean some of his animations up
I don't really care about the back hit of Fair. It rarely comes into play
Throw animations don't really need to be changed. You can always hold R to tech and then just DI the throw. The Fthrow and Bthrow mix up is one of my favorite parts about GnWs throws.
Maybe make the angles you can DI out of Up throw slightly larger
and of course take away bucket braking if you can. (I know the dev team has meant to take it out for a long time but couldn't due to technical issues)
Up B is fine how it is. If I Up B out of shield and you can't punish the floaty character trying to land, then you need to get better. Doing Up B is a risk. I literally shoot into the air and have to find a way to land. I usually take serious damage or die if I do this wrong vs good people.
You guys shouldn't cry about auto combos either if you aren't even good enough to SDI. The PM dev team made it incredibly easy to SDI in this game.
All his combos can be escaped very easily if you use SDl to go against his momentum. @Lunchables is great at it and takes little damage while escaping my combos... thats it....I don't have a crippling neutral, I lost my broken projectile (which is understandable), and I'm one of the lightest and floaty characters.
A lot of the GnW hate is coming from straight fraudulence.
I like how no one complains about GnW until someone did well at a major...I've literally been doing all this stuff and compete against 3 dev team members all the time. I'm sure they are all aware of the characters limitations by now. The character is amazing in his own right, but he has a ceiling to how far he can go in competitive play.
I'm slowly switching to falco because GnW lacks the tools to deal with a lot of characters at high level.
LOL I've literally been playing this character since everyone told me he was the worst character in the game in 2.5!
its funny to see how times have changed
I used to hate GW with a passion until I researched him more. Things like Angling Up then Down with your shield to shield-grab Dairs, understanding how his recovery actually works (you can swat at him on the way up and he can't really mix up the way it shoots him each time), and how he can't really stop you from not approaching him 90% of the time have turned the MU around for me.
Sure, he has an astounding punish game with a coating of cheese, but the cheese layer is thinner than you'd think and somewhat artificial. His biggest two issues I feel are a combination of his animations and weight, the former being discussed already as an unnecessarily frustrating aspect of learning his MU since it is not uniform how the moves animate (Nair disappears when the hitbox does, but Dtilt stays out making you think it's active like his other attacks, etc). His weight/fall speed combo combined with the Up B/Bucket Brake I feel gives his opponent Marth syndrome in a way. Its like he either dies to a kill combo at like 50%, or you can't kill the guy outside a raw read due to the inability to combo him past a certain % where he'd then live to like 130% or something, which also leads to frustration. Tack on his outstanding punish game and you have a trifecta of rage lol.
I feel that if his animations were cleared up and some cheese was scraped off (Hammer is kinda dumb where it can literally be luck of the draw dictating a match, I've seen a local GW get all 4 stocks of a game off of throw-hammer hail mary's, etc), then learning the MU will be much less infuriating.
Oh, random note on Up B escaping pressure: most GW's will then try to Dair as they come down or to challenge most character's aerials/juggle attmepts by putting the hitbox below themselves. This is actually a decent commitment on his part if you know it's coming, just attack from the sides or wait for when he'll land then attack accordingly, don't try to challenge it straight on.
