Tier List Speculation

[mimgrim]

or you could look at what that whole tier has in common
Ivy top of that tier might make it clearer

The only thing the whole tier has in common are tethers.

And that changes nothing I said.

 

[Zigludo]

Why is AGT even in the game? It's not in Brawl or Melee, did PMBR just invent it because "lol why not"

I'm not saying it should be removed but why was it added tho

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's a product of Brawl mechanics (glide tossing) and directional airdodges. It wasn't a deliberate addition, it just exists because of the unique combination of mechanics.

Sometimes I think it'd be cool if horizontal AGTs got more distance, but then I realize that'd probably be a decent Tink buff

 

[King of Hoboz]

I think Peach's best bet against AGT is to know when to throw a turnip. When doing Ike vs Peach, I often don't get the chance to AGT while I'm offstage because I'm too busy using my QD or my Aether and get hit in the middle of these.

All I can say is use the turnips when your opponent isn't able to grab them in retaliation. Not much, but eh, it's not all hopeless.

 

[Manaconda]

Peach can't really be that bad just cause of her hitbox coverage and speed in close range
it's really hard to actually get hits on a peach that's just trying to not get hit and not really do much else
sure she doesn't threaten everyone with deathballs from across the entire stage but you can't reeeeeally threaten her either
her ability to control the pace of a match and stage control and closing in on people is lacking hard though for sure
Always was and now it's a little notasgood because of how good characters are in PM and her turnips giving some of their goodness to things like her tilts and toad
but if she could actually close gaps and threaten people around the stage even better than melee then basically every other character in the game would be ****ed right up

Not being able to AGT turnips would not make turnips better than they are in Melee, it would make turnips like they were in Melee. That doesn't take into account that catching turnips with Z is easier in PM than in Melee as well. Turnips aren't OP in that game and they wouldn't be OP in PM if they worked similarly. It's an important tool for one of the slowest characters in the game in an environment with more disjointed and projectile heavy characters.

I'm not trying to say 'muh maylay', but the risk of 30 frames to pull a turnip (and the additional ~10 frames before you could even have a hitbox around you) is a big commitment in neutral. The reward you got in that game was proportional to the risk you undertook; you stood still and vulnerable for about 40 frames against an opponent who is most likely faster than you, and now you have a slightly better time in neutral.

I think Peach's best bet against AGT is to know when to throw a turnip. When doing Ike vs Peach, I often don't get the chance to AGT while I'm offstage because I'm too busy using my QD or my Aether and get hit in the middle of these.

All I can say is use the turnips when your opponent isn't able to grab them in retaliation. Not much, but eh, it's not all hopeless.

There are a few situations like this. Ike's QD, Falcon's down-B and up-B, charging up of spacie's up-B. Thanks for the advice, but recoveries in which the opponent doesn't have a hitbox in front of them or aren't in a position to catch items are in the minority.

 

[Leafeon]

I don't see why if the opponent can grab the turnip that she cannot grab it and throw again if she knows her opponent will do so. This is especially regarding bombs and stitches-- when that's on the field I don't think even the peach main should be committing to much that prevents her from catching or otherwise protecting herself from item counterplay.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's a product of Brawl mechanics (glide tossing) and directional airdodges. It wasn't a deliberate addition, it just exists because of the unique combination of mechanics.

Sometimes I think it'd be cool if horizontal AGTs got more distance, but then I realize that'd probably be a decent Tink buff

Huh? Has nothing to do with Glide Tossing. The main thing is that item throws can be done with the c-stick, allowing you to throw during/after an airdodge. You can also glide toss in Melee, but only in the direction you're rolling. I think Marth's forward roll is the prime example. C-stick allowing you to throw up, down, or behind is pretty significant though.

 

[CORY]

I must really suck because I can't block her dtilt or whatever her game's equivalent of that is, at all. I can block her jump-hair-whip thing and some other move involving an overhead kick very consistently though.

I think you're doing it wrong. Only press a button in response to overhead's. Press nothing for the lows.

 

[4tlas]

You understand the difference between those two things, right? Magnet stalling slows your descent. Bucket braking stops all of your momentum after getting hit by an attack. So you can live things you're not supposed to live. They're entirely different. I wish magnet braking was a thing. LOL.

According to patch notes, that was greatly reduced in 3.5, to the point where I've heard many G&W mains say it was pretty much removed.

My point was, why are any of the things in the game in the game? Either because someone explicitly designed it that way or as an emergent result of many attributes. Why does Ness' magnet stall him vertically but not horizontally? Same answer. Would you care to elaborate on what I think you're implying, which is why he shouldn't have it?

Edit:

I've seen people DI on reaction, it is humanly possible.
I guess it is true that if my controller is on the ground and I'm looking at the ceiling I will never DI correctly, they should make DI just happen for me so I don't have to play as hard as M2K or Mango to beat M2K or Mango, that isn't fair.

I was simply pointing out that your information that was intended to replace misinformation was itself misinformation.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I must really suck because I can't block her dtilt or whatever her game's equivalent of that is, at all. I can block her jump-hair-whip thing and some other move involving an overhead kick very consistently though.

You are only supposed to block the overheads, the rest you do nothing for and they get autoblocked (in that particular simulator anyway)
the overheads are where she transforms into a moon crescent, and the one where she plants her hair on the ground and dramatically front flips to kick you from above

 

[Rᴏb]

@ 4tlas I think you're talking about bucket stalling, which you can do once per airtime.

Boiko is talking about bucket braking, which is this. It's really situational.

 

[4tlas]

@ 4tlas I think you're talking about bucket stalling, which you can do once per airtime.

Boiko is talking about bucket braking, which is this. It's really situational.

I'm not an expert at reading the changelog, but I'll post it here.

-Down Special (Bucket)
--Stall is now once per air state.
--Horizontal divider decreased from 1.6667 to 1. Gravity increased from 0.04 to 0.095. Terminal velocity increased from 1.2 to 1.7.
--Damage normalised to 12 damage per energy projectile absorbed as opposed to damaged based on projectile absorbed.

This sounds like they made the bucket stalling once per airtime, significantly reduced the ability of the bucket to halt both horizontal and vertical momentum, and did weird absorption->damage changes that have since been reverted.

Am I reading this correctly?

 

[Rᴏb]

just went and tested it, it feels exactly the same

All of those changes probably affect the effectiveness of the bucket stall, but they definitely don't affect bucket braking.

 

[4tlas]

just went and tested it, it feels exactly the same

Fair enough. Thanks for correcting me!

 

[Boiko]

Another person can correct me, but I believe prior to 3.5, the bucket gave you slight forward momentum, and had a lower terminal velocity which is what the change log is describing. Bucket braking is unchanged.

As demonstrated by that video that Yursaman posted, you can see G&W live when he's not supposed to. Literally just happened at Evo with Mr. Lz and Lucky. Silly stuff.

 

[Manaconda]

I don't see why if the opponent can grab the turnip that she cannot grab it and throw again if she knows her opponent will do so. This is especially regarding bombs and stitches-- when that's on the field I don't think even the peach main should be committing to much that prevents her from catching or otherwise protecting herself from item counterplay.

Peach can definitely do that, but that removes a large portion of the advantage of having a turnip in the first place. It isn't worth the 30 (+10) frames of immobile helplessness Peach goes through to get the turnip if the opponent isn't the one who has to be more careful in the situation. If the opponent doesn't have to commit to shielding, or WD down to catch it (and thus stand still), or catch it in the air and lose aerials (without the possibility of burst movement), then it wasn't worth the turnip pull.

Comparing how MUs like Peach v. Marth happen in Melee and PM, a tough MU for Peach where neutral pretty much depends on Peach getting a turnip (according to Armada), is an easy way to show just how important turnips are to her in Melee and how large a hit PM turnips are to her neutral game.

You are only supposed to block the overheads, the rest you do nothing for and they get autoblocked (in that particular simulator anyway)
the overheads are where she transforms into a moon crescent, and the one where she plants her hair on the ground and dramatically front flips to kick you from above

I didn't know that lol. I feel pretty stupid. My average is 23 frames, so I'm pretty slow.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I don't like Ness. Can we remove him?

 

[Boiko]

I don't like Ness. Can we remove him?

Yes.

 

[FlamingForce]

Yes.

Only if we can get Goku in return

 

[Shadic]

This isn't social.

Stop.

 

[The_NZA]

@ The_NZA
Stay salty my friend. I can use Fox and do 3 times better than with GnW on day 1.
It's people like you that come in and just drop heaps of complaints that get characters changed when they aren't problematic. We all know you hate GnW, you restating it every few pages doesn't change anything. It is honestly people exactly like you that make me want to quit this game because of your extreme negativity towards characters instead of playing the game as it is, the way the developers made it, you'd rather complain until unique traits are nerfed into the ground.

Is the character fairly easy? Yes. Does he have amazing movement? A slightly below average run speed, usable dash dance, good wavedash. Are his moves safe on shield? No. Can you DI out of bair completely or sdi out of it? Yes. Does the landing hitbox of dair have too much hit stun? Probably. Is there counter play to his throws? Yes.

There are multiple characters and traits that I am still dubious about going into 3.6. Some of them are on my character, but I am doing my best to play around them instead of slandering the players of these characters because at the end of the day I love playing this game, and I can take joy out of facing every single character.

I'm sorry you feel that way, man, because i'm not trying to make the game explicitly worse for you to enjoy, and I hope you understand that. I'm simply providing my feedback that this character makes the entire game feel worse for me, similarly to how people felt about Zelda pre-3.5. If you love GnW's design, I think you should shout out your passion and define the lovely things about GnW that make you feel great. That way, people can get a good sense of what stands as good design of the character and whether it outweighs his bad design (if there is any to be found).

But this:

. It is honestly people exactly like you that make me want to quit this game because of your extreme negativity towards characters instead of playing the game as it is, the way the developers made it, you'd rather complain until unique traits are nerfed into the ground.

Isn't the basis for PM. That's the basis for Melee. I'm not trying to throw out a strawman, but PM wasn't designed because of its immutable recipe of traits, pure and sacred, seasoned and cooked by PM developers for us all to either enjoy or not order at all. PM is a community driven game where we all bring our expertise, tastes, and feedback. Its a beta.

I think if you feel strongly about something in the game that makes you not want to play the game as much, you should state it without hesitations. While on some levels admirable, this:

There are multiple characters and traits that I am still dubious about going into 3.6. Some of them are on my character, but I am doing my best to play around them instead of slandering the players of these characters

doesn't progress the game. Martyring your voice doesn't help the developers know when what they are doing works or doesn't work. Expressing it does. And for the record, slandering players anytime is not. cool. Let's take a very talented GnW player in MA named Freeze. Whenever he plays on stream and i'm commentating, he thinks about using secondaries, and I encourage him to play GnW because he does amazing things with that character. Liking his play doesn't preclude me from feeling he's horribly designed.

What I don't like about GnW doesn't have to do with his unique attributes, but it has to do with the combination of unique attributes all put on one character that often combine to reward sloppy play extremely well.

Arguably, 4/5 of his aerials are sexkicks, except for the fact that they are all disjointed and half of them lack sourspots at any point. Something like fair is one of the biggest offenders, where it has a hitbox during the windup above his head, and for the entirety it is out, both of which are equally strong. I've had opponents uthrow to fair me, and I've jumped to escape only to be hit by the startup of fair and sent behind him to my death.

Generally, in this game, sex kicks are considered amazingly powerful partially because they wall off options so well. Normally, disjoints are considered strong in this game, and are compensated by the fact that they just don't last that long or are heavily impacted by timing sourspots (think Marth, Pit, Ike, Metaknight, Bowser as examples. Think Sheik's bair as a counterexample). Rarely do you have someone who has both long acting hitboxes without sourspots that are also disjoints. What this combination means for GnW is that he can try to space you out with one of these tools, and be rewarded if he misses initially and you attempt to punish him too early. You can circumvent this whole relationship if you can outrange him, or easily fox speed your way in when he misses a window, but if you are anyone else you have to dance a very careful line.

Should I rush in too early and still get hit by that sour spotless attack or that weak bair that can combo into fsmash? Or should I attempt to rush in a little later, and get jab grabbed? I'm sure the frame data shows that there are punish windows present, but between the inaccurate animations of these moves, their disjointed-ness, their thorough potency, and the length of their activity, it can be REALLY hard to make the call on when is the right time to go in. And when you guess wrong, you get punished by one of the best combo games or powerful smash attack games into one of the best edge guard games that exists.

Let's say you do guess right, and you go in and start your pressure. Congrats, you made the right call and are now either hitting GnW OR narrowly hitting GnW's shield. Well, he can then up b OOS and have a hitbox protecting him on frame 4, which is the same speed of shine OOS but its bigger and doesn't lock him in place (so you cant swing most smash attacks in anticipation of it for example). If you actually hit GnW, you can combo him for a couple of hits, but then he will use his upb to get out of the situation with the only true combo escape that still exists in Project M.

When you break it down, approaching GnW in neutral requires tight timing, with failure resulting in a large punish against you, and with success resulting in a small reward. This all comes with the addition of some of the most powerful and favorable launch angled smashes in the game and an unorthodox projectile that can entirely cover him and combo into his amazing punishes/smash attacks. People like to somehow pretend Bacon isn't good, but its actually IMO amazing. Consider how it synergizes with the long lasting disjointed nature of his aerials, and the punishes he gets out of it, and you realize what it does is disincentives people committing into his space.

If you go in when the bacon is out, you could be hit by bacon and combo'd into jab-grab, judgement hammer, fsmash, usmash. If you go in when the bacon is subsiding, he can already have a fair or bair out that you are walking yourself into. If you go in preemptively, the starting pan hitbox can hit you, which if you are near the edge of the stage, will semispike you. Again, we have a guessing game that is very hard to crack--which some characters may be able to simply ignore if they can outspace him or outspeed him, but for many it is entirely frustrating.

The natural answer when this was Link in 3.02 and we were takling about boomerang was simply--well just throw out a hitbox, hit the boomerang with a long lasting hitbox and hit Link with the weak hit to get it started. Well, that logic doesn't apply here because GnW can also bait you to do just that, and simply crouch cancel dtilt you with one of the best defensive tools this side of Up B OOS.

Note, this is all being stated without even talking about the flexibility of his (top 5 imo) punish game, incredible recovery, amazing edge guard game, insane throw game, janky tech roll animations, strange animations altogether, bucket braking, and judgement hammer.

Between his coverage, long lasting hitboxes, favorable angles, jank animations, and awesome complementary tools, GnW becomes a fairly anti-meta and unintuitive character to fight in a really unfun way. Much like 3.02 Zelda, he isn't unbalanced per se....but he isn't very fun either. I kind of respect that the PMDT made him a very binary character---on and off with his attacks, with no in betweens (as that seems fitting with his character identity), but is it really that bad to ask some of these design decisions to be turned around?

If you seem to follow my posts (which it sounds like you do), then you already know I'm not for the "nerf to the ground" approach, but I do think this character needs MK/Bowser/Pit level changes, and they've been overdue for a nearly a year.

I would like to start by removing the ability to jump after UpB all the time, adding some sourspots to his aerials to help him combo better in lieu of jump after Up B nerfs, delaying the rise of upb (not just the hitbox timing) by 3-5 frames, making dtilt's hitbox a bunch of small hitbox's that reflect the animation without it being a massive circle in front of him, cleaning up all of his animations and tech rolls, and buffing him else where (like his dash dance speed). I don't really know as I'm not the GnW player but I would love to hear from GnW players who sympathize with me that he's kind of busted on what the proper changed would be to keep him strong while decreasing what makes him frustrating.

Edit:

Two nerfs I considered for jumping out of up b was to make it so you have to initiate it from the ground in order to Dj. Do you have to uthrow dash upb and then jump. This would nerf his recovery and punish game a little, would retain the safeness of upb OOS but make it worse to do in the middle of combos.

The other nerf I considered instead is to make it so landing after using an aerial post up b would have a set amount of lag (similar to Ddd canceled upb special fall animation). It would make it so shielding a high recovery into aerial would make GnW punishable.

 

[Trollinguy]

Yeah guys,

It's salty ***** about how a character needs nerfed.

 

[NyTR0]

It's impossible to make everyone happy.

 

[1FD]

Screw all the characters

I got an idea for an archetype
someone who's really fast and loaded with kill moves, and has a bunch of really fast pokes and pressure tools to convert into them
so they can play a really threatening fast paced in and out game and blow things up early
just like the most epic aggro character that has to avoid some trades because he gets knocked down easy, while baiting and punishing almost anything the opponent does so it creates a cool match up like that where they're trying to fake each other out and corner each other with safe moves and speed stuff
we'll call them Fax

Another could be a character with lots of long lasting disjointed moves and some speed highly vertically mobile juggles across stages
but they can die in a few hits so it's a game of walling out opponents safely while they try prodding at him with things
all these laggy moves will have good coverage and hitboxes so he can protect himself while putting on pressure
we'll call them Gdubya

would be sweet to see these 2 kinds of characters battle each other in a smash game
lets do that in PM

oh look

I'm happy

 

[Leafeon]

Peach can definitely do that, but that removes a large portion of the advantage of having a turnip in the first place. It isn't worth the 30 (+10) frames of immobile helplessness Peach goes through to get the turnip if the opponent isn't the one who has to be more careful in the situation. If the opponent doesn't have to commit to shielding, or WD down to catch it (and thus stand still), or catch it in the air and lose aerials (without the possibility of burst movement), then it wasn't worth the turnip pull.

But... they do have to commit to those things in order to force her into the situation where she must commit to those things.

e; if they don't, then her game remains the same as it was in melee. So, they do have to protect themselves from it by committing to trying to catch, shield, or dodge it. Those options are the same in melee except catching is easier in PM, and the ability to instant throw it back via agt is there. I'm not really seeing what a huge difference this is.

 

[RelaxAlax]

So Mario is middle of the road as hell isn't he? He barely gets talked about lol I feel he's pretty balanced at this point and is still very good

and that's my post for the year thanks for having me

 

[Rachman]

Game and watch is fine they just need to fix the obscenely jank animations he has. Like the point of animations is to convey info and his fails to do so accurately. That's literally the point of animations AFAIK and his fails in that regard.

 

[Manaconda]

snip

Catching items with an airdodge and AGT make a big difference.

So typically Peach will approach by having the turnip thrown in front of her and having her follow it. This is the best approach option in Melee because you can act based on what they do in response to the turnip.

In Melee, out of a dash dance you had to wavedash down and press A to catch it on the ground. When you catch it grounded, you're temporarily stationary, and Peach is still moving right at you. In PM you can wavedash away and catch a turnip in front of you. If you did this in Melee you just lost some stage control, but in PM you lost some stage control but you have a turnip to threaten Peach with in addition to having burst movement. Why bother shielding and dealing with her shield pressure? You can dodge and catch and if you so choose to, throw at the same time.

In Melee, if you caught it in the air, you lose access to your normals and Peach could possibly throw out an aerial before you manage to throw the turnip back at her. In that game, without AGT, you're pretty much temporarily stuck in the air depending on your character. In PM you can move away from Peach while throwing the turnip.

This is all in addition to possibly recovering with them offstage.

Against opponents who know what they're doing, Peach's turnips do not need to be respected the same way they are in Melee. And yes, obviously Peach can catch them right back, but the point of having committed to plucking the turnip is so you don't have to commit as much as your opponent in your approach.

 

[Trollinguy]

Soooooo peach got nerfed on accident. Is this really a terrible thing considering how she got some of her moves improved? She still seems pretty threatening.

 

[1FD]

Peach has a Dsmash
It breaks my shield
One of the best for it in the game

Peach has Toad
It breaks my shield better than Dsmash
Her Dsmash

o.O

 

[Soft Serve]

People underrated how easy it is to just z drop before you do the aerial you wanted if you have someone else's item in hand

Turnips aren't what make peach good, so many characters crumble to just fc nair and proper spacing/edgeguarding. Also fsmash is rediculously underrated, in melee it had a **** ton of utility in the ditto (anti airs fc fairs from other peaches) and now that it's set after the first one I think fsmash is broken and easy to control. Dair> jump footstool > djc/fc fair is also underutilized, peach bomber is actually good, dthrow dacus is amazing. Peach is a hard character to approach, really good character and honestly people lacking item counterplay doesn't effect peach as much as it does diddy/rob

 

[Manaconda]

Soooooo peach got nerfed on accident. Is this really a terrible thing considering how she got some of her moves improved? She still seems pretty threatening.

Her improved moves are utilt, ftilt, jab1, fsmash and Peach Bomber. The first two aren't used very often. I've occasionally seen utilt used to shark platforms (floating + nair/uair is better because it has less endlag and you can follow up on it) or as a combo extender. I use ftilt on accident when I try to dash attack. It has so much endlag and is hard to follow up on.

jab1 means her opponent doesn't move too far away for jab2 to connect when they're at like 100+ percent.

Fsmashes are ordered now but they also had their reverse hitboxes behind them removed (I thought that was wicked janky though so good riddance). I really don't see how it has that much more utility than it did before, and it doesn't really break MUs. I can't possibly see how it could be broken.

Peach Bomber is a move you use for hard reads. It is a good move now. But 20 frames of startup, a really loud audio cue, and going straight through shields doesn't make it so amazing that her turnips don't need fixing.

Dthrow --> DACUS is really good too, can't lie.

But turnips are ABSOLUTELY part of what made Peach good in Melee, what are you even saying? I know that characters in this game don't just joust at each other and the character with the most disjoint wins, but unlike other characters, her slow mobility and shortest wavedash in the game make it harder to punish disjointed opponents than other faster characters for baiting out their moves. Turnips allowed her to approach enemies with the range to normally keep them out. This game has way more disjointed characters than Melee does. Her improved moves don't help her approach.

Item counterplay does hurt diddy/ROB, but having them lie on stage and being near them makes it harder for the opponent to approach because you're in a position to punish their attempts to remove it/get to you. I admittedly don't know as much about their items, but by dropping it on the ground, part of their goal of stage control is accomplished. They also move through the air faster and are harder to react to.

If Peach could only pluck a single turnip for stage use at a time and have it sit on stage, that would be great, but they're slow moving objects that disappear upon hitting the ground.

Peach has a Dsmash
It breaks my shield
One of the best for it in the game

Peach has Toad
It breaks my shield better than Dsmash
Her Dsmash

o.O

Yes, dsmash is part of her shield pressure. Angling it helps mitigate that. And Toad is garbage. You might notice almost no good Peach main uses it. It's no different than in Melee, where Armada and MacD aren't really known for their Toad use. The only way it broke your shield is if you sent a projectile towards her, ran up in front of her, and shielded in front of her, in which case you need to rethink your approaches.

 

[The_NZA]

Her improved moves are utilt, ftilt, jab1, fsmash and Peach Bomber. The first two aren't used very often. I've occasionally seen utilt used to shark platforms (floating + nair/uair is better because it has less endlag and you can follow up on it) or as a combo extender. I use ftilt on accident when I try to dash attack. It has so much endlag and is hard to follow up on.

jab1 means her opponent doesn't move too far away for jab2 to connect when they're at like 100+ percent.

Fsmashes are ordered now but they also had their reverse hitboxes behind them removed (I thought that was wicked janky though so good riddance). I really don't see how it has that much more utility than it did before, and it doesn't really break MUs. I can't possibly see how it could be broken.

Peach Bomber is a move you use for hard reads. It is a good move now. But 20 frames of startup, a really loud audio cue, and going straight through shields doesn't make it so amazing that her turnips don't need fixing.

Dthrow --> DACUS is really good too, can't lie.

But turnips are ABSOLUTELY part of what made Peach good in Melee, what are you even saying? I know that characters in this game don't just joust at each other and the character with the most disjoint wins, but unlike other characters, her slow mobility and shortest wavedash in the game make it harder to punish disjointed opponents than other faster characters for baiting out their moves. Turnips allowed her to approach enemies with the range to normally keep them out. This game has way more disjointed characters than Melee does. Her improved moves don't help her approach.

Item counterplay does hurt diddy/ROB, but having them lie on stage and being near them makes it harder for the opponent to approach because you're in a position to punish their attempts to remove it/get to you. I admittedly don't know as much about their items, but by dropping it on the ground, part of their goal of stage control is accomplished. They also move through the air faster and are harder to react to.

If Peach could only pluck a single turnip for stage use at a time and have it sit on stage, that would be great, but they're slow moving objects that disappear upon hitting the ground.



Yes, dsmash is part of her shield pressure. Angling it helps mitigate that. And Toad is garbage. You might notice almost no good Peach main uses it. It's no different than in Melee, where Armada and MacD aren't really known for their Toad use. The only way it broke your shield is if you sent a projectile towards her, ran up in front of her, and shielded in front of her, in which case you need to rethink your approaches.

I believe her 2nd jump was also improved and she can now AGT to mix up her recoveries. AGT allows her to safely wait out everyone's invincibility without expending any float.purely by double jumping and AGTing turnips upwards.

 

[Manaconda]

Double jump was improved from Brawl, it's identical from Melee. And waiting out invincibility was barely an issue with 3 (?) seconds of float, compared to the 2 seconds of invincibility.

And even though it's counterintuitive, she has more options to get back on stage horizontally after waiting it out offstage than to get back down after waiting above her opponent.

Not trying to sound like a whiny ***** (though I'm probably accomplishing it) but these things don't change the fact that the purpose of turnips is to help one of the slowest characters approach other characters that are hard to approach, whether they be laser or arrow spammers or simply have more range than her.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

So out of curiosity, how many more years before the peach meta realizes they can throw the turnip at the opponent off stage, and then simply go hit the opponent who is trying to agt with nair, dair>nair, or fair. It will easily go through the turnip.

I agree this doesn't help with the approaching in neutral thing against some characters, but the comment that turnips are not good at edgeguarding is just loud and wrong.

 

[1FD]

People underrated how easy it is to just z drop before you do the aerial you wanted if you have someone else's item in hand

Peach is a hard character to approach

Truth in mah face raht thuurrr

I get combod by ftilts and dtilts all day

Toad isn't that bad
marth has to mix up empty jump in his poke game or he could eat 20% or a broken shield if peach presses b into his dtilt or fair somewhere
it's something for sure
beats tink bombs and rangs and falco lasers all day too
gives the opponent something to think about cause if they give peach enough space between the throwing out of a move and her, they get smacked

 

[Boiko]

So out of curiosity, how many more years before the peach meta realizes they can throw the turnip at the opponent off stage, and then simply go hit the opponent who is trying to agt with nair, dair>nair, or fair. It will easily go through the turnip.

I agree this doesn't help with the approaching in neutral thing against some characters, but the comment that turnips are not good at edgeguarding is just loud and wrong.

Yes, that is an option, but there's always the alternative that you commit to that read, and that they don't go for the glide toss, and just recover and now they get back safely.

I'm not stating a stance on this, I really don't know. I'm just saying there is a lot of counter play options on both sides.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

My current tier list opinions of 3.6b (Characters not ordered within tiers):
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

and are actually stupidly broken this patch. Godlike recovery, easy access combos, easy to land kill moves, and extremely quick aerials.

I'm late for this. Are you serious? Tell me this is a joke. I swear i feel like this is a smash 4 chart.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm late for this. Are you serious? Tell me this is a joke. I swear i feel like this is a smash 4 chart.

STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHP

So Mario is middle of the road as hell isn't he? He barely gets talked about lol I feel he's pretty balanced at this point and is still very good

and that's my post for the year thanks for having me

Nah, I'd say Mario is really good this patch. Character has tons of solid options and is good at basically everything. He flies under the radar because he's considered very simple/fundamental and thus "boring", but every now and then I'll do **** like throw fireballs mid-combo and it works for no apparent reason so whatever, he's fun.

 

[Jonyc128]

STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHP


Nah, I'd say Mario is really good this patch. Character has tons of solid options and is good at basically everything. He flies under the radar because he's considered very simple/fundamental and thus "boring", but every now and then I'll do **** like throw fireballs mid-combo and it works for no apparent reason so whatever, he's fun.

Yea Mario is super fun to play, good combos, great edgeguard game, and great movement. Only downsides are his stubby limbs