Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

To be fair, NZA, myself, and a few others have expressed concerns about G&W far prior to Mr. Lz's outstanding performance. And me before even getting the work from you.

I understand where you're coming from regarding punishing upb OoS, but that's very contingent upon if it hits you or not. And of course it's not just simple as "bait it and punish." If that were the case, Samus' upb would be notably worse, but it's not. In fact, it's one of the best defensive options in the game. The big difference here, is that Samus has to commit to it when she uses it. She has no option other than to come straight down. Game and Watch can still threaten with aerials and can evade someone going in the air after him with by jumping. So it's not really as simple as just going after him. Then take into account the big chunk of the cast that have low vertical mobility and it gets even more difficult.

To me, an escape option should have a very notable downside, not just "puts you in the air." Bowser's upb OoS is very strong initially but then has obvious lag toward the end. Samus' upb puts her into free fall, where combined with her very slow fall speed, means a lot of characters can cover her landing if she's not edge cancelling or landing on a top platform. But Game and Watch's is very different. We already discussed that reactionary SDI to a 4 frame hit box is essentially impossible, so instead, you have to anticipate the option and be ready to SDI. Then, say you do avoid it, it becomes a dance in the air. Do you wait for him to commit to an aerial? Wait for him to jump? Chase him into the air? Try to punish his landing? etc. etc. I personally don't feel that an escape option should have such a significant degree of variability to it.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

 

[Juushichi]

different characters have different things that you have to punish in different ways.

sometimes, your specific character has to think of unorthodox ways to punish some things other characters can do in orthodox ways.

this is a good thing. needs more lab work

 

[steelguttey]

I think if we are truly trying to build a competitive game, then we must remove the random aspects so results are not skewed.

TRUUUUUUUU

 

[Juushichi]

I agree exactly. So let's remove Olimar.

 

[JOE!]

I really dig DF's idea for making the hammer go up per hit. Would it reset to 1 if you whiff tho? lol

 

[Life]

Randomness has a place in competitive games IMO, especially in cases like character movesets where it's pretty much opt-in. It just has to not be overbearing. 9 might be pushing it, but it's farmable and GnW can't get it for the next two hammers if he misses so there's a window where you know it won't happen--which to be fair would be more helpful if some of the other numbers weren't also insanely good (8 comes to mind, as well as the fire/dark ones which I forget which numbers they are).

Still think the animation stuff is WAY more relevant though.

 

[Shockbound]

I suggest that we change it so that I can only have 1 active piece of bacon out at a time, but I can control the exact trajectory of the single bacon (90 degree angle). This would allow me to interact with neutral opponents while not being able to spam the move like a falco lazer.

To clear some things up for those of you reading this, there are exactly 5 different trajectories that bacon may be launched in. A number from 1 to 5 is picked at random whenever Chef is used, but it behaves similarly to Judge in that the same number cannot be picked again if it has already appeared within the last two uses of the move. A low number means that the bacon will not be sent very far horizontally, but a high number means that it will travel much further at the cost of some vertical distance.

The trajectory of the bacon can be manipulated further by having the control stick above or below the deadzone on the frame that the bacon exits the pan; this is known as bacon angling. This limits the amount of available trajectories to the uppermost or lowermost three (1, 2, and 3 for up and 3, 4, and 5 for down). Without angling, each trajectory has an equal chance of appearing.

A number from 1 to 5 is still picked at random regardless of the angle chosen (with appropriate limitations based on what numbers were picked on the last two uses of the move) when Chef is used. What angling actually does is modify the randomly generated number by 2, with a down angle adding 2 to the trajectory value while an up angle subtracts 2 from the trajectory value. If the modified number falls outside of the range of 1 through 5, it behaves as if it was never modified at all and just keeps its original value.

A non-angled piece of bacon will produce the following numbers at a likelihood of 20% for each listed number:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5

An up-angled piece of bacon will produce the following numbers at a likelihood of 20% for each listed number:
1, 2, 1, 2, 3

A down-angled piece of bacon will produce the following numbers at a likelihood of 20% for each listed number:
3, 4, 5, 4, 5

Now, keep in mind that the Judge-like number manipulation aspect of Chef applies to the randomly generated number, not the modified number. This means that the same trajectory can appear back-to-back with itself. Trajectory number 3, for instance, can appear any amount of times in a row if the angle is switched with every use of Chef (up, none, down, up, none, down, etc). If the angle is up and the number 5 is generated, trajectory number 3 will appear because the randomly generated number has 2 subtracted from it due to it being an up-angle (5 - 2 = 3). If the angle is down and the number 1 is generated, trajectory number 3 will still appear because the randomly generated number has 2 added to it due to it being a down-angle (1 + 2 = 3). Lastly, if the number 3 is generated when there is no angle, trajectory number 3 will still appear because it doesn't get modified.

The only way that Chef can get trajectory number 3 again would be if an up-angle generates the number 5 because a down-angle can no longer produce it (the number 1 was generated within the previous two uses of Chef) and a non-angled Chef cannot produce it either (the number 3 was generated within the previous two uses of Chef). The up-angled Chef that produced the number 5 was not used within the last two uses of the move so this puts the number 5 back in the available pool of numbers that can be generated for the next use of the move, which will get 2 subtracted from it to create trajectory number 3 if it is generated again.

While it's not really a practical example, it presents an interesting way to manipulate the trajectory to do something very specific. A more practical example would be storing the numbers 2 and 4 within Chef's memory because using an up-angle has a 66% likelihood to produce trajectory number 1, the highest possible traveling trajectory (picks from 1, 1, and 3). However, using a down-angle would simultaneously have the same 66% likelihood to produce trajectory number 5, the furthest possible traveling trajectory (picks from 3, 5, and 5).

I'd type more, but I currently need to head out to work. I might add more to this post later, but I'll leave this post off by saying that I've been researching G&W extensively for MONTHS and have been compiling tons and tons of information that will eventually compile into a guide so that everyone can learn about this character's many, many unique properties.

 

[steelguttey]

people like to talk about GOOD rng and really the only GOOD rng in any fighting game off the top of my head is faust in gg because of how he has to adapt to it and theres no rng thats the best for a certain matchup really. just rng thats good for him. olimar has to adapt to his rng, but it isnt healthy like faust. because olimar's matchups depend on how good his rng is. matchups go from even to 6-4 in his favor or in the enemies favor depending on what the wii wants you to pull. the balance of olimar's pikmin is not balanced around rng and thats my biggest problem with it

 

[CORY]

people like to talk about GOOD rng and really the only GOOD rng in any fighting game off the top of my head is faust in gg because of how he has to adapt to it and theres no rng thats the best for a certain matchup really. just rng thats good for him. olimar has to adapt to his rng, but it isnt healthy like faust. because olimar's matchups depend on how good his rng is. matchups go from even to 6-4 in his favor or in the enemies favor depending on what the wii wants you to pull. the balance of olimar's pikmin is not balanced around rng and thats my biggest problem with it

there's zappa's rng, but you kinda have to learn to play 4 or 5 different characters to make his work (though, one of them is literally a god).

 

[The_NZA]

A lot of the GnW hate is coming from straight fraudulence.


I like how no one complains about GnW until someone did well at a major...I've literally been doing all this stuff and compete against 3 dev team members all the time. I'm sure they are all aware of the characters limitations by now. The character is amazing in his own right, but he has a ceiling to how far he can go in competitive play.
I'm slowly switching to falco because GnW lacks the tools to deal with a lot of characters at high level.
LOL I've literally been playing this character since everyone told me he was the worst character in the game in 2.5!
its funny to see how times have changed

Let's get something straight, since this patsy gets hidden behind every time a character has design flaws. I've been complaining about bad design and projected OPness of certain characters far before they became tournament winners, and usually consistently based on changelogs. In 3.02, I felt that Zelda was a design abomination, and I expressed as much before any Zelda won anything. When 3.5 came out, I explicitly noted in the changelog that Lucario and GnW were going to be ridiculous as they were hardly touched or buffed (and I still complained about Snakes degenerate design in spite of the balance for that character not being so bad). In 3.6, I've pointed out the absurdity that Wario, GnW, and Ike were hardly touched, which is surely going to be problematic on a design level. I'm consistent as consistent can be. The only difference is no one else has the knowledge or care to enter that conversation until someone on the national stage gives everyone something to tangible to look at. Stop.relying.on.this.patsy.to.protect.your.character.

You're right, I'm sorry I did that @ The_NZA , it's just that I can't think of another reason to spread misinformation other than character johns. You said G&W had 4 sexkicks. You said he could bucket brake, DJ and airdodge after an upb and was therefore safe to descend. You said he was the only character that could escape combos. You said that G&W player could "accidentally" punish you as if other characters couldn't do the exact same thing and as if this was an actual argument for bad design; it basically boiled down to "if I don't expect it, it's a problem with the character". You said shine was better designed than G&W's upb. SHINE. You said that upb didn't lock you in place compared to shine, when it actually does. You admitted yourself that, when you were talking about G&W's strengths, which in other words means that while his strengths can be overbearing for certain characters, this isn't the case with others. You responded to one of my posts by saying, which not only tells me that you completely ignored my post, but that you think that it was more subjective than your own!

Let's get something straight. Nothing I've mentioned in the last few days of debate which has sprung on this entire conversatoin has been misinformation--and your assertion that it is character johns is part of what makes it not so fun to discuss these things with you. Your strategy for disarming my arguments while we have this discussion has been to

1. assert i'm johning,

2. hyperlink moments from my 2-3 month old stream matches where I was bodied by a GnW

3. make some meaningful insights about your actual impressions of GnW

4. Imply things that are unverifiable like "you probably don't study the matchup. I actually play the character and study the mtachups when I'm confronted with characters I do poorly against.

This conversation can happen with less of 1 and 2 and you can just ask me if i've been studying the character and practicing him, and I would tell you I have. Regardless, if i'm really so clueless, we shouldn't have to play the "i think i'm experienced", "no your not" game.

Let me piecemeal answer these "misinformations" now.

You said G&W had 4 sexkicks.

You define the preeminent features of sex kicks is that they have quick start up, last a long time, get weaker with time. IMO the quick startup feature is not the most important unifying aspect of all sex kicks--what sets them apart from every other aerial someone possesses is that the sex kick "covers space" forever, allowing you to utilize it as an imprecise tool that follows your movement, and can therefore "catch" people out of neutral, regardless of the option they are pursuing (dash dance, spot dodge, WD back, etc.). A lot of aerials in an individual characters kit can be a quick startup aerial, but usually there is only one aerial that is active for a long time. There are a few exceptions. Link's aerials, Sheik's bair, and GnW.

Saying GnW has 4 sex kicks is obviously a little hyperbolic as they are literally not sex kicks, but my point got across to the majority of people that read it. His aerials are active for a lot longer than other peoples'.

You yourself pointed out that 4 of his aerials are active for 10+ frames, with a couple approaching the 20+ window. I realize you can point to the fact that other peoples sexkicks are active for 30+ frames, but those later frames are relatively inconsequential in a fast shffl game. Being active for too long is actually worse since it takes longer to mix up your opponent if you are coming from high up.

You said he could bucket brake, DJ and airdodge after an upb and was therefore safe to descend.

I said that like...two weeks ago or more. And when you or someone pointed out that he can't air dodge after upb -> jump, I apologized for being misinformed, and noted that he still could bucket break, double jump, and then aerial which provides plenty of mixup options on the way down. When you further emphasize that his hitbox all cover one strict side of him with a lot of disjoints (dair, bair, fair), being able to double jump juke someone and come down with one of those aerials is actually REALLY hard to play around. The point you and Dakpo are saying that this come down strategy is actually super disadvantageous to GnW because he's a floaty is pretty untrue, when he can double jump juke the direction you are guessing, and throw out a wall to protect himself in reaction to whichever new adaption you have to make. Again, for SOME characters, this is no trouble at all. Fox's dash dance is good enough that he can readjust to the double jump, or Marth's disjoints don't really care about GnW's hitboxes and can outspace him. For other characters, its really tight and hard to catch a falling GnW, and while GnW is disadvantaged, it's not too bad for him.

You said he was the only character that could escape combos.

If your counter points are Zelda and Luigi, that's not really close to the same thing. Luigi's nair is a frame 3 move that covers a little below him. It doesn't strictly get him out of the situation, it deflects people who commit too hard to their preprogrammed combos. It's easy to bait out the nair like you would a smash 4 air dodge, and punish him from the side or whatever. Zelda doesn't really have escapes...she's way floatier than GnW and has fairly useless aerials for coming down. Nayru's love is her only option and it commits her for many frames and isn't that disjointed around her. GnW literally jumps out of the situation, resetting it into some kind of a staggered neutral where he is at a disadvantage but has effectively escaped punish game for many people who fight him. If I pkfire him and he mashes upb, he will go straight into the air after the first hit of pkfire, and then I have to play outfield catcher, except the ball can jump again and throw a wall in anticipation of my approach angle. As Boiko mentioned, other characters with escapes like Samus or Bowser are also at a disadvantage, but their punishable positions are consistent with way less options (special fall/endlag).

As for comparing it to shine as a combo escape, I know when i'm comboing Fox in the air, his shine only matters if he uses it the moment I'm in contact with him. If I'm pressuring his shield, his shine only matters if I get too close. Shine doesn't actually protect you or change the outcome of an engagement except when the aggressor presumes they are committing to a frame perfect combo, and they are wrong. If i'm DJC uairing Fox, and I know i'm not being frame perfect, him shining is just going to keep him locked in the air, making it easier for me to continue what i'm doing. GnW's upb changes the outcome EVERY time the opponent is not frame perfect. Every time the combo is not frame perfect, they have to play a game called "can I juggle the GnW", and its a scenario of reads, reactions, a new gane of Rock Paper Scissors where the GnW still possesses his options at a slight disadvantage, and it can actually end with the GnW winning! That's why I think GnW's up b is a dumb combo escape, even in its current incarnation.

You said that G&W player could "accidentally" punish you as if other characters couldn't do the exact same thing and as if this was an actual argument for bad design

You can argue anything general like that if you want, but I'd love to see some examples of what you mean. The reason why I think this is more unique to GnW has to do with how he is one of the few characters that has moves with multiple utility, deceptive animations, and flexibility to allow him to capitalize on accidents in a way that other players don't. GnW's long lasting hitboxes means precision doesn't really matter, and you can cover options imprecisely if you feel like it (he was probably trying to cover Lucky's WD on stage approach but got a delayed side b). Another example is how his upb has a lot of utility and it can garner you flexible kills here and here. The core thing about these two clips is that pretty obvious mistakes were made, but they wouldn't ordinarily combo into kills for other characters. Normally, the pan is used as a zoning projectile, but over here it helps GnW get a gimp. Note: I couldn't find good footage of the 3rd hit of dair popping someone up for an usmash, but let's pretend I found a video of someone dropping shield a little too early after blocking the initial dair.

All of those kills stem from crucial mistakes GnW's opponents made, but they also combo into kills that the GnW had no intention of getting until the conversion accidentally occurred in neutral (much like the Fox Sakurai combo). GnW's natural tool kit is really good for leading these surprise conversions into kills, and that aspect of his design bothers me.

You responded to one of my posts by saying, which not only tells me that you completely ignored my post, but that you think that it was more subjective than your own!

First off, I don't think my opinions are less subjective than yours and if that came across, i'm sorry. The fact is, much of your post boiled down to "sounds like you are making mistakes and you should play better. These aspects of GnWs design are in the acceptable range of character uniqueness, and at the point the opponent is making mistakes that you are making and is taking damage, I think his design is fine". I'm not going to argue against that. That's where game design IS subjective. Some people think 3.02 Zelda was the pinnacle of good design, and I call those people crazy. But I realize that their opinion of whats fun and what isn't doesn't reflect my opinion of what is fun and what isn't.

In this case, I find GnW to be maddeningly unfun. I broke down the push and pull of how bacon interacts with disjointed long lasting hitboxes, and how they interact with his jab to grab, his dtilt, and his punish game. I pointed out that if you are neither fast nor disjointed, a lot of playing around GnW involves guessing where there are openings, but due to the potency of his walling, and variability of bacon, those guesses are hard to make. YES, you can get better at making those guesses, as you've asserted. But everytime you make those guesses and you guess wrong, you get punished with one of the best punish games there is. When you guess right, you are punishing the best escape artist in all of PM. When you want to edge gaurd him, he retains most of his options. In addition his animations are crazy, his combos can start from a lot of places, and he always has the flexibility to combo in exactly the way he wants to, even off of his stray hits.

It isn't misinformation to say those aspects of his design aren't well enough balanced against his floatiness, or aren't conducive to a fun experience. Its just how I and many other people feel.

I would also argue GnW seems way worse on paper than he actually is, because his aerials do have a reliable amount of lag on paper. But his aerials are also disjointed by a fair amount, so if he's spacing well, you actually don't break through the pressure that easily, even with something like bair being -6 on shield.

Finally, I just want to say, people are way underestimating the ceiling of GnW. People think he's worse than he is because some characters can deal with his polarizing style of play, but I presently feel he is a top 10 character in the game. We don't have a lot of datapoints, but I've always felt like Dakpo and Sbad weren't pushing his absurd punish game, and its good to see someone like LZ do just that. This character can kill you and edge guard you better than almost anyone in the game. I kind of can't wait to see the beast unlocked.

 

[Zigludo]

Randomness has a place in competitive games IMO.

well IMO there's no argument to be made in favor of it other than "it's funny". the exact same interaction between two players in a given situation shouldn't sometimes result in a KO and sometimes not, based solely on rng. the random factor doesn't add anything to the game.

while we're at it Luigi sideB lol. 3.6 put even more emphasis on randomness than previous patches. whose idea was it to make a Misfire that you save for half the match so much worse than a random first try Misfire? I'm sure every Luigi who combos or strings into sideB to KO was disappointed by that change

 

[Sardonyx]

well IMO there's no argument to be made in favor of it other than "it's funny". the exact same interaction between two players in a given situation shouldn't sometimes result in a KO and sometimes not, based solely on rng. the random factor doesn't add anything to the game.

while we're at it Luigi sideB lol. 3.6 put even more emphasis on randomness than previous patches. whose idea was it to make a Misfire that you save for half the match so much worse than a random first try Misfire? I'm sure every Luigi who combos or strings into sideB to KO was disappointed by that change

I main peach buuuut, the **** she can pull out of the ground can be a bit much too.

 

[Strong Badam]

Finally, I just want to say, people are way underestimating the ceiling of GnW. People think he's worse than he is because some characters can deal with his polarizing style of play, but I presently feel he is a top 10 character in the game. We don't have a lot of datapoints, but I've always felt like Dakpo and Sbad weren't pushing his absurd punish game, and its good to see someone like LZ do just that. This character can kill you and edge guard you better than almost anyone in the game. I kind of can't wait to see the beast unlocked.

I pushed the character's punish game to similar levels that Mr Lz and Dakpo did (although admittedly I did not dedicated myself enough to learn how to play without tap jump for his UpB combos and my game suffered notably as a result). The issue is that his punish game becomes WAY worse at high/top level play because of the effectiveness of SDI. Against humanoid characters (which, mind you, make up about 90% of the high tier metagame), G&W's punish game devolves into U-throw -> U-air -> nothing or bair because my opponent has SDI'd so far behind me that I can't do anything even if I waveland the uair backwards. I do U-throw nair instead because it's better damage, and then my combo is over and I have to work with a stagger situation. Which is still good but obviously worse than what people think of when they think of G&W's combos.

So yes I absolutely understand people who consider G&W's combos to be ridiculous, because they absolutely are until a certain level of skill is reached. After that his punish game is notably worse than that of several other characters who do not lose to good dash dancing in neutral.
And please note that this isn't a 3.0-esque situation where players of a character tells you to "git gud" to develop counterplay to their character's questionable attribute and we never actually see that reflected in the metagame. This is a real application of gameplay mechanics that is easily observable within the metagame, now, if you aren't selective in where you gather your data from.

 

[Soft Serve]

Even when I play gnw in melee I get people complaining about how ambiguous his animations are for moves like fair and dtilt, and how dumb his throw animations are. It's dumb that to know when the hitbox ends you have to have the timing nearly memorized as opposed to learning the timing through watching the animation. Upair is pretty busted but 100% avoidable with proper di&sdi usage so that's not really much of an issue. Hammer is really rediculous, there's actually only one bad one to hit with, which is 1. All the others either straight up kill, combo into anything, semi spike, or set up for other things (stun/shield dmg and 8's ice block especially). The healing one heals 10% on miss ffs, it's just cheese and he doesn't need it. I think people massively underate his neutral but I agree it's on the weeker end (and vs a dash dance based disjointed character it's horrid).

The character doesn't really need nerfs, i'd just like to be able to know where he's throwing me, and when the hitboxes end. Hammer is really dumb though.

 

[Experiment 5]

@ The_NZA : I'm sorry. I don't like to fire shots like this but I'm sick of you fearmongering about my character. I've been quiet about this for too long and I feel like I need to say something.

For non-SG people: I'm Bees! (changing my tag to Actias Luna soon but whatever). I'm 5-0 against NZA in bracket sets, one of which is a four-stock on stream. I play gdubs in tourney and no one else.

I know you're angry about me being 5-0 against you in bracket, and I know that makes you think game and watch is OP. Yes, that's me minimizing your complaints. I think that, in this case, it has merit.

I've seen you slash open this wound on this thread a number of times now, and every time you spout wild accusations about things gdubs does that may or may not be problematic. Here's the thing: if gdubs was really broken and good, wouldn't there be more top players playing him? People have definitely shown they are not opposed to picking up a top-tier character solely because they're top tier. Why not gdubs? Tons of people picked him up when 3.5 came out because of the changelog and your fearmongering about the supposed power of the character. How many of those people are still playing gdubs today? I remember the day 3.5 dropped, and nearly half the room was playing Ganon or gdubs. How many of those people are still playing those characters?

People stopped playing him because they found he wasn't as good as people said he was. They stopped playing him because they realized the counterplay was very simple: don't approach him, and he can't hurt you.

You refuse to learn this matchup. I've been more than willing to help you in the times you've been to SG, and yet it seems you are more content to rant about the character here, in a public forum, than make the necessary adaptations to fight him. After friendlies, it seems like progress has been made, and then I hear about another giant gdubs rant it it makes me wonder if you were paying any attention at all.

I always try to help people learn this matchup. I don't want to win because people don't understand my character. I've been helping Khanye East out with the matchup recently--ask him for advice, I'm sure he can give you his findings.

I recognize that you haven't had a lot of time to devote to the game recently, and that you don't have any local gdubs players to practice against other than me and Freeze (who only sort of still plays the character) at SG.

Here's the thing. I am (in essence) your only game and watch experience. The vast majority of your matches against game and watch (and your complaints about him as well) are related to me.

On the other hand, my training partner is Reyn Time (@HarmakPaul), a Ness who is very arguably on your level. During the school year, I played against him for an hour at a time, three times a week, every week. I know Ness absolutely *cold*. I feel safe in saying it's the only matchup I truly have memorized.

I know the Ness matchup like the back of my hand. You rarely have to fight game and watch. Obviously the character is going to seem broken to you--he punishes your every twitch! My success against you is not based on the matchup alone. It's a bad matchup for you, yes, but I know you're a better player than me. My win rate is because I learned the matchup, and I know how to punish essentially everything Ness does.

The Ness/Game and Watch matchup is easily 60/40 in Gdubs favor, erring on the side of 65/35. It is a very bad matchup for Ness. In PM, all that means is that it's a matchup you'll have to work at. I have those--Ivysaur, Marth, Roy, Snake, ZSS, Link, Tink, to name a few. They are all pretty horrid (IMO, I think ZSS/Snake is just my opinion), but I took the time to learn them. I rarely lose to Tink now. I've beaten Sol a number of times. I've had threateningly close games with Numerics (I still have to work on this one).

The ivysaur matchup, with the loss of the frame-1 up-B, has become discouragingly hard in 3.6. I complained about it (privately) for a while. Snake as well. But after a bit, I dusted myself off and I learned the matchup. I feel comfortable against Snake now, and I plan to track down SK for some Ivy friendlies tomorrow.

The "M" in "Project M" could easily stand for "matchups". If you can't learn it with your main, pick up a secondary. Everyone but Jiggs is viable. We have that luxury.

I will agree that gdubs needs some design reworks. It seems like PMDT wants him to be a glass-cannon type of character, but they forgot to give him an approach option or two. Likewise, it seems like they wanted him to be a zoning character, but they made him die to a sneeze and they removed his best zoning option in 3.0. This needs to be cleared up before gdubs gets any changes. Once we establish what this character is supposed to be, THEN we can talk about what needs nerfs and what needs buffs.

Again, I'm sorry for calling you out like this. I don't want there to be bad blood between us--but after four months of listening to you vocally complain about my character, trying to convince everyone he's broken based on a handful of matches against a player who trains against your character multiple times a week...I'm starting to take it personally. I just want people to understand the history behind this (from my perspective, I'd like to hear yours) before we continue.

I guess this does boil down to "git gud". I guess I have used a ton of logical fallacies in here, and that's only because I'm angry.

But please, stop making accusations without playing a NUMBER of gdubs players other than me first. I'm not a good data point.

also yeah animations need fixing

edits include various spelling errors and a couple of additional closing statements

 

[Boiko]

Something worth considering is not only how great their punish game is, but how many times and under what circumstances can they put themselves in a position to punish. Just something to think about.

Er, @ Experiment 5 , you're kind of doing the same thing that you're accusing NZA of doing and citing match ups based on your independent experiences against players in your region.

Here's the thing: if gdubs was really broken and good, wouldn't there be more top players playing him?

And no, this isn't necessarily true.

 

[steelguttey]

pm is based off the premise that you dont have to play characters that are good because everyone is good. so you can play who you feel is interesting.

very little people think game and watch is interesting.

 

[Experiment 5]

I recognize that the bit about 3.5 dropping was uncalled for. I like the punish game and I don't like getting comboed, so I find gdubs interesting. I can see how people wouldn't though.

i might post a revised, less-angry version of my rant later when I'm less angry

the bottom line is that I'm annoyed that @ The_NZA is complaining about something I don't feel he understands very well, because he doesn't actually have a lot of experience fighting the character.

it boils down to opinion and speculation, but that IS the point of this thread after all

 

[steelguttey]

I like the punish game and I don't like getting comboed, so I find gdubs interesting.

heres a signature for all of you game and watch haters out there

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'm sure every Luigi who combos or strings into sideB to KO was disappointed by that change

You can still combo into misfire...

https://youtu.be/JsguCdbVdU4?t=452

Inb4 rekt and where's your DI, bro?

 

[Zigludo]

I pushed the character's punish game to similar levels that Mr Lz and Dakpo did

it's funny that you think this is true lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

The salt levels in this thread right now are too damn high.

If c-stick smash was adjusted to support diagonal jab/nair inputs, what characters if any would still prefer c-stick attack? I'm starting to think I'd gravitate back to c-smash, particularly for dashdance-based characters, but I'm curious if there are any exceptions.

 

[The_NZA]

@ The_NZA : I'm sorry. I don't like to fire shots like this but I'm sick of you fearmongering about my character. I've been quiet about this for too long and I feel like I need to say something.

For non-SG people: I'm Bees! (changing my tag to Actias Luna soon but whatever). I'm 5-0 against NZA in bracket sets, one of which is a four-stock on stream. I play gdubs in tourney and no one else.

I know you're angry about me being 5-0 against you in bracket, and I know that makes you think game and watch is OP. Yes, that's me minimizing your complaints. I think that, in this case, it has merit.

I've seen you slash open this wound on this thread a number of times now, and every time you spout wild accusations about things gdubs does that may or may not be problematic. Here's the thing: if gdubs was really broken and good, wouldn't there be more top players playing him? People have definitely shown they are not opposed to picking up a top-tier character solely because they're top tier. Why not gdubs? Tons of people picked him up when 3.5 came out because of the changelog and your fearmongering about the supposed power of the character. How many of those people are still playing gdubs today? I remember the day 3.5 dropped, and nearly half the room was playing Ganon or gdubs. How many of those people are still playing those characters?

People stopped playing him because they found he wasn't as good as people said he was. They stopped playing him because they realized the counterplay was very simple: don't approach him, and he can't hurt you.

You refuse to learn this matchup. I've been more than willing to help you in the times you've been to SG, and yet it seems you are more content to rant about the character here, in a public forum, than make the necessary adaptations to fight him. After friendlies, it seems like progress has been made, and then I hear about another giant gdubs rant it it makes me wonder if you were paying any attention at all.

I always try to help people learn this matchup. I don't want to win because people don't understand my character. I've been helping Khanye East out with the matchup recently--ask him for advice, I'm sure he can give you his findings.

I recognize that you haven't had a lot of time to devote to the game recently, and that you don't have any local gdubs players to practice against other than me and Freeze (who only sort of still plays the character) at SG.

Here's the thing. I am (in essence) your only game and watch experience. The vast majority of your matches against game and watch (and your complaints about him as well) are related to me.

On the other hand, my training partner is Reyn Time (@HarmakPaul), a Ness who is very arguably on your level. During the school year, I played against him for an hour at a time, three times a week, every week. I know Ness absolutely *cold*. I feel safe in saying it's the only matchup I truly have memorized.

I know the Ness matchup like the back of my hand. You rarely have to fight game and watch. Obviously the character is going to seem broken to you--he punishes your every twitch! My success against you is not based on the matchup alone. It's a bad matchup for you, yes, but I know you're a better player than me. My win rate is because I learned the matchup, and I know how to punish essentially everything Ness does.

The Ness/Game and Watch matchup is easily 60/40 in Gdubs favor, erring on the side of 65/35. It is a very bad matchup for Ness. In PM, all that means is that it's a matchup you'll have to work at. I have those--Ivysaur, Marth, Roy, Snake, ZSS, Link, Tink, to name a few. They are all pretty horrid (IMO, I think ZSS/Snake is just my opinion), but I took the time to learn them. I rarely lose to Tink now. I've beaten Sol a number of times. I've had threateningly close games with Numerics (I still have to work on this one).

The ivysaur matchup, with the loss of the frame-1 up-B, has become discouragingly hard in 3.6. I complained about it (privately) for a while. Snake as well. But after a bit, I dusted myself off and I learned the matchup. I feel comfortable against Snake now, and I plan to track down SK for some Ivy friendlies tomorrow.

The "M" in "Project M" could easily stand for "matchups". If you can't learn it with your main, pick up a secondary. Everyone but Jiggs is viable. We have that luxury.

I will agree that gdubs needs some design reworks. It seems like PMDT wants him to be a glass-cannon type of character, but they forgot to give him an approach option or two. Likewise, it seems like they wanted him to be a zoning character, but they made him die to a sneeze and they removed his best zoning option in 3.0. This needs to be cleared up before gdubs gets any changes. Once we establish what this character is supposed to be, THEN we can talk about what needs nerfs and what needs buffs.

Again, I'm sorry for calling you out like this. I don't want there to be bad blood between us--but after four months of listening to you vocally complain about my character, trying to convince everyone he's broken based on a handful of matches against a player who trains against your character multiple times a week...I'm starting to take it personally. I just want people to understand the history behind this (from my perspective, I'd like to hear yours) before we continue.

I guess this does boil down to "git gud". I guess I have used a ton of logical fallacies in here, and that's only because I'm angry.

But please, stop making accusations without playing a NUMBER of gdubs players other than me first. I'm not a good data point.

also yeah animations need fixing

edits include various spelling errors and a couple of additional closing statements

You still seem to think this is about you, and its really not. For the record, I think Harmak is the best v. GnW out of any Ness player in the world and I think he VASTLY outplays his opposing GnW's to keep it barely even. To think I haven't spent time to practice and lab about the character or watch countless matches of Boiko, StereoKIDD or Reyntime v. GnW is also outrageous when I play you and Freeze a fine amount and spend quite a bit studying the character. I feel comfortable that I've done my due diligence. Regardless, the things i'm complaining about can be challenged on their merits alone when it comes to design strength rather than turning this into a "how good is NZA v. GnW" and "how good is Ness v. GnW". I mostly end up going 2-1 against GnWs in sets, or keeping it relatively close. None of that changes my design problems with the character.

For the record, I was just as aggressive about Zelda 3.02 as I am about 3.5 and 3.6 GnW, and I was pretty damn good in that matchup. I don't hate on design because I'm losing to it. I hate on design when it looks like it rewards bad behaviors and its lazy. I've already gone exhaustively into why I think those things. If your only contribution is "hey, I'm Bees! I beat The NZA a lot and I can testify that he's only played friendlies with me a dozen times over the last few months" then let's leave it at that.

 

[Dakpo]

To think I haven't spent time to practice and lab about the character or watch countless matches of Boiko, StereoKIDD or Reyntime v. GnWt.

I dont think you should be watching Boiko vs GnW huehuehue

 

[The_NZA]

I dont think you should be watching Boiko vs GnW huehuehue

LOL. To be fair, watching Stereokidd isn't much better. Both are infinitely more informative than watching me. Reyn Time is probably the best Ness v. GnW there is, but watching him play against GnW physically hurts me because it looks like he's WAY outplaying him only for the games to be incredibly even.

This is my favorite Ness v. GnW match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk0duBCj5yM

 

[Boiko]

I dont think you should be watching Boiko vs GnW huehuehue

LOL. PROBABLY NOT.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Came up in discussion on Discord, I've mentioned this elsewhere but I don't think I've said it in this thread.

Tethers have a max duration of 90 frames before they're forced to reel in. If you're below 100% and a tether waits more than one second to perform their getup, you can do a normal getup (duration varies, but something like 33-35 frames across the cast) starting around frame 65 while still triggering the forced hop. If they wait the full duration then this nets substantial frame advantage, but even if they reel in on the same frame as you initiate the getup it's pretty comparable to what you'd get on reaction.

 

[MLGF]

I use swords, what is G&W?

In all seriousness, I'd be OK if G&W lost some of his dumb stuff like jumping out of up b and compensated with something that can actually compete with swordies.

 

[Apollo Ali]

GnW has weaknesses just like 3.02 Link had weaknesses, but he's still designed like ass and is highly rewarding at a suboptimal level, just like 3.02 Link.

It's really the inconsistency that gets me.

 

[Boiko]

3.02 Link as performed by a 13 year old:

http://xfiregamingli.challonge.com/Crossfire4PMSingles

Third place.

 

[The_NZA]

3.02 Link as performed by a 13 year old:

http://xfiregamingli.challonge.com/Crossfire4PMSingles

Third place.

To be fair to 3.02 Link, here's 3.6 GnW as performed by a 12 year old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scU-UmHfaL8

 

[The_NZA]

JK, LZ's really good. Age doesn't mean anything. Frozen is like 11 and he's godlike.

 

[JOE!]

@ The_NZA , just seed me vs @ Experiment 5 and I'll knock him out for you <3

 

[KhanYe]

I always try to help people learn this matchup. I don't want to win because people don't understand my character. I've been helping Khanye East out with the matchup recently--ask him for advice, I'm sure he can give you his findings.

ya nyle, suck a butt

 

[Rᴏb]

The second one is probably the greatest design flaw of GnW, we need to change bacon again lol. As it stands now, GnW has a projectile that can dominate large characters and ones that tend to jump a lot like puff. The move is also horrendously useless against most of the other portions of the cast during neutral. This is because when fighting a dash dancing opponent, bacon shoots diagonally into the air where no one is. The move becomes pretty terrible until we get into a juggle situation.
I like the direction the PM dev team went when they changed it so that I can only have 2 pieces of bacon out at a time. What we need to do now is completely eliminate random trajectory. I suggest that we change it so that I can only have 1 active piece of bacon out at a time, but I can control the exact trajectory of the single bacon (90 degree angle). This would allow me to interact with neutral opponents while not being able to spam the move like a falco lazer.

I would love this.

Saying GnW has 4 sex kicks is obviously a little hyperbolic as they are literally not sex kicks, but my point got across to the majority of people that read it. His aerials are active for a lot longer than other peoples'.

You should have just said this to begin with :/. "Sexkick" has so many connotations that are so misleading and wrong when used to describe G&W's aerials; I couldn't let it slide.

You yourself pointed out that 4 of his aerials are active for 10+ frames, with a couple approaching the 20+ window. I realize you can point to the fact that other peoples sexkicks are active for 30+ frames, but those later frames are relatively inconsequential in a fast shffl game. Being active for too long is actually worse since it takes longer to mix up your opponent if you are coming from high up.

Right, his aerials' average duration is definitely longer than probably every other character's aerials, but I'd argue that this is both a blessing and a curse. Sure it reduces the margin of error a player may have connecting aerials, but it also requires that character to commit to his aerials more so than other characters normally would. I think this is the reason why so many people say G&W's neutral is a bit lackluster.

I said that like...two weeks ago or more. And when you or someone pointed out that he can't air dodge after upb -> jump, I apologized for being misinformed, and noted that he still could bucket break, double jump, and then aerial which provides plenty of mixup options on the way down. When you further emphasize that his hitbox all cover one strict side of him with a lot of disjoints (dair, bair, fair), being able to double jump juke someone and come down with one of those aerials is actually REALLY hard to play around. The point you and Dakpo are saying that this come down strategy is actually super disadvantageous to GnW because he's a floaty is pretty untrue, when he can double jump juke the direction you are guessing, and throw out a wall to protect himself in reaction to whichever new adaption you have to make. Again, for SOME characters, this is no trouble at all. Fox's dash dance is good enough that he can readjust to the double jump, or Marth's disjoints don't really care about GnW's hitboxes and can outspace him. For other characters, its really tight and hard to catch a falling GnW, and while GnW is disadvantaged, it's not too bad for him.

Fair enough, I guess I didn't see you correct yoursel-

and noted that he still could bucket break, double jump, and then aerial

Dude, no, no he can't. This is misinformation. This is what makes me think you don't understand what you're saying. He can't bucket brake, he can bucket stall, which really isn't notable or all that helpful. I don't think we're ever going to agree on how unsafe G&W actually his after he upb's, so I'm gonna drop it after this post. All I can really so to you is to look at the frame data and listen to what some of the more informed G&W's (Dakpo, SB) are saying. We're assuring you that your are overrating this aspect of the character, and this is partly why I think you're looking at this from the perspective of a Ness main rather than in a more general sense. The only characters you've mentioned that don't have trouble with this are Fox and Marth when there are many more. (Wolf, Falco, Ike, Roy, Yoshi, Falcon, Ganon, Sheik, Link, TL, ZSS, DDD, MK, etc.)

If your counter points are Zelda and Luigi, that's not really close to the same thing. Luigi's nair is a frame 3 move that covers a little below him. It doesn't strictly get him out of the situation, it deflects people who commit too hard to their preprogrammed combos. It's easy to bait out the nair like you would a smash 4 air dodge, and punish him from the side or whatever. GnW literally jumps out of the situation, resetting it into some kind of a staggered neutral where he is at a disadvantage but has effectively escaped punish game for many people who fight him.

I really don't buy this. Luigi's nair is sooo similar and if that can be baited I don't get why you don't think upb can be too. Luigi's nair is even more likely to kill while skipping past the the combo's G&W has to do in order to kill you.

You can argue anything general like that if you want, but I'd love to see some examples of what you mean. The reason why I think this is more unique to GnW has to do with how he is one of the few characters that has moves with multiple utility, deceptive animations, and flexibility to allow him to capitalize on accidents in a way that other players don't. GnW's long lasting hitboxes means precision doesn't really matter, and you can cover options imprecisely if you feel like it (he was probably trying to cover Lucky's WD on stage approach but got a delayed side b). Another example is how his upb has a lot of utility and it can garner you flexible kills here and here. The core thing about these two clips is that pretty obvious mistakes were made, but they wouldn't ordinarily combo into kills for other characters. Normally, the pan is used as a zoning projectile, but over here it helps GnW get a gimp. Note: I couldn't find good footage of the 3rd hit of dair popping someone up for an usmash, but let's pretend I found a video of someone dropping shield a little too early after blocking the initial dair.

G&W capitalizes more on lack of matchup knowledge, not these accidents you keep talking about. When I talk about how any character can accidentally punish you, the first examples that come to mind are characters with sexkicks. It's easy to misinterpret when their hitboxes disappear on their sexkick because they last so damn long; you can run into them just as easily as you could run into some of G&W's longer lasting moves.

In all of the examples you posted I see mistakes being made by the players facing G&W. Lucky wasn't patient and sideb'd right into Mrlz' read. Apollo Ali literally just sat there and let Almighty hit him, it also looks like he didn't DI at all (DDD may have been punished anyway due to fatness). Mafia did Peach's upsmash rather than shorthop nair in 3.5 when G&W still had his frame 1 move (fthrow may have been a better option in general due to this). And lastly, Bees! literally just reacted to you jumping from the ledge. Your claims that all of these must have been mistakes and were definitely unintentional byproducts of G&W's design is unsubstantiated bull ****.

First off, I don't think my opinions are less subjective than yours and if that came across, i'm sorry. The fact is, much of your post boiled down to "sounds like you are making mistakes and you should play better. These aspects of GnWs design are in the acceptable range of character uniqueness, and at the point the opponent is making mistakes that you are making and is taking damage, I think his design is fine". I'm not going to argue against that. That's where game design IS subjective. Some people think 3.02 Zelda was the pinnacle of good design, and I call those people crazy. But I realize that their opinion of whats fun and what isn't doesn't reflect my opinion of what is fun and what isn't.

It really feels like you are, man :/. Regardless, I appreciate you questioning G&W's design because it helps me develop my own opinion of it. I feel like a complete **** for telling you to go in the lab and study him more, maybe even pick up a secondary character to deal with him, but I just can't help but feel that way when most of your posts seem to be from the perspective of a player who's character has a bad matchup against G&W rather than a player who understands that the bull**** that your character goes through isn't universal.

I kind of can't wait to see the beast unlocked.

Me too dude.

 

[4tlas]

just went and tested it, it feels exactly the same

All of those changes probably affect the effectiveness of the bucket stall, but they definitely don't affect bucket braking.

Dude, no, no he can't. This is misinformation. This is what makes me think you don't understand what you're saying. He can't bucket brake, he can bucket stall, which really isn't notable or all that helpful.

I'm confused now. I thought you said he could still Bucket brake like in that video you posted? I was saying he couldn't, but you said I was wrong. Were you just talking about the 3.5 changelog part?

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with @ Boiko that GAW up B is a bit silly- that said, I wouldn't change it. As of 3.6 my general opinion is that much of the "fun" has been nerfed out of the game (we still play for fun right?) and I would prefer to leave a few borderline indefensible articles of design left in the game. ATM the game feels predominantly over-run by mediocre and situational options that leave the game feeling like a bunch of mid-tiers and very MU heavy. Except of course the characters that have ubiquitous and powerful tools like Marth's dashdance that huge chunks of the cast can never hope to compete with. We are pushing players out of the player base when we remove things like GAW up B, and we should really stop.

I play this game instead of melee, not as another re-branding of it.

 

[Boiko]

Fair enough, I guess I didn't see you correct yoursel- Dude, no, no he can't. This is misinformation. This is what makes me think you don't understand what you're saying. He can't bucket brake, he can bucket stall, which really isn't notable or all that helpful.

https://youtu.be/scU-UmHfaL8?t=7m22s

Yes, he can.

They've literally said the can't remove it and it's been brought up like six times in the past two pages alone.

Edit: Rather, they haven't figured out how to remove it.

 

[1FD]

LOL. To be fair, watching Stereokidd isn't much better. Both are infinitely more informative than watching me. Reyn Time is probably the best Ness v. GnW there is, but watching him play against GnW physically hurts me because it looks like he's WAY outplaying him only for the games to be incredibly even.

This is my favorite Ness v. GnW match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk0duBCj5yM

I'm not sure what you find so enjoyable about that match to be your fave
but I was superbly unimpressed with both players in that set
every whiffed GW fair coming a mile away from across the stage was either unpunished or just got a bair to the face, when ness could easily have grabbed or dtilted or dashattacked every single one. too much DJC bair to actually do something decent.
even the commentary picked up on it like half way through the last match
GW shouldn't have been doing that and ness should have been punishing it
on top of that, most punishes that DID go through were just strings of dairs from the ness and should have easily just been a couple into an fsmash on the missed techs or jab resets into them or SOMETHING that was actually punishing
most of those dair strings did almost no damage, didn't lead to positional gain, and were escaped usually IN THE MIDDLE OF A MISSED DAIR that for some reason was being attempted
Looked like an even match as far as gameplay went too. The GW play was just as solid if not more so than the ness. Both had strengths in things but both lacked in most areas of the game with those characters.
I don't even watch much GW or Ness, but of what I've seen just from the bit I HAVE seen, that wasn't even a match worth linking.

I might just not get what you're seeing in that match.
Care to explain? I'd like to get it, I just don't. :/

This is legit. Too many characters are toolboxes. That's not always a problem, but when they have tools that cover every situation effectively, the swag factor does tend to go away. There need to be more moves that fill a strange niche, and promote creativity. It's interesting that most of the characters people consider good or even problematic, have a vanilla feel to them. They aren't good because of a dumb gimmick, they are good because they are straightforward and semi-bland.

That's part of the fun of Melee as opposed to PM. There will never be patches, so people need to be creative to be successful. PM is going to continue to get balance patches, and the PMDT is going to do what they can to make every character viable. The solution to the dilemma is A: More goofy **** and B: Everyone should explore footstooling.

well put there too ya

I agree with @ Boiko that GAW up B is a bit silly- that said, I wouldn't change it. As of 3.6 my general opinion is that much of the "fun" has been nerfed out of the game (we still play for fun right?) and I would prefer to leave a few borderline indefensible articles of design left in the game. ATM the game feels predominantly over-run by mediocre and situational options that leave the game feeling like a bunch of mid-tiers and very MU heavy. Except of course the characters that have ubiquitous and powerful tools like Marth's dashdance that huge chunks of the cast can never hope to compete with. We are pushing players out of the player base when we remove things like GAW up B, and we should really stop.

I play this game instead of melee, not as another re-branding of it.

adds to the other quote above it here too ya


to top off this stuff

Just watched a bit of that set with lucky and mrl
almost everything that happened to lucky in the first match of the set was stuff it wouldn't run into after like a hour of playing against a GW
both when getting punished and out of neutral

It looked comparable to if Lucky was running into falco dairs trying to nair at him when falco full hopped above him, or like he was trying to nair marth from across a stage and getting grabbed or fair'd OOS, or like he was trying to dd shine an ICs that was WD dsmashing him for it

Just stuff that doesn't happen when players that good play against stuff they're good at playing against. Everybody is terrible at playing against everything XD

game is still sooooo not developed on any decently large scale of populace this game too hard

 

[Journal]

I agree with @ Boiko that GAW up B is a bit silly- that said, I wouldn't change it. As of 3.6 my general opinion is that much of the "fun" has been nerfed out of the game (we still play for fun right?) and I would prefer to leave a few borderline indefensible articles of design left in the game. ATM the game feels predominantly over-run by mediocre and situational options that leave the game feeling like a bunch of mid-tiers and very MU heavy. Except of course the characters that have ubiquitous and powerful tools like Marth's dashdance that huge chunks of the cast can never hope to compete with. We are pushing players out of the player base when we remove things like GAW up B, and we should really stop.

I play this game instead of melee, not as another re-branding of it.

I agree with this soooo much. In the 3.5 days, I hands down preferred PM, just because the way I could play sheik was a lot more fun. Nowadays, it's like, why not just play melee given where Sheik is? I'm not nearly at the stage in my smash development where I feel like I could just pick up a new character and it wouldn't negatively effect my play.