Tier List Speculation

nimigoha · Apr 25, 2015

My hangup is just that people tend to stretch the cast out too thin at this point in time. As I said before, Umbreon had Ivysaur in something called "E Tier" which is just ridiculous.

I don't care what the tiers are called.

In a game this balanced (debatable) with the current amount (low) of matchup optimization and current lifetime of versions, the only tiers I see are 'these characters are probably the best', 'these characters are good', and 'these characters need buffs/fixes but you can still play them'. Whether they're "A+ A A-" or "S A B C" doesn't really matter to me.

As long as no tier list involves an E tier.

InfinityCollision · Apr 25, 2015

You still don't get it. Quick refresher:

Tier divisions are inherently arbitrary. 4 divisions is no less arbitrary than 3, 7, or 25. Trying to argue that your divisions are inherently superior to someone else's is absurd.

nimigoha · Apr 25, 2015

Durr. I'll shut up now.

Foo · Apr 25, 2015

Dude, your 4 tier system is so bad. You can represent all characters with just 2 tiers. Let me show you how it's done. Here's Foo's much anticipated first tier list. There's going to be tons of info with this, but don't tl:dr the spoilers.

Tier 1

-

Melee fox shine damage angles shone fox fox. Fox, fire blaster try using your head shine fox matchup. Fox fox fox shine pressure damage shine shine shine upsmash fox matchup chaingrab no fox get them off me I'm hit aaaaaaah. Fox fire shine fox fox FOX fox shine shine, fox pressure laser ow my fingers.

Tier 2

-

: Fox Fox Fox Fox fox, Fox, fox fox fox, fox fox. Fox FOX FOX fox FOX shine fox. Shine shine SHine SHINE shjine fox shine fox fox shine shine fox shine fox fox fox, shine. Fox fox pressure, shine damage fox. Fox feet damage shine fox fox, fire fox fire fire fox, shine. Pressure camp fox shine damage fire, fox? Holy Foxing Shine.
-

: Fox Fox Fox Fox fox, Fox, fox fox fox, fox fox. Fox FOX FOX fox FOX shine fox. Shine shine SHine SHINE shjine fox shine fox fox shine shine fox shine fox fox fox, shine. Fox fox pressure, shine damage fox. Fox feet damage shine fox fox, fire fox fire fire fox, shine. Pressure camp fox shine damage fire, fox? Holy Foxing Shine.

(for serious though)

DK is in a fairly good spot imo. He seems to have a really healthy and balanced moveset with a good set of strengths and weaknesses. Only problem is, being total combo fodder with a recovery that bad and a bad oos game is rough. His punish game is great, but not good enough to justify how vulnerable he is. I think he may deserves a slightly better recovery. This would also make his ledgeguard game a lot more interesting and powerful since he would have more options out of dash attacking off of the stage.

nimigoha · Apr 25, 2015

DK has intangible frame 3 Up B OOS doesn't he? Did I get any of that wrong or is that not considered a good OOS option?

And can't you B reverse it to hit someone who is attacking you from the front?

Chevy · Apr 25, 2015

Y'all aren't ready for the new DK meta. New tech discovered this week by yours truly. And now to the bug report section.

JOE! · Apr 25, 2015

Is that only vs ike?

Chevy · Apr 25, 2015

JOE! said:
Is that only vs ike?

I think it works on everyone, tested it with a couple characters. Fully depressed leaf is instant Donkeycide, slopes and falling leaf do the weird pop up and back down.

Foo · Apr 25, 2015

nimigoha said:
DK has intangible frame 3 Up B OOS doesn't he? Did I get any of that wrong or is that not considered a good OOS option?

And can't you B reverse it to hit someone who is attacking you from the front?

Really small hitbox with a heavy commitment and very low reward. Don't know if it has intangibility, but it's basically a terrible version of bowsers up-b oos either way.

Chevy · Apr 25, 2015

Were I to guess, Ripple's secret tech is DK vaulting himself crazy far offstage with side-b while running off ledge. I've never seen a post on that but I try to use it sometimes.

Ripple · Apr 25, 2015

I would highly disagree calling dk's u-b very low reward. and yes, it is intangible.

reverse up-b to stuff approaches is something I never see anybody do and it is so godlike against a number of MUs. I also thought the walk off death was known about but nobody did it.

nimigoha · Apr 25, 2015

You're right it is really hitbox.

I'm not sure what kind of reward is to be expected from an OOS move. Seeing that it's a defensive option. The best reward from an OOS move is probably non-DI'd Shine-Bair with Falco. Or maybe a perfect waveshine OOS to grab or drill or something with Fox.

Bowser has one of the best and fastest OOS options. Saying that other OOS options aren't good because they're worse than Bowser's is silly. Yes, DK's is slower and really hitbox (I'm assuming you meant small or specific here) but it's still frame 3 IIRC. And it has intang. And you can move in the opposite direction that you hit them in.

POOB · Apr 25, 2015

Im gonna gif something later to show you guys how hitbox his up-b really is. Stay tuned

jtm94 · Apr 25, 2015

I am tuned.

Let's all talk about how OP GnW's UpB oos is. I mean it's frame 1, has to be broken. It hits away people who place unsafe aerials extremely close to your shield. Free escapes. Basically invincible.

I think DK is pretty good. Mainly because dash attack and super awesome in there throw game. Not like top tier good, but not bottom half.

Rizner · Apr 25, 2015

nimigoha said:
My hangup is just that people tend to stretch the cast out too thin at this point in time. As I said before, Umbreon had Ivysaur in something called "E Tier" which is just ridiculous.

I don't care what the tiers are called.

In a game this balanced (debatable) with the current amount (low) of matchup optimization and current lifetime of versions, the only tiers I see are 'these characters are probably the best', 'these characters are good', and 'these characters need buffs/fixes but you can still play them'. Whether they're "A+ A A-" or "S A B C" doesn't really matter to me.

As long as no tier list involves an E tier.

Yeah, I mean it's all just kinda what you want. I could be making a list that I separate out a ton by matchups. It could have 7 tiers, from mostly positive, high amount positive, slightly positive, neutral, etc. It wouldn't mean that mostly negatives aren't useful, or that there's a huge gap between tier 3 and 5 (could just be 3 differences in matchup spreads) but it still makes sense.
I would like people to just name their tiers based on what they understand them to be or to explain what constitutes a new tier placement in their lost. Like, can solo win large tournaments, stops bring great against only the top, etc. Let's us see more along the lines of what they're actually thinking.

Foo · Apr 25, 2015

I meant to say really small guys, lay off you bullies

The spinning part is pretty big, but the first hitbox that comes out quickly is really small. Also, I said it was a much worse version of bowser up-b oos because it's the same thing, just worse in almost every way. It's smaller, less reward, more vunerable, less maneuverability etc. As for the reward thing, there are plenty of rewarding oos options. Stuff like fox upsmashs oos will kill and some quick aerials oos can combo or kill as well.

POOB · Apr 25, 2015

Tell me how is up b oos with dk less of a reward?

Foo · Apr 25, 2015

POOB said:
Tell me how is up b oos with dk less of a reward?

It can never kill and you can't convert combos out of it. (Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you hit the first hitbox of grounded up-b, you want to retreat with it, right? Going for all the hitboxes gets you punished since grounded up-b has so much landing lag, right?)

POOB · Apr 25, 2015

http://youtu.be/bd28USDFsPY

Watch the very last kill of that set and it should answer all your questions. Lmk if Bowser could do that lol

POOB · Apr 25, 2015

That's best case scenario. However, even with good DI it kills pretty early. Good DI is rare though cause it's such a fast and surprising move

Foo · Apr 25, 2015

POOB said:
http://youtu.be/bd28USDFsPY

Watch the very last kill of that set and it should answer all your questions. Lmk if Bowser could do that lol

Wow, that is more powerful than I remember it being. Maybe I've been connecting with the wrong hitbox? I though it was just the one where he raises his fist behind him, I didn't even know the one you hit him with existed. Alright, DK's oos is a bit better than I thought.

POOB · Apr 25, 2015

The one i hit him with is the same one youre thinking of, its just his body and his hand are all the same. If i hit with his fist it's just as powerful

jtm94 · Apr 25, 2015

My homie Steve KOs with DK UpB all the time, move is pretty good.
He used to talk about how much better DK currently is than he needs to be. They fixed some of it though.

Boiko · Apr 25, 2015

Idostuff said:
I don't remember the exact frames on Sheik's back/down throw, but it is not humanly possible to actually DI on reaction for them, you just gotta guess.

14 frames.

POOB said:
I discover new stuff with DK like every week idk what you're talking about SB lol. Also @ Ripple what are these things you speak of that other DK's don't do? You say you know things but you haven't actually gave examples. I'm curious what these things are. I remember you talking about b-reverse grounded up-b being really good and people don't use it enough, which is kinda true. It could prob be used more. What else you got?

Ripple has lost some credibility to me because of his posts like this. He often says things and then never backs them up. If that's the approach he wants to take, that's fine, but it doesn't really contribute anything.

steelguttey · Apr 25, 2015

guys i have a monumental olimar tech that im not showing until the next big major

its called the "stall-the-game-until-they-fix-this-character v2"

the last time i used it didnt work too well

POOB · Apr 25, 2015

Ripple said:
I would highly disagree calling dk's u-b very low reward. and yes, it is intangible.

reverse up-b to stuff approaches is something I never see anybody do and it is so godlike against a number of MUs. I also thought the walk off death was known about but nobody did it.

B-reverse up-b's in neutral and cargocides, damn that's some revolutionary s***

CELTiiC · Apr 25, 2015

jtm94 said:
My homie Steve KOs with DK UpB all the time, move is pretty good.
He used to talk about how much better DK currently is than he needs to be. They fixed some of it though.

I would love for you to elaborate on this. I'm not quite sure how you think DK is currently better than he needs to be, and I don't understand your point it sounds like DK has to be capped at some point because he is DK? I may be missing your point but like I said I would like if you could elaborate. If you are saying this because of his grabs, honestly his neutral options are very weak and his grabs come 50-60% of shield grabs which are the opponents mistake. Also because of not having a projectile, you have to force DK to approach which is not his strong suit. DK needs most of these things to survive in the meta, I'm not sure how you expect him to put up a fight against Lucario or Fox if you take his assets away.

Jacob29 · Apr 25, 2015

Ripple said:
There is something still out there that no DK's do right now and it would be extremely helpful in a number of MUs. admittedly, I can rarely do this either but claiming that there isn't anything new isn't true.

Why don't you share what that is then?

or post it on the DK boards?

Perhaps it is rarely used because of the lack of awareness of it's existence?

Are you referring to the reversed up-b? what's the advantage to that? I'm not 100% on DK.

But for actual TL Speculation.

I think DK is in an alright spot tbh.. like Bowser he seems to have a few troublesome matchups, but boy his punish game is dreamy. A lot of people are in this alright spot though.

Life · Apr 25, 2015

In Brawl, there was this obscure, beyond difficult DK tech that allowed you to edgecancel DK's upB onstage in such a way that he was invincible for the entire duration. You had to, like, be near the edge of the stage, hold shield and a specific control stick angle, and upB OOS on a specific frame or something ridiculous like that. I don't exactly remember. (It was an application of a larger glitch that allowed for invincibility extension that usually required slopes.)

I mean, it wasn't really worth learning because of Brawl's poor character balance, but I figure it was worth bringing up here because calling the metagame for any character "fully explored" is kind of absurd when things like that exist.

CELTiiC · Apr 25, 2015

Life said:
In Brawl, there was this obscure, beyond difficult DK tech that allowed you to edgecancel DK's upB onstage in such a way that he was invincible for the entire duration. You had to, like, be near the edge of the stage, hold shield and a specific control stick angle, and upB OOS on a specific frame or something ridiculous like that. I don't exactly remember. (It was an application of a larger glitch that allowed for invincibility extension that usually required slopes.)

I mean, it wasn't really worth learning because of Brawl's poor character balance, but I figure it was worth bringing up here because calling the metagame for any character "fully explored" is kind of absurd when things like that exist.

I mained DK in brawl, and you were correct you would Up B onto the stage (mostly Yoshi's Island) and you would retain your super armor throughout the whole move. I have not been able to replicate that yet again in PM through my 8 months of playing, but also I took a whole 3-4 years off of smash between Brawl and PM so I may have just lost the timing. My guess is that was something they fixed rather early.

Deleted member · Apr 25, 2015

nimigoha said:
My hangup is just that people tend to stretch the cast out too thin at this point in time. As I said before, Umbreon had Ivysaur in something called "E Tier" which is just ridiculous.

I don't care what the tiers are called.

In a game this balanced (debatable) with the current amount (low) of matchup optimization and current lifetime of versions, the only tiers I see are 'these characters are probably the best', 'these characters are good', and 'these characters need buffs/fixes but you can still play them'. Whether they're "A+ A A-" or "S A B C" doesn't really matter to me.

As long as no tier list involves an E tier.

i dont think ivy is bad, on the contrary i tend to rate her more highly than my peers do. i just dont think shes as good as the characters i put above her, and that there are significant enough gaps between them to note the difference.

941 · Apr 25, 2015

PMS | steelguttey said:
guys i have a monumental olimar tech that im not showing until the next big major

its called the "stall-the-game-until-they-fix-this-character v2"

the last time i used it didnt work too well

That tech may be new to you Olimar players, but ICs mains have been using it since 3.0, but I suppose that's why it's v2. I would have used something else, but I didn't know the bugfix patch was going to be cancelled.

trash? · Apr 25, 2015

the semantics of lettering is meaningless in every single way humanly possible. arguably, there shouldn't be any lettering at all, because not one single person playing project m has even the faintest idea of how large the gap between groups are in the long-term, simply that they exist, so simply spacing out those groups would be enough

FreeGamer · Apr 25, 2015

why do letters matter

just call it top/high/mid/low/bottom like any normal person would

Thane of Blue Flames · Apr 25, 2015

letres don exits

Deleted member · Apr 25, 2015

trash? said:
the semantics of lettering is meaningless in every single way humanly possible. arguably, there shouldn't be any lettering at all, because not one single person playing project m has even the faintest idea of how large the gap between groups are in the long-term, simply that they exist, so simply spacing out those groups would be enough

exactly, who would make a speculation in a thread called "tier list speculation"?

DrinkingFood · Apr 25, 2015

It's also relevant that tiers usually indicate large gaps in viability, so I think having 7 or 25 tiers would make a difference
Entry level competitive players often pick who to focus on based on whatever "supported" tier lists they can find, having excessive tiers in our lists kinda gives the impression that there's a smaller pool of relevant characters to pick from when that's the opposite of true

DMG · Apr 26, 2015

Tiers are whack. I'll have you know that I am a strong woman who don't need no tiers

Juushichi · Apr 26, 2015

941 said:
I think Sonic, Yoshi, Samus, ICs, and Olimar deserve to be in the "No Representation" Tier. The tier for characters that are hard to classify because there isn't enough data to do so.

Yoshi has representation, Ice Climbers have representation.

Sonic, Samus, Olimar, (MK, Pit) are very arguable for not much mid level and above rep though.

steelguttey · Apr 26, 2015

Juushichi said:
Yoshi has representation, Ice Climbers have representation.

Sonic, Samus, Olimar, (MK, Pit) are very arguable for not much mid level and above rep though.

honestly why do mk players underrate him so hard

hes ****ing amazing

Tier List Speculation

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Attachments

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

:drshrug:

mei is bei

Smash Journeyman

Dong 2 Strong

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Dong 2 Strong

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Journeyman

witty/pretty

Smash Ace

Fire is catching.

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Smash Hero

Smash Legend

sugoi ~ sugoi ~

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