Idk if you read all the posts but I've broken down numerous examples. And you're severely underestimating Zelda.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
This is it. This is all it is, to me.
I think the only reason needed to justify a change is that it is bad design.
If it's bad design, the only reasons to keep it boil down to "because people will get salty for a bit" and "because Melee", neither of which are good reasons.
Sardonyx
星黄泉
I think you're overestimating Zelda really. Yes she's a good character, but it's incredibly easy to shut her down once you learn how. She has an awkward space in between her nayru's and dins minimum distance that forces her to try and approach with her abysmal options, or retreat more so she can just be chased again. If you get her in the air she can't really come down at all since telecancel is punishable and will usually reset things back to neutral, where you can just get in her face again and make it awkward for her. If a zelda doesn't come down like that, they can go for the ledge where pretty much most characters have a disadvantage. Zelda has poor mobility outside of Telecancel, and she can't really try to mixup much with it anymore because she can't wavedash out of it. Her pressure game is relatively weak and unsafe on shields outside of a lightning kick, which isn't that great for pressuring in the first place. Approaching and getting out of what pressure she has isn't as hard as it was in 3.02 mainly because Nayru's won't always send in front of her, so her best combo starter might not even start a combo, there are more frames before she can auto cancel it, and the SDI multipliers in it were increased so it is possible to send yourself to that space where it will send behind her sometimes. Dins isn't nearly as stupid as it was in 3.02, so she can't just make a literal minefield around you while you try to recover so you take unnecessary amounts of damage. I have a lot more I can say about why people overestimate her by quite a bit, but my words are getting all jumbled up lol
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
Ive read them all and I dont quite understand how I'm underestimating zelda. She wins against a few characters here and there but she doesn't have ridiculously polarizing matchups like sheik vs bowser or sheik vs link. When bowser and link are fixed to not suck (hopefully), counterpicking with transform won't be viable against them.
In every provided example, you listed a way in which you could transfrom to optimize a hypothetical situation. I don't think im underestimating zelda at all , as the point im trying to make is that both characters are strong enough design wise to cover the hypothetical situation (besides sheik's recovery) I just used sheik as an example since Im more familiar with her.
Besides zhime, what other top players have you fought that are even close to optimizing transform?
I consider myself one of the better melee sheiks in NY at least and I can confidently say that melee sheiks dont want transform for consistency in terms of playstyle. The only time ive played zelda in melee is when ive transformed by accident. Zelda is not part of melee's meta whatsoever.
Changing sheik so that the character has more than 2 usable specials is questionable in itself, andif they are touching her specials, chain needs to go first (seriously why does she still have that?)
I can understand why some people find it questionable design wise, but I think that it's a little opinionated. Not liking something isn't necessarily a reason for changing it, espeically since a lot of the players actually like transform design wise. I think its a little unsubstantiated to call it too good, as ive yet to see a good player use sheilda efficiently enough for me to consider it being OP, and as it is, it adds a level of depth and individuality to the characters. Zhime is the only player ive seen do it, and im fairly certain he would take advantage of a new special more than he does sheik.
Because, like the complaints about Transform as a concept, this issue of load time is far more overblown on paper than it actually is in practice. Load times have only become more consistent with better technology available to PM. On PM setups that are actually made as instructed, the Zelda/Sheik transformation is consistent. If that was a problem causing wildly inconsistent results, we would be looking into it harder. Things that have been much less used than even Transform have had issues brought to attention that were changed due to the actual negative impact they caused. As it is, things like Misfire and Vegetables cause more unpredictable variation with their use. Any kind of match altering RNG could be touted as "bad design" but doesn't necessitate removal just because some people don't like it. The very use of the move itself doesn't cause the world to shatter, as there are other factors leading in and out of it. There are plenty of people who genuinely like those mechanics and far more who just don't have a strong opinion of it. By aggressively campaigning for the removal of something that is genuinely fun to employ and is neither a big deal to have nor game breaking, you are essentially saying that these people who like it are wrong for doing so. That's why it feels like a personal attack against them, and why I keep saying that there's more to lose than to gain from removing such a thing. You more than likely won't stop playing because Transform exists as it always has, but I know people whose interest in the game itself would simply drop if Transform were removed.
Also, little advantages to using Transform such as the Din's detonation have been explored for the express purpose of advancing new potential with the Zelda/Sheik transformation that was never realized in Melee. Removing it after putting in the work to see something happen with the move they have would be counterproductive, to put it lightly.
For clarification, Zelda's development has always been done completely independently of Sheik's existence. Even if Zelda and Sheik were separate, Zelda would have pretty much wound up where she is now with the exception of the DownB slot. The notion that "Sheik holds back Zelda" is a fallacy and shouldn't be perpetuated. Sheik has not been a limitation to what has been done to Zelda - those would be Zelda's own attributes that keep her from competing with the best of them - longevity, speed, and her calculated moveset. Similar to Bowser, you can't have a slower powerhouse character being as well balanced or overall as good the top tier. They will face roadblocks and tilted matchups, and unless the very fabric of what makes a Smash character high tier changes, this is to be expected and honestly, fine if you expect all these character slots to have variety. This is also what still makes Sheik so much better despite the effort put into Zelda's development, and why "covering each other's weaknesses" is a bit incredulous to people who genuinely play both at a high level. Zelda provides far less actual coverage for Sheik's lack of exploitable weaknesses and moreso an individual player's lack of understanding of how Zelda operates. Otherwise redesigning Zelda to be as high and well-rounded would involve shattering her mold and be way too far of a departure from what her Melee/Brawl incarnations looked like. It would be unrecognizable and a different character slot entirely. We don't want that, either.
I'm sorry if you disagree and cannot be convinced otherwise, but repeating this line of argument isn't going to change how this works.
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"it doesn't change tournament results"
because bad design doesn't need to explicitly affect balance to be bad design. kirbicides did not need to actually be good to be bad design.
we are not telling you that it's going to break the game. we're telling you it's meaningless and only clung onto by people who don't understand why a different downb would actually be of any use.
zelda players complain about anything that changes their character, to the point that they have complained in this thread when they gained tech in 3.5
I am horribly offended that a god damn PMDT member needs explaining that, in a game where we obsess over control so much that we will remove all variants of non-control in the rules, a move who's frame data depends entirely on what SD card you're using is lazy design
because bad design doesn't need to explicitly affect balance to be bad design. kirbicides did not need to actually be good to be bad design.
we are not telling you that it's going to break the game. we're telling you it's meaningless and only clung onto by people who don't understand why a different downb would actually be of any use.
zelda players complain about anything that changes their character, to the point that they have complained in this thread when they gained tech in 3.5
have you considered that you'll have a button to do that by removing this
I am horribly offended that a god damn PMDT member needs explaining that, in a game where we obsess over control so much that we will remove all variants of non-control in the rules, a move who's frame data depends entirely on what SD card you're using is lazy design
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AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. They just want Transform gone/replaced. This statement makes it seem like Zelda NEEDS transform to function. Like she isn't a character without it.
Sardonyx
星黄泉
Can you explain to me what tech Zelda has gained in 3.5? I know she lost quite a bit of it from 3.02 to 3.5, so I'm wondering what she gained since I don't play her as often.
Eisen
Smash Ace
One thing I've never understood about the Zelda plight is that I never hear anyone bring up what she could have to fix her problems. Like, how are we supposed to support your cause if all we hear is "our character is bad, if she weren't bad we'd be so much more successful".
Like, do you want he normals/ground options faster? Are you asking for 3.02 dins? Do you want her up-B to kill like in Smash 4? More range on moves like fsmash and ftilt?
I've messed with 3.5 Zelda and I never really felt like she was missing something. I mean, I certainly don't know her very well, but nothing stuck out to me as "wow that's bad" (except the nature of her recovery). She's very good at putting up scary walls with dins/aerials and punishing hard when the opponent messes up. She kills at extremely early percents without having to be very precise, and a lot of her kill moves are just quick arcs or multihits. I'm sure in some MUs like Falco/Fox she's bound to get crapped on, but I think that's more because of Falco and Fox are... well, you know. I imagine the sword weilders also give her trouble because of their speed and range, but I really don't think it's anything to the extent of how easily Bowser gets crapped on. Guess what Bowser's weaknesses are?
* Not very much safe ranged stuff either
* Bad recovery
* Fat/easy to combo, zone, and hit in general
* Slow/not very good at dodging stuff
* gets juggled easily and has trouble getting to the ground also
* Also has almost no combos
The thing is, something has to give with Zelda if you really think she's that bad. She either needs to be faster with weaker kill options (aka less polarized) or needs power buffs. I don't think it'd be fair for a character who can kill at 60 with one read/opponent mess up with a variety of meaty multihit disjoint options should be allowed to combo as well. So like... What do Zelda mains want?
Like, do you want he normals/ground options faster? Are you asking for 3.02 dins? Do you want her up-B to kill like in Smash 4? More range on moves like fsmash and ftilt?
I've messed with 3.5 Zelda and I never really felt like she was missing something. I mean, I certainly don't know her very well, but nothing stuck out to me as "wow that's bad" (except the nature of her recovery). She's very good at putting up scary walls with dins/aerials and punishing hard when the opponent messes up. She kills at extremely early percents without having to be very precise, and a lot of her kill moves are just quick arcs or multihits. I'm sure in some MUs like Falco/Fox she's bound to get crapped on, but I think that's more because of Falco and Fox are... well, you know. I imagine the sword weilders also give her trouble because of their speed and range, but I really don't think it's anything to the extent of how easily Bowser gets crapped on. Guess what Bowser's weaknesses are?
* Not very much safe ranged stuff either
* Bad recovery
* Fat/easy to combo, zone, and hit in general
* Slow/not very good at dodging stuff
* gets juggled easily and has trouble getting to the ground also
* Also has almost no combos
The thing is, something has to give with Zelda if you really think she's that bad. She either needs to be faster with weaker kill options (aka less polarized) or needs power buffs. I don't think it'd be fair for a character who can kill at 60 with one read/opponent mess up with a variety of meaty multihit disjoint options should be allowed to combo as well. So like... What do Zelda mains want?
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Sardonyx
星黄泉
I didn't say she was bad, I literally said that at the beginning of my wall of text. I understand some characters have the same problems that she has to worse extents, but all that post was doing was stating some of her weaknesses and how easily exploitable they can be.
Personally, I don't want 3.02 Zelda back. I think she was better than this one, but she irritated me to no end when I played her.
Eisen
Smash Ace
To clarify, I wasn't replying specifically to you. There's a lot of Zelda in this thread lately. But yeah I know Zelda's not too great, I just... don't know how to fix her and I'm so worried there's too many Zelda mains from 3.02 who are just gonna ask for that if I don't step in, ugh.
from 3.5 changelog:
Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
this is significantly better designed, intentionally-so to fit in with a patch all about removing super-silly mobility options, and almost immediately from reading it would have a lot of far more interesting applications, but it was immediately translated by players as "nerfed horribly RIP", if the thread I'm reading through is any indicator
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Eisen
Smash Ace
Wait, you could interrupt 3.02 teleport with airdodge?
Lmao what
Lmao what
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
What re we defining as bad design?
There are plenty questionable thing in this game that have been in for a while, like ness pkthunder being able to hit him, uthrow knee with cfalc, and ikes QD for example, but they make the character unique. People may disagree with me on those. To call something bad design is objective.
There are plenty questionable thing in this game that have been in for a while, like ness pkthunder being able to hit him, uthrow knee with cfalc, and ikes QD for example, but they make the character unique. People may disagree with me on those. To call something bad design is objective.
aagh semantics
bad design does not have to be objective, because bad design simply needs to be inconsistent, through balance or through its style, which is a subjective concept. likewise, there's also a mighty blurred line between something unique, and something that's too disconnected from the rest of the game to be reasonable.
again, throwback to kirbycides for a second; kirbycides, no matter the game you're talking about, have never, ever, ever been good. period, full stop, it's a big ol' gimmick, just look at CEO2014 and how armada handled chu dat vs. how the overall more savvy zero handled the same scenario, chu won with kirby in 3.02 because of gimmicks that could be bypassed. that didn't really change the fact, however, that a game based around constant movement and action doesn't want to be slowed down by some kirby player camping the ledge, gimmicks or no. tier lists did not shatter specifically because kirbycides were removed. this was not a killing blow to kirby in the slightest. but it made an overall better character, even in a small way.
just so we're clear: until counterpicking mid-match is suddenly a huge deal, transform is useless, idk why people are arguing over the balance of it (its balance implications are "you don't have a downb that matters, dwi"), but it's still inconsistent that a game that wants you to remember if a move is -5 or -6 on shield accounting for hitstun has a move where the time it takes is "whenever the game feels like loading the other character". any niche it currently holds can be dealt with far, far better with a real downb, and the thought that zelda's design as we know it will just magically vanish into thin air if we give her something useful for a change is delusional, at best
bad design does not have to be objective, because bad design simply needs to be inconsistent, through balance or through its style, which is a subjective concept. likewise, there's also a mighty blurred line between something unique, and something that's too disconnected from the rest of the game to be reasonable.
again, throwback to kirbycides for a second; kirbycides, no matter the game you're talking about, have never, ever, ever been good. period, full stop, it's a big ol' gimmick, just look at CEO2014 and how armada handled chu dat vs. how the overall more savvy zero handled the same scenario, chu won with kirby in 3.02 because of gimmicks that could be bypassed. that didn't really change the fact, however, that a game based around constant movement and action doesn't want to be slowed down by some kirby player camping the ledge, gimmicks or no. tier lists did not shatter specifically because kirbycides were removed. this was not a killing blow to kirby in the slightest. but it made an overall better character, even in a small way.
just so we're clear: until counterpicking mid-match is suddenly a huge deal, transform is useless, idk why people are arguing over the balance of it (its balance implications are "you don't have a downb that matters, dwi"), but it's still inconsistent that a game that wants you to remember if a move is -5 or -6 on shield accounting for hitstun has a move where the time it takes is "whenever the game feels like loading the other character". any niche it currently holds can be dealt with far, far better with a real downb, and the thought that zelda's design as we know it will just magically vanish into thin air if we give her something useful for a change is delusional, at best
Sardonyx
星黄泉
I apologize then, it just seemed like that since I talked about her weaknesses specifically. 3.02 is a zelda build I don't like, so I wouldn't support bringing that back honestly.
Sardonyx
星黄泉
This really doesn't work as well as it seems, mainly because it can be overly difficult to snap to platforms to below, and side to side is literally the easiest thing to do. The sliding momentum afterwards isn't that helpful since you'll know where she's sliding and can throw out a hitbox right as she appears and punish her. Overall, I do think this telecancel is better than teledashing, but it's not enough to make up for the stuff she lost from 3.02 to 3.5.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
@
trash?
damn that was a solid post. You're coming to NWM7 right? I'd like to shake your hand in an irl fashion.
I really don't understand why zelda mains (read: Zhime) get so up in arms over every little change. I've invested by far more time into Bowser than anyone, and I'm pushing for total goddamn overhaul. Most of the time it is totally possible for your character to endure changes and even normalizations without the Apocalypse occurring, and even without your character becoming a totally flavorless, generic mannequin.
I have no idea how to fix Zelda, but it seems pretty obvious that she's rather bad right now, and equally obvious that if she's good, her matchup spread, when combined with Sheik's, will make her problematic. Bad enough to warrant removal of Transform? Maybe, maybe not.
Sheik's chain needs to go, though. Maybe if she took minor nerfs in other aspects of her kit, she could get a useful, interesting new tool instead of totally dead weight?
trash?
damn that was a solid post. You're coming to NWM7 right? I'd like to shake your hand in an irl fashion.I really don't understand why zelda mains (read: Zhime) get so up in arms over every little change. I've invested by far more time into Bowser than anyone, and I'm pushing for total goddamn overhaul. Most of the time it is totally possible for your character to endure changes and even normalizations without the Apocalypse occurring, and even without your character becoming a totally flavorless, generic mannequin.
I have no idea how to fix Zelda, but it seems pretty obvious that she's rather bad right now, and equally obvious that if she's good, her matchup spread, when combined with Sheik's, will make her problematic. Bad enough to warrant removal of Transform? Maybe, maybe not.
Sheik's chain needs to go, though. Maybe if she took minor nerfs in other aspects of her kit, she could get a useful, interesting new tool instead of totally dead weight?
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Not interesting, Unclear, not well defined relationships between the elements (the kit) of the subject and or body of the design (Zelda).
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
Ok, that's sensible.
I think it would be cool for sheik to get new specials anyway, its kind of dumb how she only has needles and teleport.
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
robosteven
Smash Lord
am I in the auto l-canceling thread
The Baron
Smash Apprentice
What exactly do you want done with bowser, overhaul wise?
Akhenderson
Smash Apprentice
I'm glad someone else actually knows what melty blood is. One of the best fighting games i've ever played next to project m.Yay, Melty Blood.
@Frost | Odds , even if I didn't play Sheik and GnW (and I don't play GnW much these days anyway), I would still feel some sort of way about improving those moves by the way.
Also, I don't understand why you Zelda mains want to keep transform? What's the point?
If you like playing as Zelda, why would you want to let her keep a move that makes you not play Zelda?
Again, if you want to keep that move, you're going to have to make them similar in playstyle so match ups and counter picks don't get skewed towards the advantage of the Sheilda player or cripple both characters so that they depend on each other to play as. (And really, who wants to play HALF a character with the ability to switch to ANOTHER HALF?)
If you guys are so strongly for the idea of keeping transform, why not have Shielda be a character slot, with Zelda and Sheik having their own character slots but have Sheilda be balanced around Transform while Zelda and Sheik get their own balancing done independent of the trait because they lose it.
robosteven
Smash Lord
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
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robo stop im the ****posting olimar player
stop taking my job
stop taking my job
Player -0
Smash Hero
3.5 cancel you have to be a lot more precise than 3.02 with cancels. It's pretty big for teleporting to platforms like the SV one and if Zelda is going to something like BF's top platform and messes it up the whole situation.
Oh no, you're going to trigger him.
I'm not odds but I think a slightly smaller, faster bowsa with little if any armor would be a great revision.
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Life
Smash Hero
I'm gonna go ahead and argue both sides a bit because I feel like it.
The problem with transform is that it prevents you from being able to counterpick Sheik unless your character/stage combination can also handle Zelda, and vice-versa. (The load time thing is relatively minor since you shouldn't be using transform in a context where that'll make a difference i.e. anywhere you can get hit for doing so.)
The thing is that this design issue actually has very little impact on the game at large. Part of this is due to being offset by balance problems: if Fox is busted in a way that makes him unfun to play against, you'll hear a lot of complaints about that. (And you do, but it's debatable so I'll leave it at that.) However, like Melee, Zelda's not exactly strong in 3.5, so facing a Sheilda is not all that different from facing a Sheik.
So what do I actually think?
Basically, while transform is flawed from a design standpoint, its impact on the overall health of the game has proven to be pretty minimal. Replacing transform with two entirely new moves for Zelda and Sheik would take a lot of effort by the PMDT (every change affects balance across the cast, remember that--for example, giving Sheik her flipkick from smash 4 would break her in matchups against characters that rely on juggling and/or edgeguarding her, such as Marth; she would need to be nerfed to compensate, but how best to do that without making her get hard countered by characters that aren't as reliant on abusing those two weaknesses? and so forth) which I think would be better spent elsewhere.
The problem with transform is that it prevents you from being able to counterpick Sheik unless your character/stage combination can also handle Zelda, and vice-versa. (The load time thing is relatively minor since you shouldn't be using transform in a context where that'll make a difference i.e. anywhere you can get hit for doing so.)
The thing is that this design issue actually has very little impact on the game at large. Part of this is due to being offset by balance problems: if Fox is busted in a way that makes him unfun to play against, you'll hear a lot of complaints about that. (And you do, but it's debatable so I'll leave it at that.) However, like Melee, Zelda's not exactly strong in 3.5, so facing a Sheilda is not all that different from facing a Sheik.
So what do I actually think?
Basically, while transform is flawed from a design standpoint, its impact on the overall health of the game has proven to be pretty minimal. Replacing transform with two entirely new moves for Zelda and Sheik would take a lot of effort by the PMDT (every change affects balance across the cast, remember that--for example, giving Sheik her flipkick from smash 4 would break her in matchups against characters that rely on juggling and/or edgeguarding her, such as Marth; she would need to be nerfed to compensate, but how best to do that without making her get hard countered by characters that aren't as reliant on abusing those two weaknesses? and so forth) which I think would be better spent elsewhere.
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GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Was thinking the exact same thing.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Sorry that this is so far back, but I just caught up with the thread and couldn't let this go with no comment.
This is just plain wrong. You never get guaranteed grabs or side b's. Ever. Plain and simple. Side b has 12 frames of startup and ASC takes 17 frames, so neither kind of grab ever is free. It is relatively reasonable to expect frame perfect inputs for buffered spot dodges/rolls and for the Lucario player (cancels can be buffered during hitlag). Fsmash is Lucario's highest damage move, but doesn't line up with the spacing of side b. Even if it did, it does 9 frames of shield stun. Buffer spot dodge avoids that. A more reasonable move to land on shield would be nair, even though it comes out frame 9. Strong nair does 15, which does 8 frames of shield stun. That still can be buffer spot dodge to escape. If you are talking about normal grabs, ASC is not broken. People think its way better then it actually is. Go into debug, input nB, which has a hitbox frame 3 iirc (and thats bad for shield pressure because shield stun doesn't stack, so it cancels it out...) and you can cancel on like frame 14 and that takes 3 frames before you can act. This is all of the top of my head, but that makes it a FAF of 18. Plus 7 frames for grab and that's 25 frames.
This isn't to say Lucario shield pressure isn't top 5 in the game, free grabs aren't the reason. Lucario has lots of layers to his shield pressure that can make it difficult to avoid them, but characters like Fox especially can punish lucario shield pressure, you just need to find when they try to reset their chain or go for the side b.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Peeps be complaining about Lucas' Down-B free shield pressure. They don't know about that RAR Lucario aura sphere tech LOL.
Also teleport M2 shadowball
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
I've posted at excruciating length previously in this thread, and it's probably as easy for you to find those posts as it is for me. >.>
The tl;dr:
- Smaller with less reach (a much bigger nerf than it sounds like, especially against other chars with reach like Marth and ROB)
- Better and faster grounded moves (especially smashes)
- Much bigger flame breath
- Much better koopa klaw
- Weaker tipper fair / less dependence on it as a kill move
- Less braindead combo game on fastfallers
- Better combo/punish game on floaties
- Less and weaker armor (removed from Klaw, weakened on dash attack and nair)
There's more, but that's the most important stuff. I also have a really cool idea for his utilt, which i've discussed with cmart (but would prefer to leave as a surprise in the unlikely event that it actually makes it into a patch)
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The Baron
Smash Apprentice
That sounds cool. Would you change any of his moves, or just his weight size and speed?
Edit: and a wild odds appears to answer that question.
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I've still wanted a flame orb from bowser ever since I found out the PMDT tested it back around 2.1 and didn't think it'd work
but then that's because it would turn bowser into SF4 gouken, and SF4 gouken is SO COOL
but then that's because it would turn bowser into SF4 gouken, and SF4 gouken is SO COOL
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
inb4 DDD discussion
ddd is high midtier if not for the sole reason that he has a winning mu against fox
please don't let me talk about RNG, I'm a loose animal and I'll kill the tier list thread again
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
ddd gets shafted more often than otherwise by rng
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
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- 1,674
ripple just ****ing beat westballz because he got a gordo what are you talking about
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
if you look through that game there's multiple situations where he got a gordo and would have been better off with a waddle, least of all when he's trying to waddle dash
also ripple had like five opportunities for gimps before he got the gordo, and someone posted in the other thread about how having a regular waddle still would have set up for a gimp in that situation