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Tier List Speculation

Bazkip

Bazkip

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Snake's uthrow (derp) is pretty dumb imo, cause he gets a sticky out of it too. It chain grabs you, it stickies you, and then a bit later sets up the kill for the sticky. Not to mention it can kill on it's own and at not that crazily high percentages.

Also I'd gladly trade how long Ganon's chain grab goes in exchange for improving other things (like being able to grab people in the first place holy **** the range makes me cry)
 
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Phan7om

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
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Bazkip said:
Snake's dthrow is pretty dumb imo, cause he gets a sticky out of it too. It chain grabs you, it stickies you, and then a bit later sets up the kill for the sticky. Not to mention it can kill on it's own and not that crazily high percentages.

Also I'd gladly trade how long Ganon's chain grab goes in exchange for improving other things (like being able to grab people in the first place holy **** the range makes me cry)
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You mean Uthrow, Dthrow never kills and auto tech chases you.
 
Mr.Random

Mr.Random

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Despite some of the crap Melee elitists say I think PM has a ton of good balance when it comes to making characters effective. I just hope 3.5 just tones down the dumb stuff that's in the game like certain recoveries and moves. By toning down I mean slightly tweaking. I don't want overbuffed or overnerfed characters. Well designed characters that come to mind are ZSS, Diddy, Ivysaur, Donkey Kong, Roy, Marth, Meta Knight, Sheik, Zelda, Luigi, G&W, etc. those are off the top of my head.
 
jtm94

jtm94

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Player -0 said:
Zelda having brawl sweetspots for a setup character that limits where the enemy can go is weird. She also has a lot of other attacks that kill well.
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Zelda is very overpowered. There is no need for a move that KOs at 60% regardless of positioning on a neutral stage. Dins literately lands the kick for you because of how much control it offers. It's like if Snake could plant mines that detonate themselves anywhere on the stage, or in the air, without even being there. Her utilt is not only invincible, but has fast startup for it's KO power and will put you off the top around 110%. Her Dsmash used to get praised for it's speed and power, but now it is completely outclassed by all of her other moves. I mean her jab sets up for a kick or grab which leads into kill throw and free dins fire harassment. All Zelda has to do is run away and dins enough until a kick will KO at 60% or lower, heaven forbid she had a Melee-sized hitbox. weak kick even combos into strong kick and uair is disjointed enough to juggle any character as long as you don't mess up and will KO faster than most juggle moves.
 
InfinityCollision

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,245
Mr.Random said:
>Zelda is overpowered
No.
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^

She's really not overpowered at all. If not for the incoming recovery nerfs likely benefiting her, I'd have been tempted to speculate about possible buffs in 3.5, or at least some tweaks to depolarize her matchups slightly.

Though the ongoing rumor seems to be that she's getting an overhaul, for better or for worse. I don't play Zelda, but it'd be a shame if that translated into her playstyle being heavily altered.
 
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jtm94

jtm94

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Zelda's kick is arbitrary because it KOs early, but was made unnecessarily strict to land. Consistency > random KOs and/or people living when they shouldn't. There wasn't anything wrong with Melee hitbox and KB, at the least do Melee hitbox with a toned down Brawl Sweetspot. Dins fire really doesn't control anything, any character with average movement can negate all the work put into using dins by just not playing into them or going through them. Everything else that is strong is on her slow character and isn't exactly the easiest to land. Utilt is sort of fast but baitable, fsmash isn't really a good argument.
 
Phan7om

Phan7om

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Paradoxium said:
Fun fact Pikachu beats Zelda, and Pikachu is considered "Low Tier"
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Yeah, but just because a character beats a (meaning singular) seemingly better one in the matchup doesnt automatically make that character better. If it was all/most floaties it would be different.
 
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Ripple

Ripple

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I hear zelda is getting nerfed in 3.5. Zelda mains aren't gonna like that at all
 
P

Phaiyte

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Pikachu also pretty much beats pretty Fox and Falco and anyone else that falls quickly, so like w/e dudes lol.

Anyways, no, Zelda is not OP. If you have a problem with Zelda, you have a problem with positioning. Anything with a hitbox will destroy a Din's, like, Falco lasers lol. But seriously, any aerial in the game. You can even jab them if you want to and they're low enough to the ground. You know who else that has a jab that can lead directly into a kill move? Fox. You know who else has one that is a little harder to land but still very relevant? Ganon's jab > DACUS setup. If you don't hit with DACUS it's free shield pressure. Aayyyyy lmao
 
Paradoxium

Paradoxium

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Phaiyte said:
Pikachu also pretty much beats pretty Fox and Falco and anyone else that falls quickly, so like w/e dudes lol.
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Being a fast faller doesn't automatically make Pikachu win the match up, its the fact that Zelda cant deal with Pikachu's shield pressure and mobility.
 
P

Phaiyte

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Paradoxium said:
Being a fast faller doesn't automatically make Pikachu win the match up, its the fact that Zelda cant deal with Pikachu's shield pressure and mobility.
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Most fast fallers have a really hard time comboing Pikachu much less killing him. Meanwhile he can combo the **** out of them easily and do some insanely easy gimps when they're forced to stand in place when they upB.
 
KayB

KayB

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Phaiyte said:
Most fast fallers have a really hard time comboing Pikachu much less killing him. Meanwhile he can combo the **** out of them easily and do some insanely easy gimps when they're forced to stand in place when they upB.
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Unless you're playing on FD, Pikachu has just about as much of a hard time comboing fast fallers as the fast fallers can combo Pikachu. The match up still hasn't changed from Melee, and QAC can only do so much. And Fox doesn't have that much of a hard time killing Pikachu. Pikachu is relatively light; that mixed with the fact that Fox is pretty much uair and Up smash for days makes him formidable. It's not easy, but it's certainly not as hard as you make it sound like. Falco also controls the stage well, and using pillaring he can still net ridiculous amounts of damage on Pikachu on FD and even on normal stages. Pikachu vs Spacies is only a bad match up if the spacies don't know what they're doing, but the match ups themselves are certainly not as bad as you claim them to be.
 
Paradoxium

Paradoxium

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KayB said:
Unless you're playing on FD, Pikachu has just about as much of a hard time comboing fast fallers as the fast fallers can combo Pikachu. The match up still hasn't changed from Melee, and QAC can only do so much. And Fox doesn't have that much of a hard time killing Pikachu. Pikachu is relatively light; that mixed with the fact that Fox is pretty much uair and Up smash for days makes him formidable. It's not easy, but it's certainly not as hard as you make it sound like. Falco also controls the stage well, and using pillaring he can still net ridiculous amounts of damage on Pikachu on FD and even on normal stages. Pikachu vs Spacies is only a bad match up if the spacies don't know what they're doing, but the match ups themselves are certainly not as bad as you claim them to be.
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Yo I think the Falco match up is bad for Pikachu, but I think the Fox match up is pretty even. He Uair juggles are actually a thing now because his Uair actually deals damage and can be comboed into bair, which hits them to the side setting up for edge guards. His bair is also a more reliable ko move as well. I believe dtilt has less cooldown, so you can dash out of it sooner (I may be wrong). I really do believe that match up got better even though Pikachu kinda lost final Destination.
 
KayB

KayB

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Phaiyte said:
Somehow I'm PRETTY SURE SilentWolf knows a thing or two about PIkachu, but whatever you say, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj7IX18ccdY
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S3rWZjR6Wk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00YiBfyi58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDHgKf_gquA

My point is that the match up isn't as free as you say it is, not to mention excluding game 3, games 1 and 2 of SW vs Axe were pretty close. I'm trying to have a conversation here, stop trying to sound so sarcastic.
 
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jtm94

jtm94

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Citing one instance of Pikachu winning doesn't prove anything. It's an isolated incident and Pika still loses the MU.

I'm excited for Zelda changes. I'll get a good laugh at her inability to function as a character.
 
GP&B

GP&B

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Instantly knew it was the 4-stock video. Sorry but the exception is not the rule, especially when Axe reguarly keeps it close with top Fox players otherwise.
 
Phan7om

Phan7om

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I lol at people with that logic, saying Pika beats fastfallers because there was a video of that character beating/4 stocking one of them.

Its like, could I pull up Hack's Kirby vs Ice, or Captain Jack and say that Kirby counters Marth and Sheik?... lol no.

True Pika has tools against fastfallers, but some miss the fact that Fox most likely has better tricks against Pika that isnt fully utilized because of matchup unfamiliarity. Salem vs M2K, Amsa vs M2k, and Axe vs SW (and more, cant think of them right now off the top of my head) all fall in that category imo. On top of that, you have to dumb it down to personal stability. Unless everyone is playing at TAS level, Tier Lists, Matchups, and the like are not going to be 100% correct... could be close to accurate but not correct. Also people never are playing at 100% of their full potential 100% of the time.

Just saying, taking ONE instance of something and concluding a matchup ratio out of it is very flawed. Player skill becomes involved as well.
 
Paradoxium

Paradoxium

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I hate how everyone is always linking the Axe 4 stock vid, it doesn't prove anything, Silentwolf ALWAYS chokes. ALWAYS.

And 4 stock vids don't prove ****. Remember when Mango 4 stocked Leffen? Does that mean Falco destroys Fox? How about when Neo **** on husband, does that mean Roy beats Marth? No it doesn't. I believe the pikachu Fox match up is either in Pikachu's favor or it's even, but there is no evidence to back that up yet and the match up is deemed negative in melee.

So for now, it's just speculation...

Tier list speculation...
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

#meleegangordontbang
 
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Plum

Plum

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If we took Silent Wolf matches at face value we would be saying Sopo has a good matchup against Fox.
 
GP&B

GP&B

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I can't imagine Mario receiving anything significant beyond recovery nerf, Melee pill properties, and maybe Dthrow nerf. He'll be back to high tier if nothing else because he was already solid to begin with.
 
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