Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Peahnuts]

No, he made big mistakes there. He airdodged and ZeRo just waited for it.
He should have used dSpecial to get away instead.

He prolly could have flip jumped but maybe not. He seemed to have forgotton about flip jump at the end. You could tell when his grab reads were off he got destroyed.

Yeah, suppose he just forgot about it in the moment. It's good to know that we have that option though. I'm still unclear about whether airdodging/jumping/flip jumping is the best option still, because I was under the impression you can airdodge out of hitstun faster than other options?

 

[David Viran]

Yeah, suppose he just forgot about it in the moment. It's good to know that we have that option though. I'm still unclear about whether airdodging/jumping/flip jumping is the best option still, because I was under the impression you can airdodge out of hitstun faster than other options?

You can. Then attack aka flip jump and after that jump. But only out of throws apparantly.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah, suppose he just forgot about it in the moment. It's good to know that we have that option though. I'm still unclear about whether airdodging/jumping/flip jumping is the best option still, because I was under the impression you can airdodge out of hitstun faster than other options?

The problem wasn't that it wouldn't have been fast enough, the problem was that Nairo air dodged, Zero just waited for the air dodge to end, and then uAir'd Nairo. 3 Times, 3 kills.

 

[David Viran]

Anyway congrats to @Nairo for taking 2nd.

 

[pichuthedk]

Couldn't he have di"d up and away -> flip jump so it took zero longer to get there for the up air?

2 zss's top 8 say doh <- deserves second post and the results pictures framed with those 2 kawaii zero suits.

 

[Take 5]

I think every uSpecial miss after uAir > uAir Nairo had was because the uSpecial was too low, not (only) because ZeRo DI'd correctly

And yeah, paralizer is pretty bad against Sheik, I know this first hand.

I really loved the matches though. So dynamic.
And Nairo's grab game was beyond beautiful.

ZeRo's DI on the actual boost kick as well were really reaaaaally good. Nairo VS ZeRo really made me want to see more of his ZSS but it kind of also showed how evident her flaws are in high level (and even mid level) play. Her grab is just so shoddy. Literally got so hyped every time Nairo landed a grab. Kind of feel like Sheik just frame datas all over ZSS ahah. Mad props to Nairo though (and ZeRo).

Also for the sheik uairs that led to death, was ZSS still in hitstun? Or could Nairo have flip jumped out of there? I felt like there was a reason he wasn't air dodging.

Point of clarification: Yes, I meant the DI on the last hit of boost kick (where ZeRo got sent far off-screen but avoided the blast zone), not the u-airs in between.

Anyway IMO Nairo will have to be more on point with the grab reads (easier said than done) to take ZeRo down in the future. It boils down to ZSS' fantastic punish game vs. Sheik's superior neutral.

 

[pichuthedk]

Sheik is just a head ache in general and that develops into cancer or a migraine after 8+ games zzz.

 

[Peahnuts]

Yeah I couldn't imagine having to take 3 games off a Sheik of that caliber, and if you failed to do so, attempt to take 6 games in a GF reset. Whether you win or you lose, you would come out less sane lol.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Sheik is just a head ache in general and that develops into cancer or a migraine after 8+ games zzz.

Why is everything compared to cancer? I really am trying not to laugh every time I see a comment, but I see players referring to bad players of tier characters as "cancerous."

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I personally like zair vs Sheik's neutral... but uhh, I'm several calibers below Nairo, so take that with a grain of salt, ha ha

 

[Remzi]

Needles sort of invalidate both zair and paralyzer. I try to use both very sparingly in the Sheik matchup

 

[David Viran]

Needles sort of invalidate both zair and paralyzer. I try to use both very sparingly in the Sheik matchup

Why don't I see zss's read needles and punish with flip jump.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Why don't I see zss's read needles and punish with flip jump.

Because soft reading in high level play can backfire easily, especially with something like sex kick.

 

[David Viran]

Because soft reading in high level play can backfire easily, especially with something like sex kick.

Nairo goes for grab reads all the time and that is extremly unsafe on whiff.

 

[NickRiddle]

Why don't I see zss's read needles and punish with flip jump.

Nairo goes for grab reads all the time and that is extremly unsafe on whiff.

People go for grab reads with ZSS so opponents don't hold shield against us for the entire game.
I actually DO go for the flip-jump reads vs. needles, but it's very scary every single time, ESPECIALLY against a Sheik of ZeRo's caliber... One mistake results in a lot of damage + stage disadvantage, something you never really want at the very top level.

 

[David Viran]

People go for grab reads with ZSS so opponents don't hold shield against us for the entire game.
I actually DO go for the flip-jump reads vs. needles, but it's very scary every single time, ESPECIALLY against a Sheik of ZeRo's caliber... One mistake results in a lot of damage + stage disadvantage, something you never really want at the very top level.

Just saying, especially at kill percents, you can make the sheik think twice before throwing needles every 2 seconds.

 

[pichuthedk]

Why is everything compared to cancer? I really am trying not to laugh every time I see a comment, but I see players referring to bad players of tier characters as "cancerous."

nah it's just when you watch the capabilities coupled with the fact that you should be trying your best to win the match it just kills people to watch, that's probably why people still john about mk in brawl. However being honest that term is used out of context quite a bit xD.

 

[DeLux]

So I've lost at least one set per tournament for the last three tournaments by going for flip kick underneath the stage.

Spoiler: My resolution for next tournament?

Land flip kick underneath the stage #fullhorizontal

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I've lost at least one set per tournament for the last three tournaments by going for flip kick underneath the stage.

Spoiler: My resolution for next tournament?

Land flip kick underneath the stage #fullhorizontal

Seems to be the obvious solution.

 

[David Viran]

I'm starting to wonder if our grab really can be reliably spot dodged on reaction. I know that it should be due to frame 16 being reactable but is it really in the pressure of a match? Nairo vs. zero I noticed that nairo was getting grabs on zero when he could have spot dodged. I also saw nairo scare zero into spot dodgeing once when nairo didn't go for a grab. And we all know zero has a ridiculous reaction time.

 

[Shaya]

Think of it like this (and sorry if this doesn't make sense #_#)
Opponent is in the lag of a move/action otherwise, and during that small down time you're already dashing or being 'confusing' (zss holding shield in front of someone's face about to land or something is usually pretty scary), if you're grabbing in that time, even if you have 10 frame reaction speed you may have as low as 1-2 frames 'time' to actually spot dodge. While ZeRo is a monster of managing near perfect timing in stuff like this (like if there's a 10 frame window to do something he's capable of getting it out there in 1 frame reliably) in pressure that isn't so reliable.

A big part of reaction is anticipation. If you know something is coming (and ZeRo's smartness / skill of the game makes him the best or most likely of knowing) then reliably spot dodging it is more than easy. But if you're forcing someone into a guessing game or a lack of confidence then you'll get it.

So for us, the more we make people dislike shielding because of other things (well spaced bairs/nairs, ftilts in a safe manner) then their focus on avoiding the grab is going to go down and the speed of someone's reactions are getting worse for sure because of it.

As I've stated many times now. ZSS' grab being reactable requires us to anticipate/react to shield drops to "nullify" it. We can dance around people, and shields while dissipating slowly and recharging quickly can't be held forever; we also have tons of leg moves that can hit people where shields aren't covering. That's the future of ZSS mains at top level, I'm 200% certain.
In a literal sense our requirement for success is 7 frame anticipation while opponents require 13-14 frame reaction speed. But our character is so bonkers that our rewards being 2x as potent to compensate is underselling ZSS's strength A LOT.

Yeah shield drops are only 7 frames, chances of reacting to that in parity is pretty low but not humanly impossible. But if you see a shield you're certain already that it's going to be 18 frames before they can do a shield drop action; that's -a lot of room- for anticipation as it is. Majority of players have a very easy to learn/understand shield holding patterns based on what you're doing and where you are in any given moment

-
As always, I refer to my Marth experience, where ultimately me being competitive with him at high level in Brawl at an international level required me timing my attacks for when people dropped their shields. I had the nonreactable fast fall into grab as an alternative to fairing to try to keep people honest, but otherwise I needed to time my **** to either be super well spaced or hitting gaps in their shield (from depletion or them doing an action) or I would lose/get punished constantly.

 

[DeLux]

I think another thing to factor is that the correct response to most of our pressure options is an aggressive forward roll. This is significant because it's super counter meta, since it's normally such a heavy commitment to most characters to do this as a standard staple option. Thus the players that have quite a bit of experience playing against ZSS do much better since they are more geared towards doing the wonky but correct option if that makes sense.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I've been grinding forward rolls into my training partner a lot. Once they start getting how to implement it themselves I'll start being able to super-theory-practice that in our dittos.

It definitely is REALLY powerful against her.

 

[T-Loc]

Hey guys, long time lurker that decided to finally give in and make an account. Anyways, THIS:

I think another thing to factor is that the correct response to most of our pressure options is an aggressive forward roll. This is significant because it's super counter meta, since it's normally such a heavy commitment to most characters to do this as a standard staple option. Thus the players that have quite a bit of experience playing against ZSS do much better since they are more geared towards doing the wonky but correct option if that makes sense.

Say we FF NAir into an opponent's forward roll, the only real response I can think of is a B Tilt read attempt for a measly 7% and no followups. Anything else just seems too slow or risky.

At least against people playing like ZeRo's Sheik at CEO and abusing the dash-->shied-->OOS options, we can play mildly disadvantageous high risk/reward mind games, but it seems like forward rolls kind of leave us dead in the water. Thoughts on how we can deal with this type of counter play?

 

[DeLux]

Hey guys, long time lurker that decided to finally give in and make an account. Anyways, THIS:



Say we FF NAir into an opponent's forward roll, the only real response I can think of is a side tilt for a measly 7% and no followups. Anything else just seems too slow or risky. Any ideas on how to deal with/avoid this counterplay, besides crossing our fingers?

You should mixup empty land > boost kick behind you on the roll read and let me know how you like the feeling of winning

 

[Shaya]

But yeah, my theory/practice for handling both forward rolls and good shielding is back air stance (DeLux may give it a fancy name at some point if he embraces it fully).

Back air is our fastest/best bet for outranging (silly disjointed foot that primarily hits ABOVE the swing animation) just about everything while being -pretty- safe on shield due to in part the larger shield stun/pushback. As it's faster start up and flattens the body the amount of leeway one has to time back airs with slow or fast falls is greater than nair by -a lot- (which has more dangley legs in the start up of the move and hence lands before hitbox out/her midair squatting).

While facing backwards we can retreat in expectation of people trying to dash punish (or wall attempt, but that's precarious) and to some extent can also cover the forward roll distances with the back air. Alternatively nairing (I hilariously find a lot of scenarions where nairing for the backwards hit is worthwhile), first hit fairing or dairing (the behind hit for it is a strong hit confirm for combos) said forward rolls; or charging paralyzer.
And then if you feel comfortable they will let you, breverse/wavebouncing paralyzer which the latter is quite a large 'bounce' forward and gets me -many- point blank paralyzers that are straight boost kicks/fsmashes, if you're at roll distance and they aren't moving already then a semi charged paralyzer is as we know safe at a certain distance.

Maybe I should make a video for this stuff.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

But yeah, my theory/practice for handling both forward rolls and good shielding is back air stance (DeLux may give it a fancy name at some point if he embraces it fully).

Back air is our fastest/best bet for outranging (silly disjointed foot that primarily hits ABOVE the swing animation) just about everything while being -pretty- safe on shield due to in part the larger shield stun/pushback. As it's faster start up and flattens the body the amount of leeway one has to time back airs with slow or fast falls is greater than nair by -a lot- (which has more dangley legs in the start up of the move and hence lands before hitbox out/her midair squatting).

While facing backwards we can retreat in expectation of people trying to dash punish (or wall attempt, but that's precarious) and to some extent can also cover the forward roll distances with the back air. Alternatively nairing (I hilariously find a lot of scenarions where nairing for the backwards hit is worthwhile), first hit fairing or dairing (the behind hit for it is a strong hit confirm for combos) said forward rolls; or charging paralyzer.
And then if you feel comfortable they will let you, breverse/wavebouncing paralyzer which the latter is quite a large 'bounce' forward and gets me -many- point blank paralyzers that are straight boost kicks/fsmashes, if you're at roll distance and they aren't moving already then a semi charged paralyzer is as we know safe at a certain distance.

Maybe I should make a video for this stuff.

I'm also a friend of bAir > move in opponent direction > B-reverse nSpecial, effectively making the nSpecial safer because of the gained distance.
People anticipating a melee attack run into it from time to time.

 

[DeLux]

And we shall call it the Big Papa, since you have to be a papa bear to pop a bair.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

And we shall call it the Big Papa, since you have to be a papa bear to pop a bair.

Excellent as always.
We should really do a summary thread for all the names.

 

[pichuthedk]

But yeah, my theory/practice for handling both forward rolls and good shielding is back air stance (DeLux may give it a fancy name at some point if he embraces it fully).

Back air is our fastest/best bet for outranging (silly disjointed foot that primarily hits ABOVE the swing animation) just about everything while being -pretty- safe on shield due to in part the larger shield stun/pushback. As it's faster start up and flattens the body the amount of leeway one has to time back airs with slow or fast falls is greater than nair by -a lot- (which has more dangley legs in the start up of the move and hence lands before hitbox out/her midair squatting).

While facing backwards we can retreat in expectation of people trying to dash punish (or wall attempt, but that's precarious) and to some extent can also cover the forward roll distances with the back air. Alternatively nairing (I hilariously find a lot of scenarions where nairing for the backwards hit is worthwhile), first hit fairing or dairing (the behind hit for it is a strong hit confirm for combos) said forward rolls; or charging paralyzer.
And then if you feel comfortable they will let you, breverse/wavebouncing paralyzer which the latter is quite a large 'bounce' forward and gets me -many- point blank paralyzers that are straight boost kicks/fsmashes, if you're at roll distance and they aren't moving already then a semi charged paralyzer is as we know safe at a certain distance.

Maybe I should make a video for this stuff.

I've been a fan of the backwards hit of Nair forever xD. I have also noticed the behind hit of dair although I never really combo with it when I land that I always look for them to just fly up helplessly so I can just bair them, What kind of things can I get out of this I almost feel like I'm being greedy pondering a jump canceled boost kick D;.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I've been a fan of the backwards hit of Nair forever xD. I have also noticed the behind hit of dair although I never really combo with it when I land that I always look for them to just fly up helplessly so I can just bair them, What kind of things can I get out of this I almost feel like I'm being greedy pondering a jump canceled boost kick D;.

I don't really get many followups with back nAir but the hitbox really catches my opponents off guard.
I get behind hit dAir > bAir quite often though.

 

[pichuthedk]

I don't really get many followups with back nAir but the hitbox really catches my opponents off guard.
I get behind hit dAir > bAir quite often though.

yeah pretty much the same I Must not have phrased that properly I was referring to only the behind hit of dair - > bair

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

And we shall call it the Big Papa, since you have to be a papa bear to pop a bair.

omg Lux

 

[Shamurai Formerly]

I'm looking for a Samus player skilled enough to shut me down in embarrassing ways for a video I'm trying to put together. Anybody willing to go a few?

 

[pichuthedk]

I'm looking for a Samus player skilled enough to shut me down in embarrassing ways for a video I'm trying to put together. Anybody willing to go a few?

Depending on how the rng goddess feels like treating me today I might have time, what's your exp with zammy?

My NNID is 0_suit_ryoko

 

[infiniteV115]

If you guys haven't gotten the memo yet, I'm amazing.

/NRimpersonation

 

[NickRiddle]

If you guys haven't gotten the memo yet, I'm amazing.

/NRimpersonation

Hey now, I don't say I'm amazing, I say that everybody sucks.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

calm your **** guys

 

[NickRiddle]

calm your **** guys

No .

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

No .

Win a national then