The Whole Rosalina Nerf Argument

[AnchorTea]

Ever since the Rosalina trailer, many Smashers have been claiming that Rosalina is OP (The term that twist and turns our souls) Of course, this isn't true. Heck, the term OP is used wrongly many times. The only character that was really OP in the smash series was Meta Knight, and that's it. Slightly-OP does exist though.

Trying not to get side-tracked. Even after the last major patch, many Smashers still claim Rosalina is still too powerful.

This is very debatable, since Rosalina becomes slightly useless without Luma (slightly) and with Luma she becomes a character with better options. Luma isn't too hard to kill, but a reinforcement comes very quickly.

She has a huge hitbox also, that means she is more susceptible to combos (in theory) She is kinda slow and floaty. This description would make you think Rosalina is low, if not, mid tier at best. This is just simply not true though.

Discuss.

 

[JohnnyB]

I think she's pretty balanced for the reasons you mentioned. The large hutbox, low weight, and lack of speed make her an easy character to KO.

The only thing i think i would like to see is Luma taking longer to come back after he gets knocked out, but at the same time all that would do is absolutely kill some of her MUs that aren't very favorable already. Ultimately this would just create a deficit for the character that is unnecessary and does nothing to help balance the game.

She is a very balanced character imo. She doesn't have anything that's abusibly op (like diddys hoo ha or Ness with his Bthrow), and yet she has the tools to deal with most of the cast. Her skill ceiling is very high, she has a unique playstyle, and her incredible strengths are offset by incredible weaknesses. To me those are the things that make a character well designed and balanced.

 

[Parcheesy]

Yup?

Not entirely sure what you want us to discuss here that hasn't already been explained to the plethora of people making the "Rosalina is OP" threads. She's light, has a killable disjoint, and she's certainly not OP with Luma dead. She's balanced, but requires her opponent to understand and play around her most notable gimmicks.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosalina isn't a low speed character, her movement speed stats are all above average except for fall speed, and her attacks are quite quick across the board. And her fast fall speed is more than quick enough to get you down to the ground again. And then you have Lunar Landing.

I don't think she has any huge weaknesses to be quite frank. There is the "large frame, low weight" thing, but it's very easily mooted if you are a good enough player, who knows how to use Luma like a second player rather than a mere disjoint. Rosalina's biggest weaknesses are her barrier to entry, and her flawed representation in tournaments that hamper her meta growth. Those aren't weaknesses of the character though, they are really just weaknesses of Smash players/Rosalina players in particular.

She doesn't need any nerfs, in fact, I would like one or two buffs (DON'T GO CRAZY, I want way more significant buffs on other characters!). I think her grab range is the opposite of Marth's grab range in Melee - it's unnaturally short. Her pivot grab is REALLY good, but her other grabs have way shorter range than the animations and her whole "force choke" grabbing animation would imply, making it something that's surprisingly hard to use at times. Especially considering they did give her extra cooldown on her grabs on the last patch. I'd also like if her N-air had a TAD more range. I thought it was fine originally to be honest, now it, again, feels unnaturally short.

In general, I consider these buffs "polishing" more than anything - I hate things like a character's hitbox for a move not actually having an area of effect as large as their weapon or body part would imply. Meta Knight has that problem in spades in this game, in particular. It's a pet peeve of mine, I guess

To be honest, I do get the OP claims in some ways. Though I guess it stands to reason that the character I feel is the best in the game is a character that I would expect to be called OP. Unlike Brawl Meta Knight who was just a win button almost, even for new players, Rosalina actually takes a lot of practice to be at a level that would make her OP, and I don't think any single player in the world has even come close to unlocking her full potential.

 

[JohnnyB]

Just to clarify. When i said lack of speed i didn't mean she was a slow character, i just meant that she wasn't fast.

When you combine that with her huge hurtbox and low weight you get a character that can be killed much easier if read than someone heavier/faster.

Not that I'm any kind of Rosalina expert or anything, I've only just started learning her.

 

[ChikoLad]

Just to clarify. When i said lack of speed i didn't mean she was a slow character, i just meant that she wasn't fast.

When you combine that with her huge hurtbox and low weight you get a character that can be killed much easier if read than someone heavier/faster.

Not that I'm any kind of Rosalina expert or anything, I've only just started learning her.

She is fast though. Her speed is above average. She covers ground pretty quickly, and outclasses most of the cast in midair movement speed, as well as attack speed. Then Luma is even quicker on the ground on his own, something a lot of people don't seem to realise. His dashing speed is like twice as fast as Rosalina's.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

Before you start. Yes. I am making a dumb choice posting this since Nerfing is a very touchy topic, and this thread might be locked due to that.

Anyway, ever since the Rosalina trailer, many Smashers have been claiming that Rosalina is OP (The term that twist and turns our souls) Of course, this isn't true. Heck, the term OP is used wrongly many times. The only character that was really OP in the smash series was Meta Knight, and that's it. Slightly-OP does exist though.

Trying not to get side-tracked. Even after the last major patch, many Smashers still claim Rosalina is still too powerful.

This is very debatable, since Rosalina becomes slightly useless without Luma (slightly) and with Luma she becomes a character with better options. Luma isn't too hard to kill, but a reinforcement comes very quickly.

She has a huge hitbox also, that means she is more susceptible to combos (in theory) She is kinda slow and floaty. This description would make you think Rosalina is low, if not, mid tier at best. This is just simply not true though.

Discuss.

I think she's pretty balanced for the reasons you mentioned. The large hutbox, low weight, and lack of speed make her an easy character to KO.

The only thing i think i would like to see is Luma taking longer to come back after he gets knocked out, but at the same time all that would do is absolutely kill some of her MUs that aren't very favorable already. Ultimately this would just create a deficit for the character that is unnecessary and does nothing to help balance the game.

She is a very balanced character imo. She doesn't have anything that's abusibly op (like diddys hoo ha or Ness with his Bthrow), and yet she has the tools to deal with most of the cast. Her skill ceiling is very high, she has a unique playstyle, and her incredible strengths are offset by incredible weaknesses. To me those are the things that make a character well designed and balanced.

Thank you for not being one of those "NERF THE OP ***** TO THE GROUND" kind of people, while I do agree with the both of you, she is most likely because there are many people that do not capitalize and the weaknesses you pointed out and all they do is complain. If they increased Luma's re-spawn timer Rosalina would definitely suffer, even now the timer isn't truly 12.55 seconds because when Luma gets thrown off the stage it has to fall into the blast zone which takes ~3 seconds, same goes for when you remove all of its HP

 

[ChikoLad]

People are capitalising on weaknesses like knocking Luma off just fine for the most part, it's when Rosalina players start learning how to moot that weakness and her other ones is when she becomes terrifying. That being said, those people likely are just basing the nerf requests on nothing but their dislike of how they perceive the character's playstyle and meta to be (i.e. defensive character, relies on Luma and runs away when Luma gets knocked off).

It should also be noted that Rosalina or any other character getting much in the way of buffs or nerfs is unlikely. If you do recall, the last patch for 3DS DID include character tweaking, mainly removing some glitches and unintentional programming exploits, such as jumping during Palutena's Super Speed special retaining it's momentum. As a result, the Wii U and 3DS versions are currently out of sync. I think the character balancing we are getting is just for Wii U, to bring it into sync with the 3DS version. Rosalina was not effected by the last 3DS patch, so if the patch is just bringing the Wii U version in sync with it, she will continue to be unchanged.

 

[AnchorTea]

She is fast though. Her speed is above average. She covers ground pretty quickly, and outclasses most of the cast in midair movement speed, as well as attack speed. Then Luma is even quicker on the ground on his own, something a lot of people don't seem to realise. His dashing speed is like twice as fast as Rosalina's.

Not to mention that D-Smash requires like no read. (I might be wrong though)

 

[ChikoLad]

D-Smash did get a nerf in the first balance patch in that it was given a bit more cool down, so you do kinda have to read if you wanna avoid a punish, but it is quite difficult to miss with the move, especially if you're great at positioning Luma to increase the coverage of the move, or even to play ping pong.

 

[mario123007]

D-Smash did get a nerf in the first balance patch in that it was given a bit more cool down, so you do kinda have to read if you wanna avoid a punish, but it is quite difficult to miss with the move, especially if you're great at positioning Luma to increase the coverage of the move, or even to play ping pong.

You mean the Rosalina Luma down smash combo right?

 

[ChikoLad]

You mean the Rosalina Luma down smash combo right?

Yep.

 

[mario123007]

Yep.

I don't really know how to utilize it very well. I don't think anyone will be so easily to fell in to the combo...
Are there any videos demonstrating it?

 

[ChikoLad]

I catch people in it quite frequently. It's not that hard.

 

[mario123007]

I catch people in it quite frequently. It's not that hard.

Any videos? I want to see it in action.

 

[ChikoLad]

Any videos? I want to see it in action.

Not off the top of my head.

 

[mario123007]

Not off the top of my head.

Try to check it out, I'll try to find one too. I remember I had saw a gif image of the combo, but I can't really know where was it from.

 

[C3CC]

People who think she's OP should just learn to deal. She's not OP at all, she's just difficult to hit because of Luma. The rest is just fine.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

People who think she's OP should just learn to deal. She's not OP at all, she's just difficult to hit because of Luma. The rest is just fine.

And of course, there are fighters out there who can give Rosalina trouble, regardless of the Luma's presence.

 

[AnchorTea]

People who think she's OP should just learn to deal. She's not OP at all, she's just difficult to hit because of Luma. The rest is just fine.

Well, you know....

Her range on Smash attacks... Can't tell if too long for perfectly fine.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, you know....

Her range on Smash attacks... Can't tell if too long for perfectly fine.

It's fine. If people are getting hit by them ot's their own fault.

 

[AnchorTea]

It's fine. If people are getting hit by them ot's their own fault.

She has pretty sucky aerials also. Well, maybe not Uair, but they can only be used patiently.

 

[ChikoLad]

She has pretty sucky aerials also. Well, maybe not Uair, but they can only be used patiently.

Not at all. Rosalina is perfectly capable of rush down. What's more, her aerials tend to double as dodge maneuveurs.

 

[Glicnak]

I find it funny how many people including dabuz argue that she isnt one of the best characters. She really is. Im not saying shes op (i dont even think diddy or shiek are op, theyre just very good), but she is one of the best characters. I feel like the only reason ppl rank her lower is because shes not a pick up and play character. Diddy, luigi, ness, zss and even shiek to an extent can be picked up and used very efficiently. Rosalina is only amazing in the hands of someone who knows what theyre doing, but that doesnt make her bad. We should judge characters by their potential, not by how well the worst players can use them

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I find it funny how many people including dabuz argue that she isnt one of the best characters. She really is. Im not saying shes op (i dont even think diddy or shiek are op, theyre just very good), but she is one of the best characters. I feel like the only reason ppl rank her lower is because shes not a pick up and play character. Diddy, luigi, ness, zss and even shiek to an extent can be picked up and used very efficiently. Rosalina is only amazing in the hands of someone who knows what theyre doing, but that doesnt make her bad. We should judge characters by their potential, not by how well the worst players can use them

She is good but the thing is there are characters that are better than her, fast rush-down characters that can kill Luma and then exploit her weaknesses harder than the rest of the cast (Sheik, Sonic, Diddy, etc.)

 

[ChikoLad]

She is good but the thing is there are characters that are better than her, fast rush-down characters that can kill Luma and then exploit her weaknesses harder than the rest of the cast (Sheik, Sonic, Diddy, etc.)

If rush down characters are trouble for you, that's your own fault and not Rosalina's. She does just fine against them (I think she has the advantage against Sonic and Diddy, and things are even against Sheik). You just have to know what you're doing. For example, I main Sonic as well as Rosalina, so I know how to take on Sonic as Rosalina, and vice versa. Things are much more annoying me when I am Sonic in the MU, though.

 

[Glicnak]

She is good but the thing is there are characters that are better than her, fast rush-down characters that can kill Luma and then exploit her weaknesses harder than the rest of the cast (Sheik, Sonic, Diddy, etc.)

Fast rush down characters are a problem for most of the cast, and as a bjr main let me tell you she deals witwithj it wayyy better than most characters who struggle against it.

Also, im not saying that shes flawless or the best in the game; she has her weaknesses, but she makes up for them better than the majority of the cast. Shes in the pool of "best characters" at the moment (pre-patch and with the current metagame)

 

[Dabuz]

People that say Diddy/ Sheik aren't the best characters have never played this game at a real competitive level and shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion.

 

[ChikoLad]

Or maybe some people just handle fighting them better than others.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

Or maybe some people just handle fighting them better than others.

Would you care to show us some videos of you competing at big tournaments vs TOP level sheiks, diddy kongs, sonics etc.? I need to see some evidence for your claim's, maybe I am bad and that's why I can't handle the top characters but I would like to see you back up what you said above.

 

[ChikoLad]

Would you care to show us some videos of you competing at big tournaments vs TOP level sheiks, diddy kongs, sonics etc.? I need to see some evidence for your claim's, maybe I am bad and that's why I can't handle the top characters but I would like to see you back up what you said above.

I don't claim to compete in big tournaments (by virtue of the fact that it's literally impossible in my current life situation), but I really don't think it matters either way. I have been practicing with Rosalina whenever I get a chance and there are plenty of amazing players that don't compete in tournaments that you can fight, even sometimes in For Glory (though that's rare and there is of course the slight delay that will perpetually be there).

A player who plays in tournaments isn't automatically above everyone else, and it's not a right to any sort of ego. It simply means that player lives in a region where a Smash community is active, and has the money to travel to these various different tournaments. You could play 10 hours of the game, with one character, and still do decently in a tournament. You could play 10,000 hours of the same character, and never get a chance to enter a tournament.

If you really do need statistics from a tournament, here's some information from APEX:

Usage (Top 24): 16% (Highest)
Win Percentage (Top 8): 63%


Usage (Top 24): 13% (Second Highest)
Win Percentage (Top 8): 37%


Usage (Top 24): 4%
Win Percentage (Top 8): 54%


Usage (Top 24): 4% (Tied with everyone else besides Diddy and Sheik)
Win Percentage (Top 8): 80% (Highest)

Regardless of those statistics though, I'm not one to copy the "best" Rosalina players (in quotations because they are only the best in the Smash community spotlight, not necessarily in the world) and lay down and take a beating when top players say I should because they have trouble with an MU. Public opinion on Rosalina is that she's defensive and campy, and that it's the only way you can play her, and many Rosalina mains play like this as a result. I object to that, and do not follow that way of playing the character. I play her as a paradigm shifter.

 

[Dabuz]

Fun fact, while having the highest win %, all that player's losses (and 3 impotant wins on m2k's Diddy) come from switching to another character, realistically if that player used only rosalina, her win % would of actually been about 40% because of getting 3-0 by M2K's Diddy.

 

[ChikoLad]

That's only if they are incapable of doing so. At the end of the day, a single player =/= an entire player base or a character's potential, and a tournament roster =/= an entire player base either. I just posted the statistics because people seem to like that around here (see the MU thread, based on arbitrary numbers more than anything else). Though I do believe they are still relevant regardless.

If someone can't take on Diddy or Sheik as Rosalina and take any wins, especially across three matches straight, that is ENTIRELY their fault, as Rosalina has plenty of ways to deal with them. It's either bad reactions, gaps in MU knowledge, inherent flaws in how they play Rosalina (like the afforementioned "campy/defensive" play style - it should go without saying that this isn't going to win you every battle. There are characters focused entirely around defense, and they tend to not do well, so I don't know why people insist on playing Rosalina like that. It's a wonder anyone would even consider her a top character with that play style).

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

That's only if they are incapable of doing so. At the end of the day, a single player =/= an entire player base or a character's potential, and a tournament roster =/= an entire player base either. I just posted the statistics because people seem to like that around here (see the MU thread, based on arbitrary numbers more than anything else). Though I do believe they are still relevant regardless.

If someone can't take on Diddy or Sheik as Rosalina and take any wins, especially across three matches straight, that is ENTIRELY their fault, as Rosalina has plenty of ways to deal with them. It's either bad reactions, gaps in MU knowledge, inherent flaws in how they play Rosalina (like the afforementioned "campy/defensive" play style - it should go without saying that this isn't going to win you every battle. There are characters focused entirely around defense, and they tend to not do well, so I don't know why people insist on playing Rosalina like that. It's a wonder anyone would even consider her a top character with that play style).

You talk really big with your theories, it's almost as though you're saying that your way of playing Rosalina can beat out the top level players like ZeRo, Mr. R, 6WX. Don't you think that if there were a better way to play Rosalina, or rather if your way were the best way, Rosalina main's wouldn't have caught on by now? It's really easy to get caught up in your own ideas but when you go to these tournaments vs these players they know what your advantages are and your weaknesses as well as your strengths, there are characters that can beat out Rosalina's aggressive options, and she is not a character you can make many mistakes with because you will pay for it with your stock(s).

I don't claim to compete in big tournaments (by virtue of the fact that it's literally impossible in my current life situation), but I really don't think it matters either way. I have been practicing with Rosalina whenever I get a chance and there are plenty of amazing players that don't compete in tournaments that you can fight, even sometimes in For Glory (though that's rare and there is of course the slight delay that will perpetually be there).

A player who plays in tournaments isn't automatically above everyone else, and it's not a right to any sort of ego. It simply means that player lives in a region where a Smash community is active, and has the money to travel to these various different tournaments. You could play 10 hours of the game, with one character, and still do decently in a tournament. You could play 10,000 hours of the same character, and never get a chance to enter a tournament.

If you really do need statistics from a tournament, here's some information from APEX:

Usage (Top 24): 16% (Highest)
Win Percentage (Top 8): 63%


Usage (Top 24): 13% (Second Highest)
Win Percentage (Top 8): 37%


Usage (Top 24): 4%
Win Percentage (Top 8): 54%


Usage (Top 24): 4% (Tied with everyone else besides Diddy and Sheik)
Win Percentage (Top 8): 80% (Highest)

Regardless of those statistics though, I'm not one to copy the "best" Rosalina players (in quotations because they are only the best in the Smash community spotlight, not necessarily in the world) and lay down and take a beating when top players say I should because they have trouble with an MU. Public opinion on Rosalina is that she's defensive and campy, and that it's the only way you can play her, and many Rosalina mains play like this as a result. I object to that, and do not follow that way of playing the character. I play her as a paradigm shifter.

As for you not competing in big tournaments, how can you know your play style truly works if you haven't played in such an environment? Playing online is nothing like playing on LAN, the caliber of players you fight is unlike any you will fight online. But don't take my word for it ask other top level players, or better yet whenever you can go to a big tournament and see how you fair. I don't want to undermine your online experience because it's possible you play great players online but it will be taken with a grain of salt due to the fact most players that talk big and only play online are more often than not worse than what they say they are.

 

[ChikoLad]

You talk really big with your theories, it's almost as though you're saying that your way of playing Rosalina can beat out the top level players like ZeRo, Mr. R, 6WX. Don't you think that if there were a better way to play Rosalina, or rather if your way were the best way, Rosalina main's wouldn't have caught on by now? It's really easy to get caught up in your own ideas but when you go to these tournaments vs these players they know what your advantages are and your weaknesses as well as your strengths, there are characters that can beat out Rosalina's aggressive options, and she is not a character you can make many mistakes with because you will pay for it with your stock(s).

They're not theories. You're talking about this game like it's a decade old. It isn't. It's not even a year old. Fact. Of course most Rosalina mains wouldn't be doing much besides whats most popular.

I'm not claiming I can beat all of the top level players. I am claiming not to follow totally in their footsteps. Because that means picking up their bad habits too (in Rosalina's case, this means being defensive and campy the whole time when it clearly is not always the best way to play).

Playing online is nothing like playing on LAN

I'm aware of that. I never said online play was the best reference. I was merely pointing out that you shouldn't stereotype people on For Glory as poor players, as there are many great ones.

For the record, I play way better offline than I do online. I hate even the slightest delay, and it tends to fluctuate between matches.

 

[Wintropy]

Not even slightly overpowered, in my opinion, and certainly not in need of another nerf.

My brother's a solid Rosalina player, and while I dread fighting her, it's nothing to do with her being "broken". She just has good options and a diverse moveset that rewards putting the effort into learning it. Likewise, she gets a bad rap because she's ostensibly difficult to fight, yet in order to fight her well, you need to know how she works just like the other player.

Complex characters are naturally prone to criticism because they require you to understand the character's mechanics on a level comparable to the person actually playing them. It's why I have a difficult time fighting Olimar, for example, as I do not have the same level of understanding as my brother (who also plays Olimar - he loves complexity in his moves), and I am therefore liable to be outplayed by somebody who actually knows what they're doing.

Whatever about Rosie needing a nerf prior to 1.04, that's up for debate. Now, though? Goodness, no. That would be egregious on all counts.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

They're not theories. You're talking about this game like it's a decade old. It isn't. It's not even a year old. Fact. Of course most Rosalina mains wouldn't be doing much besides whats most popular.

I'm not claiming I can beat all of the top level players. I am claiming not to follow totally in their footsteps. Because that means picking up their bad habits too (in Rosalina's case, this means being defensive and campy the whole time when it clearly is not always the best way to play).



I'm aware of that. I never said online play was the best reference. I was merely pointing out that you shouldn't stereotype people on For Glory as poor players, as there are many great ones.

For the record, I play way better offline than I do online. I hate even the slightest delay, and it tends to fluctuate between matches.

You should really record one of your games though, I really want to see how you play. Even it's just with your phone if you don't have a capture card. Maybe you can show Rosalina main's what options they have vs Top characters, maybe you can inspire them.

 

[ChikoLad]

You should really record one of your games though, I really want to see how you play. Even it's just with your phone if you don't have a capture card. Maybe you can show Rosalina main's what options they have vs Top characters, maybe you can inspire them.

I have a few recorded matches on my YouTube but they weren't serious and were more recording tests.

I've re-iterated time and time again that I don't have the time or energy right now to get into competitive Smash at a very dedicated level, but that I will try to do more over the summer if I find the time and possibly put together some guides or at least explanation videos with some of the techniques I use that I feel Rosalina players are too afraid to try due to playing way too safe.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I have a few recorded matches on my YouTube but they weren't serious and were more recording tests.

I've re-iterated time and time again that I don't have the time or energy right now to get into competitive Smash at a very dedicated level, but that I will try to do more over the summer if I find the time and possibly put together some guides or at least explanation videos with some of the techniques I use that I feel Rosalina players are too afraid to try due to playing way too safe.

I'll be looking forward to that day :^D

 

[AnchorTea]

Complex characters are naturally prone to criticism because they require you to understand the character's mechanics on a level comparable to the person actually playing them.

People still have trouble though.