the TKD thread

[TKD]

you're thinking. thinking is dumb (somehow). just do it. but yes, you -sort of- predict dash attack/grab. what i mean by "sort of" is that you already saw mk dashing for an instant, so dash attack/grab are possible. also, you predict based on your opponent's style or you getting lucky. dash attack and very, very specially dash grab from mk get a boost, so he'll zone in VERY quickly, making it actually very difficult for shine NOT to land. remember you're invincible in frame 1? it's easy.

so it's shine, buffer dash, then a snake-style techchase? i can dig that.

as for sh dair i don't like it anymore because hopping takes so long.

uhh couple vids
http://youtu.be/zz2wepCpeMI vs dehf
http://youtu.be/ELE-6g2p79U vs mike

i'll do a writeup of alll the mistakes and possibilities i can think of for these vids sometime next week.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think you tried to challenge Mike's traps too much. I don't know if you were getting impatient or if you genuinely thought it's a good idea to do so but I'd strongly advise against going for a trade, trying to create an opening or trying to counter his option coverage when you're offstage or on the ledge. I've yet to see a high level match where the disadvantaged player managed to flip the situation into his advantage before resetting the position to neutral first and I felt you skipped that step and got punished for it. If you count together the amount of percent you took in these situations I wouldn't be surprised if it added up to a whole stock's worth of percent.

 

[Chef Fox]

Got it, no thinking, just do it. I'll try it out next time I get to a tournament.
Nice job winning against ICs on FD by the way.

Does anyone know how many frames of lag Fox has when he grab releases someone? I don't know the "normal" amount that most characters have but I'm assuming Fox doesn't have any less/more than that.

 

[knuckles213]

you're thinking. thinking is dumb (somehow). just do it. but yes, you -sort of- predict dash attack/grab. what i mean by "sort of" is that you already saw mk dashing for an instant, so dash attack/grab are possible. also, you predict based on your opponent's style or you getting lucky. dash attack and very, very specially dash grab from mk get a boost, so he'll zone in VERY quickly, making it actually very difficult for shine NOT to land. remember you're invincible in frame 1? it's easy.

so it's shine, buffer dash, then a snake-style techchase? i can dig that.

as for sh dair i don't like it anymore because hopping takes so long.

uhh couple vids
http://youtu.be/zz2wepCpeMI vs dehf
http://youtu.be/ELE-6g2p79U vs mike

i'll do a writeup of alll the mistakes and possibilities i can think of for these vids sometime next week.

TeeeKaayyDeee!

got any tips on zoning with fox? I can come up with is lasers and spacing with bairs an SH nairs

First vid: I saw some rust, but good stuff winning on FD. I didn't tink you would actually play that MU

Second vid: I was like why

 

[TKD]

just go in beast mode.

brawl is more about what you do with your connected hit than what you do about connecting it. specially as fox, as whom you should try to take half a stock each time you land something.

learning when moves work is a bit more important. for example usmashing snake at 10% will get you baired. dash attacking mk below 40-something will get you daired or naired. you also can't utilt twice in a row at 0% (because of the powerblock).

for zoning i know i use walk block, short hops, dash attack, skid cancel grab. i think you'll empty short hop more often than using it to land aerials, because it mostly aids spacing. remember to tomahawk, it's good specially as fox (they expect nair and get grabbed). learn to buffer tomahawk and learn to buffer turn-around tomahawk. very useful.

today's vids of grand finals in tj are coming soon. mostly fox vs snake.

Does anyone know how many frames of lag Fox has when he grab releases someone? I don't know the "normal" amount that most characters have but I'm assuming Fox doesn't have any less/more than that.

air releasing is 20 advantage, 19 against jigglypuff.
ground releasing is neutral, 10 disadvantage against donkey kong, 11 advantage against ness and lucas.
fox always suffers 30 cooldown frames from releasing (as everyone but bowser, who suffers 20, always giving him advantage).

 

[C.R.Z]

just go in beast mode.

brawl is more about what you do with your connected hit than what you do about connecting it. specially as fox, as whom you should try to take half a stock each time you land something.

learning when moves work is a bit more important. for example usmashing snake at 10% will get you baired. dash attacking mk below 40-something will get you daired or naired. you also can't utilt twice in a row at 0% (because of the powerblock).

for zoning i know i use walk block, short hops, dash attack, skid cancel grab. i think you'll empty short hop more often than using it to land aerials, because it mostly aids spacing. remember to tomahawk, it's good specially as fox (they expect nair and get grabbed). learn to buffer tomahawk and learn to buffer turn-around tomahawk. very useful.

today's vids of grand finals in tj are coming soon. mostly fox vs snake.


air releasing is 20 advantage, 19 against jigglypuff.
ground releasing is neutral, 10 disadvantage against donkey kong, 11 advantage against ness and lucas.
fox always suffers 30 cooldown frames from releasing (as everyone but bowser, who suffers 20, always giving him advantage).

Guys take note of short hopping. Its really important you implement empty sh ff into your zoning and spacing game, not enough player utilize it with fox. When standing at the tip of your opponents range of attack, sh ff backwards makes them whiff attacks and creates opening for whatever.

 

[knuckles213]

just go in beast mode.

brawl is more about what you do with your connected hit than what you do about connecting it. specially as fox, as whom you should try to take half a stock each time you land something.

learning when moves work is a bit more important. for example usmashing snake at 10% will get you baired. dash attacking mk below 40-something will get you daired or naired. you also can't utilt twice in a row at 0% (because of the powerblock).

for zoning i know i use walk block, short hops, dash attack, skid cancel grab. i think you'll empty short hop more often than using it to land aerials, because it mostly aids spacing. remember to tomahawk, it's good specially as fox (they expect nair and get grabbed). learn to buffer tomahawk and learn to buffer turn-around tomahawk. very useful.

.

whats a tomahawk (for fox)?

 

[TKD]

the same as anyone else. empty landing + grab.
you can buffer it from airdodge, just if you're gonna airdodge do it as late as possible so the opponent can't react to it.

i generalize, as i think tomahawk originally only referred to empty short hop to grab.
the basic tomahawk is done so your opponent doesn't know what you'll do between aerial/utilt upon landing/grab so he gets grabbed.

 

[lionarmor]

Tkd,
When are good times to shield with fox to maximize speed? I notice I tend to do it too much while getting hit/pressured, and end up putting myself in bad situations or just getting trapped.

 

[TKD]

uhh when you have enough space i guess. just unblock and walk a bit afterwards to have more control...that is, if i understood your post

 

[Chef Fox]

air releasing is 20 advantage, 19 against jigglypuff.
ground releasing is neutral, 10 disadvantage against donkey kong, 11 advantage against ness and lucas.
fox always suffers 30 cooldown frames from releasing (as everyone but bowser, who suffers 20, always giving him advantage).

Thanks TKD
So with this info I can confirm we have a ground grab release chain grab on Ness and Lucas. They suffer 40 cool down frames after grab release, and our dash grab comes out on frame 10, so you have to buffer the dash grab but it works. Not sure how useful this is to us. Oh and if Upsmash comes out frame 8 we should be able to get a guaranteed dash Upsmash out of grounded grab release.

 

[crifer]

Thanks TKD
So with this info I can confirm we have a ground grab release chain grab on Ness and Lucas. They suffer 40 cool down frames after grab release, and our dash grab comes out on frame 10, so you have to buffer the dash grab but it works. Not sure how useful this is to us. Oh and if Upsmash comes out frame 8 we should be able to get a guaranteed dash Upsmash out of grounded grab release.

Whats about the fact that they can get air released and control it?
(I know we get a guaranted usmash out of air release).

guys, fullhop nair on BF/SV platform to usmash seems to combo.
Get them high in the air, empty sh to force an airdodge, fullhop nair to usmash.

 

[Wumbo105]

just go in beast mode.

brawl is more about what you do with your connected hit than what you do about connecting it.

Very interesting statement, but I can't say I completely agree. I think spacing, doing safe damage, and surviving are a bit more important in Brawl, and that would kinda fall under what you do before connecting it.
The majority of thinking and beating someone out happens before anyone ever lays a hand on each other, or in between strings.
Of course more technique and stuff goes into it once you actually do hit stuff, but that's another story, I believe.

 

[TKD]

Very interesting statement, but I can't say I completely agree. I think spacing, doing safe damage, and surviving are a bit more important in Brawl, and that would kinda fall under what you do before connecting it.
The majority of thinking and beating someone out happens before anyone ever lays a hand on each other, or in between strings.
Of course more technique and stuff goes into it once you actually do hit stuff, but that's another story, I believe.

that was in previous years of brawl. watch recent high level matches and check for how "safe" and "careful" they are. the game has become more aggressive because by acting you force the opponent to act, and if you have better character control you'll eventually dominate. the best example i can give is nairo's gameplay. it's not a golden rule but it generally applies. you should usually act within reason, as much as possible. and come up something to do in the dead instants of your gameplay.

about surviving OF COURSE it's important. but we were talking about ground game so you're switching topics.
spacing is important too THE ENTIRE MATCH. but spacing doesn't necessarily make you less active in the match.

brawl. is not. simple.
i must insist.

when i try to play "safe", i get consistent hits, but my opponent does too. i also become more reactive and the best players know how to get around reactiveness. the safest approach is constant action, even if at moments such action -is- baiting.

as for the actual topic, watch high level matches and see how methodical they are about their ground game or neutral situations, compared to their juggling and follow-ups in advantageous situations. also, check for how much damage and control good juggling and using momentum gives them when compared to just their ground game or what they do during neutral.

Thanks TKD
So with this info I can confirm we have a ground grab release chain grab on Ness and Lucas. They suffer 40 cool down frames after grab release, and our dash grab comes out on frame 10, so you have to buffer the dash grab but it works. Not sure how useful this is to us. Oh and if Upsmash comes out frame 8 we should be able to get a guaranteed dash Upsmash out of grounded grab release.

release usmash is guaranteed. chaingrab doesn't exist. fox's walk accelerates too slow (i guess m2k was wrong) or the timing for that is too strict (2 frame window at most), boost pivot grab can't be buffered, and dashgrab doesn't reach. i would guess boost dashgrab does reach, but it can't be buffered either.

dash usmash buffer input is:
tap forward, quarter circle up: tapping forward inputs a possible dash buffer. quarter circle up lets go of forward so now your dash is buffered, and prepares you to usmash.
jump button + A: you have to jump cancel for dash usmash to buffer, so you input the jump button (though i'm sure tap jump ON doesn't need this). you were already holding upwards, so just press A and let go ASAP

dash usmash buffer is useful mostly vs motherkids and to finish ddd's cg vs chars like lucario.

 

[fox67890]

I don't really know all that much about the buffering system, but would simply tapping foward+cstick up not work?(for buffering upsmash)


edit: I just tried the method I said, and I keep getting buffered dash attacks, so I'll just do what you said.

 

[Chef Fox]

Whats about the fact that they can get air released and control it?

Pummel to force a ground release.

chaingrab doesn't exist. fox's walk accelerates too slow (i guess m2k was wrong) or the timing for that is too strict (2 frame window at most), boost pivot grab can't be buffered, and dashgrab doesn't reach. i would guess boost dashgrab does reach, but it can't be buffered either.

Dash grab does reach. Try to buffer that, it works.

 

[TKD]

Dash grab does reach. Try to buffer that, it works.

Have you done it on a human opponent? If so, I'll believe you...and conveniently go Fox on ness.

Yo guys! I finally beat mike on saturday.
Being a fow fanboy pays off sometimes.

Sleeping well before a tourney is important, I found. I was out of stamina by winner finals, loser finals, and teams grand finals, and lost all of those sets :S SD'd last match vs havok near 0% and almost won with 2 stocks xD
I'm also gonna start working out A TON and get buff and energized to keep my gameplay up as long as possible.

AC and I won SoCal Pro t-shirts for having the top placings that were not in the socal power rankings.

Pretty much quite a good tourney. Tyrant's so much better than everyone else though...even his Marth is tougher than mike's. But his time's running out...I'll get him sooner or later.

Am I supposed to write something new about Fox?

Uhh...if you're nervous or need a lead, be MORE AGGRESSIVE instead of trying to wait things out. Go all out! If not, you'll never win a tourney. And, any char that chaingrabs you is annoying. Play your other char or people will laugh at you Except vs falco; he's fair and chaingrabs everyone equally anyway. I also recommend not staying Fox on FD because pika and ic are absolute beasts there (against Fox). You can probably only beat pocket pika/ic there. People that think you'll be free when their secondary's free. LOL

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Were the videos against Mike recorded?
What do you think you did differently this time that made you more successful against him?

 

[C.R.Z]

last tourney i just crashed at the venue when my pool was done...like a boss

 

[Chef Fox]

Have you done it on a human opponent? If so, I'll believe you...and conveniently go Fox on ness.

Yes I tested it extensively with my crewmates and they cannot escape until we reach the end of the stage (it's a moving chaingrab, ~12 grabs total on FD)

 

[-DR3W-]

This thread is quite enjoyable.

 

[fox67890]

Gratz to TKD on beating Mike

I also recommend not staying Fox on FD because pika and ic are absolute beasts there (against Fox). You can probably only beat pocket pika/ic there. People that think you'll be free when their secondary's free. LOL

It's kinda interesting that you pointed that out. If I went to a tourney, and my opponent CPed FD, I'd get really suspicious...

Since were already talking about Ness, I'll just ask a quick question:
What are some good ways to deal with his fair and zoning?

 

[TKD]

Since were already talking about Ness, I'll just ask a quick question:
What are some good ways to deal with his fair and zoning?

ignore fair or don't bother yourself too much with it. it probably deals like 5% if he's lucky. i don't have much exp vs ness but you can probably dash attack his landing cooldown on whiff.

also ness will usually put himself in the air to avoid grabs and because his air game is fantastic...but despite that, he's IN THE AIR, so you have kind of the upper hand. i think you can blaster him lots when he's in the air, too...because like us, he can only downb cancel on the ground.

the few friendlies i played vs ness since i got good at playing fox, i just took advantage of his positioning (being in the air) and punishing aerial startups and cooldowns, as well as assaulting his landings and grab release usmashed on each grab for like 18% grabs.

i still can't believe we can chaingrab with dashgrabs. i won't comment on that.

This thread is quite enjoyable.

thank you :D it's kind of a simulation of kirbykaze's thread. some guy talking about a character everyone thinks is bad (melee sheik)

Yes I tested it extensively with my crewmates and they cannot escape until we reach the end of the stage (it's a moving chaingrab, ~12 grabs total on FD)

that's ****, dude...full chaingrab to usmash, seriously? we're like some kind of marth then. i'd like to try it out but i don't own a wii and would rather not risk going fox vs ness's in tourney when i KNOW i can walking cg to 2nd hit of dsmash as mk even though fox ***** him if this is true.

last tourney i just crashed at the venue when my pool was done...like a boss

crashing is glorious.

Were the videos against Mike recorded?
What do you think you did differently this time that made you more successful against him?

step 1: pick mk
step 2: play like fow
yes it was recorded

 

[fox67890]

Hm, never thought about it doing only 5% damage if lucky. Iirc, I had a lot of trouble dash attacking his cooldown, but then again, I apparently thought wolf's dsmash was safe on shield and I was wrong, so I guess I'll have to check again.

I never thought about blastering him in the air though. I wonder if a retreating full hop quadruple laser would work?

Next time I'll have to focus on assaulting landings. I also have to master this buffering upsmash thing as well as possible CG. About that cg thing, I actually tried it *once* and it *seemed* to work. But then again, it was against a CPU in training mode, and I think I heard somewhere that ness could somehow DI (?) to affect CGs. Idk though, but it seems to be a definite possibility.

 

[Chef Fox]

that's ****, dude...full chaingrab to usmash, seriously? we're like some kind of marth then. i'd like to try it out but i don't own a wii and would rather not risk going fox vs ness's in tourney when i KNOW i can walking cg to 2nd hit of dsmash as mk even though fox ***** him if this is true.

Yeah it's pretty great, and we also have air grab release -> dash Upsmash, so even if they do escape the chaingrab they can still get Upsmashed.

 

[knuckles213]

Hey TKD I got a couple questions. I notice in one of your old vid vs havok; your were able to Drill(dair) long enough on his shield until it poked. I was wandering how were you able to curve fox's dair long enough to poke through. I've tried curving fox's dair, but either its too short or I fly to to high.

I wanna try to improve dair shield poking because I don't wanna get punished for trying to dair opponent

Next question vs snake; you know when snake either goes for the dacus or dash attack. I wonder if their was a way to punish that with and OoS attack or shield grab or Usmash smash before snake's dacus lands a hit.

And kind of the same questions on Marth's dancing blade; I know falco can punish marth's dancing blade with Usmash on either the 2nd or 3rd blade, I was wandering if it could work for us

 

[fox67890]

I can try to answer your question.

Although idk what you mean about the curving dair thing. But I'm going to take a completely wild guess and say that you this moment in time. I think it was just a normal shield stab. Dairing when you opponents shield is low (although it seemed somewhat strong in that video...) might lead to shield stabs; idk if "curving" the dair has anything to do with it. But to be completely honest, i don't really understand this question :x

Punishment thread!. Vs dash attack, you could probably just shield drop after he attacked you and then dashattack or upsmash. DACUS is a bit more trickier in terms of punishing. If you predict one, maybe dair would work, if you hit him in the beginning of his DACUS. if you actually shield it though...uh... depending on spacing, there might be enough room to simply run pass him(after he hit your shield) and maybe boost pivot grab him, which might avoid the mortar part. does dash attack give enough momentum to avoid the mortar? idk. technically, you could actually shine the mortar, but I doubt that doing that is practicable(unless he did a DACUS when you were already in the air)

We can upsmash marth OoS right after the third hit and I think the last(the last one, MIGHT require you to unblock dash upsmash, I have to check this). I don't know if a good marth would do it, but if they use the green version of DB3 or DB4, you might have to unblock dash upsmash those also.

In the better words of TKD:
" DB is countered by SHNair into him (somehow it has more range in front of Fox than DB has above Marth), and by block (usmash or grab on the 3rd hit is guaranteed, but you have to execute whichever preemptively if you think or know they won't go into 3rd). I think you can multi-SDI DB's 3rd hit away or something consistently, which would be swell for a ledge grab or a dash usmash punish if they finish it instead of the opponent landing the whole combo and gaining momentum."

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nobody actually thinks Melee Sheik is bad D:









If I keep saying it, I'll eventually believe it!

 

[TKD]

Nobody actually thinks Melee Sheik is bad D:

If I keep saying it, I'll eventually believe it!

OK. No one thinks Brawl Fox is bad.

In the better words of TKD:
" DB is countered by SHNair into him (somehow it has more range in front of Fox than DB has above Marth), and by block (usmash or grab on the 3rd hit is guaranteed, but you have to execute whichever preemptively if you think or know they won't go into 3rd). I think you can multi-SDI DB's 3rd hit away or something consistently, which would be swell for a ledge grab or a dash usmash punish if they finish it instead of the opponent landing the whole combo and gaining momentum."

wow i was smart, huh?

Hey TKD I got a couple questions.

I notice in one of your old vid vs havok; your were able to Drill(dair) long enough on his shield until it poked. I was wandering how were you able to curve fox's dair long enough to poke through. I've tried curving fox's dair, but either its too short or I fly to to high.

I wanna try to improve dair shield poking because I don't wanna get punished for trying to dair opponent

You don't "curve" dair. You drift while dairing. As for the shieldpoke, I aim for Snake's head as it somewhat sticks out. You can drift away from a possible shieldgrab and dair again for the actual shieldpoke.

Next question vs snake; you know when snake either goes for the dacus or dash attack. I wonder if their was a way to punish that with and OoS attack or shield grab or Usmash smash before snake's dacus lands a hit.

Nair counters Snake's dash attack. If you block it you can unblock and dash attack, dash usmash, dash boost pivot grab, dash shieldgrab, or maybe dash shine, hold shine...cancel into short hop after reflecting the mortar. Do what you think will reach. You can time an fthrow over the mortar (it blows up but neither damages nor hits you), but I never learned the timing for that since I haven't practiced. Maybe any throw works this way.

And kind of the same questions on Marth's dancing blade; I know falco can punish marth's dancing blade with Usmash on either the 2nd or 3rd blade, I was wandering if it could work for us

Fox's usmash comes out on frame 8. Falco's usmash comes out on frame 8. I hope that answers your question.

Onto other stuff.
Mike vs me http://youtu.be/zhc8zCPx6sc
Eric vs me http://youtu.be/dBPaj8dy0nc

I know, I know. I'll murder him next time.
What I noticed we have to do vs MK and I didn't, is to never, EVER increase the gap between us if I'm already near him. Have to apply lots of pressure. Also, way more landing into grabs needed. The moment has to come where he doesn't know if I'm gonna land with an aerial or land and grab. Remember to shine before landing, guys. I remember that's pretty important. And DI his bthrow away+up (if it's dthrow just change it later), as well as his fair and dash attack...although only away may work for those.

Some doubles:
http://youtu.be/hysFgnMY7to

 

[C.R.Z]

This new "Beast mode" strategy doesnt seem to be working for you man, your not as confident with your spacing as you use to be and your not punishing as much. instead your getting punished alot of the time

I dont know what made you change but the way you taught me seems to be still working fine. Im pretty much confident against any player(well i was before i quit playing) and dont think i have any problems against any match-up (except maybe olimar, but thats a dumb character). Maybe people learnt how to deal with fox over there but i haven't seen anything to support that.

 

[crifer]

Tyrant improved quite a bit, it seems to me.
I think you should watch out for your airdodge patterns, because tyrant seems to punish them quite a lot ´, because you airdodge into him...

 

[fox67890]

I don't have the chance to watch the videos atm.
*sad faic*

You can time an fthrow over the mortar (it blows up but neither damages nor hits you), but I never learned the timing for that since I haven't practiced. Maybe any throw works this way.

hold shine...cancel into short hop after reflecting the mortar.

I'm a bit confused about the fthrow thing. Do you mean it gives invincibility frames? That would be pretty cool if it did.

About shine hopping after reflecting the mortar, I'm pretty sure just like olimar's pikmin, that's one of the few projectiles that was also can't hop out of. I think the same applies to snake's side+B (I think it was called a nikita missile or something). I might have to recheck this

 

[TKD]

thanks, maybe you guys are on to something.

i'm starting to remember that my previous style could be described as subtle pressure instead of full aggro. i played badly though, you can't blame the style so much. still, full aggro ***** snake. but with no subtlety comes retardedness in brawl, maybe. and assuming i can go full aggro while dead tired or not warmed up may actually be killing me.

 

[C.R.Z]

yeah i agree, you have to pick your moments, its a spacing/opportunity thing. You can make opportunities present itself by doing certain things but you cant force it. I dont blame you for playing differently, fox is hard and when you havent played for a month or two it really shows.

 

[Sukai]

Fox isn't hard.

 

[Jet300]

Fox isn't hard.

Fox is a hard character, Sukai. Pikachu and Ics are his worst MU's (But I think Ics are worse than pika IMO). SHTL is hard when your trying to learn how to do it. But after awhile, its easy. He has 3rd fast falling speed in brawl, which makes him easy to chain grab and lock.

 

[C.R.Z]

fox is hella hard lol

other characters are pretty much a walk in the park

 

[Sukai]

If you haven't played brawl a month or two.

Or a few years apparently.
What changed about him so much? Sure you gotta grind a technique or two, but that's it. He's pretty easy.

Unless you're confusing "hard to play" to "hard to win with".

 

[TKD]

fox isn't easy at all.
there are subtleties GALORE with high-level fox.

fox has few options, so he has to change timing, spacing, rhythms, etc.. that's much more complex than having lots of options and selecting the appropriate ones as with chars with lots of options like sheik and mk. not saying sheik and mk are easy to play as, just that fox is difficult (i know sheik is not a good char but i refer to to gameplay difficulty here).

fox and marth are two of the most complex chars to play well afaik.

every char is hard to win with, sukai. and fox is not without his worth or otherwise i'd go back to all mk.

 

[Jet300]

What changed about him so much?

All of his combos can be SDI, he can't get go offensive against everybody, and he gets predictible. In brawl, Fox has to camp his to force the foe to approach. Things had changed for Fox.