the TKD thread

[knuckles213]

I can try to answer your question.

Although idk what you mean about the curving dair thing. But I'm going to take a completely wild guess and say that you this moment in time. I think it was just a normal shield stab. Dairing when you opponents shield is low (although it seemed somewhat strong in that video...) might lead to shield stabs; idk if "curving" the dair has anything to do with it. But to be completely honest, i don't really understand this question :x

That pretty much it, I didn't know it was called shield stabing (but from the looks at it, it looks curved a bit when he executed it). My question was how do you shield stab? (mainly is there was a way to to control shield stabbing (to pull it off every time without fail with fox's dair) without being punished. casue if so I might be able to implement for difficult opponents/characters)

Punishment thread!. Vs dash attack, you could probably just shield drop after he attacked you and then dashattack or upsmash. DACUS is a bit more trickier in terms of punishing. If you predict one, maybe dair would work, if you hit him in the beginning of his DACUS. if you actually shield it though...uh... depending on spacing, there might be enough room to simply run pass him(after he hit your shield) and maybe boost pivot grab him, which might avoid the mortar part. does dash attack give enough momentum to avoid the mortar? idk. technically, you could actually shine the mortar, but I doubt that doing that is practicable(unless he did a DACUS when you were already in the air)

your probably, I'll have to test this out

We can upsmash marth OoS right after the third hit and I think the last(the last one, MIGHT require you to unblock dash upsmash, I have to check this). I don't know if a good marth would do it, but if they use the green version of DB3 or DB4, you might have to unblock dash upsmash those also.

green version? you mean the multi stab when marth ducks on the ground to stab; that one I'm not sure we can punish.

In the better words of TKD:
" DB is countered by SHNair into him (somehow it has more range in front of Fox than DB has above Marth), and by block (usmash or grab on the 3rd hit is guaranteed, but you have to execute whichever preemptively if you think or know they won't go into 3rd). I think you can multi-SDI DB's 3rd hit away or something consistently, which would be swell for a ledge grab or a dash usmash punish if they finish it instead of the opponent landing the whole combo and gaining momentum."

Nairing is the key huh, cool

You don't "curve" dair. You drift while dairing. As for the shieldpoke, I aim for Snake's head as it somewhat sticks out. You can drift away from a possible shieldgrab and dair again for the actual shieldpoke.

thanks

Nair counters Snake's dash attack. If you block it you can unblock and dash attack, dash usmash, dash boost pivot grab, dash shieldgrab, or maybe dash shine, hold shine...cancel into short hop after reflecting the mortar. Do what you think will reach. You can time an fthrow over the mortar (it blows up but neither damages nor hits you), but I never learned the timing for that since I haven't practiced. Maybe any throw works this way.

cool, thanks

Onto other stuff.
Mike vs me http://youtu.be/zhc8zCPx6sc
Eric vs me http://youtu.be/dBPaj8dy0nc

I know, I know. I'll murder him next time.
What I noticed we have to do vs MK and I didn't, is to never, EVER increase the gap between us if I'm already near him. Have to apply lots of pressure. Also, way more landing into grabs needed. The moment has to come where he doesn't know if I'm gonna land with an aerial or land and grab. Remember to shine before landing, guys. I remember that's pretty important. And DI his bthrow away+up (if it's dthrow just change it later), as well as his fair and dash attack...although only away may work for those.

thanks, maybe you guys are on to something.

i'm starting to remember that my previous style could be described as subtle pressure instead of full aggro. i played badly though, you can't blame the style so much. still, full aggro ***** snake. but with no subtlety comes retardedness in brawl, maybe. and assuming i can go full aggro while dead tired or not warmed up may actually be killing me.

man I love your old style, I'm trying to replicate it (its hard tho, but I'll eventually get it real soon). I only have problems with lagless SHTL (being able to execute another function right after SHTL; I know other foxes don't use default controls, but I cant seem to use the X button as special very well), Spacing, and Nairing (range/power/speed).

 

[Sukai]

...so just hard to win with.

 

[TKD]

...so just hard to win with.

maybe for you.

i'd bet big bucks that you're not from west coast so you don't know much about marth and fox. no offense.

anyhow, if any of you think you could do better as another char, you should pick that other char. common sense. your chars represent you, not the other way around.

Now for more vids. This is from the last tourney in TJ.
San Diego dropped by for a visit. TJ and San Diego are pretty close, literally and figuratively.
WF http://youtu.be/7JB_hiEi5Ss
GF http://youtu.be/mlIKuRbA150

P.S.: cg on ness confirmed. you have to buffer the dashgrab, not just the dash. if you only buffer the dash and press "grab" late, it'll look the same, but it'll be slower. dashgrab is exactly 11 frames, which is the exact advantage on release vs ness, so the dashgrab needs to be buffered. this means probably only advanced players will pull this off 100% in a match.

 

[knuckles213]

maybe for you.

i'd bet big bucks that you're not from west coast so you don't know anything about marth and fox. no offense.

anyhow, if any of you think you could do better as another char, you should pick that other char. common sense. your chars represent you, not the other way around.

Now for more vids. This is from the last tourney in TJ.
San Diego dropped by for a visit. TJ and San Diego are pretty close, literally and figuratively.
WF http://youtu.be/7JB_hiEi5Ss
GF http://youtu.be/mlIKuRbA150

What I learn from these vids is be agressive, punish, and keep snake in the air. I wish tx had snake players.

I also notice you don't laser as much anymore or jump alot; why the change in stye Tee?

 

[TKD]

What I learn from these vids is be agressive, punish, and keep snake in the air. I wish tx had snake players.

I also notice you don't laser as much anymore or jump alot; why the change in stye Tee?

I only need 1 hit to deal like half a stock's worth of damage. Trying to be "safe" and continuously sacrificing good positioning isn't worth it. I still forget this...way too often. Gotta get used to just not caring and tearing opponents apart.
It's not about "keeping snake in the air" so much as it is about taking advantage if he's already there imo. How's he gonna be there? You only need 1 hit. My favorites are dash shieldgrab, dash attack, and sh dair...yes, our most ******** moves. Somehow it's wise to use those vs Snake.

 

[knuckles213]

I only need 1 hit to deal like half a stock's worth of damage. Trying to be "safe" and continuously sacrificing good positioning isn't worth it. I still forget this...way too often. Gotta get used to just not caring and tearing opponents apart.
It's not about "keeping snake in the air" so much as it is about taking advantage if he's already there imo. How's he gonna be there? You only need 1 hit. My favorites are dash shieldgrab, dash attack, and sh dair...yes, our most ******** moves. Somehow it's wise to use those vs Snake.

an you cant forget our two lethal frame traps on snake: Utilt next ledge to bair and Utilt to Dair (snake get caught in either of them hes stuck and until you kill or mess up)

also, I liked it better when you charge in (not caring) even though you have the lead; plus you think you could get some vids you vs peach cause that MU I'm force to camp because everything she does out poritizes our move set if not trade hits

 

[Sukai]

maybe for you.

So...he's easy to win with?

i'd bet big bucks that you're not from west coast so you don't know much about marth and fox. no offense.

Midwest, and I haven't touched Brawl in 3 years. And back then East Coast was real big in Brawl, all the West Coast hipsters stuck to Melee.

When I asked what changed so much about him, the answers I received was less of Fox's highly technical techniques and more of opponent's answers to Fox's tools, which means that he's hard to win with, not hard to play. Hard to play involves a character that's very technical and has a large execution barrier, which Fox does not have. He has some tricks that need an hour in training mode, but the wall isn't that steep.

imo

 

[TKD]

yeah LOL...i was one of those dudes playing melee at their own setup in brawl tourneys.

i think fox is hard to play because i can get rusty with him very, very quickly. i think he's easy to win with because for as long as i've played him he seems to have B tier quality (marth, falco, wario; i think that's B tier. can't remember exactly).
it's not all technical difficulty when you need a ton of intuition, awareness of timings, and just not caring enough to try playing safe (fox sucks if you try to play safe). this is new, and very hard for most brawl players because we've been "playing safe" since '08.

i was a fox player in melee too. i thought brawl fox as obsolete at first, so i went straight to metaknight (well, after quitting ice climbers). until i saw a japanese match-up chart which indicated fox was much better than i thought. so i went and started trying to discover how to play fox. now i realize he's pretty good (for a brawl char ).

 

[C.R.Z]

yeah LOL...i was one of those dudes playing melee at their own setup in brawl tourneys.

i think fox is hard to play because i can get rusty with him very, very quickly.
I Agree
i think he's easy to win with because for as long as i've played him he seems to have B tier quality (marth, falco, wario; i think that's B tier. can't remember exactly).

it's not all technical difficulty when you need a ton of intuition, awareness of timings
I Agree

, and just not caring enough to try playing safe (fox sucks if you try to play safe).
Completely Disagree

this is new, and very hard for most brawl players because we've been "playing safe" since '08.Disagree

i was a fox player in melee too. i thought brawl fox as obsolete at first, so i went straight to metaknight (well, after quitting ice climbers). until i saw a japanese match-up chart which indicated fox was much better than i thought. so i went and started trying to discover how to play fox. now i realize he's pretty good (for a brawl char ).

Everyone sucked in 08 because they didnt understand fox as a character well enough. People were so concerned with dair and uptilt and not enough with spacing and adapting. People would rush in blindly and get their ***** handed to them on a plater, not to mention know one could punish very well. Oh and many were moaning saying for had no approach, japan were the only ones who understood fox back in the day.

There is nothing wrong with playing safe as long as you take advantage of openings. Fox is really good at forcing openings with lazers which means he can commit relatively safely. Camping allows you to observe your opponent as well, learn their tendencies aswell as the opponent characters options(although you could just know the match up really well). I can talk from previous experience that going in without a care in the world will just get you killed in this game. You need to take both sides and apply them in different situations in order to do well consistently. Im from europe, we know aggression better than anyone in this game haha.

but youll probably discover this soon if you havent already. If you follow on with this view then fox's metagame is just going to become full circle, which would be very very bad.

 

[TKD]

You have to play your risk vs reward, of course. You can't approach Falco before you have 28%, for example. There it's all baiting (for laggy stuff of his, or blocking on a platform in case he HS nair from below to shieldgrab it etc) and projectile game.

There's also situations like MK at the ledge. You can rarely attack that (the odds for that choice are astronomically out of your favor), so you don't.

You can't go against your odds. That's why also while just landing with aerial/airdodge would be the aggro/impatient choice, the odds are COMPLETELY AGAINST YOU that way and you should shine first.

Some things just make you out to lose. Those you shouldn't do, and it involves good defensive game, good recoveries and avoiding chaingrabs.

I considered going by your odds to be an obvious thing. When risk vs reward is balanced though, lately I've always found going for the counter options and surprises with constant action to do better than waiting things out. You only need 1 hit to follow up into a ton of damage.

The principles I recommend are these:
+ Always be doing something even if it's baiting. Constant action, no dead time.
+ Always go in favor of your odds (for example, your opponent in the air are extremely favorable odds: will you go follow up, or run away from him and shoot lasers?)

I understand it may be about the best of both worlds because you have to camp Ganondorf, HARD. We **** him but we can't really approach him. We have to wait at a range where we have time to react to his downb with our blocking. Well, that's what I think. One of the best Ganondorf players in the world lives in my region.

A counter example would be NAKAT vs Will though, where you've seen NAKAT camp all day, giving the opponent free positioning, and running away after landing a hit to shoot more lasers, instead of dealing major damage to a character that's very easy to combo for as long as possible. It CAN work, but it doesn't compare to optimum game play. Still, only change the fact that he should follow up every time he's in advantage, and maybe the style works.

This is like, DON'T GO AGGRO IF THE ODDS AREN'T IN YOUR FAVOR (you've just been hit, your opponent has momentum, you're on defense). You may hit your opponent in these situations, but it's unlikely.
GO AGGRO IF THE ODDS ARE IN YOUR FAVOR (you've just hit the opponent, you have the momentum, you're on offense). Your opponent may hit you in these situations, but it's unlikely and not very risky/damaging.

You also need to recognize counters. For example, Snake landing ftilt1 on you is actually neutral if he doesn't finish it. You can spam shieldgrab and grab him before he grabs you if he tries to do that, since his grab is slower. Jabs will work too, but I don't like panic jabbing as Fox because of his rapids. This is a situation where defense is bad, and offense is bad, but there's a good counter (although backroll will put you in safety often, and spotdodge MAY work).

Knowing your odds is essential.

 

[C.R.Z]

You have to play your risk vs reward, of course. You can't approach Falco before you have 28%, for example. There it's all baiting (for laggy stuff of his, or blocking on a platform in case he HS nair from below to shieldgrab it etc) and projectile game.

There's also situations like MK at the ledge. You can rarely attack that (the odds for that choice are astronomically out of your favor), so you don't.

You can't go against your odds. That's why also while just landing with aerial/airdodge would be the aggro/impatient choice, the odds are COMPLETELY AGAINST YOU that way and you should shine first.

Some things just make you out to lose. Those you shouldn't do, and it involves good defensive game, good recoveries and avoiding chaingrabs.

I considered going by your odds to be an obvious thing. When risk vs reward is balanced though, lately I've always found going for the counter options and surprises with constant action to do better than waiting things out. You only need 1 hit to follow up into a ton of damage.

The principles I recommend are these:
+ Always be doing something even if it's baiting. Constant action, no dead time.
+ Always go in favor of your odds (for example, your opponent in the air are extremely favorable odds: will you go follow up, or run away from him and shoot lasers?)

I understand it may be about the best of both worlds because you have to camp Ganondorf, HARD. We **** him but we can't really approach him. We have to wait at a range where we have time to react to his downb with our blocking. Well, that's what I think. One of the best Ganondorf players in the world lives in my region.

A counter example would be NAKAT vs Will though, where you've seen NAKAT camp all day, giving the opponent free positioning, and running away after landing a hit to shoot more lasers, instead of dealing major damage to a character that's very easy to combo for as long as possible. It CAN work, but it doesn't compare to optimum game play. Still, only change the fact that he should follow up every time he's in advantage, and maybe the style works.

This is like, DON'T GO AGGRO IF THE ODDS AREN'T IN YOUR FAVOR (you've just been hit, your opponent has momentum, you're on defense). You may hit your opponent in these situations, but it's unlikely.
GO AGGRO IF THE ODDS ARE IN YOUR FAVOR (you've just hit the opponent, you have the momentum, you're on offense). Your opponent may hit you in these situations, but it's unlikely and not very risky/damaging.

You also need to recognize counters. For example, Snake landing ftilt1 on you is actually neutral if he doesn't finish it. You can spam shieldgrab and grab him before he grabs you if he tries to do that, since his grab is slower. Jabs will work too, but I don't like panic jabbing as Fox because of his rapids. This is a situation where defense is bad, and offense is bad, but there's a good counter (although backroll will put you in safety often, and spotdodge MAY work).

Knowing your odds is essential.

Im glad you wrote this, will make sure other players still learning dont get the wrong idea and start getting reckless. I approve

 

[TKD]

thank you dude. post your matches here whenever you can

 

[C.R.Z]

thank you dude. post your matches here whenever you can

No problem man I definitely will, the reason i came back to this game is because i wanted to make some vids to show that fox is a good character and its not just you and Yui who can play fox. Im quite disappointed with the overall quality of gameplay from the fox community and want them to get better. Im meeting KillerJawz today so ill try and get lots of matches.

 

[Sukai]

lol Zoning with lasers to force an opening and conditioning the opponent was Fox's thing from jump, I don't remember people saying they had no approach.

Also back when I played the Japanese were considered inferior. And I felt like I played similar.

 

[C.R.Z]

lol Zoning with lasers to force an opening and conditioning the opponent was Fox's thing from jump, I don't remember people saying they had no approach.

Also back when I played the Japanese were considered inferior. And I felt like I played similar.

i specifically remember fox being mid tier because he had no approach method. When people learned to camp they were still doing it wrong as they weren't punishing correctly. No characters metagame has really completely changed since day one, its just improved in many areas.

japanese fox wasnt respected until yui had that match with Disk

 

[TKD]

My interest in Fox awakened after reading a Japanese match-up chart in like '08 or '09 that indicated Fox was a good character. This was very surprising for me and I played Fox in melee so just had to find out WHY he was considered good as there were no examples of Fox gameplay.

I had to go through all that and try to discover and teach myself Fox, and people think Fox is bad? He's just extremely obscure, that's all.

He won't be obscure forever if I keep playing and going to tournaments, though. I'll be the next ESAM
Like, who knew anything about competitive Pikachu before ESAM?

Not at all like MK, my other character.

 

[Kuraudo]

People like TKD are the reason why I picked up Fox in Brawl to begin with.

Such an awesome secondary.

 

[TKD]

DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP!

A friend of mine just told me what I used to do vs MK's forward roll.

It's just short hop on reaction! You can short hop away. Or into him + aerial, or near him + airdodge then utilt, delayed utilt, or buffer turn-around grab

wth so simple...

We should practice to react very well to it without expecting it (if you expect something you'll be blind to other options so you should only expect on reads), but when we react late we can just roll away from him. It shouldn't happen TOO often so the opponent isn't very likely to roll and then read your roll.

Good good good. I was thinking of going Pika on MK because I'm pretty sure the match-up is even but Fox probably is too and the roll is what was ****** me anyway.

 

[knuckles213]

DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP!

A friend of mine just told me what I used to do vs MK's forward roll.

It's just short hop on reaction! You can short hop away. Or into him + aerial, or near him + airdodge then utilt, delayed utilt, or buffer turn-around grab

wth so simple...

We should practice to react very well to it without expecting it (if you expect something you'll be blind to other options so you should only expect on reads), but when we react late we can just roll away from him. It shouldn't happen TOO often so the opponent isn't very likely to roll and then read your roll.

Good good good. I was thinking of going Pika on MK because I'm pretty sure the match-up is even but Fox probably is too and the roll is what was ****** me anyway.

so pretty much start learning to react to specific moves , sounds to me like a cpu thing, why not Dsmah a forward roll?

go pika on mk O.o? why would you use our most hated enemy in the game on mk, I would rather watch your fox destroy mk with laser, fast approaches, and combos to usmash or at least your fox vs pika.

 

[TKD]

You could even hard read the roll and turn around to usmash if he does it. Dsmash works if you have the reaction but utilt is a bit easier if he ends up in range (he won't always be). Solutions that involve waiting without blocking could be because you're waiting for something you can punish with dash attack. Then they roll instead and you punish that.

But if you want to block, ever, you need an out of shield solution.

BTW what's up with fox being 16th best char in the BBR tier list, and pika being 22nd in the japanese one?
crazy stuff brah

 

[knuckles213]

You could even hard read the roll and turn around to usmash if he does it. Dsmash works if you have the reaction but utilt is a bit easier if he ends up in range (he won't always be). Solutions that involve waiting without blocking could be because you're waiting for something you can punish with dash attack. Then they roll instead and you punish that.

But if you want to block, ever, you need an out of shield solution.

BTW what's up with fox being 16th best char in the BBR tier list, and pika being 22nd in the japanese one?
crazy stuff brah

well fox will never move up if we don't have people reppin him in tournament (no offense to you TKD, but you can't do it all by yourself) actually placing well. people seem to think to you and yui are the only good fox players that using that character; even tho there are other players as well (I dont think they care anymore as much).

Hey Tee, do you know of any cool ways to incorporate Up b and DJing into our mix ups?

 

[fox67890]

2 questions. The first one is kinda silly...

1) Snake does the second hit of filt on the back of my shield. What's the input to buffer (if needed) the turn around dash upsmash? (sorry, I don't really understand the buffering system to well...)

2) What are your thoughts on ledge hopped lasers (or whatever the technique is called to run off the ledge and jump back on firing lasers) as fox? Do they give up too much space, or are they useful?

 

[knuckles213]

2) What are your thoughts on ledge hopped lasers (or whatever the technique is called to run off the ledge and jump back on firing lasers) as fox? Do they give up too much space, or are they useful?

That's DJ'ing back to the stage, it very use against characters (kirby, snake, pika, etc) that are able to duck underneath our lasers without getting touched; very usefull, you have to be quick and its unsafe a hell if you don't do it properly. you wanna make it lagless where you can input another move right after it or not grab the ledge

 

[TKD]

well fox will never move up if we don't have people reppin him in tournament (no offense to you TKD, but you can't do it all by yourself) actually placing well. people seem to think to you and yui are the only good fox players that using that character; even tho there are other players as well (I dont think they care anymore as much).

Hey Tee, do you know of any cool ways to incorporate Up b and DJing into our mix ups?

UpB can work when recovering (remember to air-jump fair first for like, every recovery though. fox can lose his stock if you don't do this). A good one is angling it forward+down angled (the smallest downwards angle possible so the opponent thinks you'll go to the stage and instead you just reach the ledge).

Air-jumping is good when landing will be unfavorable. This is when you doubt of all your landing options: usually a choice between empty landing, air-dodge, landing nair (all with appropriate drifting of course), illusion cancel; or when any landing is too risky (usually vs Pika/IC). Air-jumping to escape usually works very well as a rising fair.

Air-jumping can also work when you hop to bait an opponent's move (when they're high above you), to punish it with an air-jump aerial. A mix-up here would be to use the air-jump aerial preemptively if you think your opponent won't perform an action (this is either because they caught on to your baiting, or because it's their default response to the situation).

A single player CAN move his character up the tier list (ESAM). I haven't really been representing Fox, that's the issue. No tournament attendance. I'm going to every socal tourney I can from now on, though.

2 questions. The first one is kinda silly...

There are no silly questions. Trying to answer any question is a good reminder for me, as I don't play every day (I'm sure some people do lol).

1) Snake does the second hit of filt on the back of my shield. What's the input to buffer (if needed) the turn around dash upsmash? (sorry, I don't really understand the buffering system to well...)

I -NEVER- buffer this, not even when facing the opponent (although, anyone who develops the ability to buffer unblock dash usmash can punish mk's buffer shfair from block with it).

First of all, unblocking takes 7 frames, so the buffer window is 7 instead of the usual 10. Buffering anything from this is quite the technical feat. Second, buffering a dash toward your back is one of the most difficult buffers in the game (as the only method I know for this buffer is tapping backwards and returning to neutral without letting the control stick spring back). Third, you may buffer a roll by accident (unless letting go of block means you won't roll shield-stun...don't know). Lastly, the buffer for dash usmash into backside doesn't exist (except in TAS, like the buffered pivot grab), so you'd only buffer the dash and input the usmash manually.

The simplest way I know to do what you want to do is to just let go of block and input the dash usmash ASAP when you can move, no buffer involved...just timing. The usmash has to be a bit delayed because if you usmash immediately, you won't dash (dashing backwards has been a pain since melee). Dashing backwards is just slower than dashing forward, unless you buffer it (which, at least at the moment, I don't recommend from block).

Unless Snake is in KO percentage, you could try the easier dash attack (it's 4 frames quicker and also gives momentum).

2) What are your thoughts on ledge hopped lasers (or whatever the technique is called to run off the ledge and jump back on firing lasers) as fox? Do they give up too much space, or are they useful?

I'm sure you can bother kirby and pikachu a bit with this, and you'll run away from them anyway (vs kirby until 20%, vs pika until 53%) so you might as well do it when you're out of their range for dash approaches.

That's DJ'ing back to the stage, it very use against characters (kirby, snake, pika, etc) that are able to duck underneath our lasers without getting touched; very usefull, you have to be quick and its unsafe a hell if you don't do it properly. you wanna make it lagless where you can input another move right after it or not grab the ledge

You might as well approach Snake when he crawls since a few *possible* measly percentage points won't affect your matches against him much. The only time I do something like this vs Snake is in Yoshi's, where your standing blasters can hit crouching opponents from the ends of the stage

The lagless thing is correct. If you land at a certain point of the move, Fox is immobile until a painfully long putting-gun-back-in-holster animation finishes. If you shoot both lasers as close to the ground as possible, you'll always avoid this animation, though. If you want to see it for sure, buffer full hop rapid blasters and watch Fox be dumb when landing. this is why I delay my blasters a bit when full hopping them instead of buffering them.

 

[fox67890]

Dang...
I saw your video vs havok the other day, and when he did the ftilt2 on the back of your shield, you punished it with unblock dash upsmash successfully. I didn't think it be so hard :x. Eh, I guess I'll just have to practice timing it, as buffering it sounds tricky.

Ledge hopped lasers are tricky for me to do. I'm going to have to master that also...


Somewhat random question, but do you ever advise using upthrow? Normally I don't use it, but whenever I do, I actually seem to get a lot out of it.

 

[TKD]

The hard thing is the buffer. Doing it manually is the way to go.

Uthrow gives positional advantage but can sometimes do no damage (depends on DI and whether they air-dodge immediately). I use it to avoid hitting Snake's grenades.

Uthrow sounds great if dthrow won't have follow-ups, and no other throw will put the opponent offstage. I'll start checking for situations in which dthrow just can't be followed up.

It's a very good idea. I like it because it's Bam! Automatic momentum.

 

[Bing]

Just going to give my 2 cents and correct me if Im wrong. I like using both up and down throw but for different reasons.

I love up-throw on stages like battlefield because of the stage size and platform locations. I find Fox is great when under most characters because of his u-air. Therefore even if you up-throw and cant directly follow up, they're still caught on a platform above you, at which point you can mind-game your way into a uair.

I also love d-throw for chasing to uair. Or a few times I've done d-throw to fair and as soon as the fair ended and lag was over, I uair'd for the ko. was mighty sexy, I've only done this against a DK and a Zelda though lol.

Also I've been trying to get better with the whole dair to u-tilt combo, I can do it consistently well, but after a while it doesnt work anymore so I've been trying to u-tilt to grab a bit, after the grab would it be best to d-throw chase uair/fair? Or are there better options?

 

[TKD]

dthrow to aerial doesn't really exist haha. unless they DI into you.
also most chars are good under most chars. it has always been this way in smash.

fox is good below opponents not just because of tipper uair but because he can catch most landings with his dash attack (sometimes usmash), and his walk isn't so shabby so walking up to a landing spot and preparing to follow up is viable a ton of the time. it's not just uair...but learning when each aerial can connect is probably quite a bit of the learning curve.

dair to utilt doesn't work at too low a %. learn to buffer the grab so they don't spotdodge or something. if you're vs marth and dair him at very low %, you might even want to buffer a roll while connecting dair.

 

[fox67890]

@Bing: That's an interesting point you make about using upthrow with the top BF platform. I've actually had some success doing that also. Sometimes when you upthrow someone at low percents, they'll land on the top platform, but be grounded(as in not standing, but laying down on the platform).The fair> uair kill sounds kinda...strange. If uair was able to kill at "x" percent, wouldn't the fair set them high enough to be out of range for the uair chase? Idk though, just trying to picture that in my mind. When you say Drill>utilt doesn't combo after awhile, what do you mean? The higher the percentage, the greater it has a chance to land (assuming you buffer it). Um...utilt has a greater chance at connecting and establishing a utilt "lock" if you buffer the turn around (so you'll do a reverse utilt), so that might help.

Drill>Back Up-tilt_____14%-300%
Drill>Front Up-tilt_____36%-300%

These percents are taken from Uzi's thread. The exact percent I think is character specific though, so it's just a range.

oh, if they DI the downthrow(or don't DI) such that you can follow up with something like SH fair, I like to SH uair (it autocancels). You could usually immediately follow up with another uair right away.

@TKD: moar questions~

1) In what situations do you advise to use jab? And when it actually is used, what mix ups are your favorite? Like do you think it's better to go for jab1> something or JJC> something? And what are some good options for that "something"? (this is kinda wordy...)

2) About punishing hop approaches from BF platforms, in what mindset should we do that? I know that we can grab some things like pika's/ICs SH uair, but in what context should we do it in?

In other words, do you predict the uair and shieldgrab it, or is there enough time to shieldgrab with normal reflexes due to shield stun? And if the opponent doesn't actually SH uair, what are good options to do OoS from above on the platform?

Late edit: Man i'm on a role with questions :|.

These mainly have to do with buffering:

3) I have to recheck, but if you were to attempt to buffer a downsmash with the cstick, I think you dtilt(which is kinda bad as fox). Is there a buffer input to get around this?

4) Do you feel it's necessary to learn to buffer platform drops?

 

[Bing]

@Bing: That's an interesting point you make about using upthrow with the top BF platform. I've actually had some success doing that also. Sometimes when you upthrow someone at low percents, they'll land on the top platform, but be grounded(as in not standing, but laying down on the platform).The fair> uair kill sounds kinda...strange. If uair was able to kill at "x" percent, wouldn't the fair set them high enough to be out of range for the uair chase? Idk though, just trying to picture that in my mind. When you say Drill>utilt doesn't combo after awhile, what do you mean? The higher the percentage, the greater it has a chance to land (assuming you buffer it). Um...utilt has a greater chance at connecting and establishing a utilt "lock" if you buffer the turn around (so you'll do a reverse utilt), so that might help.

Drill>Back Up-tilt_____14%-300%
Drill>Front Up-tilt_____36%-300%

These percents are taken from Uzi's thread. The exact percent I think is character specific though, so it's just a range.

oh, if they DI the downthrow(or don't DI) such that you can follow up with something like SH fair, I like to SH uair (it autocancels). You could usually immediately follow up with another uair right away.

@TKD: moar questions~

1) In what situations do you advise to use jab? And when it actually is used, what mix ups are your favorite? Like do you think it's better to go for jab1> something or JJC> something? And what are some good options for that "something"? (this is kinda wordy...)

2) About punishing hop approaches from BF platforms, in what mindset should we do that? I know that we can grab some things like pika's/ICs SH uair, but in what context should we do it in?

In other words, do you predict the uair and shieldgrab it, or is there enough time to shieldgrab with normal reflexes due to shield stun? And if the opponent doesn't actually SH uair, what are good options to do OoS from above on the platform?

umm.. I dont know if I understand the last question which is the only thing I feel I could potentially help with, now the only thing I can think of is either shine OoS or maybe dair. You can probably ignore that.

In regards to the fair-uair thing. He was Zelda and DI's poorly LOL

 

[Rizk18]

1) In what situations do you advise to use jab? And when it actually is used, what mix ups are your favorite? Like do you think it's better to go for jab1> something or JJC> something? And what are some good options for that "something"? (this is kinda wordy...)

Late edit: Man i'm on a role with questions :|.

These mainly have to do with buffering:

3) I have to recheck, but if you were to attempt to buffer a downsmash with the cstick, I think you dtilt(which is kinda bad as fox). Is there a buffer input to get around this?

1. Jab is bad. Only time I use it is when people with bad recoveries are off stages, I jab them>Edgehog/Guard.

3. Just mash the C-stick down after using Dair. When you mash it, you're basically buffering it because of how many times you input it. So don't worry about buffering that.
Edit: Also, if you hit the C-stick down, you don't Dtilt. Are you sure you aren't holding the control stick down as well?

 

[fox67890]

I keep getting mixed results with buffering dsmash...weird.

Like, I can easily do it from a dair. But whenever I try the Hard nair>Dsmash combo, I occasionally get a Dtilt.

Hm...now that you mention it, I probably was holding down on the control stick.

I'll have to keep this in mind next time.

 

[Rizk18]

Double post sorry.
But TKD I have a couple questions for you.

1. Since I use the Wii controller(sideways), it's really hard for me to get the Up smash and Down smash out of Dair, do you know when I should buffer them?

2. I think I discovered something though. When you use Dair, you could input the attacks of Up smash and Down smash at the same time the smoke breaks out of the floor when the Dair hits the ground. Do you think this is the right timing to buffer?

 

[crifer]

I keep getting mixed results with buffering dsmash...weird.

Like, I can easily do it from a dair. But whenever I try the Hard nair>Dsmash combo, I occasionally get a Dtilt.

Hm...now that you mention it, I probably was holding down on the control stick.

I'll have to keep this in mind next time.

If your still in lag of any move and input a cstick down in the buffer window of 10 frames you will automatically do a dtilt. If you don´t get a dtilt but a dsmash out of it you are not buffering correctly.
This is how mk´s are doing their fair to frame perfect dtilt.

 

[Bing]

Playing Fox is becoming more difficult now that my c-stick is becoming sort of shotty...

 

[TKD]

@Bing: That's an interesting point you make about using upthrow with the top BF platform.

It is. It works. People don't have time to react if you throw immediately and they'll frequently just stumble onto the top platform.

Drill>Back Up-tilt_____14%-300%
Drill>Front Up-tilt_____36%-300%

Try not to "front" uptilt from dair until huge %'s. It works waaay late. That percentage is for Mario. Imagine Snake's. AND those percentages are for a "good" dair (a "bad" dair is when you get the biggest space possible between the last hit of your dair and your landing, resulting in mediocre frame advantage. Dair's equivalent to tripping. It can lose you games!). Selecting dsmash from dair can be a better decision depending on positioning and the opposing character's ability to recover.

oh, if they DI the downthrow(or don't DI) such that you can follow up with something like SH fair, I like to SH uair (it autocancels). You could usually immediately follow up with another uair right away.

Personally, I prefer the fair (**** you and your sense of humor if you didn't like that), unless uair will tipper (no possible trade, plus you land first; this situation is a free hit). If I'm going to wait though, I'd rather zone in and shieldgrab an aerial/airdodge (notes: attempting powerblock aids timing a lot, remember to cover your ears!; nair can work if they barely land behind you with an airdodge), or zone in outside of their range and dash attack an aerial's landing cool-down or an air-dodge landing.

1) In what situations do you advise to use jab? And when it actually is used, what mix ups are your favorite? Like do you think it's better to go for jab1> something or JJC> something? And what are some good options for that "something"? (this is kinda wordy...)

Jab1 interrupts many moves because of its speed (and range, considering it's not abysmal like downb's), disrupt opposing inputs and lets you grab the opponent while they buffer something stupid or stay in block, but results in a big frame disadvantage. It's best if you have your opponent in shambles or don't have a habit to attack immediately back (watch out for button mashers), and though it's sometimes a good move to interrupt opponents, its main use is as a desperate attempt to continue a combo (and it usually works since most players are desperate while being subject to a string.

Jab2 doesn't result in frame disadvantage, but it gives the opponent slightly more chance to react. It's also good, and mixing them up (although, in the first place, I don't think you should jab often) can be dread for your opponents. If you see high enough DI, you can sometimes jab again, or shieldgrab a fast nair if your opponent's character has one. Jab2 as was mentioned is useful when you have an opponent at the ledge. Jab2 into jab cancel into another jab2 etc. (into a downb if it reaches) will unable opponents to grab the ledge, thus placing many characters in a very bad position (Snake), and outright KO Falco.

About punishing hop approaches from BF platforms, in what mindset should we do that? I know that we can grab some things like pika's/ICs SH uair, but in what context should we do it in?

You think "oh, maybe he'll SH ¿?air me. i'll walk into him and block in case he does it". That's it. Just a counter.

In other words, do you predict the uair and shieldgrab it, or is there enough time to shieldgrab with normal reflexes due to shield stun?

Normal reflexes are just fine. It doesn't require much mental commitment.

And if the opponent doesn't actually SH uair, what are good options to do OoS from above on the platform?

If they don't do the attack, I like to jump away.

I have to recheck, but if you were to attempt to buffer a downsmash with the cstick, I think you dtilt(which is kinda bad as fox). Is there a buffer input to get around this?

Cstick down will always buffer a dsmash, unless you held the control stick downward while csticking. The control stick interrupts your Cstick's "smash" function. This is why a Csticked dair won't automatically fast fall while you hold down.

Do you feel it's necessary to learn to buffer platform drops?

I really can't say. I don't know if it can be buffered, but haven't found myself in need of learning such a technique.

If you mean buffered platform drops FROM BLOCK, then I don't know if it can be buffered either (though I'd bet it can't be). I see great potential in learning platform drops from block, but I don't know if it's humanly possible to do it consistently.

In regards to the fair-uair thing. He was Zelda and DI's poorly LOL

Fair to uair does work sometimes. It's just not a staple. If the aerial can reach, it's viable. You should think so about every aerial. They all have their moments.

Jab is bad. Only time I use it is when people with bad recoveries are off stages, I jab them>Edgehog/Guard.

Jab is an OK duck-tape to forcefully continue strings sometimes. It can also interrupt things like dash approaches and slower or later-inputed moves. Those are pretty much its 2 uses onstage. Jab is just very hard to react to, which is why it works. If the opponent is button mashing frequently, was ready to react to a jab (bad for them, because them covering the uncommon jab option won't do much for them), or you're being too predictable (bad for you, since you shouldn't frequent jab use much anyhow) it won't work.

The only complete failure in Fox's moveset is dtilt, and even that combos into dash attack into turn-around grab against some characters at 0% (everything buffered of course). LOL.

I keep getting mixed results with buffering dsmash...weird.

Like, I can easily do it from a dair. But whenever I try the Hard nair>Dsmash combo, I occasionally get a Dtilt.

Hm...now that you mention it, I probably was holding down on the control stick.

I'll have to keep this in mind next time.

I'm 100% sure you're holding down while C-sticking. That's not a buffered dsmash. Anyhow, hard nair to dsmash? I recommend hard nair to walk grab.

Since I use the Wii controller(sideways), it's really hard for me to get the Up smash and Down smash out of Dair, do you know when I should buffer them?

I buffer the follow-up during dair's landing cooldown. It has a lot of cooldown. You're probably doing inputs too quickly as though you were landing with an autocancel.

I think I discovered something though. When you use Dair, you could input the attacks of Up smash and Down smash at the same time the smoke breaks out of the floor when the Dair hits the ground. Do you think this is the right timing to buffer?

If you mean "from Fox's landing to the end of dair's cool-down is a good measure of the buffer window", then yes.

If your still in lag of any move and input a cstick down in the buffer window of 10 frames you will automatically do a dtilt. If you don´t get a dtilt but a dsmash out of it you are not buffering correctly.
This is how mk´s are doing their fair to frame perfect dtilt.

People can't see frames. They can only feel them. Playing enough teaches you the buffer window (the last 10 frames before you can move) for each of your moves. Buffering is how everyone good does anything, by the way.

Playing Fox is becoming more difficult now that my c-stick is becoming sort of shotty...

Time to get a new controller.

 

[knuckles213]

hey TKD, I meant to ask you earlier, but MY internet was messing up.

I've been watching alot of your vids old and new and I saw that every you do is so quick, lagless, and fluid; like when you constantly jump/laser/moving around. (I understand that there should be no dead time for fox, but I feel slow compare to the way you play)

I was wander what exercises do you do for alot of your play? (to get better) I do remeeber you telling me to practice with the cpu for 15min a day, but what can include or what did you do to get you fox the way it is. oh and does backfliping help fox's momentum when moving (running or walking or SHSL, SHDL, and SHTL)?

do you use default controls?

 

[TKD]

maybe you're focusing on the fox. i think i'm just watching the opposing char while playing, and space short hops and stuff while doing it. you'll move according to your intentions...i think. i'm kinda high right now.
but when i moved best was when i played a lot. more practice = more control i guess. char control is what looks pretty.

edit: i used to play melee and looking fluid was important to me since then.

 

[fox67890]

What method do you use to struggle out of grabs, TKD?

Edit: I usually find that hitting with the back part of utilt to be more beneficial than hitting with the front part. Do you think otherwise, or perhaps does it depend on the situation/character?

Also, do you have any advice about predicting the direction of drift a opponent will choose? This could help whenever I utilt someone.

 

[TKD]

I repeatedly tap opposing directions of the control stick while sliding my right thumb back and forth from X to C-stick and tapping R with my index. There's a better method that involves changing the D-pad commands, though.

The back part of utilt is much faster and has better range. The front part gives you more frame advantage. There are more chances to land the back part, but IMO the front is better the chances you get to land that.

I assume you're talking about landings. I just predict a drift and cover most of its options with walk block or preparing to dash attack (to prepare to dash attack a landing air-dodge or aerial, face the opponent and space just outside of the range of their aerials with walk), or predict an air-dodge in which case the direction doesn't matter because I can dsmash. Predicting an aerial can be very benefitial so you attempt a powerblock. If you want to kill right there it has to be kind of a hard read. Sometimes you can utilt preemptively from below the opponent since air-dodging will get them dsmashed.

If I predict a drift away from me, I'll walk and block to the predicted landing spot. If it seems like they'll air-dodge through me instead, I unblock to prepare to utilt if there's time.

*New day*
I usually play with both L and R buttons and just go crazy. No plans, no precision, just execution and improvising. But lately my L button broke, and I was forced to only using the R. This made me press the button CONSCIOUSLY and made me more conscious about my inputs in general. I'm becoming as precise as I was when I played a lot (which I have no vids to show for it, but you trust me I know ), and am reaching a skill level where I even feel I can beat MK as DDD (profound understanding of the game again).

My habit of using both buttons comes from Melee, in which I blocked with L and wavedashed with R. I don't know if switching to ONLY 1 BLOCK BUTTON would help other players, but it's definitely doing wonders for me, and I've noticed that even Otori does it.

*Spot-dodge usmash vs grabs*
I did some frame counting, and figured out that a spotdodge input 4 to 12 frames before an opponent's grab input, will result in a connected buffered usmash. That's a window of 9 frames. To be exact, if your command is 13 frames early or before (which is kind of irrelevant since your opponent probably saw the spot-dodge already by this time), it's so early that the spotdodge ends and the opposing grab will connect. If you spot-dodge 3 frames early or later, you took too much time and the usmash will be powerblocked.

This is one of those things that requires intuition (I already straight up usmash from block early to counter incoming grabs, or mk's roll which is vulnerable 4 frames instead of 1), but if you hard read a grab, a spot-dodge has a window of 9 frames to punish a grab with the usmash. That's a pretty big window, but it only counters 1 option so it's a truly hard read. Just make sure you input EARLY because it has to be 4 or more frames early.

MK's forward roll will, unfortunately, almost always counter Fox's spot-dodge (except if you spot-dodged pretty early and buffered a roll).
Fortunately, on the other hand, having spot-dodged MK's dashgrab will ALWAYS, 100% of the time, give you enough frame advantage for a buffered usmash to connect. Spot-dodging MK's dashgrab at KO %'s takes the stock (I hope you know which side to usmash towards).

6/4/2012
I won a local yesterday. Havok didn't attend. The toughest moment for me was probably my first round. I decided to go DDD for as long as I could and had quite a close set with an Olimar player. Then I got IceDX (Lucario) who I just countered and surprised and chaingrabbed and dthrew to usmashed and edgeguarded a lot. Did pretty well until winner final's, when AC went beat me with MK in a pretty close match. DDD vs MK is a lot of work, so I didn't want to do that again and counterpicked Fox for an easy win. Then I went Marth, he went Snake and ***** me. He proceeded to go Falco which I Pikachooed. Then finally I beat a Falco on FD as MK. I think Grand Finals was just me losing an MK ditto, winning the next 2, losing I have no idea what match-up and then winning a Fox vs Snake on Stadium.

Just a lot of fooling around today since there were no really serious sets. Doubles was random ranker + random non-ranked partner which Krad (Ike) and I won while staying in winner's bracket, too. It was a lot of fun! He'd follow up my stuff with his fsmash and I'd save him lots with uair or nado (I exclusively play MK in doubles, btw. Haven't tried Fox since double MK's banned. There's a chance that he's good now).

Upsets were pretty much IceDX getting 3rd, and Rival beating Tlako (who is considered our 4th best player).

Anyway, now the mechanical things.

Good counters vs common MK stuff:
I'll cover the long range things first.

Dash Attack: Block, unblock, dsmash (learn to do this EVERY TIME)
Dashgrab: Walk away, anything (easy: utilt/dsmash. harder: tagrab/tausmash. fsmash works too)
Whiffed buffered SH fair: Dash attack (above 40%) if spacing's appropriate. You can MAKE the spacing appropriate by walking up to the opponent a bit so they barely whiff. Usmash works too but is harder to land so it's best if it'll kill or if it won't be punished on hit like dash attack.
Blocked buffered SH fair: Shieldgrab or unblock, dash attack (above 40%) or unblock, dash usmash
Buffered full hop fair: Dash usmash. BSHfair PROBABLY works and it's easier to land if it works, but I haven't thought about it (if I've done it, I can't remember).

I like to roll through MK a lot. If he's busy doing fair, dash attack, dash grab, ftilt, or roll, he'll usually miss Fox's roll and we're back to neutral. It's just annoying for him. If he rolls through you while you block, respond by rolling away from his new spot. Same result.