The Reason Why Sheik's Absence in Twilight Princess Means NOTHING

[JonBeBonanza]

i didin't even know that sheik not being in brawl was an option

 

[Circus]

Geez. You guys are making this so intense. This topic has been done to death already, and everyone is still at each other's throats about it. You'd think after the 2349872098634th Sheik thread everybody would've at least mellowed out about the whole thing.

Why can't there ever just be calm, healthy discussion/debate on the internet? Why must EVERYTHING be a "This is what I think. . . and you're stupid if you don't agree with me" deal?

It must be all that rock and roll you crazy kids listen to these days.

 

[The_Corax_King]

Geez. You guys are making this so intense. This topic has been done to death already, and everyone is still at each other's throats about it. You'd think after the 2349872098634th Sheik thread everybody would've at least mellowed out about the whole thing.

Why can't there ever just be calm, healthy discussion/debate on the internet? Why must EVERYTHING be a "This is what I think. . . and you're stupid if you don't agree with me" deal?

It must be all that rock and roll you crazy kids listen to these days.

I know... but it's the fact that people are still whining about Sheik even though she's been confirmed...

 

[The Great Tama]

Geez. You guys are making this so intense. This topic has been done to death already, and everyone is still at each other's throats about it. You'd think after the 2349872098634th Sheik thread everybody would've at least mellowed out about the whole thing.

Why can't there ever just be calm, healthy discussion/debate on the internet? Why must EVERYTHING be a "This is what I think. . . and you're stupid if you don't agree with me" deal?

It must be all that rock and roll you crazy kids listen to these days.

Between the 1st and 2349872098634th Sheik thread, users came and went. Some people, like me, weren't around for the first couple of Sheik threads. Stop generalizing.

 

[vesperview]

Between the 1st and 2349872098634th Sheik thread, users came and went. Some people, like me, weren't around for the first couple of Sheik threads. Stop generalizing.

He's not generalizing, every Sheik thread has been a flame war.

 

[Panduh]

You win.
You succeed.
You own.
You slay.
You're right. Times a billion.
Thank you. So much.

 

[The_Corax_King]

yeah they always erupt into bloody battles...

 

[Circus]

Between the 1st and 2349872098634th Sheik thread, users came and went. Some people, like me, weren't around for the first couple of Sheik threads. Stop generalizing.

That doesn't mean that these discussions always have to be so filled with flames. Even if you came later, you can participate in discussion while being civil about everything.

I mean, I'm no exception. I've gotten short with people I've argued with before over this because it just gets frustrating. I just find it so crazy that even today, people who were arguing about Sheik months and months ago can repeat the same points they've made again and again and debate with the same fervor. I've only been here for about half a year and I'm burnt out.

You win.
You succeed.
You own.
You slay.
You're right. Times a billion.
Thank you. So much.

Awe c'mon now. You could've worked a "Flawless Victory" in there somewhere, couldn't you?

 

[HipsterKid]

This is from the Zelda boards.

it actually means

"Eldin's Fire, Lanaryu's Love, Faron's Wind, and Twilight Change."

i got it from this: http://brawlcentral.com/
"Zelda's Final Smash has been leaked. Her Final Smash is the Light Arrow. The reason we know this is not her B move is because the background around her is dark and she has the "Final Smash aura" around her entire body and bow. This means the move is not a special move. As said in a previous update, we wouldn't be reporting on any of the leak stories unless we had confirmation, but this seems like its real...Zelda's four specials are listed on the front of the card as "Eldin's Fire, Lanaryu's Love, Faron's Wind, and Twilight Change." The thing is, Zelda doesn't have a twilight change in Twilight Princess. The translation for the final Special move reads: "Twilight Change (Original Twilight version of Shiek transformation)" A rough translation says "Twilight version Seek Transformation". Seek is the Japanese version of Shiek, so there ya go. We have multiple translators confirming this."

Alright, even though I am totally pro-Sheik, I will help go against this Sheik-is-in argument...
Look at what I bolded. Lanayru, Eldin, and Faron. If you've payed attention to Twilight Princess, they're all Light Spirits from TP.

From Wikipedia:

The Light Spirits (光の精霊, Hikari no Seirei?) are four deities; Ordona, Faron, Eldin, and Lanayru. Each Light Spirit resides in a fountain somewhere in the province named after it: the goat-like Ordona near the north end of Ordon Province, the lemur-like Faron just within the Faron Woods, the owl-like Eldin at the edge of Kakariko, and the serpentine Lanayru at the edge of Lake Hylia. Each Light Spirit's name resembles that of one of the three goddesses of Hyrule (i.e. Lanayru, Eldin, Faron and Ordona).

The names of the attacks for Brawl probably aren't just the Japanese names, especially since Eldin has the L in it that probably wouldn't be in a Japanese language. They probably were changed on purpose to make it seem a lot more TP based. Going on this, they would be qualified as "TP" moves. That leans more towards cloaked Zelda. However, that doesn't "debunk" Sheik as you all put it. Sure, the Original Post does seem to contradict himself, but I'm sure that we all know what he means by it.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Hey guys

Answer me this one thing.
Why do you want Sheik removed? You say that because Sheik is so good and Zelda is so crappy that Zelda is less of a character in comparison. A ratio of 1 to .75 you say. So you propose that Sheik should be nerfed or made a separate character to rectify this. This is a pretty weak argument, I think.
Some characters are good. Some suck. Zelda just happened to suck. It's not like they were trying to make Sheik all that much better than Zelda. They just gave the characters movelists that best reflected them, and Zelda just happens to suck. She's not the only character who does.

 

[Oh Gibdo]

Alright, she is in TP form, so turning into Shiek makes no sense.

But you know what? WHO CARES!? Would you seriously rather have Zelda without Shiek? I think sacrificing logic is worth it when it means having another character.

 

[Circus]

This is from the Zelda boards.

"Eldin's Fire, Lanaryu's Love, Faron's Wind, and Twilight Change."

I'd just like to say, I totally called it.

I mean, not exactly what the new names are, but when everyone was trying to shove the "SHE'S GOT DIN'S FIRE SO SHE'S GONNA TURN INTO SHEIK AGAIN DUH!" crap down my throat, I mentioned that we didn't know whether or not the spells would keep their OoT names.

I feel vindicated. Or something.

 

[Circus]

Would you seriously rather have Zelda without Shiek?

Yes.

I think sacrificing logic is worth it when it means having another character.

I agree, IF I like that character. I don't like Sheik.

I would not like it if, hypothetically, Sakurai decided to delay Brawl for another month or two so that he could add K. Rool. Or Geno. Or some other character I don't care for. Sure, SOMEONE will be grateful, but from my point of you, it just means I get the game later.

EDIT: Gah. No one felt like posting in the last 5 minutes?

 

[The Great Tama]

Hey guys

Answer me this one thing.
Why do you want Sheik removed? You say that because Sheik is so good and Zelda is so crappy that Zelda is less of a character in comparison. A ratio of 1 to .75 you say. So you propose that Sheik should be nerfed or made a separate character to rectify this. This is a pretty weak argument, I think.
Some characters are good. Some suck. Zelda just happened to suck. It's not like they were trying to make Sheik all that much better than Zelda. They just gave the characters movelists that best reflected them, and Zelda just happens to suck. She's not the only character who does.

I would love Sheik to return. I honestly don't know where the hate comes from.

 

[HipsterKid]

I'd just like to say, I totally called it.

I mean, not exactly what the new names are, but when everyone was trying to shove the "SHE'S GOT DIN'S FIRE SO SHE'S GONNA TURN INTO SHEIK AGAIN DUH!" crap down my throat, I mentioned that we didn't know whether or not the spells would keep their OoT names.

I feel vindicated. Or something.

Heh, nice call.

However, I don't see how that changes anything. I mean, how could you honestly say it makes a big difference. The Light Spirits were TP's version of Din, Farore, and Nayru. The light spirits names are even derived from the originals. It was just a name change. They moves (apparently) still have more or less the same features. Well, that just might be my opinion.
Take to it however you feel.

 

[Circus]

Heh, nice call.

However, I don't see how that changes anything. I mean, how could you honestly say it makes a big difference. The Light Spirits were TP's version of Din, Farore, and Nayru. The light spirits names are even derived from the originals. It was just a name change. They moves (apparently) still have more or less the same features. Well, that just might be my opinion.
Take to it however you feel.

The name change is important to me just because in past Sheik arguments I've had, the names of the spells were used as a means of proving that Zelda wasn't just Twilight Princess Zelda, and that she would, without doubt, return with Sheik. Now that the spells have different names (as small a name change as they might be), it makes Zelda that much more TP orientated. Din's Fire (or, Eldin's Fire as the case is now) in particular is important because it is now COMPLETELY it's own move, since it doesn't even work the way Din's Fire did in Ocarina of Time.

Based on all of this, plus the TP changes made to Link, I've come to the conclusion that Sheik is most likely NOT returning, but her moveset will return in the form of a cloaked Zelda. I truly don't think the there will even be a name change between the two "characters". With so much of the LoZ cast being changed to be more Twilight Princess based, I would find it incredibly odd if Sheik were the one thing not to get updated (updated, in this case, meaning replaced).

Bah. I told myself I wouldn't get into more Sheik discussion. Though, at least this is kind of new.

 

[Brasil]

Christ all-mighty people reply quickly. Or maybe 2-player co-op Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance in Extreme Mode just takes that long. Either way...

I had replied initially because the OP was being a prick. I generally have nothing against most people, and forums are no different. But if I see someone acting extraordinarily stupid, I'm going to chime in. At least try to set things straight.

I reply now because nobody here has nary an intelligent thought in their pretty little heads. I see nonsensical titles for both sides of this "argument" and I can't help but chuckle. I see some of the worst "logic" I've ever read, and this is coming from a guy who really digs philosophy. In all honesty, this thread is more comedic gold in a weird pathetic Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou kind of way. But since Bill Murray is godly, it all works out.

With that said, it's exceedingly clear to me that this entire issue isn't so much Sheik WILL or Sheik WON'T be in Brawl, but HOW she'll appear. I mean, we aren't that stupid to think that Sheik's going to get the boot. If we can realistically see Falco staying, there's no reason to question Sheik's return.

But like I said, it's a question of HOW. And then from there, there are two major possibilities. After that, you need to take a step back and really think about which is more likely to happen. Not "which one you'd prefer to see" or "which one is right according to game canon".

First possibility is Ocarina of Time still hangs on for dear life. The character models would reflect that. Moves would reflect that. Names would reflect that. Could this happen? Yeah, it could. Is it likely? Consider that Ocarina of Time is dead by over a decade now and you have your answer.

So what's the second possibility? Something we've seen already. Twilight Princess becomes the current template for Legend of Zelda characters. Link is already using his Gale Boomerang, TP-style bombs, and Clawshot. There's no question his character model is TP. Zelda, same thing. Her character model is TP. Her moves have been re-named. And the translation roughly indicates a change to her transformation.

We've heard that Ganondorf and Sheik have gone back to the drawing boards for Brawl, so to speak, to be given TP-makeovers. Why?

Because Twilight Princess is obviously the new template for characters.

Sure, you could argue a variety of different counters, but when you really think about it, canon itself is a stupid, stupid, stupid discussion in and of itself, because no game has ever truly had consistent canon, and the Zelda series is a major offender there. The plot in the series (if we can consider anything there to be a plot) is fragmented as all hell to begin with. The games jump around chronologically. It's asinine to think "canon" can be used for anything...because "canon" doesn't really exist.

And "canon" sure as hell doesn't exist in Smash Bros. Smash is basically the Nintendo version of Mortal Kombat or [Insert Generic Fighting Game Here]. There's a bare-bones "story" that's only included to propel the fighting forward. Nothing else. SSE in Brawl will be no different. At times it'll seem like a Special Ed kid drooled all over a paper.

It's safe to say that chaos is going to be happening in Brawl no matter which characters appear in SSE. Parts of SSB64 and Melee felt like an acid trip gone horribly horribly wrong. Brawl will be no different. And in fact, I'm betting on seeing Zelda come face-to-face with her Twilight counterpart. Hell, that may very well be how you unlock the other side.

This post has gone on for longer than I wanted. So toodles.

 

[Pluvius]

Couldn't Zelda's new Down B simply be her turning into her possessed by Ganon akin to the ending of TP?

 

[Circus]

Couldn't Zelda's new Down B simply be her turning into her possessed by Ganon akin to the ending of TP?

It could. And I wouldn't be opposed to the idea.

But I think the cloaked Zelda change is more probable just because that makes the Sheik moveset fans (note: different from Sheik fans, though the two do overlap) happy.

Plus there's the whole "WE'VE GOT TOO MANY FREAKING SWORDS, DUDE" thing that people moan about.

 

[Pluvius]

There are only like 5 swords, ish. Link, Ike, Meta Knight?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I really don't think it matters why Shiek should or should not return at this point...

Because it looks like some kind of shiek is in the game

 

[The_Corax_King]

The robe idea is ridiculous...

You sheik-haters will just cling to anything won't you?

Giving zelda a completely new moveset based on her standing alone in a tower? Give me a break...

 

[joeysmash]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO SHIEK

twilight transform sounds like not shiek but something lse...

 

[Reyairia]

Hey guys

Answer me this one thing.
Why do you want Sheik removed?

I don't care for Sheik, but...
1) A disguise for a game made 10 years ago does not deserve it's own spot. I don't care how "unique" it was.
2) Even if Sheik is nerfed, due to Melee experience people will still use her over Zelda 90% of the time.

Now, this can easily be fixed if;
1) Sheik appears as Zelda's final smash like Zero Suit Samus does or is the final smash entirely like Wario-Man.
(Of course, this is no longer possible)
2) There is a stamina system the same way with Pokemon Trainer, made so the player must master both the characters and can't just ignore the other. (I think this is why Sakurai implemented it to begin with with PT, not because of any weakness gimmick, so naturally it would be implemented with any other transformation character)

 

[k-sin]

Honestly, Zelda could do better without him.... She's a difficult character and with sheik attached it's a way you don't have to deal with the difficulty of using Zelda. I'd prefer just Zelda with a new down+B.

 

[Soluble Toast]

The robe idea is ridiculous...

You sheik-haters will just cling to anything won't you?

Giving zelda a completely new moveset based on her standing alone in a tower? Give me a break...

Why is it ridiculous?

Zelda's B moves have been Renamed to fit with the light spirits of TP. This, coupled with light arrows shows Sakurai wants to take Zelda into a direction AWAY from OOT. Robed Zelda was seen with the sign of the Sheikah. Sheik was a poser of the Sheikah tribe..Sakurai could spot this and say " Sheikah symbol! Sheik!? Here's my way to take Brawl Zelda COMPLETELY away from OOT"

Honestly.Cloaked Zelda has as much chance as Sheik.

The OP's argument fails anyway. His post is a world of contradictions.

CLOAKED ZELDA FTB!

;D

 

[PwnyRide]

The robe idea is ridiculous...

You sheik-haters will just cling to anything won't you?

Giving zelda a completely new moveset based on her standing alone in a tower? Give me a break...

Because lord knows, we all saw Sheik fight in OoT...

 

[Pluvius]

Twilight Transform is either Zelda in a cloak or Zelda with a sword & some evil eyes, really.

 

[silver777]

Giving zelda a completely new moveset based on her standing alone in a tower? Give me a break...

Sheik did awesome stuff in OOT, other than teaching you songs!!

......

 

[Tyeforce]

He's not generalizing, every Sheik thread has been a flame war.

Maybe because people like you start them.

This is from the Zelda boards.


Alright, even though I am totally pro-Sheik, I will help go against this Sheik-is-in argument...
Look at what I bolded. Lanayru, Eldin, and Faron. If you've payed attention to Twilight Princess, they're all Light Spirits from TP.

From Wikipedia:


The names of the attacks for Brawl probably aren't just the Japanese names, especially since Eldin has the L in it that probably wouldn't be in a Japanese language. They probably were changed on purpose to make it seem a lot more TP based. Going on this, they would be qualified as "TP" moves. That leans more towards cloaked Zelda. However, that doesn't "debunk" Sheik as you all put it. Sure, the Original Post does seem to contradict himself, but I'm sure that we all know what he means by it.

That's interesting, I didn't see that. Meh, they're still the same moves, though.

 

[gangstajuice656]

shiek is defenitly returning and young link is a defenite not returning! BUT now young link has a more bigger chance for returning!!

 

[raphtmarqui]

I always knew Shiek would return. Their not going to throw away a perfectly good moveset for no reason/

 

[vesperview]

Giving zelda a completely new moveset based on her standing alone in a tower? Give me a break...

Yeah, because Sheik did a lot more than playing a harp in OoT, right?

Maybe because people like you start them.

Maybe because people like you post crap like this and then can't take an argument?

 

[AuraLancer]

I don't care either way if Shiek returns. I see that I wasn't the only one to immediately think of that cloak when I saw "Twilight Change".

...and if Shiek isn't playable, we know she's gonna be an awesome assist trophy. There's no way Sakurai would boot a veteran without making them a hight-tier assist trophy/Pokeball. Except maybe Pichu.

 

[Tyeforce]

Maybe because people like you post crap like this and then can't take an argument?

We don't want ANY arguments in the first place. People like you just like to wreck "failing" threads. And didn't you say you were leaving this thread?

 

[The Adder]

To the OP, man, I was laughing my arse off as I was reading your post. You act like you know something about plot and story construction...but coming from an English major, you don't know jack. Nowhere in your post did you say anything worthwhile. lol. And your thoughts on Brawl's "story" needing to be consistent were laughable at best. If you were talking about literary works, then using internal logical consistency would be appropriate.

But here, don't be so trite, simplistic, misguided, and annoying. You refute the No Sheik argument with "Brawl is illogically inconsistent" then turn right around and use SSE ("Brawl is logically consistent") to somehow magically establish that Sheik will be in Brawl as Zelda's transformation, because of your own misguided and vapid notion that Brawl's storyline has to be logically consistent?

Do you even realize how massive of a contradiction your entire argument is? You're saying that Brawl is inconsistent when it suits your inane Quixotic quest, and then turn around and say that Brawl must be consistent, coincidentally also when it suits your inane Quixotic quest.

Come on, man. You really believe you can have this both ways? That Brawl can both be insanely random and chaotic, while at the same time adhering to some farcical internal consistency that's pretty much impossible since its story mode is almost guaranteed to turn out to be a fan-fic gone horribly, horribly, horribly wrong...

You've proven nothing but your own inexperience when it comes to literary analysis proper.

Sure Sheik's gonna be in Brawl in some form. But before you go ranting about how other people don't "get it" at least take a few frigging basic-level literature courses so you at least understand the concept you're flubbing around.

People like you make the rest of us English majors look bad.

To elborate: I can't stand people who throw around their large vocabularies when it is totally uncalled for just to make themselves look more intelligent.

 

[Brasil]

People like you make the rest of us English majors look bad.

To elborate: I can't stand people who throw around their large vocabularies when it is totally uncalled for just to make themselves look more intelligent.

Haha. If you want to see me throwing around my large vocabulary, I totally could. If you want me to really crank out some insanely long dissertation on plot structure, I totally could. In that initial post, I neither was trying to make myself look more intelligent, nor was I throwing around any large vocabulary.

On the contrary, there really were no complex terms used in that post. If you're going to get on my arse for "internal logical consistency," "Quixotic," "farcical," and "literary analysis proper," then you need to take a step back and re-consider what it is you're learning, because those terms sure as hell aren't remotely abstract or complicated. And they most certainly weren't uncalled for in this thread. Know why?

Because I called the thread like it was. Nothing more.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't see the return of Shiek as unlikely.
Just unnecessary.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

hey woah what the

vesperview, you're an a-hole or saying that

 

[adumbrodeus]

So by your logic Wind Waker Link could turn into Wolf Link with no problem, or TP Link could put on the Oni Mask and turn into Fierce Deity Link.

EXACTLY!

Only, without the eyerolling.

Evidence for the unified character theory, SSB can use any attribute from any LoZ game in the LoZ characters since the smash incarnation represents all incarnations of said characters.

Though a meet-up between Young Link (aka Cell Shaded Link) and regular link would be weird....

Still, since I guess young Link meeting Link would be akin to meeting yourself from the future, which is still weird but Sakurai could do it if he wanted.

To the OP, man, I was laughing my arse off as I was reading your post. You act like you know something about plot and story construction...but coming from an English major, you don't know jack. Nowhere in your post did you say anything worthwhile. lol. And your thoughts on Brawl's "story" needing to be consistent were laughable at best. If you were talking about literary works, then using internal logical consistency would be appropriate.

I'm sorry but internal logical consistency is not restricted to literary works, it's a functional requirement in all storytelling mediums.

But here, don't be so trite, simplistic, misguided, and annoying. You refute the No Sheik argument with "Brawl is illogically inconsistent" then turn right around and use SSE ("Brawl is logically consistent") to somehow magically establish that Sheik will be in Brawl as Zelda's transformation, because of your own misguided and vapid notion that Brawl's storyline has to be logically consistent?

No, he said that Brawl's storyline required internal logical consistency, since it's a storytelling medium, however, he pointed out that it is not required to be consistent with LoZ's storyline. In other words, Brawl's internal logical consistency is not dependant on being consistent with LoZ. Merely being consistent with itself.

Do you even realize how massive of a contradiction your entire argument is? You're saying that Brawl is inconsistent when it suits your inane Quixotic quest, and then turn around and say that Brawl must be consistent, coincidentally also when it suits your inane Quixotic quest.

You misread, maintaining consistency with LoZ is not the same as maintaining interanal consistency and narrative cohesion.

Come on, man. You really believe you can have this both ways? That Brawl can both be insanely random and chaotic, while at the same time adhering to some farcical internal consistency that's pretty much impossible since its story mode is almost guaranteed to turn out to be a fan-fic gone horribly, horribly, horribly wrong...

It happens all the time in storytelling mediums, suspension of disbelief. The writer's have the right to decide what the rules of their creation are (assuming of course, it's non-fiction), they can decide that Gods are created by belief in them, that a giant white whale exists that a mad captain is attempting to kill, whatever they desire.

But, internal consistency is still key to any good narrative.

Setting the rules does not mean that something does not have internal consistency.