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The Reason Why Sheik's Absence in Twilight Princess Means NOTHING

Tyeforce

Smash Apprentice
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Okay, I'm tired of people saying that because Link and Zelda have their Twilight Princess models in Brawl, and the fact that Sheik is not in Twilight Princess, Sheik will not be in Brawl. Some people think it will mess up everything canon. I'll explain why all of this mean absolutely NOTHING.



Firstly, Super Smash Bros. games are not canon. Therefor, anything can happen and it won't have any affect whatsoever on the actual game story.



Second, consistency is not important in Super Smash Bros. Even though almost everything Zelda-related in Brawl if in Twilight Princess form, including Link, Zelda, Bridge of Eldin, and the Heart Container, there are still references to other Zelda games.

For example, the Temple stage based on Zelda II is back. A Deku Nut, an item only in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, is now an item in Brawl. Zelda still has her Ocarina of Time spells; Nayru's Love, Din's Fire, and Farore's Wind.

And then there's this:



Notice Zelda does NOT wear a headdress in Twilight Princess. This is the same Kirby hat from Melee, straight from young Zelda from Ocarina of Time.



However, as most of you probably know by know, there has been a leak that states Zelda's Down Special is, roughly translated from Japanese, "Twilight Change (Original Twilight version of Sheik transformation)".



Now, many people think this mean Zelda's "Sheik" form will be replaced by "cloaked Zelda" from Twilight Princess with a similar moveset.



As this does sound like a good idea, this does not mean that Sheik as we know him/her/it/potato will be gone. Sheik will definitely get a makeover, but I very much doubt that he/she/it/potato will be replaced with "cloaked Zelda". I can see the new Sheik having a similar look, but definitely not just a cloaked Zelda. There is evidence to support this "cloaked Zelda" replacement, though.

If you've played Twilight Princess, you may have noticed a symbol on the back of Zelda's cloak. This symol is, indeed, the symbol of the Sheikah race, of which Sheik is supposed to be part of. (Sheik is not really a Sheikah; she is just Zelda in costume taking the form of a Sheik. Thus, Sheik is actually Hylian.)



So, there is a small reference to the Sheikah (including Impaz, supposedly the last remaining Sheikah), and one could say it also refers to Sheik. However you see it, it doesn't matter. Sheik does not have to be in Twilight Princess for her (I'm just gonna stop using he/she/it/potato) to be in Brawl.

One last thing. Many people think that it might be a good idea to make Sheik a separate character from Zelda. This cannot be, though. And I can prove it with two words: SubSpace Emissary.



Even though Smash Bros is not canon to other games, it should have it's own canon story. What would happen when Zelda comes across herself in costume in Adventure Mode?! Chaos, that's what. Even though Smash Bros. in general doesn't make much sense, a unique and original story should. This is why Dr. Mario is going to be removed (and if you think otherwise, someone needs to slap some sense into you.) This is also why Paper Mario (a character that I once supported until I thought about Adventure Mode) has a very slim chance. Maybe another Paper Mario character will get in, but not Mario himself. Two Marios = wrong.



In the case of Young Link, though (assuming he comes back as cel-shaded Link), he is a completely different character. Young Link from Melee was the same Link from a different time. This new Link, however, would be totally different from the Twilight Princess Link. They are completely different people, from two different times and places. I can see a time travel-related event happening in Adventure Mode causing them to meet.



Anyway, this is why Sheik cannot be her own individual character.

In conclusion, Sheik is definitely returning, and she is very likely to be Twilight Princess-esque, possibly similar to "cloaked Zelda", but not the same.
 

Kronzo

Smash Apprentice
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Yeah.. well i hope Sheik is in Brawl, she is one of my mains.
 

vesperview

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So by your logic Wind Waker Link could turn into Wolf Link with no problem, or TP Link could put on the Oni Mask and turn into Fierce Deity Link.:rolleyes:

Really, the transformation probably won't be Sheik so we just have to wait and see.
 

OnyxVulpine

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Ah.. Um.. Oh...

Agree for the most part.

There were some parts where I had some trouble understanding but in essence I agree. Sheik was one of my mains I guess since Zelda was my main and I would switch depending on whom I face (I'm casual) it would be nice to have her back.

-Onyx
 

Tyeforce

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So by your logic Wind Waker Link could turn into Wolf Link with no problem, or TP Link could put on the Oni Mask and turn into Fierce Deity Link.:rolleyes:

Really, the transformation probably won't be Sheik so we just have to wait and see.
How are you getting that from my post? You're entirely stupid if you believe things like that would happen. You're just trying to point out any flaws because you doubt Sheik will return. I pity you.
 

vesperview

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How are you getting that from my post? You're entirely stupid if you believe things like that would happen. You're just trying to point out any flaws because you doubt Sheik will return. I pity you.
No, it's the same **** thing, TP Zelda=/= OoT Zelda, really you're the only stupid one to think that makes sense, Sheik wouldn't have a shot right now if she wouldn't have been in Melee, despite how much of a shoe in you're trying to pretend she is.

Yeah and by your logic, any Zelda could turn into Sheik, any Link could turn into Wolf Link, because it doesn't affect the Zelda games in any way, it's ridiculous.
 

Tyeforce

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No, it's the same **** thing, TP Zelda=/= OoT Zelda, really you're the only stupid one to think that makes sense, Sheik wouldn't have a shot right now if she wouldn't have been in Melee, despite how much of a shoe in you're trying to pretend she is.

Yeah and by your logic, any Zelda could turn into Sheik, ridiculous.
No, YOU are ridiculous. Face the facts...

Uh, CoroCoro pretty much confirmed otherwise. Sheik's in, no reason to debate anymore. See Brawl Central.
SHEIK IS IN. ACCEPT IT.

[/argument]


I just noticed!
This is my 100th post!! W00t!!!
 

Tyeforce

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Nice comeback to cover up your terrible logic, you're an idiot, this thread is stupid whether Sheik is in or not.
Uh, I think you missed the point...

Uh, CoroCoro pretty much confirmed otherwise. Sheik's in, no reason to debate anymore. See Brawl Central.
^Sheik is confirmed.^

And my post makes perfect sense. Zelda in Brawl represents Zelda AS A WHOLE, not any particular Zelda. This Zelda is modeled after the Twilight Princess Zelda, but she is not the Zelda from the game. She is a character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a non-canon game. Anything can happen. Of course, something like WW Link transforming into Wolf Link is totally stupid. They would make the character models alike. Wind Waker style =/= Twilight Princess style. Besides, Link can only turn into Wolf Link with the help of Midna or the Twilight Realm.
 

Chidosengan

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OK OK!! ALL TOP TIERS FROM MELEE WILL RETURN IN BRAWL, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO STAY TOP TIER THIS TIME AROUND!!!!
I really hope that helps you sleep at night.
 

vesperview

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Uh, I think you missed the point...



^Sheik is confirmed.^

And my post makes perfect sense. Zelda in Brawl represents Zelda AS A WHOLE, not any particular Zelda. This Zelda is modeled after the Twilight Princess Zelda, but she is not the Zelda from the game. She is a character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a non-canon game. Anything can happen. Of course, something like WW Link transforming into Wolf Link is totally stupid. They would make the character models alike. Wind Waker style =/= Twilight Princess style.
I didn't miss the post that said Sheik is confirmed, I'm merely pointing out how terrible your logic is, because the only reason they would completely ignore continuity in this case is because Sheik is a popular Melee character and if it is totally stupid for Wind Waker Link to turn into Wolf Link and for TP Link to put on the Oni Mask because that didn't happen in their games, then it is stupid for TP Zelda to turn into Sheik because it didn't happen in TP, yet again we go back to your first post:

Firstly, Super Smash Bros. games are not canon. Therefor, anything can happen and it won't have any affect whatsoever on the actual game story.
Yeah, by your logic anything could happen... even TP Link turning into Fierce Deity Link with an adaptated TP look or Wind Waker Link turning into Wolf Link with an adaptated Wind Waker look, just like Sheik.:rolleyes:

Besides, Link can only turn into Wolf Link with the help of Midna or the Twilight Realm.
Oh, so continuity does matter in that case, hypocrite much? :psycho:

Bottom Line: Sheik is just returning out of Melee popularity, that is the only logic you need.
 

Brasil

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45
To the OP, man, I was laughing my arse off as I was reading your post. You act like you know something about plot and story construction...but coming from an English major, you don't know jack. Nowhere in your post did you say anything worthwhile. lol. And your thoughts on Brawl's "story" needing to be consistent were laughable at best. If you were talking about literary works, then using internal logical consistency would be appropriate.

But here, don't be so trite, simplistic, misguided, and annoying. You refute the No Sheik argument with "Brawl is illogically inconsistent" then turn right around and use SSE ("Brawl is logically consistent") to somehow magically establish that Sheik will be in Brawl as Zelda's transformation, because of your own misguided and vapid notion that Brawl's storyline has to be logically consistent?

Do you even realize how massive of a contradiction your entire argument is? You're saying that Brawl is inconsistent when it suits your inane Quixotic quest, and then turn around and say that Brawl must be consistent, coincidentally also when it suits your inane Quixotic quest.

Come on, man. You really believe you can have this both ways? That Brawl can both be insanely random and chaotic, while at the same time adhering to some farcical internal consistency that's pretty much impossible since its story mode is almost guaranteed to turn out to be a fan-fic gone horribly, horribly, horribly wrong...

You've proven nothing but your own inexperience when it comes to literary analysis proper.

Sure Sheik's gonna be in Brawl in some form. But before you go ranting about how other people don't "get it" at least take a few frigging basic-level literature courses so you at least understand the concept you're flubbing around.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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Seriously. ANOTHER Sheik thread?

. . .

Seriously?

. . .

SERIOUSLY?

Christ, can we give this **** a rest until we see some real evidence one way or the other? This got old a while ago.

Oh, but for the record. . .

And my post makes perfect sense. Zelda in Brawl represents Zelda AS A WHOLE, not any particular Zelda. This Zelda is modeled after the Twilight Princess Zelda, but she is not the Zelda from the game. She is a character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a non-canon game. Anything can happen. Of course, something like WW Link transforming into Wolf Link is totally stupid. They would make the character models alike. Wind Waker style =/= Twilight Princess style. Besides, Link can only turn into Wolf Link with the help of Midna or the Twilight Realm.
This paragraph is hilarious. Either you're joking (and it's not funny) or you really don't realize how hypocritical what you're describing is. I envy your density.
 

Tyeforce

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zelda has new names for her spells. (just getting that out there) so they are different spells (just to correct you)
No, they are the same. You probably saw the Japanese names.

dont bother trying to argue with vesperview... he is one angry Mr Saturn fan =)
Yeah, I know. I've read his posts many times before.

To the OP, man, I was laughing my arse off as I was reading your post. You act like you know something about plot and story construction...but coming from an English major, you don't know jack. Nowhere in your post did you say anything worthwhile. lol. And your thoughts on Brawl's "story" needing to be consistent were laughable at best. If you were talking about literary works, then using internal logical consistency would be appropriate.

But here, don't be so trite, simplistic, misguided, and annoying. You refute the No Sheik argument with "Brawl is illogically inconsistent" then turn right around and use SSE ("Brawl is logically consistent") to somehow magically establish that Sheik will be in Brawl as Zelda's transformation, because of your own misguided and vapid notion that Brawl's storyline has to be logically consistent?

Do you even realize how massive of a contradiction your entire argument is? You're saying that Brawl is inconsistent when it suits your inane Quixotic quest, and then turn around and say that Brawl must be consistent, coincidentally also when it suits your inane Quixotic quest.

Come on, man. You really believe you can have this both ways? That Brawl can both be insanely random and chaotic, while at the same time adhering to some farcical internal consistency that's pretty much impossible since its story mode is almost guaranteed to turn out to be a fan-fic gone horribly, horribly, horribly wrong...

You've proven nothing but your own inexperience when it comes to literary analysis proper.

Sure Sheik's gonna be in Brawl in some form. But before you go ranting about how other people don't "get it" at least take a few frigging basic-level literature courses so you at least understand the concept you're flubbing around.
Okay, the point I'm trying to get across the you is that when it comes to character inclusion in Brawl, consistency doesn't matter (to some extent). What I mean by that is that the original game a character comes from doesn't determine how they will look in Brawl. But Adventure Mode's story should be consistent. Because of that, a separate Sheik should not be included because of Adventure Mode (due to the fact that all, or at lest most character will be in it).

I'm sure some of what I'm saying doesn't make sense, but it's late and I'm half-asleep. Yeah, that sounds like a lousy excuse but it's true. And you don't have to be so hard on me. You could point out mistakes without criticizing me in such a rude way. That's one reason why I don't like these forums. Everyone's mean to each other. (Well, mostly the high ranking members who think they're better than everyone else.) I'm just trying to contribute a little to these forums, and I'm still getting used to the place. If NSider was still up, I'd be there instead. (And I'm not an annoying idiotic n00b from there.) So can you please lighten up and be a little less negative?
 

Shadowbolt

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Sep 14, 2007
Messages
639
Vesper's right - if it wasn't for Melee, Shiek wouldn't be playable in Brawl. She isn't an important enough character to the whole series to keep her around. She was in one game, and likely will never return - they should have gotten rid of her now and been done with it; NOW, we're going to be stuck with various OTHER nonexistent forms of Shiek, in FUTURE Smash games.
 

vesperview

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Yeah, I know. I've read his posts many times before.
Ok, so now that you can't argue my last post you decide to throw indirects.:rolleyes:

when it comes to character inclusion in Brawl, consistency doesn't matter (to some extent).
And now that everyone has seen how hypocritical you are, you completely change the point you were trying to get across in the first post.

*facepalm*

EPIC FAIL!
 

Tyeforce

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Ok, so now that you can't argue my last post you decide to throw indirects.:rolleyes:
Because I don't want to argue, and I don't really care. Unlike you, I don't like being negative towards other people. I just want the arguing to stop. I put a lot of work into this thread, and even if it does suck, you don't have to tell me I fail. You fail at caring about what other people think.
 

vesperview

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Because I don't want to argue, and I don't really care. Unlike you, I don't like being negative towards other people. I just want the arguing to stop. I put a lot of work into this thread, and even if it does suck, you don't have to tell me I fail. You fail atcaring about what other people think.
You know I don't really don't give a **** either, you were the one who called me stupid even though you were the one who was wrong and how can someone fail at caring about what other people think? :rolleyes:
 

Tyeforce

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You know I don't really don't give a **** either, you were the one who called me stupid even though you were the one who was wrong and how can someone fail at caring about what other people think? :rolleyes:
I wasn't wrong. And if you don't care, then leave this thread. You're just making things worse. Don't you have other people to flame? You're inconsiderate of other people and you don't care about anything but yourself.
 

vesperview

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I wasn't wrong. And if you don't care, then leave this thread. You're just making things worse. Don't you have other people to flame? You're inconsiderate of other people and you don't care about anything but yourself.
No, I'm leaving because this thread = fail and debunked.

And I'm not really considerate about people on Smashboards or the internet for that matter and I doubt most people are.
 

Tyeforce

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No, I'm leaving because this thread = fail and debunked.

And I'm not really considerate about people on Smashboards or the internet for that matter and I doubt most people are.
How was anything debunked?! And I don't care how you act towards other people, but there are many people who treat people on the internets as actual people, not random nobodies.
 

Drake3

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@ Brasil:

Very impressive and sublimely true. There's alot of faulty cause and logic in the original post. Even though I believe Sheik is in the game, and destroys every trace of these characters being canon, I also know that the SSE will make no sense whatsoever. Or maybe the Ice Climbers and Metaknight were secretly penpals.
 

vesperview

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When was sheik debunked? jumping to conclusions... things just don't change :cool:
You didn't understood this thread at all, did you?

Thread debunked when the OP starts to contradict his own arguments, it's not that hard to understand and it had nothing to do with Sheik being confirmed, because apparently anything lacking continuity can happen in Smash but only regarding Sheik, anything else is "just too stupid".:rolleyes:

Seems like you're the one "jumping to conclusions" this time around. :cool::cool::cool::cool:
 

PwnyRide

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Want to know why this thread fails?

Because that's not our (as Zelda supporters) argument against Shiek. (Because i know it's aimed at us).

It's our way of pointing out it doesnt make sense in relation to Zelda's representation (and face it, it doesnt), but we didnt argue that it was the reason why Shiek should/would/could not still be apart of Zelda or in Brawl.

Our argument was that Zelda was not a full character on her own in Melee which held back her potential. Luthien described her as '1.75', Shiek being the 1.0, Zelda being the 0.75l which was the perfect definition of what Zelda was in Melee.

Nintendo should have realised their failure to implement this 'transformation' in Melee, and either removed Sheik from Zelda, Made Sheik a seperate character or nerf Shiek excessively, and make it another one of those useless down b's.

This thread also fails because the search function completely eluded you, and the fact that images you provided in your argument are irrelevant. Of course Sonic and Mario can not be in any way considered in this argument, because they do not share in any way the same timeline in relation to one another, and cannot be used in an argument about anything being 'cannon'.

You also have no substantial proof that a cell shaded Link is returning, or the fact that even Dr. Mario or Paper Mario are being included in the roster. If you're going to include pretty images, make sure they provide poof, because we're talking about Brawl here. No assumptions can be made. Say 'i told you so' AFTER the fact, NOT before.
 

The_Corax_King

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Obviously it makes sense for her to transform since she is still in...

I absolutely LOATHE the "TP Zelda can't transform" argument...

Just because she LOOKS like her TP form.... doesn't mean all past games are totally irrelevant... Brawl Zelda is a MIX of all her past forms. They aren't going to totally ignore anything that isn't completely and totally current...


No it wouldn't make sense for WW link to transform into a wolf... Because WW link and TP link are definitely seen as different characters... especially since one of them is young (we had both young link and link in melee)... and WW link was actually supposed to be a different Link... his background and such are totally different than any other zelda game...


Zelda has stayed essentially the same... yeah she didnt transform in TP... who cares!?

Mario doesn't have FLUDD in galaxy... yet he gets it in brawl...



ZELDA AS A WHOLE IS A BRAWL CHARACTER...

NOT JUST TP ZELDA!
 

PwnyRide

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Obviously it makes sense for her to transform since she is still in...

I absolutely LOATHE the "TP Zelda can't transform" argument...

Just because she LOOKS like her TP form.... doesn't mean all past games are totally irrelevant... Brawl Zelda is a MIX of all her past forms. They aren't going to totally ignore anything that isn't completely and totally current...


No it wouldn't make sense for WW link to transform into a wolf... Because WW link and TP link are definitely seen as different characters... especially since one of them is young (we had both young link and link in melee)... and WW link was actually supposed to be a different Link... his background and such are totally different than any other zelda game...


Zelda has stayed essentially the same... yeah she didnt transform in TP... who cares!?

Mario doesn't have FLUDD in galaxy... yet he gets it in brawl...



ZELDA AS A WHOLE IS A BRAWL CHARACTER...

NOT JUST TP ZELDA!
It's gotta make you wonder though, if the Link in each game (bar the OoT and Majoras Mask duo) is different, wouldnt the Zelda in each game be different? If not she must be hundresds of years old :laugh:

Not arguing here, just wondering :confused:
 

vesperview

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Obviously it makes sense for her to transform since she is still in...

I absolutely LOATHE the "TP Zelda can't transform" argument...

Just because she LOOKS like her TP form.... doesn't mean all past games are totally irrelevant... Brawl Zelda is a MIX of all her past forms. They aren't going to totally ignore anything that isn't completely and totally current...


No it wouldn't make sense for WW link to transform into a wolf... Because WW link and TP link are definitely seen as different characters... especially since one of them is young (we had both young link and link in melee)... and WW link was actually supposed to be a different Link... his background and such are totally different than any other zelda game...


Zelda has stayed essentially the same... yeah she didnt transform in TP... who cares!?

Mario doesn't have FLUDD in galaxy... yet he gets it in brawl...



ZELDA AS A WHOLE IS A BRAWL CHARACTER...

NOT JUST TP ZELDA!
Comparing Zelda to Mario is ridiculous, Zelda from TP is not the same Zelda from OoT, just like Wind Waker Link is not the same as TP Link, Mario IS the same character in every game, so yeah, TP Zelda turning into Sheik makes as much sense as WW Link turning into Wolf Link please, just accept the fact that Sheik is in Brawl just because of her Melee status and Brawl Zelda is not a combination of all Zelda's even her moveset is renamed to fit Twilight Princess, Sheik is the only thing preventing Zelda from not being completely TP based.
 

The_Corax_King

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Comparing Zelda to Mario is ridiculous, Zelda from TP is not the same Zelda from OoT, just like Wind Waker Link is not the same as TP Link, Mario IS the same character in every game, so yeah, TP Zelda turning into Sheik makes as much sense as WW Link turning into Wolf Link please, just accept the fact that Sheik is in Brawl just because of her Melee status and Brawl Zelda is not a combination of all Zelda's even her moveset is renamed to fit Twilight Princess, Sheik is the only thing preventing Zelda from not being completely TP based.

you sheik-haters just can't deal with the fact that she's in so you argue until you die...

Saying her moveset that was COMPLETELY fabricated for melee and is STILL in brawl was TPified is ridiculous... so what if they change the name?

How can mario be the same character if zelda isn't?? Zelda has absolutely no personality so you can't tell a difference no matter what game she is in...

WW Link on the other hand was a completely different CHARACTER... he had a sister... a different background... everything... plus he is YOUNGER... this is why WW link is a possible character in brawl...

Under your logic TP zelda and OoT zelda could be potentially different characters in brawl just like Link and Young LInk were in melee...


NO she wasn't put in just because she was good in melee... this sentence takes the credibility out of your entire argument... kirby and bowser sucked in melee... then they should be cut under this logic...

a character's tier status has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with brawl inclusion... NOTHING... especially since the game is supposed to be far more balanced than the other two smashes...



Keep arguing sheik haters... she's in... and there's NOTHING you can do.,..
 

vesperview

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you sheik-haters just can't deal with the fact that she's in so you argue until you die...

Saying her moveset that was COMPLETELY fabricated for melee and is STILL in brawl was TPified is ridiculous... so what if they change the name?

How can mario be the same character if zelda isn't?? Zelda has absolutely no personality so you can't tell a difference no matter what game she is in...

WW Link on the other hand was a completely different CHARACTER... he had a sister... a different background... everything... plus he is YOUNGER... this is why WW link is a possible character in brawl...

Under your logic TP zelda and OoT zelda could be potentially different characters in brawl just like Link and Young LInk were in melee...


NO she wasn't put in just because she was good in melee... this sentence takes the credibility out of your entire argument... kirby and bowser sucked in melee... then they should be cut under this logic...

a character's tier status has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with brawl inclusion... NOTHING... especially since the game is supposed to be far more balanced than the other two smashes...



Keep arguing sheik haters... she's in... and there's NOTHING you can do.,..
This is just ********, first you compare Mario to Zelda and now you're comparing Kirby and Bowser to Sheik, tell me how many games has Sheik been in after Ocarina Of Time? How is personality a decisive factor in whether a character is the same in each game or it isn't, even after Nintendo has stated that they are not the same characters in each new game? I'm not even arguing if she is in or not, but please, try to put an intelligent argument on the table next time you want to try to sound smart, it's pretty simple, if Sheik wouldn't have been in Melee, she wouldn't be in Brawl, because she is one timer, non recurring character, who the hell is talking about tiers? I'm not talking about her overpowered n00b friendly moveset, I'm talking about her lack of importance to the Zelda series or what you're gonna tell me Sheik is important to the Zelda series too? She's only in Brawl because she was a popular Melee character and don't even try to argue that and yes her moveset is renamed after TP, like it or not.
 
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