The official falcon's metagame development discussion(s)

[Zeallyx]

We should have a thread where we can post ideas on how to devlop falcon's metagame.
We are all working on this, and I know this, but even if this topic helps a little bit, it has served it's porpose.

To start off, I advise everyone to look more into the falcon kick>ledge cancel combo's/mindgames.

For example, when the opponent is hanging on the edge, and you falcon kick towards them, they expect to be able to punish you, but if you lege cancel this falcon kick, you can punish almost anything they do to try to outsmart you.

(all knee's mentioned in the next parts of this OP are SH>Knee's, and done in a way so you don't endure landing lag, or else these combo's are impoosible due to the knee's landing lag)
Also, we should look into the flubbed knee>trip combo's.'combo's'
face124 started this off really nicely, with flubbed knee>opponent trips>Utilt/Dtilt>Ftilt

Like Wogrim said, maybe a DACUS or a hyphen smash can work after a flubbed knee>opponent trips.
as far as I tested a Usmash works quite well after flubbed knee>opponent trips. It does quite some damage

Maybe(just thinking out loud) a Dsmash is even a possibility.
as far as I tested, Dsmash also works quite well after a flubbed knee>opponent trips. :D

Now that I think about it, flubbed knee>opponent trips>SH Dair might work
as far as I tested, Dair also works well after a flubbed knee>opponent trips. This could even combo into a sweet knee, another arial, a jab(>jab>grab) or (some) tilts
Test result (tested by __V): SH flubbed knee>opponent trips>Dair>Knee works. useless on small(er) characters, but no one (on wich it does connect, so atall(er) character) has gotten out of it yet

or: flubbed Knee>opponent trips>SHFF Nair>Jab>jab>grab could work
or:flubbed Knee>opponent trips>RAR SHFF Bair could work
as far as I tested the RAR SHFF Bair after the flubbed knee>opponent trips also works, but it's very hard to pull off and there are more rewarding options than a Bair, wich are also easier to pull off (and one may be able to roll away just in time)
a better option for the Bair variation is to simply SH over the tripped opponent and then Bair.
or:flubbed Knee>opponent>trips>FC as far as I tested, this works (maybe we can even SH flubbed Knee>opponent trips>FC>LC>arial/special, it will still be very situational, but an option perhaps :D)
or:flubbed Knee>opponent trips>raptor boost as far as I tested, this works

also, everyone who hasn't seen it, please look in this topic:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208334
I'm not sure how many frames faster FF the SH Knee right after the part that would create landing lag is, but every frame counts imo



We can also look into the grab release on all/some characters even more, who knows what could come out of it.
some threads everyone should check out about the grab release:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208464

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208500
this could work on even more characters

These are just some ideas.
Please post your ideas etc. here

 

[Tenki]

Like Wogrim said, maybe a DACUS or a hyphen smash can work after a flubbed knee>opponent trips.

I was under the impression that Falcon's DACUS doesn't really go anywhere. Unless you mean using it to travel a shorter distance than his running U-smash

 

[Wogrim]

From the other thread:

[post]5969900[/post]

I never mentioned dash attack cancel, and already suggested DAir.

If any of those SH FF ones work it would be worth trying a second knee. Maybe even autocancelled on fat characters.

 

[Zeallyx]

From the other thread:

[post]5969900[/post]

I never mentioned dash attack cancel, and already suggested DAir.

If any of those SH FF ones work it would be worth trying a second knee. Maybe even autocancelled on fat characters.

ah I see
I thought you were the one who came up with the DACUS

and yes DACUS would be for a shorter distance
although it seems one doesn't even need to DACUS or hyphen smash, as the opponent seems to be close enough to you after they trip to just Usmash in place

 

[Zeallyx]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5994404#post5994404

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208464

 

[Player-3]

TKONTK why dont you put those threads on here or something, create less spam..

i mean its not bad but if you start finding tons of characters...........

 

[Zeallyx]

TKONTK why dont you put those threads on here or something, create less spam..

i mean its not bad but if you start finding tons of characters...........

yes, that was I was planning to do
thanks

 

[YesISpeakChinese]

the DACUS might be more appropriate depending on how far the knee trip sends them

 

[Zeallyx]

the DACUS might be more appropriate depending on how far the knee trip sends them

yes, you are right
but most of the time the opponent will be close enough to you after they trip, that a simple Usmash will connect (without moving, so no DACUS or hyphen smash)

 

[Darxmarth23]

f-knee to dair....i should test that out.

This thread is win.

 

[Zeallyx]

f-knee to dair....i should test that out.

This thread is win.

yes, please do test it if you can test it on a human player and post the results here, it would be very helpfull (and you'll receive full credit for testing offcourse)

 

[Player-3]

f-knee to dair to knee?

do i sense the Mindgamecombo?

noone expects f-knee to do anything...

MINDGAMES!

 

[Zeallyx]

grab release>Uair also seems to be inescapable on ivysaur and charizard. testing on a human player is required to make sure it is inescapable though, but it's possible it works

also, it may be possible to chaingrab some characters out of a grab release, as some have a longer landing animation, or simply a longer 'escape' enimation that is long enough to regrab then. I'm not sure offcourse, but this may be possible on some characters (maybe ganondorf?)
this form of chaingrab is already known to work on squirtle, so maybe it is inexcapable for other character too.
another thing worth looking into imo

 

[__V]

Flubbed knee>Dair>Knee sort of works... useless on short characters, though.

I'm not entirely sure if it's inescapable, but nobody's gotten out of it yet.

 

[Player-3]

Flubbed knee>Dair>Knee sort of works... useless on short characters, though.

I'm not entirely sure if it's inescapable, but nobody's gotten out of it yet.

You are my hero.

 

[Zeallyx]

Flubbed knee>Dair>Knee sort of works... useless on short characters, though.

I'm not entirely sure if it's inescapable, but nobody's gotten out of it yet.

great news, thanks for testing it I'll edit the info into the OP

also, here's the thread about grab releases:
(please contribute as much as you can to the grab releases thread!)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208534

 

[Player-3]

id contribute but i dont have a wii... =[

 

[Zeallyx]

id contribute but i dont have a wii... =[

it's ok, just contribute what you can contribute (wich does not require a wii)

also, potential new combo?
AC Dair>Arial falcon kick. thread here> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208702

and I have done quite some testing on the grab release, and edited my findings into the OP of the grab release possibilities thread (said thread is found here:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208534)

Imo we should look into a possible Chain grab on DK through grab release (when DK escapes through the air) it seems DK doesn't land before falcon can regrab him. I'm not certain though, testing on a human player is still required

there are more things we should look into imo, so please take a look at the grab release possibilities thread

 

[Darxmarth23]

yes, please do test it if you can test it on a human player and post the results here, it would be very helpfull (and you'll receive full credit for testing offcourse)

Yes man. I will.

just you'll have to wait 6 weeks for my left hand to heal from an accident.

sorry.

 

[Zeallyx]

Yes man. I will.

just you'll have to wait 6 weeks for my left hand to heal from an accident.

sorry.

Oh yes sorry :O you already told me that, I should've remembered >.<
it's ok man, just give your hand the rest it needs
thanks for your interest in all of this though :D

and there's no need for you to apologise man

 

[Darxmarth23]

Oh yes sorry :O you already told me that, I should've remembered >.<
it's ok man, just give your hand the rest it needs
thanks for your interest in all of this though :D

and there's no need for you to apologise man

Its all good.

Dude, you are like the nicest dude on SWF.

I come from the marth boards and if you know them you know that they can FLAME.

anyways, its nice to know that f-knee to Dair wort of works.

If this works on the low tier characters then i guess we could surpass them on the tier list easy.

 

[Zeallyx]

Its all good.

Dude, you are like the nicest dude on SWF.

I come from the marth boards and if you know them you know that they can FLAME.

anyways, its nice to know that f-knee to Dair wort of works.

If this works on the low tier characters then i guess we could surpass them on the tier list easy.

thanks :D
and yes, I know, the marth board folks aren't always nice >.<

and yes, that combo could really help, as it seems to work on taller characters, and as ganondorf is tall, we might finally surpass him :D

I don't think so though, as the flubbed knee stops tripping after 35% or so, so comboing it into a sweet knee after the Dair this way (wich seems the best option after the flub knee>opponent trips>Dair imo) isn't really a kill combo..(maybe if done at the edge of the stage+edgehog it can kill :D) but still, it's kinda situational, but nonetheless awesome it works :D

Edit: but I guess flubbed knee>opponent trips>Dair>sweet knee also works on samus and link, so we might rise a little on the tier list, or at least we'll be a little more feared

 

[B%B]

You guys should test out all this metagameyness on My Sonic/Yoshi.

 

[Zeallyx]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209371 (thread about potential new combo on ganondorf using the 'new way of AC knee' wich is FF the knee at the right time and still not endure landing lag but be able to move again sooner than a normal AC)

 

[Ilucamy]

You can control the length of your hyphen-usmash by doing a sort of stutter step. Just dash back, then hyphen u-smash forward really fast, like a dashdance. Depending on how long you delayed it, you can totally just choose where you want your hyphen u-smash to land.

I don't test much with Falcon, but I think you should see how a backwards DI'd knee works. I know for a fact that the very back of Falcon will NEVER sweetspot the knee, so you may have a better chance of tripping them by maybe doing an RAR knee which will send you in different directions.

Ionno, just a thought I guess. I'm not too interested in Falcon's metagame, I just play him by instinct.

 

[Mit]

I'm hoping we can just throw out random ideas here. This is the kind of thing this board needs in order to cut down on the large amount of threads discussing small things that may turn out to be nothing.

One thing I've been thinking of trying to do more often is when your opponent is recovering and is able to attack you (say, Link's fair or Snake's nair/double jump dair/fair/bair/uair, all of his moves really @_@), if you were to air dodge past them, how quickly could you double jump backwards and say, dair or bair them?

Falcon moves pretty quick in the air, and this could make for a great mindgame if you could trick your opponent into doing a move that takes a while in the air (this wouldn't work on say, Toon Links fair because he'd just immediately react to you behind him with a bair), airdodging past him, and double jumping back and replying with a dair to finish, or a bair to further damage him and knock him around some more.

Again, this may turn out to be situational, not work well, or already known, but I think it'd be very helpful for characters who have powerful air moves that can stop your edgeguarding tactics (usually with disjointed hitboxes [swords, Snake's legs]).

 

[Wogrim]

I'm hoping we can just throw out random ideas here. This is the kind of thing this board needs in order to cut down on the large amount of threads discussing small things that may turn out to be nothing.

One thing I've been thinking of trying to do more often is when your opponent is recovering and is able to attack you (say, Link's fair or Snake's nair/double jump dair/fair/bair/uair, all of his moves really @_@), if you were to air dodge past them, how quickly could you double jump backwards and say, dair or bair them?

Falcon moves pretty quick in the air, and this could make for a great mindgame if you could trick your opponent into doing a move that takes a while in the air (this wouldn't work on say, Toon Links fair because he'd just immediately react to you behind him with a bair), airdodging past him, and double jumping back and replying with a dair to finish, or a bair to further damage him and knock him around some more.

Again, this may turn out to be situational, not work well, or already known, but I think it'd be very helpful for characters who have powerful air moves that can stop your edgeguarding tactics (usually with disjointed hitboxes [swords, Snake's legs]).

DAir most likely too slow or won't be offstage by the time you hit them. Some people already do this with BAir/Falcon Dive, although you may as well try RARing it so that it's a Knee instead. I've been thinking of doing something similar for getting past Ike's up-B for a stage spike.

 

[Mit]

Yeah, I think it'd be useful for characters like Ike and Snake. Even when Ike is falling back to the stage (from high and far from the stage), his fair and nair will stop any attack you try to hit him with on his way back (or his dair, too). They're also pretty slow, so if you air dodged past you could probably come back with a bair or something from behind.

I would imagine dair would be situational, but I could see it happening if you opponent was far enough out, and the move they were using made them drop a decent amount and has a lot of lag (say, Snake's nair).

 

[Ayaz18]

You guys should test out all this metagameyness on My Sonic/Yoshi.

I would, but wi-fi is for scrubs

no offense, but that's how it is..................it get's you into too many bad habbits

 

[Tenki]

I would, but wi-fi is for scrubs

no offense, but that's how it is..................it get's you into too many bad habbits

;o of course it does, if you're not selfaware of it.

It's not too bad as long as you're aware when both you and your opponents should or shouldn't have gotten hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LOIOerDsRA

lol watching this video, I realized that a majority of ShadoFiend's kills were lag-related, whereas Ally's featured moments are almost completely mindgamed :[

 

[Ayaz18]

No man........................Ally is just the ****

nothing less and nothing more, he is way good, in my opinion he's probably better than M2K

watching this guy live is just incredible

 

[Zeallyx]

might wanna check this out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209745

 

[Tenki]

:<

well, anyway, I want to see more grab ownage like the one in Ally's video.

Also, this instant pivot grab thing... could be useful for Falcon (?).

I tried to bring up pivot grabs before because I noticed just how amazingly long-range his pivot grab is.
if it can be done out of a walk, you might be able to pull something weird off :/

 

[Zeallyx]

:<

well, anyway, I want to see more grab ownage like the one in Ally's video.

Also, this instant pivot grab thing... could be useful for Falcon (?).

I tried to bring up pivot grabs before because I noticed just how amazingly long-range his pivot grab is.
if it can be done out of a walk, you might be able to pull something weird off :/

yes, if you dash dance>instant pivot grab (so the grab is used while facing the way you feced before the dash dance) it could increase falcon's grab range? not sure though

but yes, pivot grabs in general are good to keep in mind (add to your falcon game)

 

[TheFast]

Cant Wario be grab released into a knee? Just thought i would come here and ask because I can't remember.

 

[Zeallyx]

Cant Wario be grab released into a knee? Just thought i would come here and ask because I can't remember.

yes wario can be grab release>sweet knee'd without him beeing able to escape

 

[Player-3]

Cant Wario be grab released into a knee? Just thought i would come here and ask because I can't remember.

yes we he can!

 

[Player-3]

Saw this on AiB-
(from BlueBirdE
I was happening to be playing on pokemon stadium, i was on the ledge wen i side bed back on stage i hit my opponent but to my suprise i hit with sweet knee out of nowhere, somehow the side b got canceled, this was wen the stage is normal too, idk if this is old but i thought it ws interest and i did it again but instead of knee i pressed up b and went to falcon dive just after hittin the opponent shield with side b, possible new find?
Translation:
You were able to do cancel the lag on a Raptor Boost used in the air, and go directly into a Knee

dunno how or if its true, says it not a troll post

 

[Zeallyx]

Saw this on AiB-
(from BlueBirdE
I was happening to be playing on pokemon stadium, i was on the ledge wen i side bed back on stage i hit my opponent but to my suprise i hit with sweet knee out of nowhere, somehow the side b got canceled, this was wen the stage is normal too, idk if this is old but i thought it ws interest and i did it again but instead of knee i pressed up b and went to falcon dive just after hittin the opponent shield with side b, possible new find?
Translation:
You were able to do cancel the lag on a Raptor Boost used in the air, and go directly into a Knee

dunno how or if its true, says it not a troll post

if this is possible, it would be awesome, but I don't think this is possible
I'll test it when I have time

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Captain falcon can DACUS? I thought you just run and use up-smash for him. And what do you guys do when faced with a metaknight? This has stuff to do with falcons metagame because metaknight is like 30% of the metagame and its good to discuss countering him.