Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[W.A.C.]

[LINK]

So the website Smash Hub launched today. If we want to increase interest in Meta Knight as a character to show he is not a low tier joke like many players feel he is, this site could be a great opportunity to show that character's potential.

 

[Oblivion129]

I think your problem was that you spaced way too far from her and when you wanted to approach you dashed directly towards her, giving Rosalina enough time to react. You started your dashes and Tornados way too far from her and gave her time to just react.
If you're closer to her (just out of her jab range) she wouldn't be able to react so fast against your approaches, like DA and rolling behind her.
You also gave her a lot of stage control. You don't need to roll away from her when she's not threatening you. That leads to her getting stage control and forcing you to the ledge.

I recommend using more walks and empty jumps to stop you from dashing in from so far away. When you're close to her, don't be afraid to attack. Several times you got in on her and just rolled away. Get in on her.
I'd like to point out 7:57 on the video. You did well there until you dashed away from her at 8:08 and gave her the time and space to throw out her jab. Sure you can dash away, but at least space yourself so the jab doesn't hit you, then you could punish it easier. Be at a distance where you can bait her out.

(All this about spacing and stage control applies against any character)

 

[Ulevo]

I fail to care. If people are not interested in Meta Knight, that is okay. I will make a note to correct people if they misrepresent him, but people will acknowledge him when they see other top characters get bodied by Meta Knight in tournament once our players improve. Increasing interest will not really improve the boards, either. I feel at this point we have covered over 90% of what Meta Knight has to offer, and the majority of what we have left to talk about as a community is match up oriented.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Shuffle just finished up.

I ended up with 17th out of 150 something. Katakiri got 5th. I finally overcame my Fox and Olimar problems.... But Rosalina got me again. After watching Katakiri beat the Rosa who beat me, I have a better understanding of what to do.

But yeah holy ****, I totally evolved this weekend. I've never played so well. And I know how to keep improving. This regional was important for me. I learned soooo many things. Katakiri did a great job this weekend too.

 

[Katakiri]

I'm happy with how I played overall but not how I lost. I lost to two Luigi, LOE1 & Hyper Crasher. I played the MUs just fine and can keep-up or even lead with damage but Luigi's Down-Throw > Down-B is the wall I need to overcome. Neither one managed to get a KO that wasn't Down-Throw > Down-B and it honestly feels like I'm fighting a better version of Ness; get grabbed at 90%, that's your stock except unlike Ness it's anywhere on the stage, not just near the ledge. I just have to play smarter against them. If I can avoid grab, I can win because Luigi has NO other way of KOing MK.

I think that's my favorite part about playing MK at high-level. MK's jumps ensure he doesn't get KO'd by silly stuff like Mario/Luigi Up-Smash and Sheik's chains into Bouncing Fish. With a few exceptions like Luigi, people have to really be thinking and predicting to KO me. Multiple jumps is such a huge boon to any character that I think I might only play characters with that trait or something similar that prolongs my air-time.

I can't complain about 5th when it was only M2K, Ally, Zinoto, and LOE1 above me. But even in the stocks that I out-played LOE1, not being able to clutch-out the kills before he grabbed me was disheartening. Try, try again.

 

[W.A.C.]

I don't know who is LOE1, but M2K and Ally are pretty much legendary players, and Zinoto is one of the best Brawl Diddy Kong mains out there. He's credited as the player who made banana locking a thing. Overall, it sounds like you played extremely well.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

LOE1 originated in Brawl. WiFi Warrior gone top level player. Translated that skill into Smash 4. That kid is a product of hard work. He's from my neck of the woods.

Also I just have to say how stoked I am to main/rep this character!! I really feel like I can do anything with MK!!

 

[W.A.C.]

As a character, Meta Knight is fortunate that all of his moves are useful and that none of his matchups are nearly unwinnable like some characters who have to deal with 80-20 or 90-10 matchups. Really shows how viable he is as a character, especially since the best character in the game (Shiek) doesn't have a massive matchup advantage over him. She bodies half the roster badly. Pretty much the only character in the game without any bad matchups and has better frame data than nearly anyone else. Really sucks Meta Knight has so much lag to his forward, back, and neutral air in this game. If his forward air was much better, it would help out against his worst matchups so much.

 

[warionumbah2]

I will make a note to correct people if they misrepresent him

Sadly you get this ALOT on this site surprisingly. From 90% of CB's all the way to CCI thread.

I can't complain about 5th when it was only M2K, Ally, Zinoto, and LOE1 above me..

 

[M@v]

Why do more people not use this character? So much better than he's given credit for. P.S. @ Katakiri ggs, you're mine next time . If it wasn't for you losing to Hyper Crasher I think I would of placed top 10 at Shuffle instead of 17th, especially since the other person I lost to tied you for fifth. Not to mention one of the guys in 9th was someone I beat in my pool <.<

 

[Sol0ke]

I'm pretty sure it's because newcomers and that MK isn't broken this time around

You know, same old, same old

 

[ぱみゅ]

Placed 9th at a very tacked local tournament.
I used MK for almost every game except against a Donkey Kong as I have no idea how MK is supposed to get past his stuff.

At winners I had a huge advantage game 3, like 20-80 on damage, like 1:30 left on the clock, and then I SD'd.
Then won a couple times in losers' but lost to a Lucina. That matchup is a bit too scary, you can't really rush anything or she'll punish quite hard and baiting is a bit difficult to do against an opponent that always wants to stay safe, plus she doesn't fear trades like Marth does.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

On a side note, I found out that Luigi/MK is a hilarious team. I was playing with Hyper Crasher at Shuffle and we pretty well. Came really close both games to taking a game from M2K/Ally so that was fun. Mach Tornado to Luigi Cyclone killed M2K at like 60 lol. We also got some kills from Cyclone to Shuttle Loop. The team has the potential for super early kills that are all position based. It's not the most fluid team but when we were on point we were doing some crazy things. We're not top level by any means and we've only teamed together once before so it was nice to see us crank out those jank combos on the fly like that. Fun times <3

 

[warionumbah2]

Well i did say Luigi is a good teammate like 7 or so pages ago. Sadly Luigi is slow as **** so he can't back us up in a pinch like we can for them.

Mario has better mobility and FLUDD jank.

Luigi has raw power and vertical kill moves that can aid MK.

Hopefully they go on youtube soon, i like watching MK in dubz.

 

[Fye]

Well, I got 5th again at Shockwave. Managed to beat Aerolink off-stream, but ended up losing to ROB right after. The ROB set is probably incredibly boring to watch as it's just a big stallfest, but it's also the only match I had on stream. After losing to ROB, I faced the Wind God DK, and lost pretty badly. I was salty throughout the entire match because I found it hard to approach and most of my deaths came from being launched at weird angles because of Cyclone. The tourney went alright, but I'm not happy and feel ****ty about it.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Here's a post I made from the Falco boards about a post on the Samus boards (yay for confusing sentences):

---

So I've noticed this but never have done it on purpose... there is a tiny window in ledge trumping where, if you ledge trump at almost the exact same time as the enemy, they will still hang onto the ledge for a bit before being kicked off. This means the amount of frames you can act off the edge before he can act after getting kicked off is even larger. I think Falco can get a guaranteed ledge drop jump b-air sweetspotted after this because the enemy won't be able to jump or airdodge. If you ever notice this "delay" with a perfect ledge trump, go for the bair, I say. Otherwise, I think getting on stage and preparing the dsmash, fsmash, or dair on their non-invincible ledge grab (or even on stage recovery landing!!!) is the safer, smarter choice.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ledg...guaranteed-reconsidered.403952/#post-19278356

This demonstrates the concept I am describing, except for Samus and her Charge Shot instead of Falco and his b-air.

---

Could possibly apply to Meta Knight and his b-air.

What are Meta Knight's options for hitting non-invincible ledge grabs? I always had trouble hitting someone who wasn't Charizard or something with MK's stubby arms lol, dtilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash all seemed to miss. For instance, is Sheik just impossible to hit?

 

[warionumbah2]

You need to space F-Smash for like 2 or 3 characters. Here's a thread Ulevo made: http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-ledge-coverage-chart.402415/

Basically be really close to the ledge and it'll hit, ledge trump to bair works reliably on most of the cast its just that the timing is strict.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I've got a local event today so wish me luck. Also I think I might end up importing a lot of information we've collected from the threads and dump it into my website for quick access/not having to travel around the forum to find things later. I also need to update my website/blog and log my experiences from Shuffle. My site has been live for a few but I wanted to add some more content to it (upload more vids especially). I'm just happy it up now lol.

 

[ItoI6]

you dash shield for literally all your movement fye you need to walk more and do random dash backwards to foxtrot-dash dance forward at them.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ This helped my neutral game quite a bit.

Also @ Fye , I was watching your set vs Oracle yesterday. Seemed like you were outplaying him but just died to jank you didn't know about (that wheelie stomp is stupid strong) and of course that SD. Your MK is coming along nicely though man.

 

[warionumbah2]

>Walk back and forth
>Walk then foxtrot
>Walk into shield and foxtrot away
>Foxtrot back and forth
>Dash at them to the point where you're in range for a DA or Dash grab, shield then WALK AWAY.
>Walk into Ftilt
>Dash towards them into shield, then DA after shield drop(really effective after walking out of shield)

MKs ground game is top tier(indisputable fact), with the ground tools at his disposal we should use them to bait people hard. I'm surprised you placed high in a custom tourney after all the negative vibes MK gets in customs...

Also MK kind of ****s on most of the cast via camping, like hot damn. I play against a good Wario myself and the bike makes F-Smash linger for years omg. Pretty even MU still annoying.

 

[Fye]

I definitely need to work on my ground game. It's a vital part in matchups where you can't approach regularly. I'm used to fighting a lot of these customs, and there isn't many people here who abuse stuff here unlike Katakiri's area. Palutena, Pikachu, and DK were the only characters that relied on customs. I'm used to fighting Palutena back in Missouri but Pikachu gets very annoying, especially the paralyzing jolt move.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Took 5th out of 61 today. Made money at least. Lost to two good players. Ksev (Fox) and Coco. (Olimar) Both Game 3. Both sets were recorded so I'll be wanting critique on those.

I beat a Pikachu, Fox and ZSS very easily in Winner's. Won convincingly against a Diddy who I've got back and forth with (4-2 my favor lifetime record) and had a close set with Luigi who's beaten some of our top players.

I definitely could have won against both players but got flustered against Ksev and just couldn't figure out how to get in on Olimar after he started running away hardcore. You'll see the sets. I do feel like I'm getting better each event though <3. Inexperience is what's getting me though. Oh well, that's why I go to these.

Result thread:http://smashboards.com/threads/project-playhem-weeklies-13-livonia-mi-3-28-15.404392/

 

[Sol0ke]

Nothing related to competitive discussion but curious: does MK fare well in free for alls?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Nothing related to competitive discussion but curious: does MK fare well in free for alls?

Yo. This is the most competitive of discussions

And from my experience yes. He's great at avoiding dumb things and it's not very difficult for him to steal kills/land follow ups from others' setups. Plus who doesn't love to catch 2 or more people in your Tornado.

 

[warionumbah2]

If we get a character board MU invite i won't participate, you get literally no discussion and too many false info on MK is spat out(@ Ulevo you would be working overtime correcting people).

MU scores when added up are based on how many character mains vote despite poor explanations and such. My main point is the lack of discussion from people who actually faced a good MK offline(FG isn't a good representation of MK nor is anthers ladder due to lag).

Not naming character boards but its funny af.

Nothing related to competitive discussion but curious: does MK fare well in free for alls?

He's insane, tornado lasts forever when you catch 2 or 3 people in and up throw is Godlike. F-smashing during the chaos is cool too.

And from my experience yes. He's great at avoiding dumb things

So true lol, camp all day no ones touching MK on hyrule temple. xD

I'll probably make a list of characters MK can camp effectively on different stages i've played(or attempt to camp on).

Congrats on that tourney man!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ Thanks yo!. I just posted the sets that I lost in the video thread.

 

[Ulevo]

I mean, what you really want to do is get input from top level players that might frequent the specific board. The stuff Mister Eric posted on the R.O.B. match up was valuable, as an example. It is also worth it to gather tidbits of info. You do not really need to worry about the overall consensus so much as you do the details.

Congrats to everyone doing well.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Yeah, honestly win ratios are something you shouldn't even bother with except as some fun food for thought. If you obsess over them, they just make you play worse. "Oh shucks, well Sheik is labeled 30:70 cause SWF said so, I was supposed to lose this!" You never want to have that mentality... unless you're Brawl Ganondorf or something lmao.

That's how it generally goes. Just keep an eye out for new material and tips, try it yourself and see not just whether, but also WHY it works or doesn't work. Try and apply things for yourself... everything here is just a guideline and, in the end, you're still trying to outplay the player, not the character. Everyone is beatable unless they play frame perfect.

Lil Mac has it worse than MK imo. People constantly **** on his viability, but most characters don't truly bop him as hard as people think they do. MK's perceived lack of viability comes from people trying him like Brawl MK and uber failing. Lil Mac's perceived lack of viability comes from people FG'ing Macs who don't know **** about mixing recoveries and abuse the stupidity of Lil Mac's up B or side B priority and hitboxes or how to play the neutral whatsoever. Maybe he does autolose to Sheik, sure, but I think he kinda bops half the cast Akuma-style.

 

[warionumbah2]

Im not obsessed just something I noticed and decided to bring up, that's the problem you'll get no good material or tips from other boards because they have 0 knowledge on high level MKs (we can easily pick out a good MK from a high level MK through simple description they write up).

I never underestimate a character, I categories every MU in my head which determines my play style(sometimes I forget so I lose).

I guess I can ignore anyone I don't deem high level or top player but then that leaves a small amount of posts to actually care about and overall 90% of CB's. Not many top players feequent the boards.

I do not care about the overall ratio since its flawed as hell, tactics and advice are what I look for. Advice such as 'dont get grabbed' or 'careful about *insert obvious move that the character is known for*' are not only common but outright useless. I'll stick with MU discussion here cuz I get solid advice and tactics from my fellow bats as you all understand MK as much or more than me.

Edit: MKs item toss cancel covers so much distance God damn. I forgot this even existed. The slide is so huge that you can whiff a dash grab, Tornado seems to come out faster since the slide is like PP and D-Smash keeps the slide. You can use grab too but only the standing one since as i said before dash grab whiffs.

Its useful against (Only if he throws a MB)(most of the time you will throw it normally for combo's)(His whole playstyle revolves around bombs lol)(Greta way to approach with nado since he may hold shield more often)(if you get a weak turnip just use the item cancel)(that odd chance a piece of wood falls from the tree).

Very useful against since you can 100% bet they'll use their items.

 

[ItoI6]

double eliminated 6wx in a very close tournament today. the streamers equipment broke so no videos.

last game of grand finals set 2 i was at 120% he was at 10% last stock, and got the dash attack-upairx3-upb and killed him off the top. he threw his controller on the table because of the salt, i had the pop off. never give up yo

also won doubles with an old brawl wolf player named isheymoto who plays fox, we had a nice mk/fox team going and beat 6wx in grand who partnered with another sonic player.

http://challonge.com/MADE8Singles/standings

http://challonge.com/MADE8Doubles/standings

 

[W.A.C.]

Oh what a shame that wasn't recorded...congratulations on the win. Would've been amazing to watch that.

 

[warionumbah2]

Only 3 uairs? Against Sonic using custom jank? With default MK? I'm confused...

"never give up" sounds cheesy but its definitely a thing for MK. His comeback factor is pretty huge in this game.

 

[PUK]

Im not obsessed just something I noticed and decided to bring up, that's the problem you'll get no good material or tips from other boards because they have 0 knowledge on high level MKs (we can easily pick out a good MK from a high level MK through simple description they write up).

I never underestimate a character, I categories every MU in my head which determines my play style(sometimes I forget so I lose).

I guess I can ignore anyone I don't deem high level or top player but then that leaves a small amount of posts to actually care about and overall 90% of CB's. Not many top players feequent the boards.

I do not care about the overall ratio since its flawed as hell, tactics and advice are what I look for. Advice such as 'dont get grabbed' or 'careful about *insert obvious move that the character is known for*' are not only common but outright useless. I'll stick with MU discussion here cuz I get solid advice and tactics from my fellow bats as you all understand MK as much or more than me.

Edit: MKs item toss cancel covers so much distance God damn. I forgot this even existed. The slide is so huge that you can whiff a dash grab, Tornado seems to come out faster since the slide is like PP and D-Smash keeps the slide. You can use grab too but only the standing one since as i said before dash grab whiffs.

Its useful against (Only if he throws a MB)(most of the time you will throw it normally for combo's)(His whole playstyle revolves around bombs lol)(Greta way to approach with nado since he may hold shield more often)(if you get a weak turnip just use the item cancel)(that odd chance a piece of wood falls from the tree).

Very useful against since you can 100% bet they'll use their items.

But Toonie bombs explodes on the ground unlike link's ones (custom off).

 

[warionumbah2]

But Toonie bombs explodes on the ground unlike link's ones (custom off).

Catch it via jumping airdodge. Didn't know you use MK.

 

[PUK]

You convinced me to give him a try. He's very good, and nicely covers a lot of bad ROB MU.

 

[(Buddha)]

Does MK have disjointed hitboxes? I think everyone who has swords do, but MK's sword is short.
Also, try doing back air for more follow up, as long as you dash behind the enemy, it racks up a lot of damage.

 

[Ulevo]

So, http://kuroganehammer.com/

I would like to get Meta Knight's data up here. Do we have anyone here that is able to observe frame data?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I had a shot at 5th or better today and I blew it.

Lost to some Zero Suit in Loser's. 9th out of 42. So ****ing irritated. I have to try so hard to win that MU. This whole day was frustrating. Losing to busted ass characters. I don't usually get so upset but I lost my patience today. How the hell do I win that MU?

 

[ItoI6]

when paralyzer, bair into the ground or dsmash hits your shield dont try and punish it just jump backward oos and fastfall away to the ground. i think its pretty bad for mk