Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[W.A.C.]

To be fair, a lot of people overrate their own mains, so that can create a bias of where a character like Meta Knight would place. Plus he's so under used and there's a severe lack of fantastic Meta Knight players in Smash 4. It's unfortunate, but overtime I'm hoping he'll continue to have more impressive tournament success and become a character people realize is still good despite how much he has changed since Brawl. Also keep in mind customs are popular and Meta Knight fares worse with customs because all of his customs except High Speed Drill are so awful.

 

[Deleted member]

Our boy Fye is playing against one of the best Texas players using MK.

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

Edit: He's back on. The chat is going crazy for him lol.

 

[Ulevo]

Our boy Fye is playing against one of the best Texas players using MK.

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

I missed it. Yo @ Fye , bring us videos.

Anyway. Meta Knight is for whatever reason very misunderstood. I thought he would be a lot more popular considering how cool of a character he is. Listening to a lot of the commentary in the Meta Knight matches played on stream reminds me of how ignorant a lot of players are. They just do not understand how he works, and the fact that most Meta Knight mains are bad only helps to perpetuate the stigma he currently has. If we had about 3-4 more Ito's roaming around in different regions who solo main'd him then I think peoples view on his tier placement would rise. Unfortunately this is not the case. It's kind of like how Pikachu is viewed very poorly in Japan. The representation is just not there.

Ito needs to stop resorting to his half-assed Diddy Kong. Katakiri needs to be more consistent. ZTD needs to be more confident with his plays. I feel like nerves get him a lot of the time. S2H just needs to stop doing stupid things. One minute I watch him play and he'll amaze me then the next minute he does something am I'm like "...why on earth did he do that?"

Anyway, we all need some learning. I just wanna finish school.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

I'm actually kind of glad MK isn't that popular. Gives us an edge in the matchup department and keeps him fresh and interesting to watch, play as, and play against. The thing about MK is that he's not very straightfroward to figure out and needs a lot readjustment to one's mindset compared to most sword wielding characters as well as quite a bit of finesse so many won't bother and will instead pick up a character that is easier to learn.

 

[Ulevo]

Yo Fye, nice try. Does anyone know if you cannot dash attack through the Wario's bite? I felt like he took some command grabs there he maybe should not have.

 

[Deleted member]

I did hear that MK's dash attack beats Wario's bite, but maybe I was misinformed.

 

[Oblivion129]

How'd it go, @ Fye ?

Yo Fye, nice try. Does anyone know if you cannot dash attack through the Wario's bite? I felt like he took some command grabs there he maybe should not have.

Dash attack should hit Wario out of the Bite animation. It's like a trade except dash attack actually hits Wario while MK is in a "getting out of a grab" animation.

 

[W.A.C.]

Ito needs to stop resorting to his half-***** Diddy Kong.

He can play whoever he wants and his Diddy Kong is solid.

Katakiri needs to be more consistent.

He doesn't even view Meta Knight as viable with customs for some odd reason largely because of matchups like Mii Brawler, even though almost no top player views Mii Brawler as a top five character anymore. So I imagine that doesn't help with consistency. Mindset about matchups can really wreck confidence.

ZTD needs to be more confident with his plays. I feel like nerves get him a lot of the time.

No comment, though I personally find tournament matches stressful and some people handle stress better than others.

S2H just needs to stop doing stupid things. One minute I watch him play and he'll amaze me then the next minute he does something am I'm like "...why on earth did he do that?"

Everyone makes mistakes and unfortunately, with Meta Knight's lightness and the rage mechanic, one simple mistake can result in a death.

 

[warionumbah2]

DA has different animations, the animation where his foot extends is the one that beats Wario's chomp, late DA will lose due to lack of range.

I do not overrate my main actually, if anything i sometimes underrate him since other comments revolving around MK is cancerous and people think he's top 15. There's other character mains who think their mains have a clean MU spread, i acknowledge MKs bad MUs i embrace his poor viability in customs.

The reason why customs isn't going well is because literally nobody is developing the meta, its literally dead. Our default meta is constantly moving and it'll move more when we abuse footstool combo's but customs we look at it and think 'why?'

Representation wise i agree with Ulevo, if we had 4 Ito's that would be sick. The MKs in Japan are awful yet he's on B tier lol.

Does Metaknight really beat Sheik?

I'd say its even now, but everyone thinks Sheik is an invincible deity who doesn't lose to anyone.

I mean I know we can spam up b without getting punished too hard, but still...

you don't know **** lol.

@0ther stuff there's nothing wrong with using other characters, you can't be 'loyal' to a video game character.

Alot of commentators don't know **** about MK, i usually mute the vid its really annoying seeing false info spat into my ears.

Edit harder: If they take out dumb grab releases on Marcina and Rosalina in customs i think his viability will go up slightly. Its truly jank being to much for a character that has no jank at all, its a silly meta.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Top 20 won't be so bad for Meta Knight, that's like the ballpark of characters that can still make top8 in a national tournament.

Itol6 makes money when he goes Diddy, so there's more than just honor/style on the line for him.

That one S2H vs pikachu match from long ago broke my heart, he gets the Up B and **** and it either just doesn't kill or connect properly and then Pika kills him cause S2H fed him rage lmao... I detest this rage mechanic. Blargh, just normalize and buff everyone's killing power across the board so that 3-stock becomes more viable and games go faster and more consistent imo, this is an extremely silly "comeback" mechanic despite it not being called X factor.

There may be things we disagree on quite fiercely, be it match ups or rankings, but I like that these forums are at least ALIVE and have RELEVANT players chipping in their two cents every now and then. Some of these character forums are just completely dead or filled with... well... very meh players.

 

[Fye]

Thanks guys. Denti was super annoying to fight because I'm used to hyper aggro Yoshi.

I feel like I could've taken out Oracle though. I had zero idea about Wario's kill options and it ended up biting me in the end.

I ended up tying for 5th place. And Tourney Locator will upload the sets in about a week or so.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

ZTD needs to be more confident with his plays. I feel like nerves get him a lot of the time.

Truth. I'm a smart player who sometimes lets nerves turn me into a dumb one at the wrong times. I'm looking forward to this weekend though. There's a regional here and @ Katakiri will be there as welll (its in his backyard).

Speaking of, pools are up and the first seed in my pool is Absol, a Sheik main. I know we had a discussion on Sheik but anyone general advice on things we may not have covered would be great.

Link to pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YhnI90Ijpcn5DBYMSIH1b56js3IJZF5Gd5Wbwg9zLJ0/edit#gid=0



My pools threats are a Sheik, a Yoshi I have already beaten before and a Luigi (?). Need to confirm who Mr. L is.

 

[Superbat]

Thanks guys. Denti was super annoying to fight because I'm used to hyper aggro Yoshi.

I feel like I could've taken out Oracle though. I had zero idea about Wario's kill options and it ended up biting me in the end.

I ended up tying for 5th place. And Tourney Locator will upload the sets in about a week or so.

Congrats man

 

[LostinpinK]

Could you link Fye's videos please? :D


On the topic of Greninja side B'ing our up B, do you have a video of this? I tested it with a friend online and he just couldn't get one. Maybe it was poor timing from his part, but I'd like to know for sure whereas they can escape or not.

 

[Sol0ke]

Could you link Fye's videos please? :D

I ended up tying for 5th place. And Tourney Locator will upload the sets in about a week or so.

 

[Ulevo]

So. I know that Final Destination is not a stage we would usually go to voluntarily. With that said, are there any instances we would that anyone can think of, match up wise? Which leads me to my next question, what Omega stage would be most ideal for us?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

If you feel like you have to pick an Omega pick one that doesn't allow for wall jumps at the very least.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'd take to FD.

just a habit i guess, Fox is great with platforms wit his uair and bair may as well take it away.
tbh she's a threat on low ceiling stages(they can say the same when they face MK) but my main gripe is how many times platforms saves Luma like holy **** its annoying especially on SV.
he dies early anyway he's not a threat.
platforms help his combo game a little, but FD gives us room to run away lol. We don't need platforms to have the advantage, he can't force approaches,he can't catch our landings,he can't break our combo's because Uair > Nair. We can camp him for days.

I'm pretty neutral against everyone on FD besides:

more space for him to run, plus higher ceiling than TnC. No thanks.
FD is the ONLY stage where he can fight MK on equal ground, the MU is close to even its that big of a difference. His neutral is pretty darn good but our ability to covert our combo's into kills from a single DA speaks volumes. Stages such as Wily castle is especially good for him because of his wall jump.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ LostinpinK the videos are up btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWQ-bvMAAU8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVSoLwWoYck

 

[Fye]

I was re-watching the two of them, and I definitely need to step some things up. Played a little too safe at times and got punished for it. Got over-eager against Denti and missed all of my techs. And still dissapointed in that Wario game. Easily my biggest choke. I got them next time, though.

Also, my match against Dakpo wasn't streamed. It was my first Texas tourney, so nobody knew who I was and expected me to lose early.

 

[LostinpinK]

Thanks for the videos. I just wanted the twitch replay with a time mark because I couldn't find it on my own, but this is better

Could anyone try the greninja side B during our up B? The sole existence of this trick can make this MU an advantage or a disadvantage imo.

 

[warionumbah2]

Could anyone try the greninja side B during our up B? The sole existence of this trick can make this MU an advantage or a disadvantage imo.

1:08 <---

He can't jank our grounded shuttle loop.

 

[LostinpinK]

It doesn't look like anything too detrimental. The second hit was never going to connect on this video, and since it doesn't work on the grounded SL we should be fine.

 

[Ulevo]

So. With the recent lost by Denti for Fye and with ZTD going in to pools with a Yoshi, I think we should probably talk about the Yoshi match up. @ Katakiri The character is rather obscure and on paper has a lot of good things against Meta Knight in general.

 

[warionumbah2]

We lose the MU either way but i would like advice on how to fight campy Yoshi's, Aggro Yoshi/Flustered Yoshi's get lolstomped by MKs Ftilt 2 and 3(especially 3).

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm attending a weekly event today and I asked our best Yoshi to sit down and play with me. And I believe him to be a better player than the Yoshi I will be fighting at Shuffle. If I'm not feeling this MU, I'm going Wario. We'll see how it plays out. I know what Yoshi is capable of but that thing is just such an obnoxious character no matter who you play lol

 

[W.A.C.]

So @ Fye , that was your first tournament? You did really well against some of Texas's best Smash 4 players. One thing I'd practice is trying to recovery more safely, since that's what cost you your first game against both Denti and Oracle. It was nice seeing Meta Knight being used at a Toruney Locator tournament for once. Are you going to start going to those regularly?

 

[Katakiri]

So next MU thread is Yoshi then?
I don't have a schedule for the MU threads btw; I play everything by ear but I try to get one up once a week or so.
tbh I think the only major threats we haven't hit are Yoshi, Pikachu, VIllager, and Wario.

@ ZTD | TECHnology Absol's a buddy of mine but he just plays a standard, pretty solid Sheik. One thing he does that caught me off-guard is that he'll Bouncing Fish off the the Smashville/T&C balloons and try to hit you with the rebound kick which is MUCH stronger than the initial Bouncing Fish kick. But against Sheik in general, and this is why I still think we have a slight advantage against her, you want to jump out of pretty much anything she tries on you at high percent and air dodge bouncing fish when you see it coming. Sheik can punish air dodges and burning your jump against Sheik puts you in a very bad situation...if you didn't have 4 more jumps that is. We are one of the absolute best characters for slipping out of traps and juggles. The only way Sheik should KO MK is by punishing or making us fall for "dumb ****" which is Judo's term (a KY Sheik), not mine.

Proper DI and mashing jump gets MK out of most things in this game and with him being a fast faller, he also has a very easy time landing. If it's not a true combo or a very hard read, we don't have any excuse for getting juggled in the air. It doesn't matter what character you're facing, if you can't land as MK, you got work to do.


On a side note, I've been working on my overall character control and stage control over the past week. Outside of Custom Move tournaments (which for me really just means Mii Brawler), I haven't had a loss that wasn't entirely my fault. Saturday I was mad salty about Ksev coaching Dixx to victory while Michigan cheered against me but I shouldn't have let that get to me mid-match, especially after how well I played game 1. Every mistake I make is a player problem, not an MK problem. If I don't mess up, I genuinely believe MK can go the distance. Right now my problem is not sticking to my game plan and rushing in. MK wants to control mid-stage constantly and I haven't been doing that properly.
I'm in a constant battle against my own scrubiness.

 

[Fye]

So @ Fye , that was your first tournament? You did really well against some of Texas's best Smash 4 players. One thing I'd practice is trying to recovery more safely, since that's what cost you your first game against both Denti and Oracle. It was nice seeing Meta Knight being used at a Toruney Locator tournament for once. Are you going to start going to those regularly?

While I was at college, I entered tournaments in Missouri and did failry well there. This was my first tourney in Texas. Now that I'm settled in, I'm going to try to consistenly make these events.

 

[W.A.C.]

While I was at college, I entered tournaments in Missouri and did failry well there. This was my first tourney in Texas. Now that I'm settled in, I'm going to try to consistenly make these events.

Sweet. There has been zero Meta Knight representation at Tourney Locator's Smash 4 tournaments, so it's great he'll start getting the attention there he deserves.

 

[ItoI6]

that was such a shame i felt you couldve won both of those matches fye. if you have such a huge lead then for gods sake just play safely and chip away at them. other than that i saw u backthrow them off the stage when dthrow-upb was still a combo, and i think getting the damage is just better. pretty good work though

as for playing against sheik idk just dont get mad when she hits you like a billion times and you cant do anything. even though you might be losing by 100%, you still have to believe in your head the game is even and completely doable at all times. mk cant really be trapped offstage into getting hit by bouncing fish so as long as youre really patient she cant force any kills below like 150%. maybe try going to actual smash instead of training and set your handicap to 100% and see what it feels like. at that percent you should dthrow upb like every time instead of anything fancy unless theyre right at 0, and it should still work up to around 60% i think

 

[Ulevo]

To be honest nearly every Meta Knight loss I've seen on stream has been player related losses. I have yet to see a Meta Knight lose due to character choice. Just proves we have work to do. Consistency is a big thing. It only took a couple mistakes and improper assumptions on Fye's end to lose that Wario set, and yet not making those one or two single mistakes would have probably won him the set. Even against Denti's Yoshi, a lot of that just looked like nerves to me. His Yoshi was pretty sloppy. Oracle's Wario was decent though.

So next MU thread is Yoshi then?
I don't have a schedule for the MU threads btw; I play everything by ear but I try to get one up once a week or so.
tbh I think the only major threats we haven't hit are Yoshi, Pikachu, VIllager, and Wario.

@ ZTD | TECHnology Absol's a buddy of mine but he just plays a standard, pretty solid Sheik. One thing he does that caught me off-guard is that he'll Bouncing Fish off the the Smashville/T&C balloons and try to hit you with the rebound kick which is MUCH stronger than the initial Bouncing Fish kick. But against Sheik in general, and this is why I still think we have a slight advantage against her, you want to jump out of pretty much anything she tries on you at high percent and air dodge bouncing fish when you see it coming. Sheik can punish air dodges and burning your jump against Sheik puts you in a very bad situation...if you didn't have 4 more jumps that is. We are one of the absolute best characters for slipping out of traps and juggles. The only way Sheik should KO MK is by punishing or making us fall for "dumb ****" which is Judo's term (a KY Sheik), not mine.

Proper DI and mashing jump gets MK out of most things in this game and with him being a fast faller, he also has a very easy time landing. If it's not a true combo or a very hard read, we don't have any excuse for getting juggled in the air. It doesn't matter what character you're facing, if you can't land as MK, you got work to do.


On a side note, I've been working on my overall character control and stage control over the past week. Outside of Custom Move tournaments (which for me really just means Mii Brawler), I haven't had a loss that wasn't entirely my fault. Saturday I was mad salty about Ksev coaching Dixx to victory while Michigan cheered against me but I shouldn't have let that get to me mid-match, especially after how well I played game 1. Every mistake I make is a player problem, not an MK problem. If I don't mess up, I genuinely believe MK can go the distance. Right now my problem is not sticking to my game plan and rushing in. MK wants to control mid-stage constantly and I haven't been doing that properly.
I'm in a constant battle against my own scrubiness.

I would be interested in Villager after Yoshi. Also, I do not think we have covered Zero Suit yet, which some people here were saying is pretty bad.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

7th out of 64 today.

Lost to #2 and #4 on the PR. Last hit, last stock against #4 (Lou Rich as Sonic). I played so incredibly well. I feel like I have a good hold on the Sonic MU. I got ***** against Rayquaza's Rosaluma though. Never tried that MU (usually use Falcon). But aside from that I played quite well. Happy about my performance.

Btw watching more of @ ItoI6 's vids and his advice he gave me is already helping me soooooo much. Can't thank you enough for giving me some direction with this character.

 

[warionumbah2]

Vid if anyone wants to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56gKN4viOS0

The advice Ito gave is really helpful but tech in that Rosaluma MU you shouldn't be using dtilt, its not gonna do anything.

That's one advice from Ito that won't work in certain MUs, walking and foxtroting is good because its a movement option and MK has really good mobility specs(his aerial mobility was buffed from Brawl).

In that MU you want Luma dead, DA is the best way to approach and tornado is really good too especially ontop of her. If the player is going for the luma ledge trap you'll see them do a 1 2...1 2 jab to move Luma closer, going for a cape is good if she holds jab that's a free downwards cape slash. This is the version you should go for because there's one where it deals 2% less damage and sends the opponent to the upper corner<--- worst possible angle.

But this was prolly your first time fighting Rosa, you were jumping around way too much when you could've DA Luma. Its best to combo Luma sometimes, like DA then F-smash if Rosa isn't close enough to punish.

Wish i saved some replays facing a really good Rosa, i won more than i lost she's a top tier regardless so its not gonna be easy.

Edit: Thing about Sheik is that she dies at 75% on BF from DA into shuttle loop when MK has max rage, on average i die at 175%. Everyone thinks Sheik is unbeatable God come off it now Sm4sh community.

 

[ItoI6]

you just played so unsafe the whole time

try empty land to cross up roll behind rosa or just behind luma if she jab walks it forward. she generally wants to space jab so if you keep rolling behind her it messes her up because she doesnt know when its safe to continue the jab string. also wait more in front of rosa. she has no good approach when all she can do is random dash shields and very unsafe dash attacks outside of her luma jab walking into random side bs. if you just wait around in front of her and dont give her any openings by yolo dash attacking she will start jabbing, and then you can start going for smart crossup rolls and baiting her out.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Thanks guys. I literally have no idea what I am doing in the MU so I will have lab on that one pretty hard. I just sat there the whole time like "How...how the **** do I approach this dumb character". It was my first time trying that MU and it happened to be against a good one. I shall do better.

 

[Ulevo]

Thanks guys. I literally have no idea what I am doing in the MU so I will have lab on that one pretty hard. I just sat there the whole time like "How...how the **** do I approach this dumb character". It was my first time trying that MU and it happened to be against a good one. I shall do better.

You looked like you were trying to play rush down, probably due to the urgency of getting Luma away. Meta Knight still does better with a passive aggressive style. As good as Rosalina is, she has openings. Wait for them. If you run in trying to make things happen you're going to get bopped.

 

[W.A.C.]

I have to agree with Ito that you played super unsafe throughout much of the match (like using tornado above Rosalina while at death percentage). However, using up throw against Rosalina to kill Luma is something I never thought to do and it looked like a smart grab option worth using in the future. I'll keep that in mind next time I have to fight Rosalina.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yeah I was banking on the shockwave getting Luma out of my face long enough to pressure her but then I ****ed up rofl

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah. Up throw has a lot of knock back on the descent, and if you can space the grab right it is a good way of getting Luma off stage.