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The "Bowser Matchups" Thread

Discussion in 'Bowser' started by Gimpyfish62, Feb 16, 2007.

  1. bubbaking

    bubbaking Smash Hero

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    Falcon just kind of screws Bowser over... Doc can be slowly approached through the pills. Luigi is definitely more manageable than both of them, however. Just ftilt/fair him. He has to either approach on the ground (probably with ftilt or jab > grab) or slow himself down in the air.
  2. Lime Cultivist

    Lime Cultivist Smash Cadet

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    Bait out an up-b out of shield from Samus and get a hard punish. Pick a stage with platforms to try and avoid missiles. Up-b out of shield yourself to try and punish down smash. Maybe flame cancel if it's 1.0 or 1.1 to annoy her out of wavedash approaches. Just some ideas.

    :samusmelee::bowsermelee:
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  3. E-102 Gamma

    E-102 Gamma Smash Journeyman

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    You can also dash attack her missiles.
  4. J$

    J$ I body Fox

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    Anybody have experience with the Bowser Yoshi MU? I feel like it is pretty good for Bowser. When Yoshi uses his double jump to recover you can Koopa Klaw and throw him back off out of his jump and he'll have no way to recover.

    Also general advice for the Marth MU? I mostly play against spacies in my area so I rarely get experience with other matchups.
  5. Kalimari

    Kalimari Smash Rookie

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    Next time I get a chance to play Vectorman I'll tell you what I think. I would imagine you don't want to fall for platform>shield drop as Yoshi will get very nasty combos on big Bowser. A lot of Yoshi players just love sitting in shield waiting for you to attack so I propose Koopa Klaw to condition him from using shield-drop punishes.
    I'm fairly sure forward-throw Klaw connects into upair but I would watch out for double jump armor. No doubt yoshi will dj armor punish you, especially when you are at higher %
    Bowser fair is amazing, but predictable fairs will definitely be met with a parry. And parries can lead to 60%+ combos

    I definitely wouldn't say it's in Bowser's favor. Yoshi is nasty, fast, and can take a beating. You take a look at dj nintendo vs amsa and you can see the frustrations. Like I said I'll experiment against vman next opportunity. Bowser might have strong ledge play against Yoshi and I'm wondering about Downsmash myself.


    As far as Marth goes I don't pick Bowser against him yet. I struggle a lot in that matchup. However there's marth discussion a few pages back that maybe you can read.
  6. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    Just in case for any Bowser mains that read this since I also play Marth and Bowser, Marth basically does everything that Bowser can but better. Marth loves to look for grabs or chances to put on pressure with his spaced SHFFLs (Fair especially). If Marth lands even one hit, try to escape anyway, but don't be surprised at losing a stock there. Bowser's neutral options here are pretty similar to most of his matchups: Up B OoS, Koopa Klaw Forward to Fair (Fair by itself helps against Marth). Another addition is that you can CC Marth's aerials for a while, so if the Marth leads in with one at low percents, CC then punish. Edgeuarding Marth is tricky as Bowser (exact opposite the other way around), Getup Attack Edgeguard (GAE) doesn't work well, so keep that in mind, I believe Bowser can do the Marth slayer, but you could also just go to the ledge by yourself. All of this assumes that the Marth is experienced. If the Marth does stuff more random or old school even, just pay attention to what happens then punish on openings since likely there will be many to choose from, lol. In terms of the Yoshi MU, it's not in Bowser's favor at all. It's possible, but it's frustrating. Again, DJ v. aMSa should be looked at for this. Fortuneately, most Yoshi players are not at a high level like aMSa or even Vectorman (there have been more Yoshi players now than before). Also, don't try to GAE Yoshi, it doesn't work. That is what I can tell you on these MUs
  7. Kalimari

    Kalimari Smash Rookie

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    Does Klaw-forward to up-air work on Marth? Maybe if they DI in..
  8. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    It's more situational for that combo. That would be the correct DI to make that combo possible.
  9. E-102 Gamma

    E-102 Gamma Smash Journeyman

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    Pretty sure Marth can just bop you. You can, however, put an up-air above him and hope he gets scared and jumps into it. :p
  10. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    Lol, yes. But Marth basically bops Bowser if he knows the MU.
  11. J$

    J$ I body Fox

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    He bops Bowser even if he doesn't know the MU.
    My earlier post was before I had a better understanding of Bowser's MUs, I understand how must MUs go now.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
  12. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    You would be surprised at how the Unknown effect can change the tide of the battle. Most bad MUs are based on certain exploits that can be used by high tiers against lower tiers. If the player doesn't know them then it could go either way.

    That being said, Marth basically is the epitome of spacing characters, and Bowser fits as a defensive spacer. You probably know this already, and this is how Math kills the Koopa King.
  13. Kalimari

    Kalimari Smash Rookie

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    Bowser is absolutely one solid character where if your opponent doesn't know the matchup or doesn't respect what Bowser can do then he can get a lot of mileage out of it. Of course it doesn't take long to figure out what Bowser does but still
  14. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    It may not take as long as let's say Mewtwo, but Bowser has the capability to take a stock quickly if the opponent doesn't know what to do and abuses this. It is possible to take a set if you act quickly and not be too predictable for his standards. If the player does know the MU, GG.
  15. Kalimari

    Kalimari Smash Rookie

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    I wholeheartedly agree.

    Can we talk Bowser's up-b frame data for a second? There seems to be a lot of misconception about how it works. I've heard many different things regarding when: he has invincibility frames, and , when the move actually comes out.
    From what I see, Bowser has invincibility frames 1-4 (but it clanks with peach's dsmash?) and the move comes out frame 5. Is this right?
    I don't know how to read frame data really.
    Is the data different from up-b out of shield (as opposed to raw up-b)? I think it does
  16. Kalimari

    Kalimari Smash Rookie

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    as a follow up, peach doesn't seem to have anything dangerous gaurenteed on my shield. Up-b seems faster than anything she can cook out. WHat makes Peach such a hard matchup aside from the fact that my combo game and klaw follow ups aren't as lethal? turnip camp?
  17. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    I don't think that the Up B OoS changes the frame data except by adding the frames of shield. Yes the hitbox comes out on frame 5 after 4 invincible frames (This enables the move to be a useful "Get off me" kinda move alongside with move movement and. To prove a point, Fox's shine has one invincibility frame at the start which makes it outprioritize every move if one hits the shine on that frame, which proves to be very good for Fox nowadays. These 4 frames on Bowser's Up b act the same way). If you look at the Bowser frame data thread, Bowser will show blue for a moment at the start of the animation of Up B. This indicates invincibility. Luckily, on the other frames while the hitbox is out, you are invincible on the lower horizontal ends, which helps at times. Yellow indicates hurtboxes, or in this case called areas that are vulnerable for attack. In the case of Up B, it's basically in the area of the shell. Red, if you don't know, indicates hitboxes, which you probably know what they are by now. Those three are the main areas to look out for in frame data in your analysis. In this case, since the move comes out relatively quick, has invincible start up frames, and has invincible horizontal body parts, the move becomes a great option for Bowser to get out of shield pressure (and basically the only good option in a serious match). What to look out for is if the player goes to attack the shell in the animation to abuse the open hurtbox and if he keeps on getting himself hit by your hitbox (since the hitbox has frames of not being on the same side of you). This can tell you whether if it's safe to approach the opponent due to lack of knowledge or not and back away, and this tells you what you need to due to position the hitbox to add on damage once he gets stuck in hitstun. This is the kind of thing that you have to think about when analyzing basic frame data. It can help you come up with scenarios to use certain moves add how to space them and yourself.

    The Peach MU does get tough with turnips, but there's more to it than that. Peach may not have the most guaranteed shield pressure, but she provides much of it with her Dair (situational), Dsmash, turnips (of course), Jabs, Nairs, and Bairs. She sometimes uses shield pressure for a while, but there are times that Peach prefers to use the shieldstun to get a grab for a punish. Her grabs make your world a nightmare with Dthrow tech chase, Uthrow for air pressure, Fthrow fo setup edgeguards. I don't know if she has a chaingrab on Bowser (it's not like on spacies that's for sure), but she benefits still from throws. Peach also can follow you off stage for a while and she probably will have a projectile. You will probably end up being forced to Up B to recover since Bowser falls somewhat fast and his vertical recovery is lacking, and Peach can abuse this with her offstage game with predicting where Bowser will go (of course if you're too far out, she will just edgehog you like everybody else). This alone makes it difficult for Bowser, and I'm sure there's more than what I've mentioned.
  18. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    To add to the Falco matchup, you obviously can throw the Falco offstage and go for the hard read and forward smash Falco's side b. Lol, this makes Bowser even better! xD
  19. Kalimari

    Kalimari Smash Rookie

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    Any insight in the Samus MU?

    Havin a reeall hard time wrapping my head around how to approach this matchup. In neutral Samus can just lay bombs forever making it imp to approach. Missiles are hell too even tho you can dash attack/nair them. I p much spent my time spacing fairs and camping platforms, using shield drops as needed.
    As far as getting her offstage I had a frustrating time killing her when she was off, any advice?
  20. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru Smash Journeyman

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    The Samus matchup is difficult since it can easily become projectile city like the Link matchup. It really is just a war of attrition with trying to inch forward trying to approach Samus IMO. Usually if I play too campy here, I just end up being pressured by projectiles and Samus cutting off all options. If it works for you though then still do it. And Samus always had a decent recovery, so she is too hard to gimp IMO. I think that you just have to find a way to get in and rack up some damage a send her far away offstage for a kill. Yoshi's might be good as a stage to close the gap and for small blast zones in order to get earlier kills. I'll have to iron out all of the details of the matchup though since it is hard and a rare MU.
  21. J$

    J$ I body Fox

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    My main training partner actually mains Samus so I have a lot of experience with this MU. I've found that FoD is the stage I do consistently best on, because you can apply pressure and she is unable to fire missiles. It's definitely a dificult MU, but not impossible. This is one of the few MUs where playing aggro seems to benefit you. You still need to be wary of bombs, of course, and her upb OoS.

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