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The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

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Cos.

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I share your thoughts, but you have to be very careful about calling something false or true... (the point about not being able to disprove religion or believe is absolutely sure, it's just some things connect better with the world as we experience it)

This is more in the direction of an ethnical debate (Where I find it's hard to define arguements, their more a feeling from each person how things should be. (I think it would better to make a new topic for such a debate, since this is appearantly being used for something else)

(I don't know, but somehow I've been righting so much in last time, I 'm starting to scare myself... :confused: :crazy: )
 

Nall

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perahps my last post didn't relate to our current subject. But I thought it would be important to share my opinion first and I didn't have time to read the last discussions. I'll say this, I only know of few theories about how this world started. Some are related to religion and others are related to science. I've heard of Scientific theories such as human's evolving from apes, and the big bang theory. I've even heard of beliefs that we evolved from bunnies*laugh out loud*, I forget who I've heard them from. Another event that may have occured to cause the birth of this world is God (this relates to religion). In the bible God spent 7 days creating this world. I'll add that Since the existance of dinosaurs has been discovered and proven but never seen by humans has lead me to wonder how God would create and kill dinosaurs in 7 days. but since I choose to believe in my religion my theory is 1 day to God equels 1000 or more years to us or possibly even more. After all, to God time doesn't exist. And in a way it doesn’t, clocks only do. According to the Bible, after those 7 days, God created two humans which started our human race (I’ll add that when only two humans from that time can become over a billion to today you know that insest had to have occurred for this to become possible). After centuries have passed by Mary gave birth to a boy named Jesus who died for our sins. This is where AD(After Death) and BC(Before Christ) take place(You’ll even notice in games such as Chrono Trigger AD and BC was used). To me there was never such a thing as BC, people use BC when referring to events in history. My question is if there is no religion where does AD come from? You can’t suddenly create a religion after the death of Jesus. Have you ever dated a paper you worked on including the year? That year is related to religion. It’s now 2002 AD (2002 years after the death of christ). All theories about the birth of this world fall into two categories. Religion, and Science. That’s probably why people will discuss science when discussing religion. I think in a way science and religion are like enemies. Either the big bang events were the cause of this world or God created this world in 7 days. But non of us know and no one can prove these theories because it happened so many millenia ago. Where we get our historical information is from other people who have been there to see it and who’ve heard it from there elders. How can one be so sure religion does or doesn’t exist, all that a person can do is believe, and if all religions are false where will that person go? I’d like to know that. Of course some believe in reincarnation, others believe a person will become a ghost after death.
 

Nall

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Just a quick note, my last message isn't a reply to the message currently posted which I didnt notice, It's simply a message I wish to share with people.

[FREE SIG REMOVAL SERVICE] A quick reminder, there is an edit button for a reason. Do not double post.
 

Crono

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Pointing things out

Why would God kill the dinosaurs, his own creation?

Time flows. We don't need clocks to know that.

AD means "Anno Domini." in the year of our lord. AD is from Jesus's supposed birth, though if he existed he likely was born around 4 BC.

Your opinions matter, but only when supported by some concrete evidence.

And it sounds like you believe that there needs to be an afterlife, as if you're afraid of nonexistence. When you don't exist, you don't exist. You can't know anything, because you don't exist. Nothing to fear, so don't be afraid to consider that possibility.

Your sig is too big.

Lastly, don't double post... just click the edit button.
 

Nall

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Well I would say that "God didn't kill dinosaurs, an ice age did" but if that happen then to God dinosaurs were never meant to exist. But according to the bible God plans on causing destruction to this world at an unknown time (of coursethat isn't going to cause human's go go extinct like it did to dinosaurs).
I'm gonna have to say that Non of our opinions matter because there's no evidence(evidence I've heard of or seen) that religion is true or false. Like I said earlier you CAN'T disprove it or prove it.
Also I never meant to give an impression I was afraid that there was no afterlife. If I die and don't end up anywhere else then I was wrong, and I don't mind being wrong, I just chose to believe in God and I'm staying with that. What you believe in is fine with me.
btw I'm sorry if I write too much, that's how I am sometimes. And I'll remember the edit button, after all I am new here.

[FREE SIG REMOVAL SERVICE]
 

Stromrage12

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I think that people who get on to people for thier beliefs are messed up. Im a christian and i would not give up my beliefs for anything but im not gonna go knock on ur door or stand on a street corner shouting repent. The way u go about it is let them come to the truth that i believe God brings to peoples lives. If u dont want it i wont press it it is a decision that has to be made not forced on someone
 

Ryudo

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Now, i am a Christian too but i don't believe in forcing your religion on someone else. If you do that your ultimatly not accomplishing (sp?) anything.

Now, way back you guys were talking about atheists bashing Christians and vice versa. Now, i don't bash atheists, i feel sorry, but never bash.

Now comes my point, and please remember i'm not talking about all atheists in general but some of them.

SOME atheists believe that Christians are a "weak" people (i know one that does), they believe we are weak because we need something to fall back on. The thing is, that is true! We do need something and we have it, it makes are life meaningfull.

Now, on the other hand atheists believe there is no life after death....but some still don't think of there life as meaningless and say Christians focase on death more than living.

I believe, it's not so much as focasing on death as it is having a life that has a reward at the end. I don't believe we or anyone shouldn't live there life if they're a Christian, they should but also keep in mind that the best is yet to come.

Now, remember everything i just said doesn't apply to ALL atheists, just some and i am in no way bashing anyone.
 

SilencedViolence

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If reality is what my mind percieves, then I might
Originally posted by Stromrage12
I think that people who get on to people for thier beliefs are messed up. Im a christian and i would not give up my beliefs for anything but im not gonna go knock on ur door or stand on a street corner shouting repent. The way u go about it is let them come to the truth that i believe God brings to peoples lives. If u dont want it i wont press it it is a decision that has to be made not forced on someone
Duh... that's the point.... do you think anyone would discover this truth... the specific truth of christianity if no one ever presented it to them. Do christians really believe that if a person is left without any knoledge of religion, they will have a tendency to drift twoards the "christian truth"? That's the whole problem with your religion... many of you say that god presents no evidence of himself, but then how did the first preson "find out and pass it on"? You're claiming that everyone realizes this during their life, but if this was so, then how do you explain the completely dfferent religions found around the world (and I'm not just saying christians, I'm talking about all religions, as in this same train of thought should apply to any religion)? The only thing I ahve seen is that people tend to invent mythology, they have a tendency to, in order to explain things, or just because they assume too much. I remember when I was a kid I used to try to explain everything, and I never actually tried to make close observations, I just said something, my friend agreed, we took it as fact, or a sufficient explanation. Its what religion is, a childish tendency to discover and explain. And the worst part is, it is taught at such a naive age, anyone will believe it. If you tell something to a child, a story or such from religion, do you think they won't take it as fact? They'll believe you unless it extremely contradicts something they know of previously, and since in mosty cases kids don't know much, they take it as fact, and unfortunately, the greatest learning capacity is present in childhood, so they will retin these concepts. The only reason I'm not religious is because no specific religion has ever been intensly pressed upon me. I never went to churh in my childhood, as far as I can remember except for the usual rituals following birth. This ment I fanticized about what I would like most in this supposed heaven. I later realized that it was a stupid and childish thing to do so, and I realized it was wishful thinging, which ran on religious fuel, and I understood that that is actually how religion developed.

Ok.. strangely, as I was typing that, it felt like I was being too harsh. Sorry.

Nall, don't worry about posting a long post... its fine as long as it makes sense (just look at 1psemt (sp?)).

Anyway, in summery (sp?), the idea that if you never present a religion to people, the people will have a tendency to come to that religion anyway is just stupid, unless you start claming there's a soul, which brings me back to the human choice debate, which in part kills the concept of a soul being part of some1's mind.

Anyway, I have no idea why I'm posting this, so sorry... probably to fire myself up tomorrow for school... maybe we'll debate theism or something (there's lots of atheists in my class... since I go to advanced classes with the same people, I consider them my class.... its a school thing, don't ask).
 

£ink

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uhhhhhhhhhhh... what?
I also share your thoughts Bazooka Lucca, I have wondered for a long time how an aethiests mind works. What they think is going to happen when they die. I can't imagine it just to be over, I can't imagine having so many thought and then... nothing. But I don't need to worry about that because I'm Christian. I would like to know from any aethiests out there, what you think will happen when you die.

Oh and not to contradict what you say Bazooka, but we are not commanded to convert other people into Christianity, we are merely asked to accept God's existence and believe that he raised Jesus from the dead and then we will be saved. People who convert people's religion are just trying to help them find God and give them the gift of eternal life.
 

Bazooka Lucca

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I don't think there is much forcing going on in this topic. I believe as a Christian that I am to spread what I have. In Matthew there is a passage known as the "Great Commission" and it says.. "Now go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit."

I take that to mean to go disciple people which will mean that they will have to convert to follow.

Anyways I wrote this topic last year sometime when I had turned away from Christianity for several reasons, and after realizing my life was crap without maintaining a good relationship with God, I decided, after months of rebellion against God, to come back. It was quite a journey, but God has taught me so much from it.

Originally posted by Liquid Entropy
Now, what's really shocking is that this
subject isn't techincally christians vs athiests.

BL just wanted some opinion to work with. I
doubt it really swayed him either way at all,
actually.

Anyhow, regardless of what you believe in, if it
makes you happy, congradulations BL. Personally,
it looks like I don't believe it, but that's coo
and all.

Looks like BL pretty much ended this topic by
making his decision. If someone wants to formally
change the subjet I'd recommend a new topic...
I may reply anyhow.
Well, this isn't a debate topic, or at leats my intent wasn't for it to be a debate. As you can see LE pretty much summed things up for this topic. But since there's good debates I won't close it ;)
 

Flaming Blaze

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Sirus011, I've looked at it but I haven't had the time to put anything together.


Nall, the Bible does talk about Dinosaurs, the Leviathan in Job 41 and the behemoth in Job 40:15-24. With the second creature a lot of critics try to say the Bible is talking about an elephant. It can't be because elephants have tails like ropes and the Bible discribes the creature as having a tail like a cedar tree.

Also, if you search "dinosaurs today" (or something like it) on yahoo or google, it should bring up some stuff.
 

SilencedViolence

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If reality is what my mind percieves, then I might
Originally posted by Bazooka Lucca
I don't think there is much forcing going on in this topic. I believe as a Christian that I am to spread what I have. In Matthew there is a passage known as the "Great Commission" and it says.. "Now go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit."

I take that to mean to go disciple people which will mean that they will have to convert to follow.

Anyways I wrote this topic last year sometime when I had turned away from Christianity for several reasons, and after realizing my life was crap without maintaining a good relationship with God, I decided, after months of rebellion against God, to come back. It was quite a journey, but God has taught me so much from it.
Crap... we lost him... great. *signals covert ops, hehehe... MISSON: Brainwash BL*

Anyway... uh... duh... so you never realy "disbelieved in god"??? You were just like: you were mean to me... so I'll pretend like I disbelieve in you... so poo on you! :p ??? Hmmmm... duh... I should've realized this. Anyway... was your life crap because bad things were happening physically, or were you in conflict with yourself? I need some answers... so I can further my analysis and hopefully show you some more of my reasoning.

As 4 u link... what are you talking about? You think that after death you will go somewhere else because you can't imagine otherwise. You can't imagine what it is like "not to think" because you still think thoughts are based on "soul"... another one of your religions concepts... oh well... you won't allow me to convince you... and I realize this. Its pretty sad... because you don't realize all you feel is patterns of active and unactive neurons in your head. How can you not realize that when death comes around... there would just be no neurons. That's stupid... why do religious people keep thinking their mentality is not a physical occurence. There is major proof it is, while there is no even nearly conclusive proof that there are other plains of existence where the soul is present... plus if there were... how would religion know of their existence in the first place... unless god presented himself... but then again... don't some of you calim that god presents no evidence of himslef... and requiers you to believe only on faith? its just some people just thinkng up concepts about 6000 years ago (im not sure when the jewish religion came to be)... and then holding them as facts... and passing them on through generations. Can the church prove to you these events actually occured through evidence or developed logic? The main reason theists believe is because they have been convinced while they were blind from other opinions. Then they wer told that there is no evidence for god so he requires them to believe on faith... so this way the bad atheists could not disprove him.

Anyway... can some1 please refute my argument in my previous post... if there was 1.

So... BL... you have always assumed that god exists... I assume... now please tell us in general what kinds of problems you have had... so that I can try to argue further...

(again... its an assumption)
 

Bazooka Lucca

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Okay first of all, would you stop talking like your normally do and start making sense? You talk like one of those airhead girls who can't seem to make sense on AIM or in real life for that matter.

During the months of rebellion, I highly doubted God's existance, so I lived and indulged my life in sin. Nothing went right for me during those times. My grades dropped from A/A+ to B-/C my gpa dropped from 3.34 to a 2.96 and it was on it's way downward. Severe depression struck me and anger was enveloped throughout my everyday occurnences. I couldn't get along with anyone, all of my relationships seemed to have been hurt somehow, everything seemed so distant, out of focus. I was at the point where I had no friends, or so it seemed. Suicidal thoughts began to take me, I actually cut myself a couple times. I never did anything serious though.

And after I realized my life was h3ll, I slowly started walking back towards God. It must have taken me a month before I was sure I wanted to go bad to God.

Now all of this is quite general, but I didn't record minute details of my life during those 6 months. I just know it was horrible. I would cry myself to sleep at night, stole cigarettes and smoked them when I could. I wasn't one to do this type of stuff, I was never emotional, I hadn't cried in years. I hated everyone including myself. Well God caught my heart like that. It's so amazing what he has delivered me from and kept me from.
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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There's your mistake.

You made the classic mistake of equating atheism with immorality. Disbelieving in God doesn't mean you have to go out and drink and smoke and fail in school etc etc...It just means you get rid of your imaginary friend. You don't need to change your life whatsoever, except for stopping with the church ****.

I heartily invite you to try again, except this time don't be stupid. Because that was your problem- you were stupid. You haven't learned how to live life without an imaginary helper, so when you suddenly lost that helper you didn't know what to do with yourself and made some dumb decisions. Much like how when parents shelter their kids all through high school, when the kids go to college and suddenly have no rules, they tend to go overboard with their freedom and fail their classes because they were too drunk.
It's a simple case of you not being able to handle a sudden influx of responsibility, nothing more. No "deliverance" bs. Just irresponsibility.

So please, try again.

-B
 

Orb

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I've not read every post in this thread, but from what I have, I think I should say this. I'm about to make some statements that might offend people, so please, remember this is my opinion and it doesn't mean I'm right; it's just what I believe.

I believe that more than half of Christians today follow thier religion for the sole reason that they were brought up with it. That is what was taught to them, and they know no better, so they grow to believe it.

I am a 14 year old freshman at a Catholic High School. I've been in a Catholic school since Pre-school, yet I do not believe in God. Why? I'm not sure. I've never felt like there is a plan for me; that there is some benevolent force guiding us through life.

Also, what makes Christianity THE faith? Why should we follow the Christian way through life instead of the Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Daoist, etc. through life? What makes Christianity any different? This doesn't mean I don't believe in religion, or some sort of divine force. I'm just confused.

The argument against this, and what I believe, is that the religion you follow doesn't matter. It's the faith you have in that religion. The belief in a religion, or a greater being, is what matters.
 

Bazooka Lucca

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Well Bee,

It wasn't quite like that, I wasn't trying to be bad or anything. I was just trying to live life normally, totally dependant on myself. I did block out God in my life in all aspects. Thanks for the request, but I'm happy as I am.

Orb,

Yeah I think some people stick with their religion because they were brought up on it. However, that's not my case. (Not that you were pointing a finger at me). My dad tried reasoning with me once he found out my change in faith, well he didn't convince me.
 

Orb

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BL,

You're right, I'm not trying to point the finger at anyone, but when you think about it, I bet that the majority of the Catholic faith is.. erm.. Catholic because that is what they were taught. That is how your parents were brought up, and now your parents are bringing you up in the same way.

Also, I'm not saying that the Catholic faith is a bad religion. As I said, I've gone to Catholic schools my entire education. It is the things that they've taught me to become a better person in society.

Just a little clarification on my part. ^_^
 

Secound_Death

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Since everyone is telling their story, I might as well tell mine. I used to believe in God and Heaven and ****. I would agonize about what would happen to me after my death. Would I go to heaven, to **** or maybe simply not exist and more? Suddenly, I just stopped caring. I don't know why I did, but I didn't care what happened to me after I died. (If I die when most be in my country die, it will be years from now. Furthermore I'll never know until after I die what happen, so why worry?) I continued
on this line. Finding no tangible proof of God, I gave up on him too. So now I am an Atheist and much happier too. I can act freely without worrying that I might offend an imaginary man and incur his wrath.
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Zook-

"I highly doubted God's existance, so I lived and indulged my life in sin."

This tells me you were changing your lifestyle in a bad way, intentionally. What I'm trying to say is, when you lose your faith you shouldn't change your lifestyle. All that should change is that you now don't believe in all dieties instead of all but one.

The depression stuff I can understand, though. When you base your life on an imaginary being and then suddenly pull that foundation away, you don't know what to do.

Of course, I'm not the expert on losing faith...Novowels is. I think I'll stop now because obviously you're back to feeling secure in your faith so why bother.

-B
 

thebigxer

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read above
I have learned that most of us have grown in religion soley because of our parents and if it was not for them none of us would ever join a religion. Also for most people it is not a matter of bileving but caring. Most people would rather not care or think about a god and would rather enjoy living there lives the best way possible without having to worry about everything single action they commit.

I myself like many others have stopped caring about religion although sometimes i do think about the possibility of a god and if im leading myself to ****. As soon as this comes to mind i soon forget about it and stop caring. i live my life the best possible way and dont see it fit for me to conform to some god. when people ask me about my discision i like to say " if not gonna get into heaven why miss it by inches?"
 

smashattack

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when people ask me about my discision i like to say " if not gonna get into heaven why miss it by inches?"
Just wanted to let you know that you're quite mistaken. Heaven doesn't work like that as far as I know.

It's not a measurement... you hit it square on the bullseye or you miss by miles (in the opposite direction). There is no in-between. Like Ocean's 11, you're either in or you're out.
 

jameslocke

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in an existential nightmare
the athiests folly...

now, i thought about making this its own topic, but i'll just post it here. i dont think anyone else has brought this up, and i dont really feel like surfing through 380+ posts and check, so here goes.

speaking as an ex-atheist, and as a pretty spiritual person these days (not christian), i've got a little complaint about the atheist claim. i think its fair to say that most atheists today are a reaction to the christian belief system. these athiests (which seem plentiful in this room) spend time trying to dissuade christians from their absolute knowledge of the existence of God and point out the holes in the bible. they also claim with a strange certainty that God doesnt exist. i hope we all agree so far.

now, the point i'd like to make is that atheists and christians both claim a certainty in their knowledge about the existence of God, but both claim is impossible to verify. no one can prove or disprove the existence of God. poking holes in the bible or mocking fundamentalist beliefs doesnt mean God doesnt exist, and God doesnt necessarily exist because a book says so. maybe i'm just making a point for the sake of semantics, but i think atheists would be more correct if they reclassified themselves as agnostics.

to me, it seems like people as a whole love to have certainty on *something* whether its a rational belief or not. no one is weak just because they say "i dont know," so why not chuck our security blankets and just look for a philosophy/idea that works for us as individuals, and not bother with trying to prove others wrong or ourselves right?
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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no

Are you certain that a tiny invisible leprechaun doesn't live in your ear, feeding off your earwax? Well, if you are, you should have no problem understanding why I am certain there is no god. Furthermore, there are definite proofs against defined gods, such as the Omnimax Christian God, most notably the argument from evil.
Now, if you want to claim that you AREN'T certain there's a tiny invisible leprechaun living off your earwax, first of all you're a little kooky, second of all if you're not certain of that, how are you certain of anything? Doesn't that just make the word "certain" lose its meaning? Sure, you could venture down the road of solipsism but that's a pretty worthless philosophy. The fact of the matter is if you're at all pragmatic you'll realize that "certainty" never means 100% certainty, because that's impossible. It just means 99.9999% sure, or even as low as 95% (I hear 95% is the standard threshhold of probability in scientific matters). And I can safely say I'm over 99.9999% sure that God doesn't exist. Big G God.
And I'd also like to note that I was born an atheist and never changed. It's not a reaction to anything, but rather the natural state of being for humans. You are correct, though, that MOST atheists are lapsed Christians, who one day realized how absurd it all is.

-B
 

Pgreg

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Wow...so many atheists

I agree with BBT. What I don't like about religion is that none of it is fact based, therefore none of it can be proven. Religious people are just devoting their lives to a lost cause. In psychology, you will learn that almost anything that does not have factual representation is false. This is why I don't believe in religion.

Many people try to counter by saying, "How was life created on earth?"...I believe in the scientific theory, it is simple more logical.

My counter question to this is, "Who created God?"...This usually gets no response.

(Technically, atheism can be considered to be a religion, but you know what I mean)
 

NJE789

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Atheism is a religion of sorts, it's about ignoring those fairy tales mommy tells you and only believing in logical concepts. It's a choice everyone must make.. Will you believe in some blind faith that doesn't make any real sense, or will you accept the more logical idea that you cease to exist when you die. This concept destroys any and all real meaning in our existance, and I've always wondered what the atheism's motivation for getting out of bed in the morning was. I'm sorta undecided, though I'm leaning on atheism more, I still don't let it get to me, but not being sure is really annoying. Until science makes perfect sense we can't be 100% sure, but I think we should stop discussing the origin of life and try something else, like human consciousness. Is it a soul, or is it just your brain being aware of itself..
 

BIGTOM

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Firstly nothing can really be completely proven to be true or false, so saying that God mustn't exist because there is no "proof" is the same as saying he does exist without "proof". There are things that can't be explained by Logic and won't ever be explained.

Plus what exactly is atheism, disbelief in religion or belief in only what is logical since they are two different things.

Now im not sure what i would be classified as, I don't follow any one religion, but i believe in there being more to existance than what can be explained by logic, i beleive in a soul but not a particular religion one, I believe people and the universe are connected in some way, i follow my own thoughts, but i don't see others who follow a religion as wrong just a different way of seeing, I don't know what the meaning of life is or if there is one but i don't believe that what we do is pointless.

And those that say they pity those that belive in religion, im sure that those people will pity you for not having anything to believe in, nothing to feel safe knowing. And i don't mean the whole going into heaven thing, just knowing that there is something beyond the stuff you see and feel.

Put yourself in the position of something like God for a second, think about what would give you the most joy, showing people your amazing powers and making everybody worship you, or seeing what they do by themselves, growing and learning, Even though i don't have a child or something it can be likend to what those that do have them feel from what i have seen and heard from these people, they just like to see this person experience life, come up with their own thoughts and dreams,this can be seen as what this omnipotent being, or as i think, the universe is actually something that is conscience, and we as people or anything are part of. So doing anything that takes away from that like proving you exist will destroy what you want the people to do, to grow and learn.

But all that matters is that you live a good life, nothing else matters, respecting and helping those around you gives you a hapiness which can't really be explained logically, helping one person in the human race does not affect its existance, doing it so they will do something in return is not something that would give you joy, if you only believe in logic then helping your fellow man is not always logical, so how does it make you feel better.

Also that thing that Pgreg said about asking people who created god. The point is he wasn't created, it is that he always existed and always will, it is based on faith, so when you ask that question of people they have to respond logically to something that they don't use logic to understand. Plus using something taught in science can hardly say anything but logic rules.

Religion and Science are really not direct opposites as they are made out to be by so many. Yes Religion is based on faith and Science is based on logic but it is not logical to use something that can't explain something to explain something. Logically it is impossible to completely prove something. So if you can't completely prove God doesn't exist and it can't explain why god doesn't exist then saying logic proves it doesn''t exist is not logical.
Science only tries to explain something logically, it doesn't say anything not logical is wrong.

And think of this, Buddhism is to my understanding a religion based on alot of logic. I prefer Buddhism to other religions but i don't really follow it, i agree with some of what it says. The church in cristianity says what christianity is, not the church follows it really. But it depends whether Religion is something based on following God or a thought that is followed by people. If it's the latter then atheism is actually religion and if thats so then also Atheism is no less faith then other religions, it is a faith that God does not exist, it is explained by logic but religion is also explained by what people feel when they do things and feel things, yes more has been included to make it more but the principal of all religions is the same, be kind to your fellow man and remember we are all connected, whether it be by god or logically since we are all human.
 

smashattack

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A response.

My counter question to this is, "Who created God?"...This usually gets no response.
If I may...

The big bang theory states that the universe was compacted into a tiny little dot. All the mass of the universe was in this dot. It exploded and created the universe (as well as our solar system).

Where did the little dot come from? What (or Who, as the case may be) created that dot?

I usually don't get a response.
 

Crono

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You fool, smashattack.

Smashattack, I could have sworn you told all of us that you would never come back here again.

*cough* Here's your response. This time, pay attention.

Originally posted by Crono way back in September in the "Big Bang an excuse blah blah" topic
Man has a difficult time grasping the concept of something existing forever. Man is surrounded with evidence that everything has a creator, and that everything, even the creator, could not have always existed. So you really do have to go out on a tangent to believe all the energy and mass of the Universe has always existed. Is it difficult to grasp? Of course. Can it be grasped? Of course. The first law of thermodynamics states mass and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one to the other. This obviously applies today, so why would a universal law not apply x years ago? As long as time is objectively real (and it is becoming more and more evident that this is so), then this should hold true. Universal laws don't just change. Universal laws are constants, so they are the same everywhere in the Universe and everywhen in the Universe.

So mass/energy has always existed. Time and time again the Universe has imploded (big crunch) and exploded (big bang), never losing any of its mass. The same mass that exists today is the same mass that existed at the "beginning" of time (though such a beginning does not exist). And as it has been said, the Big Bang that is referred to so much was a reconfiguration of the Universe, not a creation.
You know, this isn't the only place where this Oscillating Universe theory was stated. I'm sure Bee said it in some topic, and actually, I posted about it 2 or 3 times in different debates. How can you say no one has made a reply to your question? There have been so many responses to it, you just continue to ignore the information that we give you.

Note: Matter is finite; space is infinite.
 

SilencedViolence

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If reality is what my mind percieves, then I might
Re: A response.

Originally posted by smashattack
If I may...

The big bang theory states that the universe was compacted into a tiny little dot. All the mass of the universe was in this dot. It exploded and created the universe (as well as our solar system).

Where did the little dot come from? What (or Who, as the case may be) created that dot?

I usually don't get a response.
Yeah... Chrono's explanation works. I can't remember how the negative energy of gravity explanation goes... and I don't feel like typing it out. So... I'll just argue against smashattack's point:

So in other words, your religion says that energy cannot be created (for the big bang) but energy can be created for the existance of a more complex being??? That makes no sense, and if you argue that God has existed forever, then we can argue that our universe's enegy has existed forever, except for the existance of energy has a higher probability of being true, since for god to exist as he is has a low probabilty... What would make him the way he is? What shut out the other possibilities for god and for just plain energy?

In conclusiopn, if you argue god has always existed, it is far more probable that the universe's energy has always existed in the same way, so we're either both wrong or the non-god version is by probability correct more often, since there are many more arrangements that would say energy existed then an arrangement where a specific god existed.
___________

Anyway... BL... your right... my statements can be somewhat confusing... and I decided to add some stupidity to my post so to hopefully not offend you... but anyway... I got the info I was looking for about you not believing in god.

Anyway... BBT has taken care of the situation well... and I think his explanations make sense. It seems that you just lost something you depended on. I don't think I'll dwell into that further... since, as I said, BBT is handling that and since he is not as confusing as me, it is best for him to keep handling it without any more of my interuptions.
___________

Anyway, I don't see how theists do not see the simplicity behind their religion. You cannot imagine what it would be like without life after death since you have always been tought that something occurs... since childhood. Therefore, you can not think otehrwise. Also, you have attached the concept of eternity to your thought process. Why? Well simply because as far as you can remember, you have always been thinking, and still are, so along with theistical ideas, the concept of your thoughts being chemicals that will not always function has been shut out. Also, this concept seems to a reaction in theists because: 1. it would destroy the security provided by your religion and 2. it would ruin the make you feel bad about the way you have a short lifespan, which no one wishes that enjoys life to any extent.

Anyway... uh... have fun... debating...
 

Sith Lord

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It's all been done before.

I was born an atheist, and I am still one to this day. However, throughout my life, I have studied the other religions of the world, both past and present. The problem with religion for me is that it has all been done before. Every religion believes that it is the correct one, even though there are thousands of others in the world. I just don't see how there can be one absolute religion that governs them all. Also, on the topic of Christianity, I think that it is just another religiou "fad", soon to be replaced by another religion. Just look at history for numerous examples of this, i.e. the Greeks, the Romans, etc.
 

Ice Fisher

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One thing I've really wondered about aetheists is how they can live like this. If your an aetheist what happens when you die? According to aethesists you just die and nothing happens. But if your a Christian you believe you go to heaven and live forever. My logic for being a Christian is:
I would rather live my whole life believing there was a God and die and find out there wasn't then live my whole life believing there wasn't a God and die and find out there was. In the first part of that statement nothing happens and in the other one you go to ****. Which one sounds better?
 

Gligar_Man

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religion is the corruption of faith...
when i die, im going to die, it will be over, nothing will happen, i will not care because i will cease to exist...
i think if you are weak, and cannot cope with failing to be of anything but a memory youll never know, then you will find religion... and then ull die and nothing will happen, and youll have wasted so much time doing things, but then again, youll never know, so no one really has pity on you...
 

Bowser87

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Originally posted by Ice Fisher
One thing I've really wondered about aetheists is how they can live like this. If your an aetheist what happens when you die? According to aethesists you just die and nothing happens. But if your a Christian you believe you go to heaven and live forever. My logic for being a Christian is:
I would rather live my whole life believing there was a God and die and find out there wasn't then live my whole life believing there wasn't a God and die and find out there was. In the first part of that statement nothing happens and in the other one you go to ****. Which one sounds better?
I wouldn't believe in a god that sends everyone that doesn't believe in him in hèll. The logic is: It's better living as an atheist, not wasting time time for praying and going to church, enjoying every second of your life, living freely, not caring about another entity that decides your destiny, than believing in god, putting all your faith in something that might not even exist and praying to it in vain.

So far, Aldogg666 has made the best point.
 

Ice Fisher

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Originally posted by Bowser87
I wouldn't believe in a god that sends everyone that doesn't believe in him in hèll. The logic is: It's better living as an atheist, not wasting time time for praying and going to church, enjoying every second of your life, living freely, not caring about another entity that decides your destiny, than believing in god, putting all your faith in something that might not even exist and praying to it in vain.
But if you enjoy all of your life for what 100 years at max and then die and if there is a God then you'll spend eternity burning up in **** and never dying but being in relentless suffering. And about God sending people who don't believe in him to ****. All throughout the Bible it says that although God is a loving God , he is also a just God, meaning that he seeks justice. We should all be sent to **** because we all do things wrong but God loved us a lot that he gave us a way out. But he doesn't want to force us to love him, he gives us a choice.
 

Gligar_Man

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obviously ere pretty set in our ways to beloieve there is not such a god... there are 412 proven contradictions/false points in the king james version of the christian bible... for whatever reason you find excuses for every single thing that is wrong, to atheists, theists are completely rong in there beliefs and just wasting time, to theists, atheists are just people that have not been saved or accepted jesus, and find it so baffling that even if there only a .01% (even i believe you are 100% or whatever you are its just i.e. i am not insulting your faith) but even if there is a .01% chance there is a god it would be worth it to just pray and go to church and pretend to believe it in case... so you dont suffer sch a great consequence, well that is some of the fuel that scares people into theism... the horrible HORRIBLE conseuqences of something so bad you can only imagine it in your head and then you cannot even beging to comprehend it, etc. alot of people are scared into theism and dont want to believe it IMO (budhism/etc. aside, where the equivalent of **** is reincarnation, but there not the equivalent, just gotta try, try again, :p) anyways, so while atheist people believe whole heartidly in the falseness of this, its 2 different kinds of people... i dont believe there is a heaven or a ****, i dont believe in reincarnation... i just believe in life, and life ends... you have to let it go... you cant grasp onto the fear of an eternity in an unbelievable torture or an eternity of bliss where you shall never die... personally somehting that strikes me as funny as if you believe you have a soul you will in a sence live forever... o_O oh well... my thoughts...
 

Bowser87

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Well although I'm atheist and don't believe in god, I was taught he was a good god, and that, at the end, whatever you did on earth, he would offer his pardon. Also, I don't see why he would find it wrong if people don't believe in him. Just look at the world, right now. Death, destruction, poverty, etc. It is plainly normal not to believe in him with what we've got. And that's part of why I don't believe he exists.
 

Ice Fisher

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Bowser87, you are misinformed about God. God will only allow all your wrong doings to go away if you accept that you do wrong things and ask him to forgive you. God doesn't do anything if we don't ask. Please if you are going to argue against our faith you should know what we believe, and if we argue against your beliefs we should know what you believe.
 

Bowser87

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Who said that god acted that way? It's just a conception of god. And besides, what I said isn't really far from you've just mentionned. And I learned in my religion course at school this year, so I do know about your religion, and some others too.
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Ice Fisher- The argument you are using is known as Pascal's Wager. It is horrendously fallacious, and you should be embarassed for using it.

Why are we only considering your god? Could we not change the wager like this?

I would rather live my whole life believing there was Allah and die and find out there wasn't then live my whole life believing there wasn't Allah and die and find out there was. In the first part of that statement nothing happens and in the other one you go to ****. Which one sounds better?

Couldn't we alter your wager like that, to make belief in Yahweh a bad thing? And wouldn't we have to include every other god? and what about hypothetical gods that might punish you for worshipping any other god? What you've done is made a false dichotomy. There are some religions out there that won't punish Atheists, but will punish actual worshippers of other gods. In that case, atheism is preferable to Christianity. This leaves your logic worthless, but I'm sure you'll stay a Christian even though I have just ripped the logical foundation for your beliefs out from under you.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html#pascal

read it.

-B
 
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