Originally posted by smashattack
I was under the impression that several people thought in this way. But if that's not true, I will dismiss it.
I've never heard anyone make this claim in my entire life, and if someone did I would think they were pretty stupid. About the closest you might get would be someone saying that a Christian can never be "as happy" or something of the sort but even that is hogwash IMHO.
I totally see your point here, but must ask how atheism is any different. After all, isn't atheism saying that you only have one life, you should make the most of it since you're going to be nonexistent for the majority of eternity? Atheism can be just as demeaning, not only to yourself, but to others, simply because if one takes the "live life to fullest" idea, it seems as though one is worrying only about one's self and not how others are treated.
Saying that you only get one life is completely non-demeaning. It says that your life is valuable, and you need to make the most of it. Eternity in heaven makes your life on earth meaningless. It doesn't make someone happy to be an immoral loner in life, so of course "living life to its fullest" does not mean becoming one.
Now I know nobody really tries to be immoral (whatever their set of moral beliefs are), nor do they want to hurt anybody. But it seems to me as though atheism is a "everything is up for grabs" kind of life. Get what you can when possible, because you'll only have one chance.
I'm really puzzled as to how you can see a worldview that says to make the most of your life as a bad thing.
As far as the quote you made, I understand your point again. But please keep in mind that, while the Bible states we are all sinners, it never says we are worthless. Suppose once again that a deity does exist. Do you think that you would be equal to it? No, because obviously any existing deity is much more powerful and intelligent than any mortal. Remember, this is supposing one does exist.
If a deity exists, of course humans are not 'equal' to it. but Christianity is worse than just "we're good, but God is infinitely good so by comparison we're worthless". Christianity says "we're inherently
evil, terrible people, who are fully deserving of eternal torture but God is just such a nice guy that he is bothering to help us worthless sacks of ****." This viewpoint only comes out in fundamentalism, of course. Fundamentalists tend to have no problems using colorful language to describe the depths of our ****tiness. Other Christians have the same core belief, but tend to only go so far as "we're all sinners", reluctant to say we deserve ****.
Also, suppose you were worthless (as well as I, everybody on these boards, and the entire world). Would we, as a race, be too prideful to accept any help from a god/dess? Or could we accept the fact that we do need help?
I'm sure some people would, and some people wouldn't. We certainly never make decisions "as a race".
In saying this, I'm under the impression you think Christians don't feel any regret or loss from those who suffer eternal punishment. Your knowledge of religion seems to be limited (as well as my knowledge of atheists), and so I want to know why you think this. Nobody, not even the "tyrant" Yahweh, enjoys seeing people punished.
You really should read the works of historic Christian apologists. People like St. Augustine and Aquinas discuss in their apologetics how much of the enjoyment from Heaven will come from watching sinners in **** with delight. No modern Christian dares come to such a conclusion, of course. It does seem like some of the fundamentalists out there are very much looking forward to their "i told you so" moment. I would definitely argue with your assertion thayt "nobody" enjoys watching punishment. I do not, however, believe that most Christians enjoy it. What I don't understand is how Christians can even function in their day to day lives with such an unsettling belief. My brother is a fundamentalist. He probably thinks I'm going to ****. What I don't understand is how he can go through life, seeing me every day, talking to me, as if nothing's wrong. Something's wrong! I'm going to be punished for eternity! I just feel like if I held that belief, it would be such an important thing I would find that every time I saw a non-Christian, I would be unable to think of anything except their eternal fate. If they were my friend, it would make me terribly sad. I truly cannot understand how you can function.
I think you misunderstand how **** works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though you think God sends people to ****. Many atheists seem to forget that there are two sides to this. Good being God, evil being Satan. Satan is the one taking people to ****, not necessarily God. While the Bible does say that God punishes people, I believe that the Holy Book refers mostly to punishment as almost being self-inflicted. As in, a disbelieving person is not necessarily condemned by God, but by himself.
Forgive me for being rude, but that is absolutely ridiculous.
First of all, Satan is a ridiculous belief. Why doesn't God just destroy Satan, right now? What's stopping him?
Secondly, God is supposed to be omnipotent. NOTHING that happens isn't God's responsibility. Because God can do ANYTHING, any outcome of any scenario happens because God chose that outcome. In this case, there are two outcomes: Person is saved, or Satan takes person to ****. God is capable of choosing the outcome, and it doesn't take any effort at all to do so. If Satan takes the soul to ****, it is only because God chose not to save the person. God is responsible for EVERYTHING. It is impossible to say that an event is not the fault of an omnipotent entity.
Well, the same goes for me with atheism. I truly cannot imagine becoming nonexistent. Honestly, the idea frightens me, and to think that I will never see my friends, family, or pets again is truly unsettling. I understand your view on Christianity and ****, and I hope you can understand mine on atheism and the idea of nonexistence after death.
So the idea that your friends and family will cease to exist is unsettling, but the idea that some of your friends and family (along with
the majority of the entire world) being punished for eternity isn't? I definitely don't understand that.
You didn't exist for billions of years before you were born. When you die, think of it as being "unborn". Being nonexistent didn't bother you before you were born...
I find the atheist view of death to be a good one. Ceasing to exist certainly isn't a good fate- but the great thing about it is, you no longer exist to complain about it. You can't be unhappy if you don't exist.
Hmmm... I suppose the second question mostly reflects what I was looking for. What I actually meant was, if a god existed, would you discontinue believing simply because you disagreed? That question is a little different from the one you thought I asked, so please feel free to answer it.
I don't "believe" based on emotions. I believe based on facts. If a god existed, I would still not believe in one- until that god's existence were proven to me with evidence. If I was shown evidence, I would believe. I don't have a choice in the matter- I believe what is demonstrated to be true, and disbelieve what isn't. Perhaps the real question is would I worship it- Let's assume the God we're talking about is Yahweh. Yes, I would, because I don't see any value in having principles while being punished for eternity. I do know plenty of people who would not worship Yahweh even if they thought he existed. He has done some pretty heinous things, after all (see: Old Testament).
Again, I feel you misunderstand certain aspects of Christianity. I wonder exactly what you mean by "kiss His *** for all of eternity". Do you mean to say that you think going to heaven means one becomes a slave? To do the bidding of a fierce, tyrannical deity? That's certainly wrong. Heaven is described as a place with "streets of gold", with no more tears or pain.
Many Christians believe that Heaven is a constant worshipfest. Many seem to think of it as eternal enjoyment, perhaps a perpetual orgasm. Many think it is talking about the Kingdom
on Earth with Christ reigning as king for a thousand years. There are a lot of interpretations of Heaven, because Scripture is not at all clear on the matter.
On another note, the idea of "no more tears or pain" seems impossible. Do you no longer have any will? If you do, how do you avoid being unhappy knowing your friend Joe is roasting for all of eternity? If you take the story of Lazarus literally, of course, you may even believe that in Heaven you'll be able to
see your friend roasting in ****. And you'll still be happy? No tears upon seeing that? It's just another part of Christianity that makes no sense. The "no will" option is the only one that makes sense, which is of course what leads to the conclusion that Heaven must be nothing more than slavery and constant worship.
Please explain to me why people think that sounds like eternal torment. I don't understand where these ideas are coming from.
Plenty of people think eternal
anything is eternal torment, because an eternity of anything will eventually get boring. It is, after all, eternity.
Some people think that it is more worthwhile to live this life to the fullest and embrace ****? Why? ****, if real, is eternal. A human lifespan is usually no longer than 120 years. **** extremely outweighs the experience of life. Again, please explain.
These people probably are taking the worshipfest interpretation of Heaven. And since they think Yahweh is a terrible, cruel deity (see: Old Testament, plus the whole **** concept even in the present), an eternity of worshipping Yahweh is **** anyway. Remember, I'm not one of these people.
Fyre Ball, there's really nothing I can do to investigate your miracle claim, but I will try to bring up some examples of the same tired "Crying statue/picture" in different religions to show that at least some people must be faking such a miracle. Just that this research will have to occur at a time other than 2:57 AM.
-B