The 2006-2008 Tier list

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Nah, Jigglypuff owns Mario and Doc equally for the same reasons.

 

[Naota-Kun]

Ok there is ****ing proof that lower tier characters are dependent on who plays them, this % of winning stuff is bull****.

The best freaking Kirby in the world would have a rough time against ken's kirby, the only possible reason that the best kirby would win is because they know how to ko/use kirby more than Ken does. That is pure 100% proof that low tier characters HAVE to be based on mindgames in order to be played nearly as well as top tier characters. The tier list is basically a scale ratio of tech skill to mindgames.

There is several ways this stuff works depending on who vs. who:

1. 2 foxes equal tech skill, the one with more mindgames will win
2. 2 kirbys, equal mindgames, the one with more techskill will win
3. low vs top (since I used kirby and fox I'll use them for this example), whoever is better with what their character is based on will win.

This is why people who play low tiers lose, not neccessarily because low tiers suck (you can call it a disadvantage that they don't have as much skills that can be utilized usefully), but rather because they are focused on how to use their character more than tricks (mindgames), which is what low tiers feed off of to replace lack of skills.

And not to bring my fox fanboy background into this, but I'm absolutely tired of people who have one-sided arguements about how fox is 'easy, cheap, broken.' He is way too ****ing overrated.

Until someone gets it through their head FOX IS THE MOST COMBOABLE/CHAINTHROWABLE CHARACTER IN THE GAME. On top of that he is one of the LIGHTEST CHARACTERS. its not that hard to **** fox if you just stop *****ing about it and do something. Reason I'm bringing this up, this is a discussion on tiers and I'm not attacking anyone specifically, but the crowd of anti-fox players (not that it makes my argument any less random.)

How do I know this? I play my cousins all the time, and believe me we're not nooby, we've got quite a few things down. One of my cousin's isn't much better than me, but he can **** my fox with ganon. He ****ing fairs me to death (do you know how bad fair ***** fox?). Yet he will complain when I do something such as shinespike him, regardless of percentage (and unless he does something such as down bs off stage or accidently jumps off stage its always a ko or nearly ko worthy percentage that he dies.)

On a list of my arguements to why shinespike isn't cheap, I'd like to add one thing. Shinespike isn't applicable in all situations. For example, if you are above the stage and recovering a shinespike won't do much to you (it would have to be repeated= oppurtunity to avoid it).

What is my point by all of this? fox=over-rated= if the tierlist was based on more than just tourney stats, fox should be lower.

And since I'm bringing this up why do a lot of people say fox is the hardest character to use. Keep in mind a lot of the people that say this don't main or play fox. Then there is a group that says fox is the easiest character, etc. My question is more directed toward the fact that why isn't there even anyone in between? Why is it either hardest or easiest?

Well, no **** Sherlock. Who said these ratios are guaranteed?These just determine the facts of a characters potential at best meaning you know exactly every trick for the character to pull of in battle to their benefit. It's not like Fox is gonna beat DK all the times (if you seen Captain Jack pull it off so many times) and we've seen Ken struggle with Peach players despite Marth having the advantage over Peach. Hell, I am an advent Pichu player and periodically destroy Fox and Falco players who are decent with the character and even occassionally Marth and Sheik in the same manner (**** you, Marth! Fight like a man and go mano y mano!).

 

[BigRick]

And since I'm bringing this up why do a lot of people say fox is the hardest character to use. Keep in mind a lot of the people that say this don't main or play fox. Then there is a group that says fox is the easiest character, etc. My question is more directed toward the fact that why isn't there even anyone in between? Why is it either hardest or easiest?

Ppl either say hardest or easiest because they don't talk about the same thing.

When they say that Fox is the hardest to use, they talk about tech skill. Fox is the character that requires the most tech skill... you gotta have sum fast fingers to pull off the advanced stuff with him.

But when you get those tech skills down, which isn't that hard to do (just develop your muscle memory), he becomes one of the easier characters to use because of his brokeness. He simply has more viable options than the majority of the cast.

 

[controlfreak7]

Ppl either say hardest or easiest because they don't talk about the same thing.

When they say that Fox is the hardest to use, they talk about tech skill. Fox is the character that requires the most tech skill... you gotta have sum fast fingers to pull off the advanced stuff with him.

But when you get those tech skills down, which isn't that hard to do (just develop your muscle memory), he becomes one of the easier characters to use because of his brokeness. He simply has more viable options than the majority of the cast.

Well that makes a lot of sense, but if he requires the most effort shouldn't that balance out the benefit of using him?

The only thing that troubles me about the second thing (one of the easier characters), is once you get down any character's tech skills don't they become easy as well, with this wouldn't that still mean he is the hardest to use no matter what according to your second point?

Also isn't learning how to avoid with him part of the reason, don't count on this, but I believe that (not 100% sure) that the King made one of his points as why fox is the hardest to use because of (what I said earlier) how easily he gets stuck in combos. This being the reason why he should be lower, and why tourney stats is a bad thing to base a tier list off of, because most people main him, so tourneys are basically made up of fox and falco players and that is why they are going to end up at the top.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That makes no sense. Tournies are the best way to see what is and is not effecttive. If a character is not effective in a tourney then they won't be played as much. Fox is played alot because he is such a beast. When game first comes out everyone is played equally for the most part. As things are discovered people find out who is the best and what viable strats there are.

Certain characters just have better options then the others. You make it sound like because Fox is picked alot in tournies that makes him a monster. Sorry, but no. It's the other way around.

He's a monster and that's why he is picked. I main Marth and I would love if Fox went down on the tiers. But tiers don't change how good a character is. Tiers if anything are more of an acknowledgement of how good a character is. Regardless of the placing that is given to Fox he is still a monster. People should learn to deal with it.

 

[NJ'zFinest]

^^^

I 100% agree; nice post EL

 

[cb_marth]

Nah, Jigglypuff owns Mario and Doc equally for the same reasons.

I agree with you 100%. Although I like Mario much more then the Doc.

 

[controlfreak7]

That makes no sense. Tournies are the best way to see what is and is not effecttive. If a character is not effective in a tourney then they won't be played as much. Fox is played alot because he is such a beast. When game first comes out everyone is played equally for the most part. As things are discovered people find out who is the best and what viable strats there are.

Certain characters just have better options then the others. You make it sound like because Fox is picked alot in tournies that makes him a monster. Sorry, but no. It's the other way around.

He's a monster and that's why he is picked. I main Marth and I would love if Fox went down on the tiers. But tiers don't change how good a character is. Tiers if anything are more of an acknowledgement of how good a character is. Regardless of the placing that is given to Fox he is still a monster. People should learn to deal with it.

Nah you really don't get it. Lets pretend there is like 10 top tier players in the whole world. THe rest play low tiers, who is going to be higher on the list? I never said that they change how good a character is btw, I just implied fox is overrated, the only reason he is on top of the tiers is because there are so many fox players. Why do you think sheik was at the very top and now has dropped below falco and falco has moved quite a few steps up? The tiers are simply put a popularity contest. Lets ****ing see how fox does in tourneys if DK is a more common character.

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Sheik was moved down because Sheik didn't fair as well in tournaments than before.

 

[controlfreak7]

Sheik was moved down because Sheik didn't fair as well in tournaments than before.

lol =P. No sheik moved down because sheik became less common as fox and falco became more common. (cause falco and fox own sheik and there were lots of sheiks). As more counters appear the character(s) being countered decrease. So all it takes to change the tier list is more peaches, DKs, Marths.

 

[cb_marth]

lol =P. No sheik moved down because sheik became less common as fox and falco became more common. (cause falco and fox own sheik and there were lots of sheiks). As more counters appear the character(s) being countered decrease. So all it takes to change the tier list is more peaches, DKs, Marths.

I agree what your saying there. Bring some great points there, Sheik has some great combos though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How do you think Fox became popular? Not because he owns shiek because that match up is even. He became popular because he is a beast and a good character to use.

And yes, Shiek stopped winning alot of tournies and moved down as a result. Plus previous tier list were based more on theory and not so much on tourney results. Hence her higher placing on previous lists. The tier list is not a popularity contests. That's a contradiction to the fact that the characters BECAME POPULAR due to the fact that they win tournies.

A tier list can't be a popularity contest simply because that isn't what the list is about. It's about who the most effective chracters are at the highest level of play. It matters not that every character can combo fox when he can do far worse combos to them and shinespike them, play rush down, etc.

Using DK as a counter argument makes it sound like you are saying DK is better. Well, umm he's not. In reality the only character that a person could really say is better then Fox is Falco. Maybe Shiek. But that's pretty much it. Besides the top 5 characters are basically equal in terms of effectiveness anyway.

As I said before the list is merely an acknowledgement of how good someone is. The list doesn't make someone good. Putting someone higher or lower on the list won't change thier abilities, match ups, combos, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need to get over the fact that certain characters wil always be better then others. We could make a list with Fox at the bottom, but he would still be great. Tiers exist. Whether or not there is a list is meaningless.

I love how you keep trying to make arguments against Fox, but you aren't mentioning anything that people don't already know.

Do you think Fox isn't good? Compared to whom exactly? And why? You must know that Fox is better then the majority of the cast right?

Well, allow me to reiterate. Fox is a beast. I will elaborate.

He is fast.
He has incredible comboability.
Good knockback on his kill moves.
Good aerials for both killing and comboing.
A good edgeguarding game.
He has the shine. ( This alone makes him uber)
He can shinespike for 0% kills.
He has VERY little lag.
He's an extremely safe character.
His shine makes shield grabbing useless against him.
He has a good grab game.
His neutral aerial is very abusable and cheap. (Look at M2K for proof)

There is more of course. But that's the noticable stuff off the top of my head.

Stop saying the tier list is a popularity contest plz. It makes no sense what so ever and only serves to make you look foolish. Not trying to offend you. I'm trying to enlighten you.

By the way Falco went ahead of Shiek because he is so cheap with his lasers, combos and shines, much like Fox. Falco has no bad match ups really. He either has advantage or goes even. Only IC's can be considered to have advantage. And they have to grab him which is friggin hard to do.

 

[leafgreen386]

On the "popularity contest" thing, you're both right.

When a character is proven to be better, more people play them, thus they rise in poularity, and as more people prove that character's good, that character rises in the tier list. It's all related.

(I bet you expected me to make a much longer and more meaningful post, didn't you?)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Indeed it's related. My point was that it's when a character has been proven to be good that they become popular, not the other way around.

Your post illustrates this perfectly.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I wouldn't so much say Sheik moved down in the list as Fox and Falco moved up. I really haven't noticed people paying Sheik any more or less respect then they used to since the new list came out, its just that Fox/Falco have both gotten alot more popular, and alot of players have been shifting their sites to them.

 

[Eci4]

Someone asked me today why pikachu is so low, and I can explain why characters like GaW are so low, or why Ness is low, but I couldn't figure out pikachu... is it mostly because he can't combo so well? and if so, how does that warrant being bottom of low tier

 

[Aiser]

Hey guys did you know sheik can chain grab pikachu.

 

[Eci4]

Aiser I didn't know that, but can't she chain grab marth too?

subsequently, sheik has been moving down, and if sheik is the only thing keeping pika down, doesnt that mean pika should be moving up?

I really dont know, but I couldn't figure out what to say when asked about it

 

[Aiser]

she can chain him to like 30% or so. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Often times a character is placed low simply because they aren't as good as other characters. Anyway I don't know much about pikachu, but I'll just guess.

I would say because he is weaker, more laggy, and has less devastatinjg combos then the others. And he doesn't have a really cheap tactic he can rely on. Marth's fair camping and d-tilt camping, Peaches float cancel, Space animals shine, and Shieks needles come to mind.

 

[Eci4]

Often times a character is placed low simply because they aren't as good as other characters. Anyway I don't know much about pikachu, but I'll just guess.

I would say because he is weaker, more laggy, and has less devastatinjg combos then the others. And he doesn't have a really cheap tactic he can rely on. Marth's fair camping and d-tilt camping, Peaches float cancel, Space animals shine, and Shieks needles come to mind.

But hes bottom of low tier, he is barely making it out of bottom tier... Pikachu has a good kill move in his up smash, he has speed, he is lacking in the air though as most of his moves are laggy... I understand why he isn't top tier or anything, and I understand he doesnt have an abusable tactic, but pikachu does have some moves... I mean, I think he should at least be above young link...

It might just be the fact that no one has really dominated with pikachu (or have they, I'm not completly sure, I really don't know much bout pika in competetive smash myself)

 

[NJzFinest]

Someone asked me today why pikachu is so low, and I can explain why characters like GaW are so low, or why Ness is low, but I couldn't figure out pikachu... is it mostly because he can't combo so well? and if so, how does that warrant being bottom of low tier

Pikachu, as a character
Most of Pika's moves involve him using his body to land a hit on the opponent. Since he's very small, he must get closer than most foes (who can stick out an arm, leg, or weapon). Diving in with an attack or trading hits in the air can easily end with the opponent hitting him with a longer reaching attack. Also because his lack of range, it's very hard to land combos (and consider the fact that Pikachu isn't even much of a comboer).

Pikachu is one of the lightest in the game. 19 Characters are heavier than him. Only one character is as heavy as him. He's only heavier than 5 other characters.

His poor grab range makes him a poor shield grabber...well, generally, it makes him have trouble getting characters in a grab, period. Pikachu's grab range only beats Bowser and Pichu.

Pikachu in tournaments
Pikachu players are known for doing poorly in tournaments, which can be explained due to the fact that there aren't many good players who use Pikachu and that Pikachu isn't that great. It isn't very surprising that he's low tier.

 

[REØ]

Also Pika has the smallest shield just shouting it out.[/randomness]

 

[mood4food77]

doesn't pichu or g&w have smaller sheilds

anyway, only certain people do good with a low tier character because it's just that person like dire, chu, azen, bum, neo, and taj for examples, since when do you see another person do good with low tier characters besides them, it's just hard and should be used as counterpick characters, not as tournament mains

 

[cb_marth]

I agree, I think it has a lot to do with the person and how they play with a certain character.

 

[REØ]

Nope Pichu's shield is slightly bigger than Pika's and GAW's shield, I can't really tell who's shield is smaller between GAW and Pika they are literally about the same. I've just went through the process with those 3 characters using the wavebird function. But for now I'm going with GAW and Pika for the smallest shield tied in first.

 

[cb_marth]

Huh cool, I never knew that some sheilds were bigger or smaller then other characters. I never really noticed.

 

[NJzFinest]

Huh cool, I never knew that some sheilds were bigger or smaller then other characters. I never really noticed.

You never pressed L or R with Bowser?

 

[REØ]

Yes Bowser's shield stands out the most.(after all he does have the largest shield) If you lightshield with Bowser his shield is hella lot huge.

 

[Naota-Kun]

Isn't Mewtwo lighter than Pikachu, though?

 

[mood4food77]

mewtwo is not as light as people think, he's just a bit heavier than roy and falco, like 1 less

 

[Naota-Kun]

I guess you have a point but still Pikachu survives slightly higher than Mewtwo in terms of vertical endurance. Pikachu's Vertical Endurance is comparible with Ice Climbers.

 

[mood4food77]

yea, it's somewhere around there

people think mewtwo is incredibly light because of his size

pika's vertical endurance i think is less than the ICs

 

[Naota-Kun]

Atcually it was both about equal but DI can come to effect if they are different. Check out the topic yourself. I find Game & watch has an incredibly bad weight for his size, too, and his shield doesn't help much, either.

 

[controlfreak7]

How do you think Fox became popular? Not because he owns shiek because that match up is even. He became popular because he is a beast and a good character to use.

And yes, Shiek stopped winning alot of tournies and moved down as a result. Plus previous tier list were based more on theory and not so much on tourney results. Hence her higher placing on previous lists. The tier list is not a popularity contests. That's a contradiction to the fact that the characters BECAME POPULAR due to the fact that they win tournies.

A tier list can't be a popularity contest simply because that isn't what the list is about. It's about who the most effective chracters are at the highest level of play. It matters not that every character can combo fox when he can do far worse combos to them and shinespike them, play rush down, etc.

Using DK as a counter argument makes it sound like you are saying DK is better. Well, umm he's not. In reality the only character that a person could really say is better then Fox is Falco. Maybe Shiek. But that's pretty much it. Besides the top 5 characters are basically equal in terms of effectiveness anyway.

As I said before the list is merely an acknowledgement of how good someone is. The list doesn't make someone good. Putting someone higher or lower on the list won't change thier abilities, match ups, combos, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need to get over the fact that certain characters wil always be better then others. We could make a list with Fox at the bottom, but he would still be great. Tiers exist. Whether or not there is a list is meaningless.

I love how you keep trying to make arguments against Fox, but you aren't mentioning anything that people don't already know.

Do you think Fox isn't good? Compared to whom exactly? And why? You must know that Fox is better then the majority of the cast right?

Well, allow me to reiterate. Fox is a beast. I will elaborate.

He is fast.
He has incredible comboability.
Good knockback on his kill moves.
Good aerials for both killing and comboing.
A good edgeguarding game.
He has the shine. ( This alone makes him uber)
He can shinespike for 0% kills.
He has VERY little lag.
He's an extremely safe character.
His shine makes shield grabbing useless against him.
He has a good grab game.
His neutral aerial is very abusable and cheap. (Look at M2K for proof)

There is more of course. But that's the noticable stuff off the top of my head.

Stop saying the tier list is a popularity contest plz. It makes no sense what so ever and only serves to make you look foolish. Not trying to offend you. I'm trying to enlighten you.

By the way Falco went ahead of Shiek because he is so cheap with his lasers, combos and shines, much like Fox. Falco has no bad match ups really. He either has advantage or goes even. Only IC's can be considered to have advantage. And they have to grab him which is friggin hard to do.

K let me requote each part of your post to let you know what I'm talking about.

How do you think Fox became popular? Not because he owns shiek because that match up is even. He became popular because he is a beast and a good character to use.

There is a ton of people who would disagree with the statement that fox vs. sheik is even. Even if it was even it would be the closest thing to a counter fox sheik. (along with ICs).

And yes, Shiek stopped winning alot of tournies and moved down as a result. Plus previous tier list were based more on theory and not so much on tourney results. Hence her higher placing on previous lists. The tier list is not a popularity contests. That's a contradiction to the fact that the characters BECAME POPULAR due to the fact that they win tournies.

The question to this is why sheik moved down? Not cause she was overrated, but because of Fox and Falcos growing popularity. And I don't literally mean the tier list is a popularity contest, but that popularity will definitely give characters higher spots. This is because much more of the same character are in tournaments and therefore it is hard to eliminate every single last fox when there is a mass of fox players. The tierlist being a popularity contest and characters that win tournies actually work in unison. The popularity contest just has to be sparked by the character winning a few tourneys. Hence sheik ***** before fox and falco were discovered as a great way of fighting against her, therefore eliminating the sheiks created a path to victory, and that lead to the popularity.

A tier list can't be a popularity contest simply because that isn't what the list is about. It's about who the most effective chracters are at the highest level of play. It matters not that every character can combo fox when he can do far worse combos to them and shinespike them, play rush down, etc.

May I ask then why the tier list is inconsistent? It is because the characters being played at the highest level are changing to be able to counter those that are currently dominating high levels of play. The only death defying combo that fox has is waveshining. U-throw to u-air is great for damaging giving but even though its still works as ko it works much better as damage giving combo. Even then it only works well on a couple characters, such as sheik and marth. I'm not going to lie, fox has some crazy *** combos but to say they are way better than the combos that other characters can do to him is just bull****. Get this ****, assume that your opponent has a ****ing brain, and truly is at a high/competitive level of play. When my cousin didn't try to avoid shine i was 80% consistent in doing it now I'd say I'm 45% consistent in doing it, because instead of *****ing about it he now knows its freaking avoidable. Even then if you even care to notice shinespikes will almost always occur at a percentage where a smash or edgehog to bair will kill your opponent.

Using DK as a counter argument makes it sound like you are saying DK is better. Well, umm he's not. In reality the only character that a person could really say is better then Fox is Falco. Maybe Shiek. But that's pretty much it. Besides the top 5 characters are basically equal in terms of effectiveness anyway.

DK isn't better, but playing him will get rid of a number of fox and falcos. Saying that fox and falco are the two best characters in the game. They don't have the upper advantage in everyone of their matches and in fact can have the lowerhand. But because there is so many of them a player that has a character equal to them will play them so commonly he is going to eventually run into a fox or falco player that is better than him and beats him. This is the effect that popularity has on the tierlist. Fox is a good character, its true but to refer to him as a beast that is taking it too far. This is the way I'm looking at it.

2005- 06: sheik>all. Falco and fox discovered as good against counterpicking her. So Falco and Fox> Sheik. Therefore Falco and Fox grow more popular. Maybe, just maybe this explains why DSF switched from sheik to fox.

2006-present: Falco and Fox dominating, reason being nobody is counterpicking them, they would still be good regardless, but will not do nearly as good as they are now if they were countered.

What can happen: a counter could the answer to lowering fox and falco's tourney statistics. An example is to practice a dk to counterpick them. What this would do is even though people might not main dk, they can practice and secondary him to counterpick any fox/falcos they encounter and then use their main the rest of the way.[/QUOTE]

As I said before the list is merely an acknowledgement of how good someone is. The list doesn't make someone good. Putting someone higher or lower on the list won't change thier abilities, match ups, combos, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need to get over the fact that certain characters wil always be better then others. We could make a list with Fox at the bottom, but he would still be great. Tiers exist. Whether or not there is a list is meaningless.

The list is based off who is ruling in current tournament standings. If the list was about who can potentially be the best everyone is in their right spot I guess, but that isn't what its about, its about how good they are in a play to win environment and this depends on if they are going to be consistently countered or not. And dont' give me this it won't change how good they are because it doesn't matter how good a character is if they aren't given a chance to do good in a tourney. Therefore, it doesn't even matter anymore how good they are.

I know that certain characters are better than others, but it is limited to what and how well the person playing the character can do so with them. Lots of people play fox and most of them aren't so great at doing it people overrate how well fox can do as opposed to how well he would do if he was chosen just as commonly as say i dunno samus. Tiers exist only because there is competition therefore this is what effects thems, the problem is if competition is always the same the tierlist will stay the same. (in other words cause fox is so popular the higher the chance that fox will place higher in tourneys, lets say all characters in a tourney are fox who is going to be place first at that tourney?)

Do you think Fox isn't good? Compared to whom exactly? And why? You must know that Fox is better then the majority of the cast right?

Well, allow me to reiterate. Fox is a beast. I will elaborate.

He is fast.
He has incredible comboability.
Good knockback on his kill moves.
Good aerials for both killing and comboing.
A good edgeguarding game.
He has the shine. ( This alone makes him uber)
He can shinespike for 0% kills.
He has VERY little lag.
He's an extremely safe character.
His shine makes shield grabbing useless against him.
He has a good grab game.
His neutral aerial is very abusable and cheap. (Look at M2K for proof)

There is more of course. But that's the noticable stuff off the top of my head

1. He is fast and very little laggy, but how would he be without being laggy? It would cancel out his speed. They work in unison.

2. He has good comboability but seriously calling it incredible is way too exaggerated.
3. A ko move wouldn't be a ko move without good knockback. (refer to young link who has good knockback on his ONLY real ko move).
4. Bairing the only good edgeguard ko move, even then it doesn't compare that much, but it isn't horrible. Besides that U-air is a good ko move, but it fits into the category of his main ko moves.
5. Edgeguarding game defines ANY good character and any character that can ko well does it best at the edge. Again its not horrible and it is good, but its not incredible (as in it shouldn't be listed as an advantage).

6. This is to anything said about the shine. Ganon, Peach, Link, CF, DK are the only waveshinable characters/ characters that can be comboed well with the shine. Shinespiking 0% kills is a potential not an advantage. Yah you can 0% shinespike a ******* congrats, its avoidable regardless and usually always happens at high percents. This is because that is the only time a GOOD player will be off the stage.

7. Is a character's safety really defined by the character or the person playing the character?
8. I beg to differ about shieldgrabbing being useless. Whenever I shffl dair/shffl nair to shine a shielding opponent they usually grab me (I think it has something to do with characters having 7 frame grabs) before I even shine.

9. Fox can only ct himself and falco and while u-throw to u-air is awesome its not the only thing you need to play him well. In addition there are numerous characters ahead of him in grab game.

10. neutral air? Abusable and cheap. Sure have your opinion, the best part was you refered to M2K. In this very thread M2K was the one saying fox isn't that great. One of his specific reasons was range. nair is outranged by a bunch of other longer ranged moves.

I do know that fox is good, I main him btw. He just has numerous disadvantages that are abusable to other characters. This is why I refer to comboability and chainthrow ability. chainthrows lead to lots of damage and sometimes death. (yah thats a whole freaking stock and its not like it can only happen once). Same with combos if not death they lead into a lot worse damage than chain grabs. Fox is a great character and when mastered he does rank somewhere up there, but this stuff about fox being picked because he is so easy is bull****. Fox has his hard matchups and there is a lot of them and I want that to be known.

Stop saying the tier list is a popularity contest plz. It makes no sense what so ever and only serves to make you look foolish. Not trying to offend you. I'm trying to enlighten you.

By the way Falco went ahead of Shiek because he is so cheap with his lasers, combos and shines, much like Fox. Falco has no bad match ups really. He either has advantage or goes even. Only IC's can be considered to have advantage. And they have to grab him which is friggin hard to do.

I didn't know fools speak the truth, as great as you may think you are at trying to enlighten people you're not, you are actually great at making them think they are more right than they thought. Ultimately speaking, the tierlist is based off a popularity contest. This being because of this chain:

tierlist > tourney results > based off popularity (imbalance of diversity lots of ppl play fox and falco/most people do)

Sheik was at top when most people played her.

You know its really not fair when ppl like you attack the very things that make a character who they are by calling them cheap. SHL isn't cheap its a benefit you get for using and just like everything in the game its avoidable. The arguement should end with the question of is it avoidable. Anything you can avoid isn't cheap end of story. What you said about falco, 'he can go even,' There is a lot of characters that he can go even with so why can't those characters take them out. Maybe because of my theory or more of a fact that there is too many of them, so you are going to run into one that is better than you. ICs aren't the only characters that have an advantage. There is also stage dependent advantages. You also forgot about falco's recovery. And grabbing him with ICs isn't much harder than grabbing other characters, for some matchups ICs don't only have to depend on their grabs.

 

[Citrussed]

Wow. What a long post . That took me ages to read. (ok, maybe just 5 mins )

 

[Samochan]

6. This is to anything said about the shine. Ganon, Peach, Link, CF, DK are the only waveshinable characters/ characters that can be comboed well with the shine. Shinespiking 0% kills is a potential not an advantage. Yah you can 0% shinespike a ******* congrats, its avoidable regardless and usually always happens at high percents. This is because that is the only time a GOOD player will be off the stage.

Uh, so now shinespike is totally impossible unless at high % ? Really no, I just saw our best technician Fox kill our best Falco player on FoD 0-40/50% in span of 1,5-2 seconds. First, as soon as he managed to nail a nair on him on the middle of FoD, he shined, jc that to wavedash and jab (thunders combo), reseting the Falco to do a wakeup and nulling the possibilities of any counterattack, then as soon as it was possible to hit Falco again, ftilted him off stage and shinespiked. There was nothing the Falco player could have done (take account his predictable and easily shinespiked recovery too, firebird wouldn't have made any difference and he needed to jump to possibly reach the ledge with phantasm), not like you could avoid Fox's nair forever on such a small stage or something, especially from someone with same amount of skill and better tech skill, plus faster character. :/ The combo was so fast I can barely remember what the Fox did to push the falco off stage, but my best guess is ftilt. And the Falco player is at the same level, the Fox player is just too technically crazy for his own good.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Hold on a minute. Did someone just suggest that the Shine is overrated? Was I reading that wrong? There is no possible way you can tell me that shinespiking isn't an advantage, and that shine combos are limited to a few characters. Sure you can't "infinite" shine combo certain characters, if thats what you mean, but it is still INCREDIBLY useful. And what's that about shinespiking being too rare an occurence to be helpful? I mean just because you don't get every kill from it, doesn't make it worthless. It is very very useful, and that whole thing about good players not being off the stage, well that's more your fault than theirs. It's up to you too get them off the stage, you can't blame the Shine for not being able to spike when it's really your fault for not getting them set up.

 

[controlfreak7]

Uh, so now shinespike is totally impossible unless at high % ? Really no, I just saw our best technician Fox kill our best Falco player on FoD 0-40/50% in span of 1,5-2 seconds. First, as soon as he managed to nail a nair on him on the middle of FoD, he shined, jc that to wavedash and jab (thunders combo), reseting the Falco to do a wakeup and nulling the possibilities of any counterattack, then as soon as it was possible to hit Falco again, ftilted him off stage and shinespiked. There was nothing the Falco player could have done (take account his predictable and easily shinespiked recovery too, firebird wouldn't have made any difference and he needed to jump to possibly reach the ledge with phantasm), not like you could avoid Fox's nair forever on such a small stage or something, especially from someone with same amount of skill and better tech skill, plus faster character. :/ The combo was so fast I can barely remember what the Fox did to push the falco off stage, but my best guess is ftilt. And the Falco player is at the same level, the Fox player is just too technically crazy for his own good.

What I meant was listing it as an advantage made it seem like it is very consistent and happens so commonly that it isn't funny. Your instance the falco still died at 40/50%, my point being that he died 50% higher than 0%. In addition it was one kill of the entire match. Just out of curiosity how sure are you the falco couldn't have avoided it? Here is what he could have done:

1. tech the shine
2. crouch cancel the shine
3. crouch cancel the f-tilt (at that percent crouch cancelling the f-tilt would have kept him from getting knockedback, I believe)
4. phantasm was the safest recovery he could have made if he had time to.
5. the fox player got him with the shine mainly because he was in the precise area the fox player wanted him to be, so he could have di back from the f-tilt.

^^^ yah I understand that not everyone is perfect, but if the guy was really expecting the shine he would have done something and if he is one of the best falcos that would make him a pro so he knows of the uses of di. You are right he couldn't have avoided it, then again how could you avoid something you don't expect? Let me remind you this is one instance, in one battle, in one matchup of every matchup that involves a fox.

Hold on a minute. Did someone just suggest that the Shine is overrated? Was I reading that wrong? There is no possible way you can tell me that shinespiking isn't an advantage, and that shine combos are limited to a few characters. Sure you can't "infinite" shine combo certain characters, if thats what you mean, but it is still INCREDIBLY useful. And what's that about shinespiking being too rare an occurence to be helpful? I mean just because you don't get every kill from it, doesn't make it worthless. It is very very useful, and that whole thing about good players not being off the stage, well that's more your fault than theirs. It's up to you too get them off the stage, you can't blame the Shine for not being able to spike when it's really your fault for not getting them set up.

You're getting it all wrong shinespiking is advantage the fact that he said it can lead to 0% kills is what I was arguing. It can but it almost never will, because any good player would know of fox's shinespiking capabilities. Shine combos work really well on a few characters, they can work on more characters like marth and samus, doc and mario, but they can escape them if you don't do the wavedash perfectly and then dash a little and they can di out of them as well. And yes I know that it is very useful, but that reason being because fox wouldn't have any other comboing ability. Incredible just makes it sound like it is more amazing than doing a fair combo to a charged up neutral b with marth, which it isn't or fair someone off stage than spike them. And even things like ICs CT combos or falco's pillar combos. I'm not saying these combos are far better than shine combos, but shine combos are definitely not better, but I'd say about even with any good characters combos.

Man you're taking the shinespiking thing the wrong way, it is very useful, I just didn't think it was rightfully put as an advantage for fox that it can lead to 0% kills because 0% kills are more of a potential than an advantage. An advantage is something given that the character has, such as the shine itself, or the fact that he is fast, not that he can shinespike at 0% (because that just makes it sound like it is common to do so) or say that he can edgehog to bair.

About the players being off the stage you're right you are responsible for doing so, but a good player won't be off the stage unless you put them there yourself and you can't put them there unless they are at a high enough percentage to be off the stage or you shine them when they are by the edge, which they shouldn't be by the edge if you are fox, which is what a good player wouldn't do. 0% kos will occur when the other player makes a mistake like jumps off using an aerial, which it isn't that hard to avoid making that mistake.

 

[NJzFinest]

There is a ton of people who would disagree with the statement that fox vs. sheik is even.

Those people suck. Only have experienced players told me that it's an even matchup.

2. He has good comboability but seriously calling it incredible is way too exaggerated.
....
6. This is to anything said about the shine. Ganon, Peach, Link, CF, DK are the only waveshinable characters/ characters that can be comboed well with the shine. Shinespiking 0% kills is a potential not an advantage. Yah you can 0% shinespike a ******* congrats, its avoidable regardless and usually always happens at high percents. This is because that is the only time a GOOD player will be off the stage.
....
10. neutral air? Abusable and cheap. Sure have your opinion, the best part was you refered to M2K. In this very thread M2K was the one saying fox isn't that great. One of his specific reasons was range. nair is outranged by a bunch of other longer ranged moves.

2. It is incredible...compare it to the 26 other characters in the game. Only Falco, Sheik, and Marth come close.
6. Why is it that when people think shine, they only think of shine combos? Shine is used to control spacing, combo, edge guard, avoid shield grabbing, etc. It can be used very effectively on any given character.
10. How many characters can outspace it effectively? How many players know how to play against effectively? With that one technique.... didn't Mew2king **** numerous players?

Things you said I want to point out:

Fox has his hard matchups and there is a lot of them and I want that to be known.

A lot of hard matchups you say...? Hmmm

There is a lot of characters that he can go even with so why can't those characters take them out.

There's a lot of characters that Falco go even with?....Hmm

Guys....Fox and Falco suck