Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Mazdamaxsti]

You say that as I Pink Fresh is a bad player

He's not bad but I wouldnt really call him good either. You aren't really notable if you aren't high on the MD/VA PR for the simple fact that MD/VA isn't a stacked region. Even the top player (Boss) is barely even a notable luigi player.

 

[Zionaze]

Kirby like falco suffers from.
"Has the tools to do everything. But everyone can do it better so :^) syndrome."

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I want to share my thoughts on the matter.

I am actually fully content with the spot Kirby has: around the best of his current tier. (though I wouldn't mind seeing him in the bottom of Tier 4). I actually think that by design, Kirby has the tools to deal with pretty much any character. He has good tilts and aerials for combos, small frame which makes him tougher to hit, a great crouch to bypass projectiles from a lot of characters, kill throws, a combo throw, an Up B that creates a transcendant blade and projectile which can beat out appraoches and approach in turn, and an Inhale can put foes in a bad position or take their power which in some cases can completely change a matchup. On paper, Kirby would be able to handle the great majority, if not the entire cast.

It's just that right now, a lot of his tools just haven't been implemented well. His tilts and aerials would be great for combos and approach, but for some reason he has slower aerials than a lot characters of similar class. I mean for some bizarre reason, his N-Air comes out frame freaking 10. Same for his Up Air and F-Air. Compare this to other similar combo characters like Mario, Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu, or Meta Knight who have aerials that are often done in half the frames or less. Notably mention goes to his D-Air which possibly his best move yet has 18 frames of startup. Considering how slow Kirby is in general mobility, it's strange why this move has so much startup, especially compared to Fox's D-Air. His only fast aerial is B-Air. His unusually slow aerials make it tough for him to keep. This makes hit harder for him to challenge foes in the air or make his strings last than it should be. I also feel that Kirby's Smashes are too slow as well. By themselves it may not seem slow, but consider Kirby's range and speed and you find that getting them to hit is a lot harder than it should be. The frame 14 Up Smash is especially notably as it's pretty much slower than almost every other Up Smash of its type, so slow that Kirby can't even drop shield and hit his opponent with it quickly enough if they hit his shield from above. You are also correct in that his Up Throw is a just too weak. Kirby can't setup a kill off his grabs so he needs a reliable kill throw but his Up Throw is very underpowered, not killing Mario until about 190% bar DI. (Which is funny though because it's still in Top 20 of strongest Up Throws). Considering its animation, it's rather abusrd that characters like R.O.B and Marth have stronger Up Throws.

I personally think that the biggest issue with Kirby's whole neutral though is Final Cutter. I am surprised by how many overlook what a crucial move this could be. I think if Final Cutter had the startup of Upper Cutter and way less endlag with the range it had from Brawl, it would single handledly make Kirby's neutral solid. Think of all the uses he'd get out of it. The blade would allow him to beat out disjoints and breakable projectiles from a safe distance, even beating things like Yoshi eggs. It'd give him a nice landing option and a combo breaker. It'd become a powerful anti air that would make his matchups against many characters like Peach and Ness improve greatly, and it'd give him a form of approach and zoning. But sadly, the move has massive startup and endlag and got its range neutered. This is the attack I'd love to see fixed most as it would single handedly make so many his harder matchups even or tip in his favor completely.

As for the bit on those top and high tiers, I am reminded of a post Emblem Lord made a while back in regards to how the characters that should beat Ryu handily falter due to being underpowered. I think that by innate design, Kirby beats all those characters. But his tools are too underpowered at the moment for him to properly push those advantages. While I have my own opinions on the matchups individually, I due agree that Kirby isn't QUITE at anti-meta level yet. Getting there but not quite.

Having said all this though, I think Kirby arguably has the most potential of all the characters in his tier and below. Right now I personally feel he's about 31-37. Nice but lacking. But with the correct buffs to his frame data, Final Cutter, and throws, I could easily seem becoming a solid high tier. Thus while I personally have to agree that I don't think Kirby's quite ready to jump to tier 4, he certainly deserves to stay in his current spot as I personally that compared to a lot of the characters around him, if his design was implemented as well as it could reasonably be, he'd have the best time handling the overall cast.

This is very well written, and I understand your point clearly, but the only thing I really disagree with is Final Cutter being somewhat useful. It's easily punishable by perfect shield, but it is a good mixup for an opponent who doesn't shield often and is too aggro. Apart from that, I see where you're coming from and I agree for the most part.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Because some of us think some of the characters don't deserve to go one tier up. Most of people who are counter voting Doc and Kirby have made their statements why they don't deserve to be so high. The problem is that people who vote these characters up are mainly main biased, or people who vote 'cause they saw a character doing well in 1 big tournament.

Also to have good combo game you need to have a reliable way to start the combos which for example Kirby lacks. So overall he has on ok. Or to have a good off-stage game you must be able to do something effectively off-stage (gimp, edgeguard or kill) and get back on stage with ease (good example of characters with good off-stage game are Mii Swordfighter and Pit(s)).

In a perfect world tier list would be based on theory that is backed up with results and not the other way round.

THANK YOU. I really didn't know how to say it better. Maybe because my main language isn't English, but I tottaly thought that.

You love a character, OK, but be realistic man. My second main is Robin, but I think he's OK where he is, because I see his potential (with all the knowledge I have of the game and the character) and his MU's, data frame, realistic battle situations and qualities the character has, but other one can do it better!

Just... don't be *W H A T E V E R* B O Y Z, pls. Think for a moment.

 

[TimG57867]

This is very well written, and I understand your point clearly, but the only thing I really disagree with is Final Cutter being somewhat useful. It's easily punishable by perfect shield, but it is a good mixup for an opponent who doesn't shield often and is too aggro. Apart from that, I see where you're coming from and I agree for the most part.

I personally think that describes its current state. Like almost any move, even if it got buffed, you would probably get punished eventually if you overused it. But if it started at Frame 3 and had maybe half its current endlag or lesswith Brawl range its utility would skyrocket. You'd actually be able to catch an opponent in the air above you before they could air dodge, you'd be able to punish off a spot dodge, and you'd actually be able to force shields from a safe distance. I mean just imagine being able to stop Sonic from spindashing all day, or outranging Luigi's fireballs, or having a way to bypass Ness's stupid good aerials, or being able to catch backward rolls from Link, or a way to send Rosalina's Luma away with one shot. With intelligent use it'd be a god send!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He's not bad but I wouldnt really call him good either. You aren't really notable if you aren't high on the MD/VA PR for the simple fact that MD/VA isn't a stacked region. Even the top player (Boss) is barely even a notable luigi player.

Atleast Pink Fresh got close enough to beating Fatality. I'm still impressed by the fact that he got to use his Pit against both Fatality and Angel Cortez. Now that he has a copy of the game, maybe he'll become good enough to be a threat against someone like Nairo(the lesser known guys are always the most dangerous since you'll never know how they play).

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Atleast Pink Fresh got close enough to beating Fatality. I'm still impressed by the fact that he got to use his Pit against both Fatality and Angel Cortez. Now that he has a copy of the game, maybe he'll become good enough to be a threat against someone like Nairo(the lesser known guys are always the most dangerous since you'll never know how they play).

Maybe he will get good, but right now he isn't. Hopefully he does tho

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I vote Charizard up a tier, honestly; he's underrated and hasn't had too much exposure in tournaments outside of Bengal's glorious customs Zard. He has solid tools to deal with most of the cast, and the fact that he now has both a kill throw and a combo throw makes him a lot more versatile than he was before. He's one of the most solid heavies in the game; plus he has the best overall recovery of the heavyweight characters. He's definitely not nearly as bad as, say, Lucina and Marth.

I'm agreeing with the majority to drop Doc down a tier; he's not used too much and is overall less effective than Mario. His recovery is really pretty bad, too; all you need to do against a Doc recovery is hit him with a move that outprioritizes his recovery moves. Tornado doesn't help much. Plus his combo game is just not as lethal as Mario's, he doesn't have a reliable gimping option since he has the Tornado instead of Mario's F.L.U.D.D, and overall Doc is just slower, heavier, has a worse recovery, has fewer reliable combos and kill setups...he's inferior to Mario in pretty much every way. I think he's at best high 6th, but since 6th is locked, I can settle for him being the bottom of 5th.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Maybe he will get good, but right now he isn't. Hopefully he does tho

He's the most hyped VGBC player(to me atleast), so he'll get there

 

[aquaticpineapples]

5:

+
-

 

[phire_]

5:

+
-

 

[TMNTSSB4]

5:

+
-

Luigi isn't on the list

 

[Equin0x]

5:

+
-

The characters voted up or down need to be from the tier in question.

 

[aεrgiα]

ESAM didn't know the MU (considering Nairo landed d-throw f-air for kills it is pretty clear) and didn't play against Dr. Mario right.

yes indeed, so terrible of esam to get hit by a TRUE combo(yes u read that right dthrow fair is true on pika ~68-82%(think its 82) and nairo killed esam with it at 74% iirc so shame on esam indeed -_-

see this is the problem i see, so many people have extreemely strong opinions on something they havent even done their research on(doc has no throw combos, samus' hitboxes make her bad, mew2 has no combos etc) its alright to have an opinion but please inform yourself a bit, it hurts seeing all these misconceptions

as for the voting, my two votes;
+1 imo one of the most underrated chars in the game, hes really good 3rd strongest bthrow(sure, not the best grab) great zoning game, good speed, bombs and boomerang combo into aerials etc, i think hes really good...

+1 also imo quite underated, just bc hes light doesnt mean hes bad :/

order:



and one last thing about doc, the fact that "mario does everything he does but better" does not make him bad, thats like saying greninja is low tier bc sheik does everything he does but better(its an example, pls dont go telling me how its wrong bc "xyz" thats not my point)
sorry for the essay :/

 

[David Viran]

yes indeed, so terrible of esam to get hit by a TRUE combo(yes u read that right dthrow fair is true on pika ~68-82%(think its 82) and nairo killed esam with it at 74% iirc so shame on esam indeed -_-

There's so many more factors going into true combos than esam just being at 74%. Stuff like rage and staling. Also if those true combo percents were tested using the training combo counter than it's actually wrong because the combo counter fails to take into account that you can AD before any other option out of hitstun when you get to higher percents.

 

[Apeirohaon]

+
+

also I think this rule:

Characters that finish a round with + or - 10 votes will move 2 spaces.

is kind of a bad idea. I don't know if this has happened or not but it seems like it would create a system where a bunch of people want a char to move up, so they rise up 2 tiers, but nobody actually wanted that, and so they vote the char down again, and they end up in their original spot. then people want them to go up again and the cycle repeats

 

[Equin0x]

There's so many more factors going into true combos than esam just being at 74%. Stuff like rage and staling. Also if those true combo percents were tested using the training combo counter than it's actually wrong because the combo counter fails to take into account that you can AD before any other option out of hitstun when you get to higher percents.

I don't use Doc competitively but I do know that Dthrow Fair is indeed a true thing on some of the lightest characters in the game, including Fox. It's not crazy to think it works on Pikachu as well, since they are the same weight.

 

[Nessimator]

There's so many more factors going into true combos than esam just being at 74%. Stuff like rage and staling. Also if those true combo percents were tested using the training combo counter than it's actually wrong because the combo counter fails to take into account that you can AD before any other option out of hitstun when you get to higher percents.

define "AD"

 

[Apeirohaon]

define "AD"

air dodge

 

[David Viran]

I don't use Doc competitively but I do know that Dthrow Fair is indeed a true thing on some of the lightest characters in the game, including Fox. It's not crazy to think it works on Pikachu as well, since they are the same weight.

Never denied that it was a true combo just that there are a lot of factors in a real match when it comes to true combo percents. Fox is the fastest faller in the game while pika is not even really a fast faller. Fox also might have higher gravity but don't quote me on that. Light fast fallers are notorious for being susceptible to combos.

Nessimator AD = Air Dodge

 

[DarkK]

I don't use Doc competitively but I do know that Dthrow Fair is indeed a true thing on some of the lightest characters in the game, including Fox. It's not crazy to think it works on Pikachu as well, since they are the same weight.

It doesn't work necessarily on lightest characters, as it does not work on Puff. However it works on plenty of characters:


It cannot be air dodged, but the Doc player has to perform a rising fair (start the animation as he's jumping) for it to be a true combo and it only works at certain percents, depending on the character it varies. However some of this percents are either high enough to kill from the ledge or enough to kill from the center of the stage.

In case you haven't seen, Nairo isn't the only one who pulled off the combo. 2ManyCooks did it as well
2ManyCooks vs Exodia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86oO1RQNSYA&feature=youtu.be

at 2:10, 2MC pulls it off and sets the match in his favor 2 stocks to 1. I'm not quite sure if the distance Exodia went was because of DI or because it sends that far away, I'd have to check on that.

 

[aεrgiα]

There's so many more factors going into true combos than esam just being at 74%. Stuff like rage and staling. Also if those true combo percents were tested using the training combo counter than it's actually wrong because the combo counter fails to take into account that you can AD before any other option out of hitstun when you get to higher percents.

yes i know rage is a factor, but i believe nairo was not at a % where rage would have mattered enough to make it not true at that %, u cant air dodge the combo and docs fair isnt an option thats used that often so staling shouldnt be an issue either(nairo didnt use fair outside of dthrow fair i believe, but id have to watch the games again to be sure). but either way, i think its not exactly fair to say that getting hit by the combo at these % shows esam didnt know the mu, i mean sure he didnt play the mu perfectly(and im not disagreeing with mazdamaxstis post entirely), but then looking at how nairo played, i wouldnt say he played the mu ideally either( a doc main please correct me if im wrong on this, id love to know).

 

[Cyclone_]

5.
+1 - So many setups she just can't be below the people in this tier
-1 - Not our boy

 

[ShadowGuy1]

5.
+1 - So many setups she just can't be below the people in this tier
-1 - Not our boy

Morton was never our boy tho...

 

[Metalex]

+1 Toonlink
-1 Dr. Mario

 

[XenoBlur]

+1
+1

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Morton was never our boy tho...

He could'be been

 

[Xandercosm]

He could'be been

Lol, why did that guy even put Morton?

By the way, can someone give me a link to that video of Nairo playing as Doc?

 

[David Viran]

Lol, why did that guy even put Morton?

By the way, can someone give me a link to that video of Nairo playing as Doc?

I don't think anybody recorded most of the matches at mlg.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Lol, why did that guy even put Morton?

By the way, can someone give me a link to that video of Nairo playing as Doc?

Maybe they main the Morton alt

 

[Cyclone_]

Morton was never our boy tho...

OOOOOOOOPS hit the wrong one lol.

 

[Cyclone_]

Maybe they main the Morton alt

Don't make me throw up, (Main Marth and Zss all day)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Don't make me throw up, (Main Marth and Zss all day)

Roy is better anyways

 

[Deleted member]

Roy is better anyways

Not this again...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Not this again...

Just opinions, and I don't think it's been tales about seriously, maybe comically

 

[Equin0x]

Browny when's the next round? I'm sick of all of this Marth, Doc, etc discussion.

 

[Browny]

I update in the night, so I'll do it tonight then (like, 10 or so hours from now).

 

[DarkK]

Not this again...

But it's true, m8!

>

 

[Routa]

But it's true, m8!

>

*cough* >> *cough*

 

[Bowserboy3]

*cough* >> *cough*

+ 4lyfe