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Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

MarioMeteor

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I can get down with all these Doc up votes.
I love it how people are predicting this shield change will have a huge impact in game, where in reality it will be a minor change for certain characters. Loving the hyperbole.
It's right down the middle. Some characters are barely affected by it, some benefit greatly from it, i.e. Jigglypuff, and some are hurt by it. Although I do agree that some people are making mountains out of molehills. Poor Roy will never find a definite spot.
 
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Dcas

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I can get down with all these Doc up votes.

It's right down the middle. Some characters are barely affected by it, some benefit greatly from it, i.e. Jigglypuff, and some are hurt by it. Although I do agree that some people are making mountains out of molehills. Poor Roy will never find a definite spot.
Yeah, i mean i dont mind speculating about this kind of stuff but i think its healthy for the community to keep things realistic and proved with facts instead of going nuts about every single little thing. On the long run it will only improve the legitimacy of the statements within the forums :).
 

Pegasus Knight

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:4robinf: +1
:4palutena: +1
:4miisword: +1

Reasoning:

Robin: Recent buffs have made her able to hold her own against most of the cast. She clearly struggles against the top tiers, but I would certainly consider her equal to Ike, WFT, and the like. She has kill setups. They're not guaranteed like they are on the top characters, but they're LIKELY to work and this goes a long way.

Palutena: Is not as bad as you think. Her projectile and reflector are decent, her aerials are (aside from d-air) all very good, her dash attack and excellent grab also put in a lot of work. She's being underrated by being placed in Tier 6.

Swordfighter: Also not as bad as you think, due to recent buffs. His aerials are all good, and most of his specials range anywhere from decent to good.
 

Bowserboy3

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Here we go again, Marth and Roy having drastic changes each time this list is updated because nobody looks what others have posted... Are these ever going to find a concrete spot that is fair to both of them?

VOTES:

:4marth:+1 - I think we have all come past the point of "Marth is trash in this game" that everybody had during the first 6 months of this games lifespan (I'll be honest, I had this opinion too), but is now a very capable character thanks to updates. Could still do with a few slight changes to make him great, but is a usable, solid, good character, and thus, deserves Tier 4 IMO. I will mention Roy, as I do think that Marth and Roy deserve similar spots on the list, but I am not going to down vote Roy. Best to focus on one character rather than both or the voting becomes too drastic (evident).

:4samus:+1 - Here we go again, haha! If you have seen my votes from before, you know my opinions on Samus; defenitly not bottom tier, though not making her out to be fantastic. At this point, I think tier 5 deserves to be her home (as I have said before, she beats all the chracacters above her in this current tier 6, and certainly beats Dedede in tier 5, who IMO should certainly be down in tier 6, but hey ho. I think it's fair to say Samus is tier 5. If they actually fix a few of her moveset errors, making her moveset complete, I could see her in tier 4, but not yet. Tier 5 is fair for her.

:rosalina:+1 - This is an edit. I originally had a +1 Lucina here, but after seeing many others up vote her for basically all the same reasons as me, I decided to use this vote for Rosalina. Definitely in the top 4, though probably the worst of them IMO.


EXTRA OPINIONS

:4lucina:- (as mentioned above, I did initially have her as my thrid +1 vote. My opinion still stands, just not voting her up as many others have done so already and I don't want to see her moving too high up) - I think Lucina deserves to be closer to Marth. As stated above, you know my opinions on Marth, and I think what I said also applies to Lucina. Though Marth has more kill, gimp and mix up potential thanks to his tipper and sourspots, Lucina still has Marth's solid moveset, and thus, deserves to be closer to him. Also, thanks to patch 1.1.1, her moves can now be safer on shield when spaced properly.

:4rob: - I really fail to see how this character is lower than the likes of Roy and Peach. I consider this character part of a group of very high potential/secret high tier characters (if you are interested, they include :4pacman:, :4wario2:, :4pit:/:4darkpit: and :4greninja:). Pac Man and Wario are already in about the right spot IMO, and though I think all these deserve to be together, R.O.B. is crying out more than Pit(s) and Greninja.

:4tlink: - Another character I think has hidden potential (though not quite making the cut of the group mentioned above). I think he should be a bit higher.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Also nice to see :4marth:and :4feroy: in their proper places now.

It seems people finally realized that this is the tier list for Smash 4 and not Melee.
I have always said Roy is better than Marth in Smash 4. However, my opinion is that they are in the same tier, tier 4. But hey, that's just my opinion.
 

Bowserboy3

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WHY DO PEOPLE UPVOTE SAMUS, SHE IS LIKE ONE OF THE WORST CHARCTERS(I dont know if she got any buffs, so I apoligize about that.
Do you even play as Samus? If you played her, you'd realise that she isn't the worst character in the game. Sure, she isn't fantastic, but simply saying she is the worst character in the game is VERY naive. Samus has strong finishers, useful projectiles (admittedly, could be better, but are better than niche projectiles like Autoreticle and Din's Fire for example), and actually what people seem to never remember is that Samus has a combo game. Down Throw into Up Air, Up Air, Screw is an easy 40% right there. Dash Attack also launches at a combo angle, and Up Tilt also allows for combos if the opponent doesn't tech. She survives way longer than she should; multiple recovery options, including an Up B, Bombs to slow fall speed and increase sideways movement, and a Zair. By no means a fantastic character, but give her a chance.
 

Bowserboy3

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First, she wasn't one of the worst characters before the patch. Low tier, not bottom. Second, she did get buffed, and they weren't minor. The shield stun changes give us a way stronger neutral, nair is usable and sets up tech chases, fair had six (SIX) landing lag frames removed for when it isn't properly canceled, and some damage buffs that help our bnb combo damage outputs. All pretty big changes. Not everything we wanted, but not shabby at all. I honestly don't think people can use this character for a week and think she is one of the worst. I really believe that. When I went through a phase of using DHD for a while, the opposite happened. My opinion went down the drain. Samus has messed up hit boxes, that alone does not make her bad. The only major issue she has is trouble landing. That is why she is considered low tier, not any of the other reasons people come up with.
Oh it's a joy to see somebody with near enough the same opinions on Samus as me. If people actually gave her a chance instead of giving her the stereotypes of FG Roll Charge Shot Spam, or moaning that her jab doesn't link, they'd realise that she is a capable character. You sir, are a saint.
 

Basty

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+1 :4robinf: Huge potential, players are starting to show what he can do

+1:4gaw: A lot of players using him (Regi,Songun,GimR etc)

-1:4luigi: Not good anymore
 

MarioMeteor

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Yeah, i mean i dont mind speculating about this kind of stuff but i think its healthy for the community to keep things realistic and proved with facts instead of going nuts about every single little thing. On the long run it will only improve the legitimacy of the statements within the forums :).
You do realize what community we're talking about, right?
 

Routa

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Do you even play Samus? Sure, she isn't fantastic, but simply saying she is the worst character in the game is VERY naive. Samus has a lot going for her. Give her a chance.
May I ask who do you think is the worst character in game? Samus has okish moves that don't flow together well. Same goes with Zelda.

The question is... what she has going for herself? Is she good at recovering? Okish, but when it comes to landing... Well she cannot land safely. Getting thous % rise? Well she is ok in that. Approaching? Hehehee... Hee... Killing? Yeah... No. Ofc she has her Charge Shot, but it isn't that reliable.

Sorry for my arrogance, but I simply cannot see her above bottom 5. If she isn't THE WORST, then she is 2nd worst character atm. Results eh? She is mostly carried by good players and most of the people lack MU knowledge when it comes to fighting Samus.
 

Vyrnx

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May I ask who do you think is the worst character in game? Samus has okish moves that don't flow together well. Same goes with Zelda.

The question is... what she has going for herself? Is she good at recovering? Okish, but when it comes to landing... Well she cannot land safely. Getting thous % rise? Well she is ok in that. Approaching? Hehehee... Hee... Killing? Yeah... No. Ofc she has her Charge Shot, but it isn't that reliable.

Sorry for my arrogance, but I simply cannot see her above bottom 5. If she isn't THE WORST, then she is 2nd worst character atm. Results eh? She is mostly carried by good players and most of the people lack MU knowledge when it comes to fighting Samus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pauGLVAKg
This is what Samus has going for her. The farther you watch the better the combos, and actually the better combos are the ones Samus mains use more frequently as our bnbs.

If you think these are hard to use, they are not. I haven't missed one in months. If you think they are hard to start, they aren't. Dash attack, down throw, utilt, dair, Samus was designed to be the heavyweight combo character. She is a mid ranger, NOT a long range projectile user.

Of all of the problems Samus has, killing is not one of them, but I don't blame outsiders for not knowing this. CS is in fact very reliable because it's the best tech chase in the game, the perfect speed to cover almost every get up option. This alone is enough to totally negate that argument, but there's also the fact that many of Samus's moves are designed to set up tech chases with CS--ftilt, nair, zair (this one in particular is so easy), jab 1, etc.

Fsmash has good range and is tied for fastest fsmash in the game. It kills really early, and no, it is not broken to the point where it is unusable. It isn't even that hard to hit with. Usmash is an anti air move (quit using it on grounded opponents) that kills at 100-110%. Up-b OOS or uair-->up-b kills at 150 from the ground, or much lower from platforms.

Samus is a good edge guarder, and her recovery isn't "okish", it literally has no issues whatsoever. Nair kills super early off stage and is no longer hard to hit with, dair reads air dodges, fair can drag, utilt at the ledge has a nice knock back angle, ledge trump--> CS is a guaranteed KO at mid percents, though ledge trump-->bair works as well. Bair stage spikes recoveries like Villager, Mega Man, Greninja, and many others.

Samus also has some really polarized MUs... DK and Peach, high tiers, get shut down by zair primarily, but also CS, missiles, bombs, edge guarding (in DK's case). Samus beats two top tiers, Ness and Luigi. And I mean Samus actually beats them. For Luigi the reason is as simple as CS, for Ness there are many reasons but this post is already getting lengthy.

When compared to other characters in contention for worst in the game, Samus doesn't actually make a strong case at all for being the worst. Weird hitboxes alone are not enough. Not even a bad grab is enough.

And tbh I don't think you know anything about Samus, sorry, but that's the way your post came off. Her moves don't flow? Please stop making posts about Samus until you have actually used her ever please.
 
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Bowserboy3

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May I ask who do you think is the worst character in game? Samus has okish moves that don't flow together well. Same goes with Zelda.

The question is... what she has going for herself? Is she good at recovering? Okish, but when it comes to landing... Well she cannot land safely. Getting thous % rise? Well she is ok in that. Approaching? Hehehee... Hee... Killing? Yeah... No. Ofc she has her Charge Shot, but it isn't that reliable.

Sorry for my arrogance, but I simply cannot see her above bottom 5. If she isn't THE WORST, then she is 2nd worst character atm. Results eh? She is mostly carried by good players and most of the people lack MU knowledge when it comes to fighting Samus.
Who is the worst character in the game according to me, hmm... That's a tough decision for me. See I can play nearly all the characters in the game decently well, save about 5, so I know standard combos and options for nearly every character. If I had to choose one, I probably couldn't, but I would say the bottom 5 would be Gunner, Sword, Palutena, Zelda and Jiggs, with Ganon and Dedede close by (no specific order, Mii's assumed 1111 medium).

And no, you're not being arrogant, that's fine. I intend to just enlighten you on what Samus can do.

Ok, recovering. Remember recovery isn't just about distance you get with your Up B for example (i'm not implying you meant this, just making myself clear). Samus has multiple options for recovery. Recovery Options > Recovery Distance is usually the case. Bombs to stall fall speed and increase vertical distance slightly (as bomb jumps aren't nearly as useful as before, I find it better to use bombs to help give you a slight boost sideways), a Zair, and an Up B with a hitbox. Tie this in with a great weight, and good aerial mobility and Samus survives longer than most characters.

Landing you are correct with, Samus has a slight issue with this. However, people don't use bombs enough when coming down, and its also just as safe to go for the ledge, which you can grab safely with Zair. Getting off the ledge isn't as bad for Samus compared to most characters. Fair is good, Zair is great, and if you have a Charge Shot, this is great too, and the new shield mechanics only make this option safer than before.

Approaching. Zair. Enough said. Zair is a great option for both approaching and retreating. Literally no landing lag from it makes it relatively safe too. Dash Attack is also decent, as it can cross up shields too. But to be honest, Samus doesn't need to approach. I find Samus much more threatening when you force the opponent to approach, through clever use of Zair and missiles.

As regards to killing, Samus has plenty of killing options. I'll say that you have to be good at using/landing them, but she certainly isn't short of killing moves like in Brawl. Charge Shot, as you mentioned, kills. Not overusing it is key (as with any character really). Fsmash sweetspot kills early, and the sourspot still kills at reasonable percents. Up Smash is powerful and links better than it's ever done before, especially thanks to patches. Bair is also really powerful. The sweetspot is rather big, has good range, and is also relatively safe on shield if it is SHFF, even more so thanks to the shield changes. Samus also has a great Dair, which is very easy to land. It's powerful, and is good off stage. Nair is also good off stage, as it can now kill, and thanks to 1.1.1, is easier to land. And Samus also has a powerful ledge trump game. Reverse Charge Shot and Bair are powerful, and you can even hang from the edge with Zair to trump the opponent (not always the best idea, but its an option, an option not every character has).

People also forget that Samus actually has usable combos. Dash Attach launches at a combo friendly angle. Dthrow works. Uair can string into itself and then a Screw, or you can go Uair into 2 Bairs at low percent. Utilt also works at lower percents if the opponent doesn't tech.

I want to move on to matchups as I finish, as Samus certainly beats most of the characters around her at the bottom. Ganon and Dedede for example. In general, Samus has a better matchup spread than most characters at the bottom, being able to compete with lots of higher up characters like DK, Bowser, and even high tiers like Falcon and Luigi, who the latter is considered to have a disadvantageous matchup to Samus. No other low tier has this distinction.

Samus has a few hitbox and moveset problems, and its due to this that people who know nothing about her just label her as the worst character in the game. I usually get "jab doesn't link, it sucks". Well why use Jab when you can use Dtilt, which is much safer? Samus has plenty of kill options this time, so people saying that she has no killing options are very naive.

I don't want to come across as saying Samus is a fantastic character, no. She still has a few things that could be tuned up, but what she has currently works, and is certainly not at the bottom of the tier list. All this is just one way to play Samus. A lot of her moves can set up tech chases. If you have miss a tech against a Samus with a Charge Shot, you may be on the receiving end of one.
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Who is the worst character in the game according to me, hmm... That's a tough decision for me. See I can play nearly all the characters in the game decently well, save about 5, so I know standard combos and options for nearly every character. If I had to choose one, I probably couldn't, but I would say the bottom 5 would be Gunner, Sword, Palutena, Zelda and Jiggs, with Ganon and Dedede close by (no specific order, Mii's assumed 1111 medium).

And no, you're not being arrogant, that's fine. I intend to just enlighten you on what Samus can do.

Ok, recovering. Remember recovery isn't just about distance you get with your Up B for example (i'm not implying you meant this, just making myself clear). Samus has multiple options for recovery. Recovery Options > Recovery Distance is usually the case. Bombs to stall fall speed and increase vertical distance slightly (as bomb jumps aren't nearly as useful as before, I find it better to use bombs to help give you a slight boost sideways), a Zair, and an Up B with a hitbox. Tie this in with a great weight, and good aerial mobility and Samus survives longer than most characters.

Landing you are correct with, Samus has a slight issue with this. However, people don't use bombs enough when coming down, and its also just as safe to go for the ledge, which you can grab safely with Zair. Getting off the ledge isn't as bad for Samus compared to most characters. Fair is good, Zair is great, and if you have a Charge Shot, this is great too, and the new shield mechanics only make this option safer than before.

Approaching. Zair. Enough said. Zair is a great option for both approaching and retreating. Literally no landing lag from it makes it relatively safe too. Dash Attack is also decent, as it can cross up shields too. But to be honest, Samus doesn't need to approach. I find Samus much more threatening when you force the opponent to approach, through clever use of Zair and missiles.

As regards to killing, Samus has plenty of killing options. I'll say that you have to be good at using/landing them, but she certainly isn't short of killing moves like in Brawl. Charge Shot, as you mentioned, kills. Not overusing it is key (as with any character really). Fsmash sweetspot kills early, and the sourspot still kills at reasonable percents. Up Smash is powerful and links better than it's ever done before, especially thanks to patches. Bair is also really powerful. The sweetspot is rather big, has good range, and is also relatively safe on shield if it is SHFF, even more so thanks to the shield changes. Samus also has a great Dair, which is very easy to land. It's powerful, and is good off stage. Nair is also good off stage, as it can now kill, and thanks to 1.1.1, is easier to land. And Samus also has a powerful ledge trump game. Reverse Charge Shot and Bair are powerful, and you can even hang from the edge with Zair to trump the opponent (not always the best idea, but its an option, an option not every character has).

People also forget that Samus actually has usable combos. Dash Attach launches at a combo friendly angle. Dthrow works. Uair can string into itself and then a Screw, or you can go Uair into 2 Bairs at low percent. Utilt also works at lower percents if the opponent doesn't tech.

I want to move on to matchups as I finish, as Samus certainly beats most of the characters around her at the bottom. Ganon and Dedede for example. In general, Samus has a better matchup spread than most characters at the bottom, being able to compete with lots of higher up characters like DK, Bowser, and even high tiers like Falcon and Luigi, who the latter is considered to have a disadvantageous matchup to Samus. No other low tier has this distinction.

Samus has a few hitbox and moveset problems, and its due to this that people who know nothing about her just label her as the worst character in the game. I usually get "jab doesn't link, it sucks". Well why use Jab when you can use Dtilt, which is much safer? Samus has plenty of kill options this time, so people saying that she has no killing options are very naive.

I don't want to come across as saying Samus is a fantastic character, no. She still has a few things that could be tuned up, but what she has currently works, and is certainly not at the bottom of the tier list. All this is just one way to play Samus. A lot of her moves can set up tech chases. If you have miss a tech against a Samus with a Charge Shot, you may be on the receiving end of one.
You're overrating Samus a ton. She doesn't need some "tune-ups", she needs to be fixed to become a viable character.

Samus has reverse hurtboxes (hurtbox goes past hitbox) on a lot of her moves, her recovery is VERY linear and easy to edge-guard, her charge shot has low "priority" (idk what else to call it), she is a floaty mess who can still be combo'd, has no reliable combo breakers, and has no good landing options. Her combos are good, but combos don't make a character good. She can't play rush down well but her defensive game is just as bad.
 

Vyrnx

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You're overrating Samus a ton. She doesn't need some "tune-ups", she needs to be fixed to become a viable character.

Samus has reverse hurtboxes (hurtbox goes past hitbox) on a lot of her moves, her recovery is VERY linear and easy to edge-guard, her charge shot has low "priority" (idk what else to call it), she is a floaty mess who can still be combo'd, has no reliable combo breakers, and has no good landing options. Her combos are good, but combos don't make a character good. She can't play rush down well but her defensive game is just as bad.
Her recovery is pretty linear but not easy to edge guard. CS doesn't have low priority, it beats out the vast majority of projectiles which is why she wins vs characters like Luigi--he can't use his fireballs against her. It clanks with "items", like bombs, Pac fruits, pikmin, luma, gyro, PK Fire, mechakoopas, DHD stuff, and turnips. I think that's everything. Only a few MU where it matters, and against Link, ROB, Jr, Peach, and the PSIs it is easy to avoid. Also keep in mind CS is never used in the neutral ever, where this clanking is most prevalent.

The hurtboxes are actually a genuine issue. No, Samus isn't running around getting hit every time she uses an attack, but the fact that it happens 1/100 times is enough to be a problem. The hurtbox extension on fsmash in particular is criminal, I'm 90% sure the FIREBALL is a hurtbox.

For anyone who wants to understand Samus and hasn't seen this video, watch it:
upload_2015-10-5_12-30-11.jpeg

The nair issues were mostly fixed. Also 7:51 is important.

Samus has issues undoubtedly, but when people make posts that clearly show they have never ever selected Samus on the character selection screen and spread misconceptions, it's plain ridiculous. That's for the person above, not you mazdamaxsti.
 
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Bowserboy3

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You're overrating Samus a ton. She doesn't need some "tune-ups", she needs to be fixed to become a viable character.

Samus has reverse hurtboxes (hurtbox goes past hitbox) on a lot of her moves, her recovery is VERY linear and easy to edge-guard, her charge shot has low "priority" (idk what else to call it), she is a floaty mess who can still be combo'd, has no reliable combo breakers, and has no good landing options. Her combos are good, but combos don't make a character good. She can't play rush down well but her defensive game is just as bad.
Vyrnx Vyrnx said it all better than me, so I shall leave it there. I also want to point out what I said at the end of my post. I said myself that Samus isn't a fantastic character. She is still in the lower echelons of the list in reality, but is certainly not at the bottom. If people actually learned how to play her instead of just following the crowd they would realise that. It annoys me to no end how people just look at the negatives and assume no positives. I am not saying you are like this at all, but in general it just upsets me.
 

Wintermelon43

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-Jab, up smash, and forward air have trouble connecting, dash attack goes right through the opponent 90% of the time-

-Not low tier-
 

Vyrnx

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-Jab, up smash, and forward air have trouble connecting, dash attack goes right through the opponent 90% of the time-

-Not low tier-
Why is dash attack going through the opponent? I haven't whiffed one since I picked up the character last October and I'm not exaggerating at all. Why are you using jab? Usmash messes up 5% of the time now if you use it on an opponent in the air (it's purpose is anti air), and forward air literally doesn't have trouble connecting unless you jump past the opponent completely during the starting frames. You either made that up or don't know what you are talking about.

Please. I've made long posts with actual reasoning about a character I understand, and then you say "w, x, y, and z moves have problems" and they're not even problems for Samus mains.

Also please quote where someone said Samus was not low tier. She's low tier because she can't land.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Why is dash attack going through the opponent? I haven't whiffed one since I picked up the character last October and I'm not exaggerating at all. Why are you using jab? Usmash messes up 5% of the time now if you use it on an opponent in the air (it's purpose is anti air), and forward air literally doesn't have trouble connecting unless you jump past the opponent completely during the starting frames. You either made that up or don't know what you are talking about.

Please. I've made long posts with actual reasoning about a character I understand, and then you say "w, x, y, and z moves have problems" and they're not even problems for Samus mains.

Also please quote where someone said Samus was not low tier. She's low tier because she can't land.
:4samus:+1 - Here we go again, haha! If you have seen my votes from before, you know my opinions on Samus; defenitly not bottom tier, though not making her out to be fantastic. At this point, I think tier 5 deserves to be her home (as I have said before, she beats all the chracacters above her in this current tier 6, and certainly beats Dedede in tier 5, who IMO should certainly be down in tier 6, but hey ho. I think it's fair to say Samus is tier 5. If they actually fix a few of her moveset errors, making her moveset complete, I could see her in tier 4, but not yet. Tier 5 is fair for her.
Tier 5 is past low tier
 

Vyrnx

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Tier 5 is past low tier
Well that's true. We have too many tiers though...
But in the meantime please quit making posts about what you think of Samus until you are willing to list things that are actually relevant. Some people are doing this, almost everyone else is not.
 

Wintermelon43

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Well that's true. We have too many tiers though...
But in the meantime please quit making posts about what you think of Samus until you are willing to list things that are actually relevant. Some people are doing this, almost everyone else is not.

Well then, what she has:

Alright recovery

Good z-air

Up air can combo, followup into Screw attack, and is good.

Forward KOs fairly early, and it has no bad thing about it,

Charge Shot is pretty much good at everything but getting away from projectiles

Green missile is pretty good too

Advantage aganist Luigi

Terrible Disadvantages:

No jab

Forward air NEVER connects

Dash attack hits on only 1-2 frame(s)

Down Smash is crap

Neutral air was crap for sure, but I think it was buffed this patch iirc? If it wasn't, that sucks too

Pink missile.... well, let's just go with that it isn't in the game

Down special sucks too I believe



You make some good points though, I never knew Up Smash was for Anti-Air or that she has advantages aganist Ness, Peach, and Donkey Kong.
 

Routa

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As regards to killing, Samus has plenty of killing options. I'll say that you have to be good at using/landing them, but she certainly isn't short of killing moves like in Brawl. Charge Shot, as you mentioned, kills. Not overusing it is key (as with any character really). Fsmash sweetspot kills early, and the sourspot still kills at reasonable percents. Up Smash is powerful and links better than it's ever done before, especially thanks to patches. Bair is also really powerful. The sweetspot is rather big, has good range, and is also relatively safe on shield if it is SHFF, even more so thanks to the shield changes. Samus also has a great Dair, which is very easy to land. It's powerful, and is good off stage. Nair is also good off stage, as it can now kill, and thanks to 1.1.1, is easier to land. And Samus also has a powerful ledge trump game. Reverse Charge Shot and Bair are powerful, and you can even hang from the edge with Zair to trump the opponent (not always the best idea, but its an option, an option not every character has).
Yes she has a some good KO moves, but the question is... Are they reliable? For example I main Swordfighter that is known for having hard time killing people. Even tho he has great aerials which all are good at killing he/she/it still struggles at killing. Why? They are not reliable. Samus' most reliable and somewhat safe KO move might be her Charge Shot. Also when talking about viability of a character you have to compare him/her/it to rest of the cast.

lso forget that Samus actually has usable combos. Dash Attach launches at a combo friendly angle. Dthrow works. Uair can string into itself and then a Screw, or you can go Uair into 2 Bairs at low percent. Utilt also works at lower percents if the opponent doesn't tech.
Yes she has some combos, but so do most of the characters. The thing is that she hasn't anything speacial going on in the combo apartment unlike Mario (or Ike whose combos are relatively easy to get and the reward from them is huge).

As I said she really hasn't anything going for herself. I mean most of other bottom 10 characters have something going on for themselves. For example Mii Swordfighter has amazing edgeguarding game that is as good as (or better) many top/high tier characters. Also I want to note that she isn't Brawl Ganondorf or Melee Kirby bad, but when compared to rest of the cast. Well bottom tier just seems to be her place.

Edit: tbh I love how much Main bias there is in this thread. Mostly looking at Roy mains and Doc mains.
 
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Vyrnx

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Yes she has a some good KO moves, but the question is... Are they reliable? For example I main Swordfighter that is known for having hard time killing people. Even tho he has great aerials which all are good at killing he/she/it still struggles at killing. Why? They are not reliable. Samus' most reliable and somewhat safe KO move might be her Charge Shot. Also when talking about viability of a character you have to compare him/her/it to rest of the cast.



Yes she has some combos, but so do most of the characters. The thing is that she hasn't anything speacial going on in the combo apartment unlike Mario (or Ike whose combos are relatively easy to get and the reward from them is huge).

As I said she really hasn't anything going for herself. I mean most of other bottom 10 characters have something going on for themselves. For example Mii Swordfighter has amazing edgeguarding game that is as good as (or better) many top/high tier characters. Also I want to note that she isn't Brawl Ganondorf or Melee Kirby bad, but when compared to rest of the cast. Well bottom tier just seems to be her place.
Samus has the most damaging true combos in the game. She has a whole lot going on in that department. Her combos aren't like most characters, her combos are easy to start, easy to follow through with, and do 40-50 damage easily. 2-3 hit confirms into combos gets opponents at kill percents and allows Samus to charge CS or edge guard, which she's good at. Samus isn't amazing at killing, but tech chase CS is very reliable and definitely kills. We also won't ever have crazy things happen like our opponent getting to 200% and having to fish for kills. If for some reason Samus can't kill before 150-160, up-b OOS starts killing. But while her advantage state is nice, her disadvantage state is still awful. I need to stop making posts here though, Samus is low tier but not bottom tier.
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Yes she has a some good KO moves, but the question is... Are they reliable? For example I main Swordfighter that is known for having hard time killing people. Even tho he has great aerials which all are good at killing he/she/it still struggles at killing. Why? They are not reliable. Samus' most reliable and somewhat safe KO move might be her Charge Shot. Also when talking about viability of a character you have to compare him/her/it to rest of the cast.



Yes she has some combos, but so do most of the characters. The thing is that she hasn't anything speacial going on in the combo apartment unlike Mario (or Ike whose combos are relatively easy to get and the reward from them is huge).

As I said she really hasn't anything going for herself. I mean most of other bottom 10 characters have something going on for themselves. For example Mii Swordfighter has amazing edgeguarding game that is as good as (or better) many top/high tier characters. Also I want to note that she isn't Brawl Ganondorf or Melee Kirby bad, but when compared to rest of the cast. Well bottom tier just seems to be her place.

Edit: tbh I love how much Main bias there is in this thread. Mostly looking at Roy mains and Doc mains.
You're underestimating Samus' combos. She has 0-40%s on fastfallers, f-air and u-air string into eachother and up-b is a finisher. Also, she has good combo starters.
 

ShadowGuy1

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Do you even play as Samus? If you played her, you'd realise that she isn't the worst character in the game. Sure, she isn't fantastic, but simply saying she is the worst character in the game is VERY naive. Samus has strong finishers, useful projectiles (admittedly, could be better, but are better than niche projectiles like Autoreticle and Din's Fire for example), and actually what people seem to never remember is that Samus has a combo game. Down Throw into Up Air, Up Air, Screw is an easy 40% right there. Dash Attack also launches at a combo angle, and Up Tilt also allows for combos if the opponent doesn't tech. She survives way longer than she should; multiple recovery options, including an Up B, Bombs to slow fall speed and increase sideways movement, and a Zair. By no means a fantastic character, but give her a chance.
i said ONE of the worst. Now, I need to see more samus in action, and why cant pople have an opinion anymore rip



EDIT:Votes
I cant save Roy, hes dropping two tiers. We have the new Luigi, and its even worse because this is the last voting phase. Oh Lord Browny, atleast put him at the end of tier 4 , because tier 5 is not where he should go, as many people aggred form last voting phase.

+1 Megaman(bruh)
-1 Mii Brawler(uh, no customs, not that, i think tier 6 is better imo.
-1Marth(Just to dcounter the Marth Upvotes so hes not tier 1)

Also, if you could all be a dear, dont downvote Roy anymore pls. Jk do what you want.
 
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Vyrnx

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i said ONE of the worst. Now, I need to see more samus in action, and why cant pople have an opinion anymore rip
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_pKe9yALkI
KayJay from Austria
00:42 was a mis-input, should have been a SH FF B-Air (Short Hop into a fast falling back air). Would have broken the shield (Samus is good at breaking shields, gets it in tournaments pretty frequently actually. A shield break is a guaranteed kill per the dirty bomb combo.)

Johnny Westside vs a Meta Knight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqMyo9senA

KayJay vs a Robin, the meta is very outdated here--Samus players no longer use roll and use less missiles. I threw it in for people to see the combo at the beginning. It is inescapable.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJC82f-nyk

Depth from Florida--Mario is tied for being our worst MU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-8QCSa98H0

The Samus boards video thread is 21 pages long and has great content as well.
 
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ShadowGuy1

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_pKe9yALkI
KayJay from Austria
00:42 was a mis-input, should have been a SH FF B-Air (Short Hop into a fast falling back air). Would have broken the shield (Samus is good at breaking shields, gets it in tournaments pretty frequently actually. A shield break is a guaranteed kill per the dirty bomb combo.)

Johnny Westside vs a Meta Knight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqMyo9senA

KayJay vs a Robin, the meta is very outdated here--Samus players no longer use roll and use less missiles. I threw it in for people to see the combo at the beginning. It is inescapable.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJC82f-nyk

Depth from Florida--Mario is tied for being our worst MU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-8QCSa98H0
Ok, since I wanna see what everyone is talking about, I feel try to play and learn Samus and see it all for myself. I will get back to you when I figured it out

EDIT:Working on seeing the frame data and combos from trhows and in general
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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And, "why?", that's the question.
The shield nerf made his approach options better, and unlike many people falsely assume, he is not a "bad Mario clone". The only thing he clones about Mario is his frame data, which is good because that plus his power makes him great at killing. His combos and strings are good, and the pill really isn't bad. ("It bounces over opponents", why does that make people think it's 10x worse? :/)
 
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