Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Quickhero]

This makes me super sad duck hunt is one of my favorite stages. I really hope it can be salvaged.

Man...if custom moves are released maybe people will actually stand a chance against Rosalina in these kind of stages...but if nothing is figured out, just another reason why I wish Rosalina wasn't in this game. Or at least, not the way she is.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well sadly his recorder crashed when the video went to upload so we'll have to do this again. But to be honest from what I saw I would ban the stage unless after we rerecord someone can find a flaw in this strategy. The game wasn't even a fight, it was a few percent then a sad struggle where the tree was the only thing that mattered. And this wasn't just little mac, we had about 10 characters tried out, that's a HUGE amount of the cast possibly made unviable

 

[webbedspace]

I'm not too fussed about Duck Hunt's demise, as the stage structure itself isn't that remarkable - minus the tree and ducks, it's basically a walled FD with extended sides (the ceiling is the same height) and a tiny platform on the right that kinda-sorta helps high recoveries. The blacklisting of Kongo seems a much bigger tragedy, one that people should work harder to overturn, if possible.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure a character with projectiles, enough disjoint, or able to read and punish her attempt to disrupt approaches should be fine (and they are quite a lot).
Don't ban the stage just yet, that would only send it to oblivion and make people not even want to prove its competitive worth.

 

[19_]

Pretty sure a character with projectiles, enough disjoint, or able to read and punish her attempt to disrupt approaches should be fine (and they are quite a lot).
Don't ban the stage just yet, that would only send it to oblivion and make people not even want to prove its competitive worth.

Want to echo this right now because I hope we are just overreacting. I hope that @ LiteralGrill gets that footage sooner rather than later.

 

[Terotrous]

So we'll say that, then take out a few stages. Then when folks start to ask to ban those stages that seemed perfectly good those will eventually die too leaving us with NOTHING.

PS2 has never been "perfectly good". People have hated the Electric transformation since day 1.


Also, how is it that people have no issue with banning Wuhu Island for one of its stops, yet PS2 is immune, despite the fact that PS2's transformations are like 10 times more disruptive?

The reason why PM tournaments dropped PS1 is because A) PM has the problem of having too many legal stages, and B) PS2 is a thing.

Note that PM's PS2 is a vastly better stage that doesn't transform.

Also, Smash4 has even more legal stages than PM.

I know this is beating a dead horse, but here is my cut down and hopefully last 3DS stagelist :

Starter Stages :
- Final Destination and Omega stages
- Battlefield
- Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks :
- Prism Tower
- Arena Ferox
- Tomodachi Life
- Brinstar : This one barely made the list and could even be up to the TO whether it is banned. Yes it has been banned before, but in Melee it was always a good stage and in Brawl it was because of Meta Knight. Only bad thing IMO is that it can break apart. Lava is predictable and allows for unique gameplay.

Top 6 is obvious IMO and I've been using this for ages. IMO, Brinstar is still very suspect, there's just a lot of strange stuff involving those weird little balls where you can either get stuck on them or glitch through them or whatever.

I'm watching live gameplay right now that is being recorded and will be on youtube that should show that the tree on Duck Hunt is over-centralizing because all combat is based only on control of the tree. If a player gets the lead, it makes sense it seems to only camp the tree from what we are seeing. Rosalina is showing this off and it's shutting down a sizeable portion of the cast pretty hard. We probably wont have videos of every matchup, but when it's up I wanna show it here. This is showing me that the stage may really be an issue.

I'm not really shocked. I brought up the tree as a potential issue the first time we discussed the stage. It's not a huge loss IMO, as noted the stage is very similar to FD except for the tree.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't plan to ban it yet. If and when the videos are posted, I'm going to encourage everyone to try and work on it. If it really dose look to be too strong after, then we'll talk. I'm not all crazy ya know, I take evidence but I want it reviewed by everyone too.

SINCE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT POKEMON STADIUM​

Smash 4 Worldwide is running a poll about the stage for the tournament. It was the only stage not originally included in our poll that was questionable. Since it was by far more popular then Wuhu Island (which as of now probably isn't going to make it ) this is our attempt to see if it might be worthy.

I also have discussion opened up specifically for the stage on reddit as well. So go and discuss too. Let's figure out this stage.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

PS2 has never been "perfectly good". People have hated the Electric transformation since day 1.


Also, how is it that people have no issue with banning Wuhu Island for one of its stops, yet PS2 is immune, despite the fact that PS2's transformations are like 10 times more disruptive?

Personally I like the electric transformation. The conveyer belts and platform layout encourage aerial combat while not making aerial combat unwieldy like I admit the wind transformation does.

Also, people see the Wuhu glitch, plus issues with traveling stages in general form up to tag team Wuhu, and I wouldn't say the transformations are that disruptive, short of maybe the wind again.

Note that PM's PS2 is a vastly better stage that doesn't transform.

Also, Smash4 has even more legal stages than PM.

Yes, is a legality sense, PM's PS2 is far more legal and better than the one in Wii U. However, we're not arguing to make it a starter, just a counter pick. I personally hate the **** out of PM's PS2, as it took all the charm and coolness of one of the most unique stages in all of Smash, and replaced it with a flat+plat stage.

Having too many stages should never be a bad thing. I am constantly confused as to why people think having a small amount of stages is a good idea.

 

[Terotrous]

Personally I like the electric transformation. The conveyer belts and platform layout encourage aerial combat while not making aerial combat unwieldy like I admit the wind transformation does.

The problem with aerial combat is that at some point you have to land, then you get flung off the stage again by the stupid converyor belts.

Really what this transformation encourages is camping the middle area. If I can gain control of that spot there's no way I'm moving. I'm just going to throw eggs for 30 seconds and gain free damage.

Also, people see the Wuhu glitch, plus issues with traveling stages in general form up to tag team Wuhu, and I wouldn't say the transformations are that disruptive, short of maybe the wind again.

There's also complaints about pits and such, but I find all of these far less disruptive than any of PS2's transformations.

Yes, is a legality sense, PM's PS2 is far more legal and better than the one in Wii U. However, we're not arguing to make it a starter, just a counter pick. I personally hate the **** out of PM's PS2, as it took all the charm and coolness of one of the most unique stages in all of Smash, and replaced it with a flat+plat stage.

I don't find anything cool about stages that don't play well, personally. Maybe people look at 75m or Rumble Falls and think "what a cool looking stage" or something, but I just think "banned".

Having too many stages should never be a bad thing. I am constantly confused as to why people think having a small amount of stages is a good idea.

All other things being equal, more stages is better. However, given the choice between a moderately large list containing all good stages and a large list containing some bad stages, I'd take the former every time.


Bad stages only really become worth considering when the number of good stages is very small, IMO, like in the 3DS version. I can see why you'd contemplate Corneria or Brinstar there, though they're still likely not viable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The ignorance on PS2 is hurting me over the internet...

Why do people think different=bad?
It just takes a bit of knowledge and adaptation and voila, a fair stage.
Even if you don't really like a certain phase, 30 seconds isn't a whole lot to stall out

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So some things...

Tree camping just obviously doesn't work in most match-ups. It's basic positional theory for this game. Being above your opponent sucks. Most dairs are slow and have inferior hitboxes compared to most uairs (uair is an extremely good aerial on almost every character, and that's not a design coincidence). Landings can be trapped for forced hits. Being really high up puts you in prime position to be killed off the top very early. Hearing the suggestion that Rosalina is the one doing this especially cements for me that these players are probably not very strong players and that's the entire issue they'e having on the stage. Let's go over why Rosalina is one of the very worst characters in the game at camping the tree:

-Extremely low fall speed, easy to time/space your juggles versus her.
-Frame 18 dair is extremely slow, no special moves to alter her momentum or protect her in the air.
-Blocking attacks from below often results in Luma death, Luma generally horrible at hitting downward or following Rosalina in a fall.
-Rosalina's physics make her one of the least resistant characters in the game to vertical KOs, will die extremely early if hit with a strong uair or up special even compared to others.
-Up special has no hitboxes and extreme commitment, has no utility at all as a last ditch escape in a juggle situation.

Whereas her pros...

+Large double jump
+Big hitboxes on dair
+Airdodge animation makes her slightly harder than average to follow if she times evasion correctly.

Yeah, if Rosalina tries to camp the tree, just uair her a lot (or use vertical projectiles if you have them; she can Gravitational Pull them, but that commits her and gives you even more time to set up that uair). If she blocks, keep doing it until Luma is dead and you start shield stabbing her. The platforms are too small for her to roll to avoid anything. If she jumps off the tree, just follow up to keep her in a juggle trap. I don't even see why you'd pick Rosalina for this task when almost any other character could do it relatively better; if I wanted to tree camp, I'd pick G&W for sure, maybe Fox, definitely not Rosalina.

The only two characters who are particularly worried about tree camping are Little Mac and Ganondorf who cannot double jump up there. Little Mac is a character I am not convinced is viable in general or a character I'm convinced really matters; we can't make stage rules to baby him. Ganon is an actual shame, but Ganon can deal with every other stage so Ganon mains just have to use a stage ban on Duck Hunt (we run multiple stage bans per player which should be the norm, but even if you only have one, DH is the only one Ganon truly needs). Tree camping might also work against someone like Zelda who has too severe of a case of being bad and is feasible to consistently avoid in juggle situations, but even there, you're pretty much choosing to win the hard way so it doesn't really make sense.

I've been playing on this stage a lot since launch; it's a good stage. The tree is an interesting stage element, not a problem. This stage is meaningfully different from FD in several ways. We have a lot of crazy talk here.

---

PS2 is a good stage overall. Yeah, controlling the center on the electric form is pretty strong, but oh well? So let's say Yoshi gets to the center while someone else is on the edge and Yoshi just starts throwing eggs from the center and the other guy decides to wait it out on the ledge. That wastes 30 seconds; how does it in any way promote the Yoshi player winning? He will hit with precisely zero eggs while doing this if his opponent is competent. It's just a stalling tactic that wastes "not very much" time; we shouldn't be banning stages for something like that.

I should go into basic PS2 strategy; it's a strategically interesting stage, and thinking about it might help people out on it. The stage transforms at fixed times, and in general, you get a large advantage for controlling center stage during those times. Electric form is obvious how being in the center enhances your options, but ground lets you have free decision on which side of the mountain you want to be on, ice puts you in position to do sliding usmash in either direction and generally take full advantage of the extra movement, and wind puts you in best position to avoid being put in an especially bad juggle situation. The interesting side point is that neutral form kinda favors being a bit off-center, under the platforms for cover. You have a bit of a spatial control ebb and flow on PS2 as the optimum position to be in when it's not about to transform is off from the optimum transformation position, and since these positions are going to be contested often you won't be able to quickly assume things like good central control on electric. You may have a longer battle to try to seize it (which could last for the duration of the form), you could have someone who is down win control and actually need to convert it and not just stall it out (which generally means going out onto the conveyors and trying to play that game), or you could just mutually be stuck on conveyors for a long time. It's not strategically shallow, and I find it's pretty common for actual action to occur on that form as it's often in the best interests of one of the players to make it happen.

---

Good stage procedure also seriously limits concerns over what you feel about one stage or another. As I've proposed at several points, 13 legal stages all starters with 2 stage bans per side. This effectively gives you huge latitude to play around any stage you don't like either as a player or for particular match-ups. Like if you don't like Windy Hill Zone and it's legal, you can always strike and ban it and still have 5 other strikes left for game one and one more stage ban left for game two which is really more than enough to take care of other strategic concerns (like always banning FD against anyone you suspect has a pocket Mac, getting rid of the handful of "this specific character I main is really bad on this one particular stage" cases, and generally try to steer the type of stage in game one toward the gameplay dynamics you believe will help you win in the match-up. The way people talk about having legal stages is like, if we have this one stage they don't like legal, they'll be forced to play 15 games on it per tournament and it will always be played in every possible worst case scenario match-up. That's not how it works if the rest of the rules are good; you have good procedure, and that means that players who have significant concerns over specific stages can just not play on them. There doesn't need to be guilty until proven innocent on stages; the rest of the stage rules are designed to make the game play very well even if a stage might be a problem at any given time.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

@ Terotrous

PS2 also isn't as polarizing of a stage as PS1 due to the stage size and blast zones. The PS layout is far more unique than the battlefield layout (In melee, 4 of the 6 follow the layout) so having both is redundant, especially considering the similarities to FD. Also, many places have both legal, just not on a major level.

And once again, the too many stages thing is more off of community perception. At least on these boards, I've seen most Smash 4 players saying more is better, while PM players saying that you don't want too many. I fail to see how PM has less potentially legal stages than Smash 4.

 

[ぱみゅ]

PM devs went as far as to remove all problematic transformations from Pictochat. And that stage is still illegal in most if not all PM tournaments.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I think its just best to agree to disagree.

Same thing happened to Castle Seige when they took out the second form (it's back now tho)

 

[leekslap]

PS2 has never been "perfectly good". People have hated the Electric transformation since day 1.


Also, how is it that people have no issue with banning Wuhu Island for one of its stops, yet PS2 is immune, despite the fact that PS2's transformations are like 10 times more disruptive?



Note that PM's PS2 is a vastly better stage that doesn't transform.

Also, Smash4 has even more legal stages than PM.



Top 6 is obvious IMO and I've been using this for ages. IMO, Brinstar is still very suspect, there's just a lot of strange stuff involving those weird little balls where you can either get stuck on them or glitch through them or whatever.



I'm not really shocked. I brought up the tree as a potential issue the first time we discussed the stage. It's not a huge loss IMO, as noted the stage is very similar to FD except for the tree.

Top 3 is fairly obvious. There's a couple of reasons why the counterpicks wouldn't be wanted. Prism Tower is a playground for multi jump characters. They can go under the stage and shark like there's no other way to play. The transitions occasionally saves you when otherwise you would plummet to your doom Randall style. Arena Ferox has solid platforms that could easily mess up the general strategy of play. Tomodachi Life is visually jarring and lends to campier matches. The reason they are fine because they add something worth going through those kinds of things, and because nobody plays that way or can't play that way for than a while. The only other stages I am considering is Gaur Plains and Reset Bomb Forest.

 

[ATH_]

So may I ask, which stages outside of the common neutrals (FD, BF, Smashville, Town & City) are still being conversed about here?

My private group of 3DS players decided to vote off Arena Ferox because of a phase in which you can pseudo-infinite (since the transformation goes away in time) with many characters' up-smash/ jab locks. The phase in which there's a solid floating brick that can't be jumped through. It can be DI'd out of but if the other player is really good it's hard to get out. Teching works wonders, but we're talking an online thing where lag makes it frustrating to tech. We mainly voted it off for the purpose of just not having fun on the stage if you think about it from a general view.

We now use the main 3 starters with Prism Tower as the one counterpick, and it's been pretty fun ever since we got rid of stuff like Reset Bomb Forest and Tomodachi Life. As much as I like other stages, I can still enjoy myself without them.

For the Wii U version, I'll probably have a vote when I open the online tourney on what stages should be allowed. I personally like a lot of the stages and if I got a group of lenient people the list would likely be 13 or so stages long. However, I do have a strict ruleset that uses 7 stages that I believe are commonly accepted as at least "Viable".

For me, I don't like OGA and Skyloft is iffy. I wanna like Skyloft but it doesn't feel right. Idk, maybe it's just that I like Delfino more because I used to speedrun the game.

The list I came up for a commonly accepted 7 stage ruleset:
Final Destination / Omega Palutena's Temple (One unit, not other Omegas)
Battlefield
Smashville
Counterpicks:
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Halberd

I am one of the people against Duck Hunt being a viable stage. It just feels like an Omega stage with crappy design. Just my opinion though, and I do see why others like it.

Omegas have too many differences between one another and therefore should not just be allowed because people are too lazy to drag their cursor to a stage. Consistency in stages > Laziness, please.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

For the Wii U version, I'll probably have a vote when I open the online tourney on what stages should be allowed. I personally like a lot of the stages and if I got a group of lenient people the list would likely be 13 or so stages long. However, I do have a strict ruleset that uses 7 stages that I believe are commonly accepted as at least "Viable".

For me, I don't like OGA and Skyloft is iffy. I wanna like Skyloft but it doesn't feel right. Idk, maybe it's just that I like Delfino more because I used to speedrun the game.

Just small opinion, honestly I feel that Skyloft is a bit nicer than Delfino due to less water, but that might just be me.

The list I came up for a commonly accepted 7 stage ruleset:
Final Destination / Omega Palutena's Temple (One unit, not other Omegas)
Battlefield
Smashville
Counterpicks:
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Halberd

For a common acceptance, this is about right. Halberd tends to be iffy, especially at tourney's around here, (curse you east coast conservatives!) but those seem like a pretty solid seven.

I am one of the people against Duck Hunt being a viable stage. It just feels like an Omega stage with crappy design. Just my opinion though, and I do see why others like it.

I think the tree, bushes, and changed borders make Duck Hunt a fairly interesting stage. Besides, Melee used Dreamland and Battlefield, which have the same overall design, with a few size differences.

Omegas have too many differences between one another and therefore should not just be allowed because people are too lazy to drag their cursor to a stage. Consistency in stages > Laziness, please.

Generally I find that the small differences between Omegas make them good for counterpicking. If FD is counterpicked, than I personally believe an Omega could be substituted, as it rewards stage knowledge if you pick a stage factors you could take advantage of, such as traction changes, stage shape, and other things.

 

[ぱみゅ]

My private group of 3DS players decided to vote off Arena Ferox because of a phase in which you can pseudo-infinite (since the transformation goes away in time) with many characters' up-smash/ jab locks. The phase in which there's a solid floating brick that can't be jumped through. It can be DI'd out of but if the other player is really good it's hard to get out. Teching works wonders, but we're talking an online thing where lag makes it frustrating to tech. We mainly voted it off for the purpose of just not having fun on the stage if you think about it from a general view.

Now that's a silly reason. Sadly, it's the reasoning most people use nowadays.

We now use the main 3 starters with Prism Tower as the one counterpick, and it's been pretty fun ever since we got rid of stuff like Reset Bomb Forest and Tomodachi Life. As much as I like other stages, I can still enjoy myself without them.

What's wrong with Tomodachi Life? That stage is wonderful for characters with good vertical movement like WFT.


I didn't really read the rest because you said it's for an online tournament and you said you voted Arena Ferox out earlier for silly reasons so that's probably how you'l handle these anyway.



I'm starting to lose faith on defending stage play.[/color]

 

[webbedspace]

Omegas have too many differences between one another and therefore should not just be allowed because people are too lazy to drag their cursor to a stage. Consistency in stages > Laziness, please.

Yes, because everyone knows adding walls to FD makes Diddy unbeatable : p But seriously: the differences are well-documented by now, and screaming because the opponent picked a walled omega then hit with Villager's bowling ball is a situation where you should really just congratulate them instead.

 

[ATH_]

Now that's a silly reason. Sadly, it's the reasoning most people use nowadays.

What's wrong with Tomodachi Life? That stage is wonderful for characters with good vertical movement like WFT.

I didn't really read the rest because you said it's for an online tournament and you said you voted Arena Ferox out earlier for silly reasons so that's probably how you'l handle these anyway.

I'm starting to lose faith on defending stage play.[/color]

Well that's fairly judgmental, but I respect it. The latter of the post is better, and as I did say in the Arena Ferox part, I personally don't mind having stages like Tomodachi, Ferox, and maybe even Brinstar, however it's that the majority of the group decided to vote it off with those reasons. If we voted to keep it, there would also be reasons to keep it, as we discussed. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

Just small opinion, honestly I feel that Skyloft is a bit nicer than Delfino due to less water, but that might just be me.



For a common acceptance, this is about right. Halberd tends to be iffy, especially at tourney's around here, (curse you east coast conservatives!) but those seem like a pretty solid seven.




I think the tree, bushes, and changed borders make Duck Hunt a fairly interesting stage. Besides, Melee used Dreamland and Battlefield, which have the same overall design, with a few size differences.



Generally I find that the small differences between Omegas make them good for counterpicking. If FD is counterpicked, than I personally believe an Omega could be substituted, as it rewards stage knowledge if you pick a stage factors you could take advantage of, such as traction changes, stage shape, and other things.

You see, I can agree with you and this is why I'm okay with said things as tournaments, however I personally just don't think that if I hosted a strict tourney that I would have said things.

 

[Pazx]

@ ATH_ @ Omegaphoenix I actually think that's a pretty bad stage list for a couple of reasons, so I have some questions.

1. Only 3 starters, why?
2. Is "I don't like Duck Hunt" an acceptable reason to omit a stage?
3. Delfino over Skyloft?
4. Delfino over Duck Hunt?
5. Delfino over Kongo Jungle?
6. Repeat questions 3-5 with Halberd in place of Delfino.
7. If you had to pick 1 of Skyloft, Castle Siege and Delfino, why would you choose the stage with the most "bad" transformations?
8. Why can't the counterpicking player choose which Omega stage to play on?
9. Why did you bring up Orbital Gate Assault when there are stages like Wuhu, Siege, Norfair, PS2, Woolly World, Windy Hill, etc. which are all more competitively viable than OGA?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'll just add that, if it was voted out, logic won't make it into anyone's head.

Just as organizers said here: https://www.facebook.com/events/321152068082677/permalink/330018363862714/?qa_ref=qd
there is no point on debating, people just vote, say yes/no and move on.

 

[ATH_]

@ ATH_ @ Omegaphoenix I actually think that's a pretty bad stage list for a couple of reasons, so I have some questions.

1. Only 3 starters, why?
2. Is "I don't like Duck Hunt" an acceptable reason to omit a stage?
3. Delfino over Skyloft?
4. Delfino over Duck Hunt?
5. Delfino over Kongo Jungle?
6. Repeat questions 3-5 with Halberd in place of Delfino.
7. If you had to pick 1 of Skyloft, Castle Siege and Delfino, why would you choose the stage with the most "bad" transformations?
8. Why can't the counterpicking player choose which Omega stage to play on?
9. Why did you bring up Orbital Gate Assault when there are stages like Wuhu, Norfair, PS2, Woolly World, Windy Hill, etc. which are all more competitively viable than OGA?

A: Thank you for the well thought out post. Not a joke, I'm serious.

1. Quicker tourney, not by much but it's quicker.
2. No, it's not, I have reasoning I just didn't state it. Basically I share TK's opinion on Duck Hunt
3. It's more accepted than Skyloft, as said, the list was about the commonly accepted. It's more accepted because people used it in Brawl, I personally think both should be allowed.
4. Good point, however I believe there's more people who dislike Duck Hunt than dislike Delfino.
5. I like Kongo Jungle A LOT, but lately I've seen more people not like it. Again, this list was based on what's COMMONLY accepted. Meaning I may disagree with it and others may disagree with it. However, I was thinking of switching the two stages anyway.
6.1. Yes actually, I personally prefer Halberd over Skyloft and believe that a lot of people agree. Not a fact, just observation.
6.2. I'm not a fan of Duck Hunt and I know that it's under decent controversy.
6.3. Halberd and Kongo Jungle hit it pretty evenly for me. I chose Halberd because of it being a stage in Brawl as well that people would be used to playing on.
7. This is a good view and point, as stated before, it was based on the common opinion rather than my own. I agree with this.
8. Stated after the original post. I believe that with all of the differences in Omega stages that they shouldn't be allowed to keep consistency, with slight exceptions like w/walls or palutena's.
9. I love Wuhu Island and I only brought up OGA as an extra point to add to the thread ^^ It wasn't like a "This was close but no" but more of just an added thing I said for no particular reason.


I'll likely post a list of my personal preferred stages, to clear up what I meant before.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

@ ATH_ @ Omegaphoenix I actually think that's a pretty bad stage list for a couple of reasons, so I have some questions.

1. Only 3 starters, why?
2. Is "I don't like Duck Hunt" an acceptable reason to omit a stage?
3. Delfino over Skyloft?
4. Delfino over Duck Hunt?
5. Delfino over Kongo Jungle?
6. Repeat questions 3-5 with Halberd in place of Delfino.
7. If you had to pick 1 of Skyloft, Castle Siege and Delfino, why would you choose the stage with the most "bad" transformations?
8. Why can't the counterpicking player choose which Omega stage to play on?
9. Why did you bring up Orbital Gate Assault when there are stages like Wuhu, Siege, Norfair, PS2, Woolly World, Windy Hill, etc. which are all more competitively viable than OGA?

Personally, I disagree with the list, but from the tourney's I've gone to, I've rarely had KJ legal, never had Skyloft legal, with Halberd and Delfino being more common. It might just be weird rules though, and honestly I believe Skyloft, Duck Hunt, and KJ are all good, I just don't see much support for them in my area, so I thought the list showed a pretty good seven. I believe there should be way more, but it's an okay start

 

[webbedspace]

I feel like even talking about some ruleset being "just" for "strict tourneys", as compared to "non-strict" tourneys, is blind to reality: the number of "non-strict" tourneys is so low as to be practically negligible. Strict stage lists are the overwhelming norm.

 

[Terotrous]

The ignorance on PS2 is hurting me over the internet...

Why do people think different=bad?
It just takes a bit of knowledge and adaptation and voila, a fair stage.
Even if you don't really like a certain phase, 30 seconds isn't a whole lot to stall out

How exactly do you "adapt" to a stage where it takes 5 seconds to get back to the ground even if you fast-fall? Put the controller down and take a nap to recharge your mental energy inbetween bouts of actual combat?

I can play PS2 just fine. I just don't like the fact that every minute it transforms from a great stage to a generally bad stage.

PM devs went as far as to remove all problematic transformations from Pictochat. And that stage is still illegal in most if not all PM tournaments.

Pictochat is actually a superior stage to PS2 IMO. Its transformations don't linger as long and few of them are as disruptive as PS2's transformations. I allow that level in funsies when playing Brawl / PM. Still shouldn't be legal for tournies though.

The only other stages I am considering is Gaur Plains and Reset Bomb Forest.

Gaur Plain is the circle campiest stage ever, even for doubles I don't think it's very legal. Reset Bomb Forest is definitely one of the most legal of the remaining stages (probably moreso than Brinstar), though the second transformation has some issues. If it was just transformation 1 it'd be legal for sure.

The list I came up for a commonly accepted 7 stage ruleset:
Final Destination / Omega Palutena's Temple (One unit, not other Omegas)
Battlefield
Smashville
Counterpicks:
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Halberd

Skyloft over Halberd IMO. Other than that it looks fine for a 7-stage list.

What's wrong with Tomodachi Life? That stage is wonderful for characters with good vertical movement like WFT.

Note that I do support Tomodachi Life pretty heavily. That's an example of a stage that provides something interesting without being disruptive.

3. Delfino over Skyloft?
4. Delfino over Duck Hunt?
5. Delfino over Kongo Jungle?

Delfino is a good stage (it was only banned in Brawl because of MK), I'm not exactly sure what you're going on about.

 

[ATH_]

The List of Stages that I believe are good/okay for tourneys and such (To clear up from what I was saying before):
Final Destination / Omega Palutena's Temple
Battlefield / Miiverse
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Plaza
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Custom Stages (That are based on existing stages)
Big Battlefield
Windy Hill Zone
Castle Siege
Luigi's Mansion

These are in no order pretty much, just saying.
Explanations:

I prefer Battlefield and Smashville over Final Destination in this game, however, it's not really relevant as they are the best 3 stages in the game (at least to my opinion). I would easily rate SV a 10.0, BF a 9.8, and FD a 9.5. Final Destination is just camped a lot in this game as we all should know by now with For Glory. Projectiles dominate a lot of players and can be a bit annoying to get past for higher level players.

Town & City I like a lot, but it just doesn't do it as well as Smashville. Very good stage though, however some platforms do feel a bit high up.

Lylat Cruise is both a hated and loved stage by many and I am right down the middle. Yes it's hard to recover with some characters on it due to it's below-stage layout, but it also gives us a really nice layout overall for characters with short jump heights.

Delfino Plaza and Skyloft are both good, Skyloft has 2 cases where the background intrudes into the stage, however this is more noticeably there than in Mario Circuit (MK8). Delfino's as good as it, at least to me, but I may become more of a Skyloft fan, as it HAS been growing on me the more I play it.

Pokemon Stadium 2, again, I wouldn't MIND playing on this stage but I can see why people don't like it. The transformations don't happen for a while and aren't there for long, but they are very annoying and with almost all of them it's just better for both players to sit and camp until it goes back to normal.

Halberd is a stage I like and think deserves more credit. I've seen some people complain about Captain Falcon's grab release at the start of this stage, and to them, I say to mash harder. There are hazards when the initial layout lands, however I think they are pretty avoidable. Sometimes your opponent will use them to pressure you enough and kill you, so I can see why some people don't like it.

Kongo Jungle is a stage I love a lot but is discredited by a lot as well. I think the stage is great, but I understand the complaints. The barrel is weird and maybe the platform placement could be better. But I don't think it should be removed from lists for it.

Wuhu Island is fun and a good stage. That is all.

Big Battlefield and Windy Hill Zone both have the issue of being large, but again, this is a list of stages I would be okay with playing on. Not necessarily would agree with.

Castle Siege, oh boy. Yes I don't like this stage and I really think more people should be removing it from their lists, however, I will play on it when it's needed. This stage's second transformation just makes me want to vomit. Statues, 2 walkoff angles, ugh. I like the other 2 but this one is just so bad.

Luigi's Mansion is another one of those stages that I'm literally just "okay" with and nothing more. :3

Custom Stages based off of Wario Ware's initial room, Pokemon Stadium's non-transformed design, and stuff similar I am okay with. I love making new custom stages that are balanced, however, I do not like the idea of playing on a brand new stage in a tournament that someone made. We likely wouldn't get it to be popular enough to be accepted everywhere either, as that would be a longrun in itself.

As for Duck Hunt, I don't like it, but it's okay and I wouldn't mind playing on it. Simple.

Niche Stages That I would be okay with playing at a rare tourney:
Woolly World
Mario Circuit (MK8)
Gamer
Maybe the Walkoff Stages

I might as well provide some explanations:

I am not okay with Orbital Gate Assault even as a surprise tourney pick. I don't think the stage has really any competitive value, however, it may be fun between friendlies.

Mario Circuit (MK8) is one of the stages that I love to play on but do not think it's proper for a competitive environment. The background having the occasional hitbox is exceedingly easy to take advantage of if you know it's on the way. If that was removed then this would be a very good stage. Good as a surprise pick though!

Gamer and Woolly World both have layout differentation which can be annoying. In Woolly World it's not as bad because it only is flipped, while in Gamer it's either you get the good stage layout or the bad ones. However, it is a fun stage, even in competitive games, so I'm okay with it as a surprise pick.

Walkoffs are a problem, yes, however I don't mind playing on them when say it's against a friend who I know wouldn't just camp it. In a tournament I have it under "Maybe" because I know I would run into people who would walk off camp. Solid maybe, would generally be a turnoff though.

Bam, super long post but hopefully this clears some things up on my opinions of stages.

 

[Piford]

Castle Siege, oh boy. Yes I don't like this stage and I really think more people should be removing it from their lists, however, I will play on it when it's needed. This stage's second transformation just makes me want to vomit. Statues, 4 walkoff angles, ugh. I like the other 2 but this one is just so bad..

The banners aren't walk-offs

 

[ATH_]

The banners aren't walk-offs

Oops! Typo. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[ぱみゅ]

How exactly do you "adapt" to a stage where it takes 5 seconds to get back to the ground even if you fast-fall? Put the controller down and take a nap to recharge your mental energy inbetween bouts of actual combat?

actual combat

I see how it is. You like to play 3 stages only, right? Those that don't move at all and lets you blindly run to your opponent.
I see I see.

I can play PS2 just fine. I just don't like the fact that every minute it transforms from a great stage to a generally bad stage.

"Bad" in this case, is an opinion. A general consensus, but an opinion anyway.
But I'm sick of debating it, so, whatever.

Pictochat is actually a superior stage to PS2 IMO. Its transformations don't linger as long and few of them are as disruptive as PS2's transformations. I allow that level in funsies when playing Brawl / PM. Still shouldn't be legal for tournies though.

Are you sure you know BRAWL's Pictochat?
PM's Pictochat is just a VERY dynamic stage, not janky, not disruptive, just constantly changing. If you still think it's bad then there is no point on continuing this argument.

 

[Captain Norris]

Can someone please give me the absolute best stage list with Neutrals and counterpicks right now? Preferably, all the stages everyone absolutely agrees upon.

 

[Uniit]

Can someone please give me the absolute best stage list with Neutrals and counterpicks right now? Preferably, all the stages everyone absolutely agrees upon.

Neutral :
Smashville

Here you go.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can someone please give me the absolute best stage list with Neutrals and counterpicks right now? Preferably, all the stages everyone absolutely agrees upon.

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville

In all seriousness, you're asking us for something that doesn't exist; we're still trying to figure out which stages do and don't work in the first place. You may as well ask us for the post-Apex tier list.

 

[Protom]

Neutral :
Smashville

Here you go.

SHH!! Before they believe it-
Oh wait, they already are. Practically 2/3 of matches are played there already..

 

[Pazx]

Can someone please give me the absolute best stage list with Neutrals and counterpicks right now? Preferably, all the stages everyone absolutely agrees upon.

Without any CP/Starter distinction:

Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Lylat Cruise

Six. Six stages is not enough, so you are required to pick at least one from the following, however there is nothing even close to a consensus at this point:
Halberd/Skyloft/Kongo Jungle/Delfino/Castle Siege

If and only you choose all 11 of those stages, you are then welcome to begin including these stages:
Wuhu Island/Pokemon Stadium 2/Norfair/Windy Hill Zone

I think it is very likely we will have to settle for a 10 stage list and if you're looking for consistency that is what you should be basing your stage list off, Castle Siege misses out. I would prefer 13ish.

Delfino is a good stage (it was only banned in Brawl because of MK), I'm not exactly sure what you're going on about.

Delfino is a good stage, Skyloft, Duck Hunt and KJ64 are all significantly better. Halberd is probably better too, and you claim Skyloft > Halberd, therefore Skyloft should be the pick of the bunch.

 

[Captain Norris]

Neutral :
Smashville

Here you go.

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville

In all seriousness, you're asking us for something that doesn't exist; we're still trying to figure out which stages do and don't work in the first place. You may as well ask us for the post-Apex tier list.

I asked because I thought there would have been some form of a list already in the mix :/

Without any CP/Starter distinction:

Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Lylat Cruise

Six. Six stages is not enough, so you are required to pick at least one from the following, however there is nothing even close to a consensus at this point:
Halberd/Skyloft/Kongo Jungle/Delfino/Castle Siege

If and only you choose all 11 of those stages, you are then welcome to begin including these stages:
Wuhu Island/Pokemon Stadium 2/Norfair/Windy Hill Zone

I think it is very likely we will have to settle for a 10 stage list and if you're looking for consistency that is what you should be basing your stage list off, Castle Siege misses out. I would prefer 13ish.



Delfino is a good stage, Skyloft, Duck Hunt and KJ64 are all significantly better. Halberd is probably better too, and you claim Skyloft > Halberd, therefore Skyloft should be the pick of the bunch.

Thank you very much. Super useful, and what I had expected.
Woudl it be alright to count the first six as starter and then the other 5 as counter pick, and then from there?

 

[Pazx]

Thank you very much. Super useful, and what I had expected.
Woudl it be alright to count the first six as starter and then the other 5 as counter pick, and then from there?

You have to have either 5 or 7 starter stages, so you either move Duck Hunt/Lylat to CP or bring Skyloft to starter.

Also I don't want to be misleading, as far as a general consensus goes only the first 6 stages I named have any sort of agreement about their legality, but we have agreed that we need 7 stages at the absolute minimum.

Edit: I recommend playing on the first 11 stages I mentioned because that means you will play almost any stage you'll encounter in tournament (most of which will run between 8 and 11stages)

 

[Captain Norris]

You have to have either 5 or 7 starter stages, so you either move Duck Hunt/Lylat to CP or bring Skyloft to starter.

Also I don't want to be misleading, as far as a general consensus goes only the first 6 stages I named have any sort of agreement about their legality, but we have agreed that we need 7 stages at the absolute minimum.

Right. Like what the guys above had also said, nothign has been fully established. I jsut needed a path to make a decent stage list. Thanks.

 

[Piford]

You have to have either 5 or 7 starter stages

Actually you generally want to have 5 or 9 starter stages as 7 gives an advantage to the person who strikes second.

 

[Ticker]

Right. Like what the guys above had also said, nothign has been fully established. I jsut needed a path to make a decent stage list. Thanks.

I'd probably keep lylat a starter over duck hunt or skyloft.