Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[CatRaccoonBL]

My thoughts on the matter:

Starters:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Town and City
Miiverse (when it gets here)

Counterpicks:
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Castle Siege
Pilotwings
Kongo Jungle 64 (doubles only)

Debatable:
Pokémon Stadium 2
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone
Wii Fit Studio
Coliseum
Wrecking Crew

Banned:
Everything else

Miiverse looks like just a battlefield skin so it would probably count the same as it.

Pilotwings have spots where you can camp without anyone effectively be able to attack you on both planes so it is banned.

Duck hunt looks more starter material. Nothing is too out of the ordinary on that stage.

Wuhu Island isn't really too dateable, more like people don't know how legal stages work. The thing is, despite the walk offs, people have to give up stage positioning in order to attempt it. Which then means camping isn't a dominant strategy. The glitch is also very difficult, (almost impossible), to perform if thats also a reason.

 

[HavocThunder]

I had another really long post ready to go in the other thread that was merged with this one, but I'll cut it short and bring up something else interesting about Wrecking Crew.

There's only three not-custom stages in the entirety of Smash's history (including PM) that have ladders: Wrecking Crew, 75m, and Rumble Falls. I'm 99% sure no one has seriously tested the effect of ladders in 75m and Rumble Falls in Brawl in matches, so I'm going to come out swinging hard on this one:

Until there is definitive proof that considers every aspect of Wrecking Crew, including ladders and the bombs' effects on the stage, Wrecking Crew does not have circle camping and needs to be allowed as a counterpick in both singles and doubles. Everything I've dug up about this stage has shown that it's a predictable stage with a learning curve. If it's going to be debatable we need a real debate on this. I want to see some hard facts to back up that its size is unmanageable, because otherwise, it IS manageable!

I'm arguing that it is possible to catch someone using ladders, bombs, and good reads, so the proof has to show there's a scenario where it's impossible to catch someone, even after considering ladders, bombs, and making good reads. Even then, it's probably just a matchup specific thing where the disadvantaged can ban the stage during a set.

Ladders at the very least have not been investigated at all and MUST be considered to ban Wrecking Crew, since very few stages in Smash actually have them. It would be crazy to ban it and not consider a possible obvious solution to circle camping/too big complaints.You climb up and down those things super fast, has anyone noticed that? ._.

Honestly, all of that sounds really tough, so can we just let it rock until the proof is found? Give the metagame on WC some room to breathe and I'm sure players will find interesting ways to be aggressive!

 

[Linq]

For my picks, I'm just going to list ones that go either go against general consensus or have separate reasoning.

Counterpick
Orbital Gate Assault: All hazards are temporary, predictable by clock-watching, and nonlethal at reasonable damage (<100%). Form transitions are not scroll-based.

Luigi's Mansion: caves of life can be destroyed easily at any time

Kalos Pokemon League: while transitions seem to be random, once the transition is decided the effects can be predicted.

Norfair: all hazards are temporary and give enough warning to respond, even while recovering. Lava plumes only strike the center of platforms, and will not impede recovery attempts.


Banned
Lylat Cruise and Omega: the nature of the edges can make it literally impossible for a certain characters such as Zelda to sweetspot the ledges from certain positions due to dead zones on the analog sticks.


Debatable
Wrecking Crew: the camera will often be too zoomed in to see two floors above, and destroying supports can cause more floors than this to fall at once, giving no prior indication of the location of barrels on floors above. If the poster above me is correct that it is predictable, then definitely counterpick.

Halberd: target of weapons is determined at random (I think), and depending on position it can force death (ie, person is hit off stage at low angle, laser warms up and fires just below the edge, character can't recover or will be hit and killed by laser.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I still don't understand what people see in Luigi's Mansion...

Sure, you can destroy the building, but that can put you in a bad position in taking the time to do so. Also, it doesn't really deter from the fact that it is campy as all hell.

Not to mention... cave of life lol. Really, imo its just an awful, awful stage.

Also the notion that Lylat, a stage that is perfectly tame and only tilts some, should be banned while Orbital Gate, with its bad hazards, awkward transitions, and just poor platform layout, legal just baffles me completely.

 

[Dazzap]

I had another really long post ready to go in the other thread that was merged with this one, but I'll cut it short and bring up something else interesting about Wrecking Crew.

There's only three not-custom stages in the entirety of Smash's history (including PM) that have ladders: Wrecking Crew, 75m, and Rumble Falls. I'm 99% sure no one has seriously tested the effect of ladders in 75m and Rumble Falls in Brawl in matches, so I'm going to come out swinging hard on this one:

Until there is definitive proof that considers every aspect of Wrecking Crew, including ladders and the bombs' effects on the stage, Wrecking Crew does not have circle camping and needs to be allowed as a counterpick in both singles and doubles. Everything I've dug up about this stage has shown that it's a predictable stage with a learning curve. If it's going to be debatable we need a real debate on this. I want to see some hard facts to back up that its size is unmanageable, because otherwise, it IS manageable!

I'm arguing that it is possible to catch someone using ladders, bombs, and good reads, so the proof has to show there's a scenario where it's impossible to catch someone, even after considering ladders, bombs, and making good reads. Even then, it's probably just a matchup specific thing where the disadvantaged can ban the stage during a set.

Ladders at the very least have not been investigated at all and MUST be considered to ban Wrecking Crew, since very few stages in Smash actually have them. It would be crazy to ban it and not consider a possible obvious solution to circle camping/too big complaints.You climb up and down those things super fast, has anyone noticed that? ._.

Honestly, all of that sounds really tough, so can we just let it rock until the proof is found? Give the metagame on WC some room to breathe and I'm sure players will find interesting ways to be aggressive!

You Should make it a sub thead. Maybe it does have competitive viability. Yeah, they merged my thread.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I still don't understand what people see in Luigi's Mansion...

Sure, you can destroy the building, but that can put you in a bad position in taking the time to do so. Also, it doesn't really deter from the fact that it is campy as all hell.

Not to mention... cave of life lol. Really, imo its just an awful, awful stage.

Also the notion that Lylat, a stage that is perfectly tame and only tilts some, should be banned while Orbital Gate, with its bad hazards, awkward transitions, and just poor platform layout, legal just baffles me completely.

Orbital gate doesn't really have any bad hazards. The missile and shield don't do too much and because they are always in the same place, it is easily avoided. As for the missile blowing up, that does no damage anyway.

Awkward transitions isn't ban worthy because it doesn't matter if you memorize the stage.

Actually, the real reason Oribital gate is probably going to get banned is camping. I don't know the details, but apparently @ LiteralGrill found out you can camp on that stage.

Lylat should be legal though.

 

[HavocThunder]

Debatable
Wrecking Crew: the camera will often be too zoomed in to see two floors above, and destroying supports can cause more floors than this to fall at once, giving no prior indication of the location of barrels on floors above. If the poster above me is correct that it is predictable, then definitely counterpick.

You're right about the zoomed in camera, but barrels will never randomly fall on anyone who's played the stage enough:

• Wrecking Crew has set distinct layouts that it uses and cycles between them as it gets destroyed. I need to go gather some pictures of each layout, but I believe it's 4 or 5 different layouts. Go into Training Mode and reset the stage a bunch of times and you'll see each one. I also need to check if it cycles in a specific order or whether it's "pick a random layout that hasn't been used yet".
• Barrels are always in the same place on every layout, so after playing the stage enough, you'll get a feel for where the barrels are. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that very important point.
• It's always clear what floors will break and where when the stage is falling because the rules are well defined.
• It never hurts to do some scouting when the stage isn't blowing up.
• Play in the center middle of the stage so you can see everything.
• As soon as you hit someone and they fly away, you can see what the stage looks like and what layout it's on. (Take notes so you can set up a barrel later)

If none of these work, then we've got a problem, but that's a lot of different options.

You know, I wonder if in the event match, it cycles between all the layouts once and then stops... *investigates*

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Wrecking crew. I love the stage. I really do. The hazards aren't too bad and are easily avoidable.

But the thing that kills wrecking crew is the size making camping a big deal. Running away is very easy to do on that stage.

I would love to see it, but I'm fine with Omega Wrecking crew.

 

[LiteralGrill]

On Wrecking Crew: I'm hosting an entire tournament to test stages right? It's not like I don't already have some giant stages, maybe I can find a place for it @ HavocThunder if you write up that full guide and explain to players how to avoid the camping issues. But I already got Big Battlefield and Woolly World that I know are going to be abused pretty bad, so I'm scared of adding in another big stage that wasn't even remotely popular on the poll. I'd need serious proof this thing can work.

 

[Asdioh]

http://puu.sh/dt3op/00bb7218e5.webm

I just wanted to show that Skyloft is capable of doing this.

 

[Piford]

http://puu.sh/dt3op/00bb7218e5.webm

I just wanted to show that Skyloft is capable of doing this.

It was already known that skyloft can damage you, you just got to watch out for it.

Edit: Anther's Ladder just banned Halberd and Castle Siege. This could really hurt those stages as people might start to think they deserved to be banned even if they don't.

 

[HavocThunder]

Wrecking crew. I love the stage. I really do. The hazards aren't too bad and are easily avoidable.

But the thing that kills wrecking crew is the size making camping a big deal. Running away is very easy to do on that stage.

I would love to see it, but I'm fine with Omega Wrecking crew.

When you say running away, what specific tactic on WC are you suggesting makes it impossible to catch up to someone? What characters and what matchups? I would like to hear some specific references to stage mechanics.

I'm suggesting that the stage should at least be a counterpick, so I'm willing to accept that there will be bad and good matchups on this stage. What stage doesn't?

The point I wanted to make earlier is that this "running away/too big" claim has no proof. No one knows anything about ladders and their effect in matches, and that's already enough to warrant investigation. Ladders can be used to vertically get around pretty fast.

You can't circle camp with two ladders because:

• Every layout with a ladder has a bomb spawner next to it
  
• 2 ladders can't hold up the stage by themselves

The stage is smartly designed so potentially circle campy layouts always have a way of being destroyed. If you're running away too much, you're letting the opponent have their way with the stage. They'll checkmate you with a barrel because they have control over when the barrels will fall. If you can consistently run away despite all this, you deserve real applause for some serious stage awareness.

WC and only WC has these kind of options. I think the stage rules were very well thought out!

On Wrecking Crew: I'm hosting an entire tournament to test stages right? It's not like I don't already have some giant stages, maybe I can find a place for it @ HavocThunder if you write up that full guide and explain to players how to avoid the camping issues. But I already got Big Battlefield and Woolly World that I know are going to be abused pretty bad, so I'm scared of adding in another big stage that wasn't even remotely popular on the poll. I'd need serious proof this thing can work.

I would be so happy to see Wrecking Crew in your tournament! (I should enter myself) I'm looking at the rules but I'm wondering something. What are you testing for in these stages? That people like them? I wouldn't expect anyone to be happy with WC the first couple of times, but we'll see!

I'd like someone to prove me wrong, but I've been using evidence from the stage this whole time. All of it can be verified if you go into training mode and see it for yourself. Even if you showed video of people circle camping, I'd ask "Have they exhausted all their options on this stage? Anything they overlooked while playing?" That's why I'm curious about the combination of bombs and ladders because they seem to compliment each other well.

I'll go make another write-up, attach some pictures + video this time, and list all the different tough scenarios with their options so I can deliver my coup de grace on the "too big" point. I'll see if it I can get it up and going before the tournament on the 20th so people have a nice reference. Is that ok?

EDIT: Testing some stuff and corrected some of the assertions I made about ladders. There's a layout with 4 ladders, and every ladder in every layout has a bomb spawner next to it.

 

[Asdioh]

It was already known that skyloft can damage you, you just got to watch out for it.

I knew that. But when you're ON the stage? I thought it was only when you're far into the bottom/top corners, not standing "safely" on the stage. It's pretty lame.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

It was already known that skyloft can damage you, you just got to watch out for it.

Edit: Anther's Ladder just banned Halberd and Castle Siege. This could really hurt those stages as people might start to think they deserved to be banned even if they don't.

Why would they ban those stages? Halberd and Castle Siege are both common counter picks in Brawl tourneys IIRC, and if anything Castle Siege got better due to load times and walk off improvements. Did they give any sort of reasoning as to why they were banned, or did they just throw them on there?

 

[Asdioh]

Best player in my region mains Sonic, and he thinks Halberd could be a legit ban because the blastzones are weird in this game so Sonic gets literally free kills on upthrow->upair at lower percents
I don't see a problem with castle siege though.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Some people don't like how SDI doesn't really help against the laser, too.

Imo Halberd is fine tho. Seige, idek what's wrong with it.

 

[Piford]

Best player in my region mains Sonic, and he thinks Halberd could be a legit ban because the blastzones are weird in this game so Sonic gets literally free kills on upthrow->upair at lower percents
I don't see a problem with castle siege though.

The blastzones aren't weird, it's a low ceiling. It's always been that way and you need to strike halberd against characters with good vertical kill moves. I don't believe he gave any kind of reason, but I sent a message asking why they were banned. Also, you really shouldn't be getting hit by the laser because of how easy it is to avoid, so the fact that you can't SDI out of it is pretty trivial.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Edit: Anther's Ladder just banned Halberd and Castle Siege. This could really hurt those stages as people might start to think they deserved to be banned even if they don't.

He really needs to settle... I actually could see Halberd as that stage is more controversial then people like to admit, but Castle Siege is just weird. why is he changing his stagelist that often?

The issue I've had with Halberd is 100% at random if gives a character a pressure tool. One play is given a random reward for no reason. That is enough where if someone said "we don't want Halberd" I'd have to consider them.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

The issue I've had with Halberd is 100% at random if gives a character a pressure tool. One play is given a random reward for no reason. That is enough where if someone said "we don't want Halberd" I'd have to consider them.

Hm? Can you explain what you mean? I'm not sure I follow.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I would be so happy to see Wrecking Crew in your tournament! (I should enter myself) I'm looking at the rules but I'm wondering something. What are you testing for in these stages? That people like them? I wouldn't expect anyone to be happy with WC the first couple of times, but we'll see!

It's not just likability, but unfortunately that is a slight factor as if no one wants to even play on the stage ever it doesn't matter how good it is, people will just ban it. I'm testing to see if stages are broken, ESPECIALLY stages people thought were worth testing by either popularity (the big poll I ran) or for science.

I'd like someone to prove me wrong, but I've been using evidence from the stage this whole time. All of it can be verified if you go into training mode and see it for yourself. Even if you showed video of people circle camping, I'd ask "Have they exhausted all their options on this stage? Anything they overlooked while playing?" That's why I'm curious about the combination of bombs and ladders because they seem to compliment each other well.

It may not have perfect circle camping, but it may still make for horribly slow matches. Woolly World and Big Battlefield are going to be campy and terrible at that tournament, and I already know it (I've been ruining some lives and wasting a lot of 8 minute intervals to test timing folks out).

I'll go make another write-up, attach some pictures + video this time, and list all the different tough scenarios with their options so I can deliver my coup de grace on the "too big" point. I'll see if it I can get it up and going before the tournament on the 20th so people have a nice reference. Is that ok?

EDIT: Testing some stuff and corrected some of the assertions I made about ladders. There's a layout with 4 ladders, and every ladder in every layout has a bomb spawner next to it.

If you can do that I will consider it. I will be honest and say I'm not 100% sure I'll add it either way as I do already have more popular stages causing the same issues, but we can see.

Hm? Can you explain what you mean? I'm not sure I follow.

The laser cannon and claw pick who they target 100% at random. They are very predictable and easy to avoid yes, BUT they force whoever is being targeted into a position where they have to try and avoid them, thus giving their opponent a possibly easy free read and definitely a free pressure tool.

 

[HavocThunder]

It may not have perfect circle camping, but it may still make for horribly slow matches. Woolly World and Big Battlefield are going to be campy and terrible at that tournament, and I already know it (I've been ruining some lives and wasting a lot of 8 minute intervals to test timing folks out).

If you don't mind me asking, why is the time limit 8 minutes if it'll be an issue when someone takes advantage of it? It is a perfectly legal win condition created by the ruleset we use. Should it be shorter to avoid that?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

The laser cannon and claw pick who they target 100% at random. They are very predictable and easy to avoid yes, BUT they force whoever is being targeted into a position where they have to try and avoid them, thus giving their opponent a possibly easy free read and definitely a free pressure tool.

Well, then a couple questions need to be asked. How often does this happen?

Also, would it be THAT easy of a read? Like could someone be guaranteed a free hit? Or are there multiple ways of avoiding it so that you can position yourself again? Could you aim the laser and the claw in like the middle of the stage so no one gets the stage control?

 

[Piford]

He really needs to settle... I actually could see Halberd as that stage is more controversial then people like to admit, but Castle Siege is just weird. why is he changing his stagelist that often?

The issue I've had with Halberd is 100% at random if gives a character a pressure tool. One play is given a random reward for no reason. That is enough where if someone said "we don't want Halberd" I'd have to consider them.

The claw I agree with that it does force a random opponent to dodge for no reason (although I do believe that the second time around, the claw will target the other opponent, but this might just be me getting lucky).The claw is the reason I will always say this stage is a counterpick because that means the person who chose it is willing to take the 50/50 for that minor annoyance. The laser randomly targeting players I feel like isn't as bad. The person being targeted has both the advantage of controlling where the laser shoots, and the pressure to avoid it. This gives both players a set of tools. The person with the laser can place it in an advantageous position for them to set up for an attack. The person without the laser can force the person with it into a position that forces them to get hit. I actually really love this dynamic as it forces players to be smart and should always benefit the better player.

 

[LiteralGrill]

If you don't mind me asking, why is the time limit 8 minutes if it'll be an issue when someone takes advantage of it? It is a perfectly legal win condition created by the ruleset we use. Should it be shorter to avoid that?

We wouldn't even have a timer on at ALL if matches didn't go on forever. See Smash 64. Time isn't a rule we add on to make another win condition, it's one we honestly added purely for logistics.

Well, then a couple questions need to be asked. How often does this happen?

Also, would it be THAT easy of a read? Like could someone be guaranteed a free hit? Or are there multiple ways of avoiding it so that you can position yourself again? Could you aim the laser and the claw in like the middle of the stage so no one gets the stage control?

Well, it happens every time the claw or laser starts up. So often The laser you could try to do something with, but if your opponent can put pressure on you properly you get shot and it wasn't your fault, the stage just randomly chose you. The claw has no value, it just hits somebody and the have to be forced to dodge, shield, or whatever.

 

[HavocThunder]

We wouldn't even have a timer on at ALL if matches didn't go on forever. See Smash 64. Time isn't a rule we add on to make another win condition, it's one we honestly added purely for logistics.

If you can officially *win* by time limit, you have to consider the possibility that people will go for it. There's nothing illegitimate or broken about someone using a stage to play defensively for the whole 8 minutes because the rules allow for it. If 8 minutes is too long when it's abused, then the rule should be adjusted.

I'm only bringing all this up because it makes me wonder if the real issue behind circle camping on stages is the really long time limit. Maybe that's a discussion for another day, another thread. @_@

 

[LiteralGrill]

By increasing the time limit @ HavocThunder you just give more people time to run away. As much as you raise a fair point, no one is going to want to watch or play 30 minute + matches. (Smash 64 HAS had SINGLE matches go almost this long. We wonder why that game doesn't finish on time often.)

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about decreasing the time limit and not increasing it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about decreasing the time limit and not increasing it.

In that case it's even worse since it'd be even easier to run away.

I think this is as good a time as any to figure this out. After the 20th I want us all in here to sit down and make a recommended stagelist together. Something so whenever I or anyone sees a tournament with odd stagelists we can go "hey this is reccomended by everyone discussing stages on smashboards" and we'll all be good with it. Sound good?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

In that case it's even worse since it'd be even easier to run away.

I think this is as good a time as any to figure this out. After the 20th I want us all in here to sit down and make a recommended stagelist together. Something so whenever I or anyone sees a tournament with odd stagelists we can go "hey this is reccomended by everyone discussing stages on smashboards" and we'll all be good with it. Sound good?

Well, it does sound good...on paper.

Who gets to decide who is right for example? We could easily end up in a position where we can't be in agreement.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ CatRaccoonBL I spose worse comes to worse we just put it to a vote. It's not perfect, but at a bare minimum we could all express how we felt about every stage and provide a lot of knowledge for players.

 

[Linq]

Also the notion that Lylat, a stage that is perfectly tame and only tilts some, should be banned while Orbital Gate, with its bad hazards, awkward transitions, and just poor platform layout, legal just baffles me completely.

Perhaps banning vanilla Lylat Cruise is pushing it, but Omega Lylat Cruise should either be banned or considered separate from the other Omegas.The reason I feel this way is because the issue with Omega Lylat Cruise is a matter of controls holding specific characters back rather than any mechanic-related things. Take any character that has an up special that sends them in the direction they press (Zelda, Fox, etc). In order to sweetspot the ledge, the recovery must be aimed with absolute precision due to the small ledge and the low angled underside. In certain situations, the sweetspot direction may lie within the deadzone on the analog stick, so the character has to aim underneath in order to slide up and grab the ledge. However, any but the smallest of movements outside of the dead zone will result in sliding the wrong way because of the angle of the underside, followed by death. You were not killed by your opponent, but instead by the controller and the stage.
The low angled underside does not benefit any character or give players additional options, instead serving only to cripple certain characters and make SD-ing easier. This is not the case with any other Omega.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I was going to ask a question here, but instead came to my own answer here by talking it out. So yay!

For the stage testing tournament, I am going to be removing Big Battlefield, Woolly World, and Coliseum. I have already banned other possible testing pics because we already have proof they are busted, it is wrong of me to not do the same here. Any TO I have managed to get in contact with that ran Big Battlefield had issues on matches going to time and the size being abused, Woolly World has more then be shown to be too powerful a counterpick in our first edition of the event (even with its issues I got lots of complaints) as well as first hand witnessing matches there that were simply unplayable, and Coliseum suffers like Bridge of Eldin did, even if you take the match seriously the stage is so big the matches always seem to go close to time, or walk offs make stocks fly by.

I wanted to be thorough and test everything, but these stages have had testing elsewhere with negative results already. Testing them further will just make the remaining stages get less love as folks abuse these obviously abusable stages.

I still needed to maintain an odd number however. Looking through the poll results the only other stage remotely close to popular enough to test was Port Town Aero Dive (which was somewhat near Norfair) so rather then have run away tactics abused, let's see if this once legal Brawl stage should actually have a shot.

 

[Piford]

If we make a recommended stage list, we should provide detailed reasoning on why every stage is banned or isn't banned (and a few that are possibly in the grey zone still). If a stage is legal but people commonly cite issues with it (temporary walk-offs come to mind) then we should address why those aren't issues with are reasoning. We also shouldn't just have any stage that "explains itself;" we should say why Battlefield is a good stage or why Great Cave Offensive is a bad one.

 

[smashmachine]

In that case it's even worse since it'd be even easier to run away.

I think this is as good a time as any to figure this out. After the 20th I want us all in here to sit down and make a recommended stagelist together. Something so whenever I or anyone sees a tournament with odd stagelists we can go "hey this is reccomended by everyone discussing stages on smashboards" and we'll all be good with it. Sound good?

well you could cut stock and time

on that note why was Melee 4 stocks in the first place (or 64 5 stocks)

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Perhaps banning vanilla Lylat Cruise is pushing it, but Omega Lylat Cruise should either be banned or considered separate from the other Omegas.The reason I feel this way is because the issue with Omega Lylat Cruise is a matter of controls holding specific characters back rather than any mechanic-related things. Take any character that has an up special that sends them in the direction they press (Zelda, Fox, etc). In order to sweetspot the ledge, the recovery must be aimed with absolute precision due to the small ledge and the low angled underside. In certain situations, the sweetspot direction may lie within the deadzone on the analog stick, so the character has to aim underneath in order to slide up and grab the ledge. However, any but the smallest of movements outside of the dead zone will result in sliding the wrong way because of the angle of the underside, followed by death. You were not killed by your opponent, but instead by the controller and the stage.
The low angled underside does not benefit any character or give players additional options, instead serving only to cripple certain characters and make SD-ing easier. This is not the case with any other Omega.

I can see that. I mean, it's just an FD so its not too big of an issue because we have so many. Personally, since Omegas are CP's, I would keep it, but I'm not really all that opposed to getting rid of it.

well you could cut stock and time

on that note why was Melee 4 stocks in the first place (or 64 5 stocks)

It just fit the games really well. Melee is more suited to 4 Stock with its speed and explosiveness, and 64, iirc, 5 stocks because of its insane combo game. There are so many 0-Deaths in 64.

 

[Dazzap]

http://puu.sh/dt3op/00bb7218e5.webm

I just wanted to show that Skyloft is capable of doing this.

Oh. nuts. Didn't know that.

 

[Uniit]

I pretty like the idea of making a huge poll, preceded by an explanation of each stage.

The reson behind the explanation are that often stage are not well known. How often people tend to ban Wuhu Island because of this never-happening glitch, or praise Pilot Wings without knowing this stage have hard issues on camping ?

After reading this explanation, people may vote for each stage on their legality. With this poll, we can sort stage based on legality percentage, and letting TO's and people deciding what stage list are they going to run.

But i'm sure aware that this is not a miracle solution, as popularity etc would make some stage "more legal" that other. But keep in mind that this is (or would be) the community's opinion based on the actual stages knowledge. It could be a start.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Uniit I kinda did that on /r/smashbros and it got over 400 votes. The results are a bit back in this thread even.

 

[Uniit]

Seems that i overlooked the result post back in, my bad. But in fact i can surely make some complaints :
- No real stage explanation were given (or it did ? I may not looked everywhere / we can see stage like Wuhu Island being below Big Battlefield)
- The question asked was starter/CP/banned, instead of legal/not legal.

So, based on the result, taking assumption that starter+CP = legal, we have the list :

1 Smashville
2 Battlefield
3 Final Destination
4 Town and City
5 Lylat Cruise
6 Kongo Jungle 64
7 Delfino Plaza
8 Halberd
9 Duck Hunt
10 Skyloft
11 Castle Siege
12 Pokemon Stadium 2
13 Big Battlefield
14 Mario Circuit (Wii U)
15 Wuhu Island
16 Windy Hill Zone
17 Luigi's Mansion
18 Pilotwings
19 Skyworld
20 Wooly World
21 Coliseum
22 Wii Fit Studio
23 Norfair
24 Orbital Gate Assault
25 Kalos Pokemon League
26 Mushroom Kingdom U​

​

While we can probably run this another time and get some more accurate results (i'm looking at you big battlefield), I do think it's a good base, espacially for the FLSS selection method, despite the fact that i don't like some stage like Skyloft or Pokémon Stadium 2.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Uniit I'd love to have asked whether legal or banned, but the majority of the smash community would have kerploded and asked where the counterpick option was. Besides, it is good to know which stages people find more questionable and put into a "counterpick" status either way, lets us know how they feel.

Also, a lot of those stages have no place in competitive play. When you ask every single person ever about stages you're going to get weird results. I will have another smaller poll with all the currently legal stages we run (minus any that were like 100% legal) plus all of the ones tested Saturday as well and we can see the results. It should be able to start discussion for sure.